@Havam, the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is not the I Win Button you make it out to be. Surely it is good. But the Fleet Patrol Escort is seemingly on par with the Attack Ship, give or take a few minor disadvantages. ( Click Here )
I have one, and yes it is, the turn rate makes quite a difference, and the extra crew on the Fleet patrol...who cares. In any case its just one piece of the puzzle how tac escorts lost the need for eng healers on their team, which was my point why tac>>>>>>>>>all else atm
When you read this be thinking BUFF sci... and likely Engi.... DO NOT think nerf tac.
I love my escorts... but its nice to make the other ships work as well.
A nerf would pigeon hole tacs into one ship.
Sci works very well in an escort.... Sci works very well in a cruiser... cause sensor scan and subnuke work no matter the ship.
Sci skills NEED a buff....
Another thing that perhaps needs to happen is Sci Captain Skills need a buff...
Engi is even more pathetic really IMO... healing is strong enough right now that having the engi backup oh no buttons on your healer isn't really all that important... so running another sci in a cruiser for subnuke... or another tac in a cruiser for more dmg is a better way to go....
Consider thinking about new Doffs to offset some of these issues as well... You guys did a sensor scan doff... perhaps its time to expand on that idea.
Mai Kai suggested added a enemy debuff to dampening field... perhaps something like that could be added through doffs ?
IMO I think something like photo fleet could be deleted and replaced with a Sci Boost ability... that would increase for a period of time Sci Effect... No one seriously likes photo fleet anyway... and the reduction of spam would be appreciated by many. Making a replacment boost sci kills in a real way would be a boon for Sci Sci.
That would be nerf to torpedoes / spike dmg. Why not fix science captains instead finding options how to TRIBBLE tactical captains ? Or why not get rid of captain classes and let everyone pick one of three choices at each rank.
Note to other readers, this is RE: making tac buffs tied to weapon power
I would absolutely like to fix sci abilities, instead - I just brought this idea up because mostly it isn't actually a nerf to tac. it's only a nerf to torps if it ALSO goes with low weapons power... Ie highaux, which is generally the whole tacs in science ships this thread is about. Heck you could tie it to actual power, make them better at 125 but susceptible to power drain.
As for reducing spike damage... No, it really doesn't. If you don't have max weapon power while trying your spike damage thing, you are being entirely odd.
Honestly, if wouldn't have much effect on good players anyway, remember sci officers in escorts have sensor scan scale with aux too, and it's not hard to switch briefly to get the buff to full power. But then as previously noted, good players also get huge returns from SNB.
It also heavily affects Brel fits... Having never flown it I can only guess but it seems like ONLY tac abilities function under a regular cloak anyway, so if it turns out to smash that you can compensate by buffing the ship and open it up for sci/eng captains? AGAIN I have never flown the Brel so that may make no sense in reality, but hopefully it does.
I am curious what Borticus thinks of the conversation - is there a dev/systems thought. I understand it's dangerous to post in these threads but the benefits outweigh the incoming snowballs!
I am curious what Borticus thinks of the conversation - is there a dev/systems thought. I understand it's dangerous to post in these threads but the benefits outweigh the incoming snowballs!
He stated he is watching this thread with interest. and im actually glad he hasnt stated his opinion on it. that would then lead to much anger/concern about why he thinks a specific way is the way etc etc.
i'm also thinking of posting a thread on what i think can be done to boost science (captains, ships, bridge officer powers) without makeing it for other captain types to perform better at everything in them then the science captains themselves.
He stated he is watching this thread with interest. and im actually glad he hasnt stated his opinion on it. that would then lead to much anger/concern about why he thinks a specific way is the way etc etc.
i'm also thinking of posting a thread on what i think can be done to boost science (captains, ships, bridge officer powers) without makeing it for other captain types to perform better at everything in them then the science captains themselves.
(in details maybe even)
i understand that sci/sci is your pet peeve. Problem is the rebalance will have to look at all ship classes, and career types. What about Eng/sci or Enc/scort. Quite frankly Sci does well in cruiser or escort, but isn't the best in an sci boat. Eng sucks at anything but healboat. as far as ships goes, sci ships are top priority. But when player classes are concerned Eng seems in more dire need of attention.
What about DEM/Aceton and all the other fail Eng skills. Tac's are better at using those too. EWP recieves tac buffs but squad from any single eng cpt skill!!
While we're at it, how about that new background tech Bort, or the new map getting ready for release in S9? Sci fix scheduled for S12, pretty please?
i understand that sci/sci is your pet peeve. Problem is the rebalance will have to look at all ship classes, and career types. What about Eng/sci or Enc/scort. Quite frankly Sci does well in cruiser or escort, but isn't the best in an sci boat. Eng sucks at anything but healboat. as far as ships goes, sci ships are top priority. But when player classes are concerned Eng seems in more dire need of attention.
What about DEM/Aceton and all the other fail Eng skills. Tac's are better at using those too. EWP recieves tac buffs but squad from any single eng cpt skill!!
While we're at it, how about that new background tech Bort, or the new map getting ready for release in S9? Sci fix scheduled for S12, pretty please?
The difference is that Engineers add huge healing/survivability to any ship they are in (sci included) while Science captains add almost nothing to cruiser/esc/sci with the exception of subnuke and that is only good for PVP...
The difference is that Engineers add huge healing/survivability to any ship they are in (sci included) while Science captains add almost nothing to cruiser/esc/sci with the exception of subnuke and that is only good for PVP...
Sensor Scan is still the best debuff in the game. In PvP a Good Sensor scan is the difference between a kill and someone living long enough to get another round of heals up...
In PvE... sensor scanning anything that is under team focus fire is awsome sauce.
Engi Gets what ? They can give there EPS transfer to the nearest Tac Escort to make most of it.
Engi Gets what ? They can give there EPS transfer to the nearest Tac Escort to make most of it.
Or they can use EPS to buff their own damage, or Nadion. And they get a free oh-$hit button in MW, and a free EPtoS3 from RSP. Sure, it's not APA and GDF, but it's something
The difference is that Engineers add huge healing/survivability to any ship they are in (sci included) while Science captains add almost nothing to cruiser/esc/sci with the exception of subnuke and that is only good for PVP...
and surviving the borg gate 10s longer makes you complete the mission how? In theory the add time increase pressure DPS, yet i doubt that an escort breaking combat and coming back looses much
Or they can use EPS to buff their own damage, or Nadion. And they get a free oh-$hit button in MW, and a free EPtoS3 from RSP. Sure, it's not APA and GDF, but it's something
seriously when have you been eps, or nadeon'ed to death? SS + SNB however kills in pve and pvp
Sensor Scan is still the best debuff in the game. In PvP a Good Sensor scan is the difference between a kill and someone living long enough to get another round of heals up...
In PvE... sensor scanning anything that is under team focus fire is awsome sauce.
Engi Gets what ? They can give there EPS transfer to the nearest Tac Escort to make most of it.
pretty much this, maybe the fix for science is to give SNB to tacs as well /sarcasm off
even in a BO3 setup, Nadeon is far from what it used to be, i ll take SS/SNB any day over Nadeon/EPS
There has been a prevailance in tacitcal officers using sci ships recently, I remember last year any serious competitive PVP team were very dismissive of them. Now that sci has been nerfed they seem to be getting quite alot of attention. Nothing about a tac in a sci ship has changed. The Sci/Sci has been the issue and nerfing a tac sci ship wont fix the communities general concern about sci captains. This will also make tac in a sci ship not really worth playing and will cripple a a good playstyle combo. Fix the real problem and not band aid it by handicapping something else. To summarize the sci ship was made useless this year and tactical officers salavaged them and made them useful. Mai Kai as well as all the other dedicated and very good sci captains have steam coming out of their ears and rightfully so. But the potential tidal wave of hate against tacs in sci ships is unfound especially to the ones who have been playing them forever. Much love to Mai Kai and the sci guys but the energy should be focused on fixing the sci problem in general
There has been a prevailance in tacitcal officers using sci ships recently, I remember last year any serious competitive PVP team were very dismissive of them. Now that sci has been nerfed they seem to be getting quite alot of attention. Nothing about a tac in a sci ship has changed. The Sci/Sci has been the issue and nerfing a tac sci ship wont fix the communities general concern about sci captains. This will also make tac in a sci ship not really worth playing and will cripple a a good playstyle combo. Fix the real problem and not band aid it by handicapping something else. To summarize the sci ship was made useless this year and tactical officers salavaged them and made them useful. Mai Kai as well as all the other dedicated and very good sci captains have steam coming out of their ears and rightfully so. But the potential tidal wave of hate against tacs in sci ships is unfound especially to the ones who have been playing them forever. Much love to Mai Kai and the sci guys but the energy should be focused on fixing the sci problem in general
I think some of what we're seeing and discussing is a symptom of a bigger problem:
STO space war has 3 distinct facets. Damage, healing, CrowdControl. This is reflected in the 3 captain types, as well as the 3 ship types.
To succeed in STO however, is almost completely about damage. Do high damage is the primary condition to win. PvE and PvP. Tac captains and Escorts do this best. The second criteria is healing (almost as important as damage in PvP... almost). The eng captain and cruiser do this best. Now CC... has been pretty much forgotten. Science is thus the weakest of the 3 facets, both in captains and in ships.
This is felt very well in a sci/sci combo, where you get a captain that's not optimal, in a ship with abilities that are not optimal for the task at hand. Science overall has to get stronger!
Tac/sci - will always rely on maximizing the captain abilities to deal damage.
Sci/esc - will always build around the ships ability to deal damage
Tac/exc - Will try to maximize ship and captains damage potential
sci/sci - will... ehm... build everything around SNB?
you see? The biggest advantage has to be maximized on, and the biggest advantage is always about dealing more damage. (almost always) Because science is just weaksauce.
Tac/sci - will always rely on maximizing the captain abilities to deal damage.
Sci/esc - will always build around the ships ability to deal damage
Tac/exc - Will try to maximize ship and captains damage potential
sci/sci - will... ehm... build everything around SNB?
you see? The biggest advantage has to be maximized on, and the biggest advantage is always about dealing more damage. (almost always) Because science is just weaksauce.
agreed but to complete the picture
Eng/scort some spike every 3min from nadeon and BO, miss a lot, has MW
Tac/scor go go crash boom, survivability or engs scort does not match the lack of dmg or spike
Eng/cruiser: heal me zombie heal
Tac/cruiser: lol ok go hom
Tac:sci; go go crash boom some cc, meh
Eng:sci: heal some, cc, some just enough to make your own team not warp out
sci ships need a balnace pass, but sci/scort>eng/scort i feel that sci/sci>eng/sci most of the time but what are everybody elses feelings? (eng/cruiser>sci/cruiser
I have no real problem with Tactical powers boosting science powers.
I have a problem with the lack of benefits Science as Career brings to Science Vessels. There seems to be no real synergy between Science Captain and Science Vessel. The best synergy can be achieved with SNB and Escort - but even then, SNB without something bringing out all the Tactical Captain buffs to improve the Escort's damage is not that impressive either.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
i would support you just to TRIBBLE off the pve'rs but i firmly believe that tactical captain powers shouldnt increase science damage powers.
tactical captains make the most of weapons! not fancy gimmiks and tricks. in a science vessel theyd still be able to out damage a science captain in a science vessel. just not with the science powers.
i would support you just to TRIBBLE off the pve'rs but i firmly believe that tactical captain powers shouldnt increase science damage powers.
tactical captains make the most of weapons! not fancy gimmiks and tricks. in a science vessel theyd still be able to out damage a science captain in a science vessel. just not with the science powers.
im trying to make the case that they shouldn't be nerfed, but sci captains should get a better synergy. tac captains have a synergy with all energy and kinetic damage. science needs a synergy with drain damage that is only defended by insulators. engenders need... well i guess synergy with heals, less cooldown or double the effect from hull repair skill or something. the other 2 are below the tacs level, alone. scis are of course great to have in teams of course. if you can agree with that, post about it.
we need to get to point in this game where there are viable ships options among all three types for every class. I m tired of leaving my mains at home, because you ain't much if you ain't tac.
When it is no longer a concern if a 5 man team has 3 of any class, we're good. Eng are still in most need of some love. But i m starting to loose faith in systems ability to come up with a solution and my patience is running thin.
SO time to bring the nerf bat to the tac, sorry that tac/sci combo will no longer be as much fun, welcome in the club. Eng/sci, SCi/sci, Eng/cruiser, Sci/cruiser haven't really been for while now either.
captain types are silly. everyone is in the command division, regardless if they were a doctor or plasma conduit scrubber when you get your ship. you are placed in the command/tactical division. make SNB a commander level sci skill and make miracle worker a commander level self heal, and make everyone a tac captain.
ether that or go to a lot of trouble overhawling eng, and sci a bit, or nerf tac to the ground so the type of captain you are barely maters and they all suck in their own way. decisions decisions.
im trying to make the case that they shouldn't be nerfed, but sci captains should get a better synergy. tac captains have a synergy with all energy and kinetic damage. science needs a synergy with drain damage that is only defended by insulators. engenders need... well i guess synergy with heals, less cooldown or double the effect from hull repair skill or something. the other 2 are below the tacs level, alone. scis are of course great to have in teams of course. if you can agree with that, post about it.
i dont disagree that tac captains have synergy with doing damage. but not with science powers. science captains have no synergy with any of the ships, engineerings turn any ship theyre in into a better tank and tactical turns any of their ships into damage monsters. the cruiser and the escort that damage is by way of WEAPONS damage. why is it that when flying a science ship they should be able to get the extra damage from weapons and science powers?
Because without that ability, Tac in sci ships Suck TRIBBLE. There's a reason they vanished after they removed tac boosted sci skills Mai the first time.
Also, why shouldn't he be able to? he ranked the skill too. I mean seriously, from an in game universe standpoint, he's done as much research as the sci has in how to apply advanced theory to have the ship create anomalies etc efficiently and effectively. Now why wouldn't he know how to best apply those same theories, in the most damaging way possible? (tac boosting)
And why can't the sci, know how to better afflict the enemy ship with negative status effects?
And why doesn't the Engineer know how to best effect repairs to ships? Because right now? Engineer Captains Suck, not by a little, but by ALOT. I would much rather have a sci cruiser right now than an Eng Cruiser for healing duties, they suck so hard thanks to all the new super healing doffs we have in pvp.
i would support you just to TRIBBLE off the pve'rs but i firmly believe that tactical captain powers shouldnt increase science damage powers.
tactical captains make the most of weapons! not fancy gimmiks and tricks. in a science vessel theyd still be able to out damage a science captain in a science vessel. just not with the science powers.
So, does that mean Sensor Scan shouldn't work on weapons?
Subnucleonic Beam not be availlable on Cruisers, BoPs, Carriers or Escorts, only SVs?
Miracle Worker only work on Cruisers?
Every Captain abilty works with every Ship type, why should that be changed?
And changed selectively, at that?
Tacticals should out dmg sci captains in any ship... they should out dmg them with weapons... and skills that create dmg.
Tactical Captains get NOTHING else. They don't get AOE dmg reducing fields... they don't get spam fleets... they don't get massive insta debuff skills that increase an entire teams dmg.
They most importantly to PvP don't get the ship ender the Sub NUKE.
Yes tacticals do more dmg in general... and with the way healing is setup in this game... the sci doing 5/8s the dmg will still get more kills..... REAL KILLS, everyone by know should understand how the score board works... that sci ship with 3-5 kills is a lie we all know it.
You people need to ask yourselves, what you are more interested in in PvP....
Scoreboard numbers...
Or
Real Kills....
Cause I hate to break it to people.... Tacs do more scoreboard in a sci ship... Sci add something of real value to them flying them as they should be.... yes they don't do as much dmg... but lets be honest tacticals in sci ships don't show up in serious games do they. Why is that... cause its a pug build. It kills noobs... to kill real players you need tacticals in real dmg ships... and you need sci in a real sci ship controling... and debuffing.
It's not just the Sci/Sci's ability to deliver damage that we are worried about here. A sci should, primarily, be doing CC. There are very few powers that can still accomplish this in any meaningful way, against other players (some don't work against NPC's either).
We all know the list of broken/underpowered sci boff abilities, many of those used to be our bread and butter, now they do nothing.
Damage has always been secondary to a good sci captain in a sci ship, as it should be. Now, you have to do some damage to justify being there at all.
What we really need is for sci boff abilities to be balanced against resists or vice-versa, so that they don't become utterly useless when attacking a hardened/resisted target. No, they shouldn't do as much as they would against a target with no resists, but you should be able to see a shield facing or 4 budge when you used a FULLY-SPEC'd CPB.
It's not just the Sci/Sci's ability to deliver damage that we are worried about here. A sci should, primarily, be doing CC. There are very few powers that can still accomplish this in any meaningful way, against other players (some don't work against NPC's either).
We all know the list of broken/underpowered sci boff abilities, many of those used to be our bread and butter, now they do nothing.
Damage has always been secondary to a good sci captain in a sci ship, as it should be. Now, you have to do some damage to justify being there at all.
What we really need is for sci boff abilities to be balanced against resists or vice-versa, so that they don't become utterly useless when attacking a hardened/resisted target. No, they shouldn't do as much as they would against a target with no resists, but you should be able to see a shield facing or 4 budge when you used a FULLY-SPEC'd CPB.
Currently
resists > fully spec'd offensive/cc abilities
That's wrong.
So Tacs should be able to be awesome in all ships, and we sci's should be happy with one role. Give me a break.
I'm a sci with 9 points in particle generators and subspace decompiler. I skilled my character for PSW, and it sucks now. That is the problem.
Sci ships are slow, they only have 3 fore and aft weapons AND our abilities are nerfed.
Tacticals should out dmg sci captains in any ship... they should out dmg them with weapons... and skills that create dmg.
Tactical Captains get NOTHING else. They don't get AOE dmg reducing fields... they don't get spam fleets... they don't get massive insta debuff skills that increase an entire teams dmg.
They most importantly to PvP don't get the ship ender the Sub NUKE.
Yes tacticals do more dmg in general... and with the way healing is setup in this game... the sci doing 5/8s the dmg will still get more kills..... REAL KILLS, everyone by know should understand how the score board works... that sci ship with 3-5 kills is a lie we all know it.
You people need to ask yourselves, what you are more interested in in PvP....
Scoreboard numbers...
Or
Real Kills....
Cause I hate to break it to people.... Tacs do more scoreboard in a sci ship... Sci add something of real value to them flying them as they should be.... yes they don't do as much dmg... but lets be honest tacticals in sci ships don't show up in serious games do they. Why is that... cause its a pug build. It kills noobs... to kill real players you need tacticals in real dmg ships... and you need sci in a real sci ship controling... and debuffing.
and when you stick a tactical captain in a sci ship, the tactical captain will still be out damageing the science because the tactical will be boosting the weapons damage.
i wish i could argue my point better. all i hear is that "tacticals should out damage everything in anything" sure ok. i get that. and if they cant boost science damage powers they;d still be out damageing eveyrthing because everything has weapons. they'd just do it best in an in escort.
even if science captains did get fixed and made super beyond powerfully awesome in science ships. thats all they'd be good in. because other ships cant take enough/high level science control powers to make up that difference, while tacticals get weapons with eveyrthing they fly. and engineers get to survive longer in everything they fly.
So, does that mean Sensor Scan shouldn't work on weapons?
Subnucleonic Beam not be availlable on Cruisers, BoPs, Carriers or Escorts, only SVs?
Miracle Worker only work on Cruisers?
Every Captain abilty works with every Ship type, why should that be changed?
And changed selectively, at that?
yes. i do think sensor scan shouldnt work with weapons damage and only increase science damage.
you're blowing it out of proportons from what i'm suggesting. im not saying that tactical powers shouldnt work at all just that it should only increase weapons damage. and since every ship has weapons his powers will still greatly enhance anything he flys. its not selectivly picking and choosing. all his powers would still work, so he'd still be viable. just not as they currently are.
this is proportantly imbalanced between the 3 captains types.
and when you stick a tactical captain in a sci ship, the tactical captain will still be out damageing the science because the tactical will be boosting the weapons damage.
i wish i could argue my point better. all i hear is that "tacticals should out damage everything in anything" sure ok. i get that. and if they cant boost science damage powers they;d still be out damageing eveyrthing because everything has weapons. they'd just do it best in an in escort.
even if science captains did get fixed and made super beyond powerfully awesome in science ships. thats all they'd be good in. because other ships cant take enough/high level science control powers to make up that difference, while tacticals get weapons with eveyrthing they fly. and engineers get to survive longer in everything they fly.
science captains dealing science damage with science abilities is not the point. its the other effect the ability has to push, pull, befuddle and stun. the only exception would be the ability to strip shields, that can be thought of as dealing damage. to bad thats not an option right now. its that effect other then damage that sets up kills when all the damage and all the healing in the world simply cancel each other out. the tac/sci just dealing damage with little or no cc is just for pug stomping fun like husanakx said. out side of premades situations the sci sci has little purpose, but it seems to be the only thing that can break a deadlock in my experience.
the tac/sci just dealing damage with little or no cc is just for pug stomping fun like husanakx said. out side of premades situations the sci sci has little purpose, but it seems to be the only thing that can break a deadlock in my experience.
yeah.. and who pugs anyway?
in STO we all fly premade!
am I much off if I say 95% of all matches in STO have at least 1 PUG team?
am I wrong in saying that a fresh outta PvE sci-captain have crappy captain abilities when he tries his hand in PvP?
am I at fault for wanting the sci captain to play a role also outside of premades? (or maybe even outside of PvP?)
science captains dealing science damage with science abilities is not the point. its the other effect the ability has to push, pull, befuddle and stun. the only exception would be the ability to strip shields, that can be thought of as dealing damage. to bad thats not an option right now. its that effect other then damage that sets up kills when all the damage and all the healing in the world simply cancel each other out. the tac/sci just dealing damage with little or no cc is just for pug stomping fun like husanakx said. out side of premades situations the sci sci has little purpose, but it seems to be the only thing that can break a deadlock in my experience.
then imagine how insanely powerful the tactical captain will be when they do fix science powers.
if science powers were fixed tomorrow, science captains still cant do **** with them.
tactical captains then would gain all the crowd control AND the un-needed extra damage from the science powers.
am I much off if I say 95% of all matches in STO have at least 1 PUG team?
am I wrong in saying that a fresh outta PvE sci-captain have crappy captain abilities when he tries his hand in PvP?
am I at fault for wanting the sci captain to play a role also outside of premades? (or maybe even outside of PvP?)
Sure, the sci-sci has a role in a premade....
i pug, at least 95% of the time im not on a team with any sort of advanced coordination. i think its to bad sci sci has no real purpose outside of high level matches, but really i don't see one. at least sci/sci has a place, a limited but important place. if you want to log in and have fun nothing works better then a tac captain in any ship though.
then imagine how insanely powerful the tactical captain will be when they do fix science powers.
if science powers were fixed tomorrow, science captains still cant do **** with them.
tactical captains then would gain all the crowd control AND the un-needed extra damage from the science powers.
oh i dont think 'fixed' science powers would do a whole lot to make a tac/sci more dangerous in its limited pub stomping role. what would fixed sci powers look like?
vm- tac has no effect on it, and its actually an effective power at ruining someones day. its counter is generally on cooldown due to tt. proboly doesn't need changing.
CPB/TachB- these deal drain damage that tac powers have no effect on, it ignores conventional resistance and is buffed by flow cap and resisted by insulators. tacs would have no advantage from this getting buffed out of being worthless.
PSW- to a sci/sci it would be the stun thats important, unless shield striping worked then the damage it causes might mater to sci cpatains again. but its really the sci's job to arrange the setup. tacs would benefit from this if it was buffed back to its old 'bugged' self. a sci/sci isn't really meant to be a surgical striker but it can still deal damage with this, wile not giving up all its important captain powers at the same time
FBP/TBR- these are what tacs use for damage dealing, for sci they are more useful as a deterrent and a ball of healing disruptor, with push and not damage being the point. these 2 powers don't need fixing imo, or normal tracter beam
rift- tac might effect the tiny damage it deals, but its basically irreverent ether way. with doffs it seems like it can drain you dry some how. a more reliable middle ground for this is needed.
grav well- i suppose tac buff can make the damage on this pretty strong, but to a sci sci it would be the pull that would be most important for anyone else with tric mines, iso, CRF, warp plasma, stuff like that. it really just needs to pull like it used to, regardless of who thinks its uncanon. its not like any hero ship got sucked into a black hole, thiers no canon violating aspect of that great pull it used to have.
fixed sci to me doesn't really sound like something that will just benefit tac captains, it will simply give sci captains all the old options they had back and be more effective in a general and pub sense.
Comments
yup, especially the parts in red
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Note to other readers, this is RE: making tac buffs tied to weapon power
I would absolutely like to fix sci abilities, instead - I just brought this idea up because mostly it isn't actually a nerf to tac. it's only a nerf to torps if it ALSO goes with low weapons power... Ie highaux, which is generally the whole tacs in science ships this thread is about. Heck you could tie it to actual power, make them better at 125 but susceptible to power drain.
As for reducing spike damage... No, it really doesn't. If you don't have max weapon power while trying your spike damage thing, you are being entirely odd.
Honestly, if wouldn't have much effect on good players anyway, remember sci officers in escorts have sensor scan scale with aux too, and it's not hard to switch briefly to get the buff to full power. But then as previously noted, good players also get huge returns from SNB.
It also heavily affects Brel fits... Having never flown it I can only guess but it seems like ONLY tac abilities function under a regular cloak anyway, so if it turns out to smash that you can compensate by buffing the ship and open it up for sci/eng captains? AGAIN I have never flown the Brel so that may make no sense in reality, but hopefully it does.
He stated he is watching this thread with interest. and im actually glad he hasnt stated his opinion on it. that would then lead to much anger/concern about why he thinks a specific way is the way etc etc.
i'm also thinking of posting a thread on what i think can be done to boost science (captains, ships, bridge officer powers) without makeing it for other captain types to perform better at everything in them then the science captains themselves.
(in details maybe even)
i understand that sci/sci is your pet peeve. Problem is the rebalance will have to look at all ship classes, and career types. What about Eng/sci or Enc/scort. Quite frankly Sci does well in cruiser or escort, but isn't the best in an sci boat. Eng sucks at anything but healboat. as far as ships goes, sci ships are top priority. But when player classes are concerned Eng seems in more dire need of attention.
What about DEM/Aceton and all the other fail Eng skills. Tac's are better at using those too. EWP recieves tac buffs but squad from any single eng cpt skill!!
While we're at it, how about that new background tech Bort, or the new map getting ready for release in S9? Sci fix scheduled for S12, pretty please?
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
The difference is that Engineers add huge healing/survivability to any ship they are in (sci included) while Science captains add almost nothing to cruiser/esc/sci with the exception of subnuke and that is only good for PVP...
Sensor Scan is still the best debuff in the game. In PvP a Good Sensor scan is the difference between a kill and someone living long enough to get another round of heals up...
In PvE... sensor scanning anything that is under team focus fire is awsome sauce.
Engi Gets what ? They can give there EPS transfer to the nearest Tac Escort to make most of it.
Or they can use EPS to buff their own damage, or Nadion. And they get a free oh-$hit button in MW, and a free EPtoS3 from RSP. Sure, it's not APA and GDF, but it's something
and surviving the borg gate 10s longer makes you complete the mission how? In theory the add time increase pressure DPS, yet i doubt that an escort breaking combat and coming back looses much
seriously when have you been eps, or nadeon'ed to death? SS + SNB however kills in pve and pvp
pretty much this, maybe the fix for science is to give SNB to tacs as well /sarcasm off
even in a BO3 setup, Nadeon is far from what it used to be, i ll take SS/SNB any day over Nadeon/EPS
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I think some of what we're seeing and discussing is a symptom of a bigger problem:
STO space war has 3 distinct facets. Damage, healing, CrowdControl. This is reflected in the 3 captain types, as well as the 3 ship types.
To succeed in STO however, is almost completely about damage. Do high damage is the primary condition to win. PvE and PvP. Tac captains and Escorts do this best. The second criteria is healing (almost as important as damage in PvP... almost). The eng captain and cruiser do this best. Now CC... has been pretty much forgotten. Science is thus the weakest of the 3 facets, both in captains and in ships.
This is felt very well in a sci/sci combo, where you get a captain that's not optimal, in a ship with abilities that are not optimal for the task at hand. Science overall has to get stronger!
Tac/sci - will always rely on maximizing the captain abilities to deal damage.
Sci/esc - will always build around the ships ability to deal damage
Tac/exc - Will try to maximize ship and captains damage potential
sci/sci - will... ehm... build everything around SNB?
you see? The biggest advantage has to be maximized on, and the biggest advantage is always about dealing more damage. (almost always) Because science is just weaksauce.
agreed but to complete the picture
Eng/scort some spike every 3min from nadeon and BO, miss a lot, has MW
Tac/scor go go crash boom, survivability or engs scort does not match the lack of dmg or spike
Eng/cruiser: heal me zombie heal
Tac/cruiser: lol ok go hom
Tac:sci; go go crash boom some cc, meh
Eng:sci: heal some, cc, some just enough to make your own team not warp out
sci ships need a balnace pass, but sci/scort>eng/scort i feel that sci/sci>eng/sci most of the time but what are everybody elses feelings? (eng/cruiser>sci/cruiser
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I have a problem with the lack of benefits Science as Career brings to Science Vessels. There seems to be no real synergy between Science Captain and Science Vessel. The best synergy can be achieved with SNB and Escort - but even then, SNB without something bringing out all the Tactical Captain buffs to improve the Escort's damage is not that impressive either.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=374211
good luck in there lol.
i would support you just to TRIBBLE off the pve'rs but i firmly believe that tactical captain powers shouldnt increase science damage powers.
tactical captains make the most of weapons! not fancy gimmiks and tricks. in a science vessel theyd still be able to out damage a science captain in a science vessel. just not with the science powers.
im trying to make the case that they shouldn't be nerfed, but sci captains should get a better synergy. tac captains have a synergy with all energy and kinetic damage. science needs a synergy with drain damage that is only defended by insulators. engenders need... well i guess synergy with heals, less cooldown or double the effect from hull repair skill or something. the other 2 are below the tacs level, alone. scis are of course great to have in teams of course. if you can agree with that, post about it.
When it is no longer a concern if a 5 man team has 3 of any class, we're good. Eng are still in most need of some love. But i m starting to loose faith in systems ability to come up with a solution and my patience is running thin.
SO time to bring the nerf bat to the tac, sorry that tac/sci combo will no longer be as much fun, welcome in the club. Eng/sci, SCi/sci, Eng/cruiser, Sci/cruiser haven't really been for while now either.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
ether that or go to a lot of trouble overhawling eng, and sci a bit, or nerf tac to the ground so the type of captain you are barely maters and they all suck in their own way. decisions decisions.
i dont disagree that tac captains have synergy with doing damage. but not with science powers. science captains have no synergy with any of the ships, engineerings turn any ship theyre in into a better tank and tactical turns any of their ships into damage monsters. the cruiser and the escort that damage is by way of WEAPONS damage. why is it that when flying a science ship they should be able to get the extra damage from weapons and science powers?
Also, why shouldn't he be able to? he ranked the skill too. I mean seriously, from an in game universe standpoint, he's done as much research as the sci has in how to apply advanced theory to have the ship create anomalies etc efficiently and effectively. Now why wouldn't he know how to best apply those same theories, in the most damaging way possible? (tac boosting)
And why can't the sci, know how to better afflict the enemy ship with negative status effects?
And why doesn't the Engineer know how to best effect repairs to ships? Because right now? Engineer Captains Suck, not by a little, but by ALOT. I would much rather have a sci cruiser right now than an Eng Cruiser for healing duties, they suck so hard thanks to all the new super healing doffs we have in pvp.
So, does that mean Sensor Scan shouldn't work on weapons?
Subnucleonic Beam not be availlable on Cruisers, BoPs, Carriers or Escorts, only SVs?
Miracle Worker only work on Cruisers?
Every Captain abilty works with every Ship type, why should that be changed?
And changed selectively, at that?
Tactical Captains get NOTHING else. They don't get AOE dmg reducing fields... they don't get spam fleets... they don't get massive insta debuff skills that increase an entire teams dmg.
They most importantly to PvP don't get the ship ender the Sub NUKE.
Yes tacticals do more dmg in general... and with the way healing is setup in this game... the sci doing 5/8s the dmg will still get more kills..... REAL KILLS, everyone by know should understand how the score board works... that sci ship with 3-5 kills is a lie we all know it.
You people need to ask yourselves, what you are more interested in in PvP....
Scoreboard numbers...
Or
Real Kills....
Cause I hate to break it to people.... Tacs do more scoreboard in a sci ship... Sci add something of real value to them flying them as they should be.... yes they don't do as much dmg... but lets be honest tacticals in sci ships don't show up in serious games do they. Why is that... cause its a pug build. It kills noobs... to kill real players you need tacticals in real dmg ships... and you need sci in a real sci ship controling... and debuffing.
We all know the list of broken/underpowered sci boff abilities, many of those used to be our bread and butter, now they do nothing.
Damage has always been secondary to a good sci captain in a sci ship, as it should be. Now, you have to do some damage to justify being there at all.
What we really need is for sci boff abilities to be balanced against resists or vice-versa, so that they don't become utterly useless when attacking a hardened/resisted target. No, they shouldn't do as much as they would against a target with no resists, but you should be able to see a shield facing or 4 budge when you used a FULLY-SPEC'd CPB.
Currently
resists > fully spec'd offensive/cc abilities
That's wrong.
So Tacs should be able to be awesome in all ships, and we sci's should be happy with one role. Give me a break.
I'm a sci with 9 points in particle generators and subspace decompiler. I skilled my character for PSW, and it sucks now. That is the problem.
Sci ships are slow, they only have 3 fore and aft weapons AND our abilities are nerfed.
NERF TAC.
and when you stick a tactical captain in a sci ship, the tactical captain will still be out damageing the science because the tactical will be boosting the weapons damage.
i wish i could argue my point better. all i hear is that "tacticals should out damage everything in anything" sure ok. i get that. and if they cant boost science damage powers they;d still be out damageing eveyrthing because everything has weapons. they'd just do it best in an in escort.
even if science captains did get fixed and made super beyond powerfully awesome in science ships. thats all they'd be good in. because other ships cant take enough/high level science control powers to make up that difference, while tacticals get weapons with eveyrthing they fly. and engineers get to survive longer in everything they fly.
yes. i do think sensor scan shouldnt work with weapons damage and only increase science damage.
you're blowing it out of proportons from what i'm suggesting. im not saying that tactical powers shouldnt work at all just that it should only increase weapons damage. and since every ship has weapons his powers will still greatly enhance anything he flys. its not selectivly picking and choosing. all his powers would still work, so he'd still be viable. just not as they currently are.
this is proportantly imbalanced between the 3 captains types.
science captains dealing science damage with science abilities is not the point. its the other effect the ability has to push, pull, befuddle and stun. the only exception would be the ability to strip shields, that can be thought of as dealing damage. to bad thats not an option right now. its that effect other then damage that sets up kills when all the damage and all the healing in the world simply cancel each other out. the tac/sci just dealing damage with little or no cc is just for pug stomping fun like husanakx said. out side of premades situations the sci sci has little purpose, but it seems to be the only thing that can break a deadlock in my experience.
yeah.. and who pugs anyway?
in STO we all fly premade!
am I much off if I say 95% of all matches in STO have at least 1 PUG team?
am I wrong in saying that a fresh outta PvE sci-captain have crappy captain abilities when he tries his hand in PvP?
am I at fault for wanting the sci captain to play a role also outside of premades? (or maybe even outside of PvP?)
Sure, the sci-sci has a role in a premade....
then imagine how insanely powerful the tactical captain will be when they do fix science powers.
if science powers were fixed tomorrow, science captains still cant do **** with them.
tactical captains then would gain all the crowd control AND the un-needed extra damage from the science powers.
i pug, at least 95% of the time im not on a team with any sort of advanced coordination. i think its to bad sci sci has no real purpose outside of high level matches, but really i don't see one. at least sci/sci has a place, a limited but important place. if you want to log in and have fun nothing works better then a tac captain in any ship though.
oh i dont think 'fixed' science powers would do a whole lot to make a tac/sci more dangerous in its limited pub stomping role. what would fixed sci powers look like?
vm- tac has no effect on it, and its actually an effective power at ruining someones day. its counter is generally on cooldown due to tt. proboly doesn't need changing.
CPB/TachB- these deal drain damage that tac powers have no effect on, it ignores conventional resistance and is buffed by flow cap and resisted by insulators. tacs would have no advantage from this getting buffed out of being worthless.
PSW- to a sci/sci it would be the stun thats important, unless shield striping worked then the damage it causes might mater to sci cpatains again. but its really the sci's job to arrange the setup. tacs would benefit from this if it was buffed back to its old 'bugged' self. a sci/sci isn't really meant to be a surgical striker but it can still deal damage with this, wile not giving up all its important captain powers at the same time
FBP/TBR- these are what tacs use for damage dealing, for sci they are more useful as a deterrent and a ball of healing disruptor, with push and not damage being the point. these 2 powers don't need fixing imo, or normal tracter beam
rift- tac might effect the tiny damage it deals, but its basically irreverent ether way. with doffs it seems like it can drain you dry some how. a more reliable middle ground for this is needed.
grav well- i suppose tac buff can make the damage on this pretty strong, but to a sci sci it would be the pull that would be most important for anyone else with tric mines, iso, CRF, warp plasma, stuff like that. it really just needs to pull like it used to, regardless of who thinks its uncanon. its not like any hero ship got sucked into a black hole, thiers no canon violating aspect of that great pull it used to have.
fixed sci to me doesn't really sound like something that will just benefit tac captains, it will simply give sci captains all the old options they had back and be more effective in a general and pub sense.