oh i dont think 'fixed' science powers would do a whole lot to make a tac/sci more dangerous in its limited pub stomping role. what would fixed sci powers look like?
vm- tac has no effect on it, and its actually an effective power at ruining someones day. its counter is generally on cooldown due to tt. proboly doesn't need changing.
CPB/TachB- these deal drain damage that tac powers have no effect on, it ignores conventional resistance and is buffed by flow cap and resisted by insulators. tacs would have no advantage from this getting buffed out of being worthless.
PSW- to a sci/sci it would be the stun thats important, unless shield striping worked then the damage it causes might mater to sci cpatains again. but its really the sci's job to arrange the setup. tacs would benefit from this if it was buffed back to its old 'bugged' self. a sci/sci isn't really meant to be a surgical striker but it can still deal damage with this, wile not giving up all its important captain powers at the same time
FBP/TBR- these are what tacs use for damage dealing, for sci they are more useful as a deterrent and a ball of healing disruptor, with push and not damage being the point. these 2 powers don't need fixing imo, or normal tracter beam
rift- tac might effect the tiny damage it deals, but its basically irreverent ether way. with doffs it seems like it can drain you dry some how. a more reliable middle ground for this is needed.
grav well- i suppose tac buff can make the damage on this pretty strong, but to a sci sci it would be the pull that would be most important for anyone else with tric mines, iso, CRF, warp plasma, stuff like that. it really just needs to pull like it used to, regardless of who thinks its uncanon. its not like any hero ship got sucked into a black hole, thiers no canon violating aspect of that great pull it used to have.
fixed sci to me doesn't really sound like something that will just benefit tac captains, it will simply give sci captains all the old options they had back and be more effective in a general and pub sense.
This. The only reason Tacs in Sci ships are better than Sci's in sci ships, right now, is because the majority of viable powers are damage dealing powers (TBR for example).
Make the other powers viable again and the sci/sci will be back.
Look Mai. You're being stupid. Everyone knows it at this point, I'm not convinced you actually want to buff sci captains at all just kick the tacs in the junk so that they go right back to never touching sci ships.
You say "zomg weapon damage zomg zomg zomg" And I say stuff it. Sci ship weapons Suck TRIBBLE for Damage Dealing, especially with the Limited Tac boffs. Tac weapon damage in a sci ship is utterly Pathetic.
You take away tac boosted sci skills and the Tac might as well go back to his Escort. Because he's certainly not going to be generating Kills with Sci Guns. Infact the combo is so laughably bad that even for Pug Duty it's a terrible choice. We had it your way for the better part of a year and a half. And guess what champ, no tacs touched a sci ship outside of a very very select few of us, who were only putting our tacs in sci ships to test for our Sci Scis later.
You boost the CC aspect of sci powers, and then you cry "zomg imagine tacs with the debuff powa!" And guess what, there chump, a tac going for the Debuff Aspect is going to Suck Balls. Because his tac boosted sci damage? Is a complete farce, vs him going and building for Damage. Infact his damage is so hindered by doing this, that he is actually a Better CC Specialist when he builds for Damage Dealing in the first place, a sci on the other hand? Not so much. And the Sci, having SNB is no matter how you try to deny, or faceroll scream A Debuff and CC synergetic Power. It's the power that pushes a ship right over the edge, when the CC aspect is properly employed. (Ie you just kicked someone 15km away from allies and your team closes on the target. Oh right. you hate TBR. Because you don't think it works. Because you can't fly for **** . Or when VM with Doffs hits the target, and he blows defensive buffs before his aux can get shut down so he doesn't get Hosed. And then you SNB it all off anyway. Preferably after you just kicked his TRIBBLE 15km away)
A Tac building around CC and Debuff, Sucks Period. This rings true even in Escorts. Because the tac can't apply it's best asset. Strong damage. Your damage is so Pathetically Low without particle gen consoles on a tac sci ship, that it really doesn't matter if you are boosting your damage output.
Why it's almost like, tacs are better at something than a sci. Damage.
Also Dassem: you will never get what you want. balance for pugging. Because pug players in this game? Dude they are so mentally crippled that most of the time they can't even balance their own shields. Of course Sub Nuc doesn't matter against that kind of Trash. Unless you gave sci "Super duper sci pattern alpha~!" where it boosts all sci power damage by +50 percent you won't notice a single damn difference.
What the "kick tac in the nuts" camp is blatantly ignoring is that Sci Weapons Suck TRIBBLE. Period. No ands ifs or buts about it. Their Damage Capability Sucks TRIBBLE. Or maybe you aren't ignoring that. and you really are butt hurt that tacs can put up pretty almost meaningless #s on a scoreboard at the end of a match, and completely ignore all the Direct Kills that SNB scores.
Tell you what, you give all sci ships 4 tac consoles and DHC capability then we'll talk about taking away tac boosted sci skills. Till then you are all just being a bunch of whiny little girls that can't handle seeing #s on a scoreboard.
Sci ship weapons Suck TRIBBLE for Damage Dealing, especially with the Limited Tac boffs. Tac weapon damage in a sci ship is utterly Pathetic.
... Snip Other Stuff
I don't think this is as true anymore. For example, currently using Tyken's III, VM, topped w/ES TSSx Sci ships can disable/shutdown targets and the Sci Ships Torps/Mines can then potentionally deal deadly spike damage or even a BO. There's a variety of Sci ships that have Uni Slots as well as non-Sci ships which can field both Lt Commander and up Sci/Tac Boffs, eg Odsy. Sci, Tholian Sci, Kar-fi, and BoPs.
Off subject, Aux2Batt Doffs allow for many non aux dependent abilities to be cycle through quickly, allowing for much shorter cooldowns. This helps reduce long cooldown sci abilities. Also, this let's Tac Captains use Cruisers which have decent Tac Boff layouts/turnrate, to cycle DEM3 nearly as if were 2 copies same w/APO and CVS. The point being Tacs can have a place in non-escort ships.
Weapons aside I'd prefer if the damage Sci Skills were fewer and far between, and if there were some, the few that did exist were benefited from Sci Captain's ability or Sci Boff Traits.
Still, I'd give a boost for a Tac Captain in a Sci ship using the Ship's native SubSytem Targeting since it's a Tac ability by design.
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I don't think this is as true anymore. For example, currently using Tyken's III, VM, topped w/ES TSSx Sci ships can disable/shutdown targets and the Sci Ships Torps/Mines can then potentionally deal deadly spike damage or even a BO. There's a variety of Sci ships that have Uni Slots as well as non-Sci ships which can field both Lt Commander and up Sci/Tac Boffs, eg Odsy. Sci, Tholian Sci, Kar-fi, and BoPs.
Off subject, Aux2Batt Doffs allow for many non aux dependent abilities to be cycle through quickly, allowing for much shorter cooldowns. This helps reduce long cooldown sci abilities. Also, this let's Tac Captains use Cruisers which have decent Tac Boff layouts/turnrate, to cycle DEM3 nearly as if were 2 copies same w/APO and CVS. The point being Tacs can have a place in non-escort ships.
Weapons aside I'd prefer if the damage Sci Skills were fewer and far between, and if there were some, the few that did exist were benefited from Sci Captain's ability or Sci Boff Traits.
Still, I'd give a boost for a Tac Captain in a Sci ship using the Ship's native SubSytem Targeting since it's a Tac ability by design.
And in that case an Escort can do more damage by far for you than what that setup is providing you. And against Smart players, your damage out put is Nil. Which is to a great detriment to your team mates ability to bring down targets.
And in that case an Escort can do more damage by far for you than what that setup is providing you. And against Smart players, your damage out put is Nil. Which is to a great detriment to your team mates ability to bring down targets.
Correct, what I described won't have the damage #s of an escort, but it can be very deadly regardless and potentionally more so by a Tac Captain than a Sci since a Tac Captain can significantly boost the weapon's spike damage once the target defenses are shutdown. There are a few Sci Ships with options for Tac Boff layout to spike at the appropriate time. From what I've seen having even just a couple of ships spam VMs and Tykens (w/Doffs) is enough to cause serious problems, and they don't have to be Sci ships to do it.
A Sci BoP (though BoPs are being left in the dust) or MVAE pilot won't have the same numbers as a Tac Pilot, but can be potentionally more effective b/c they can better time their Captain abilities, via ship manuverability, than if they were in most Sci Ships and still do solid damage w/DHCs and Tac Boffs as well as use Sci CC/Debuff.
The TAC Aux2Batt cruiser build I described can put up very high damage numbers, but it won't have the spike capabilities of a Tac Escort. It still is one of the best pressure DPS setups period. It has the potential to add more raw damage numbers than most Tac Escorts.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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C&H Fed banter
Correct, what I described won't have the damage #s of an escort, but it can be very deadly regardless and potentionally more so by a Tac Captain than a Sci since a Tac Captain can significantly boost the weapon's spike damage once the target defenses are shutdown. There are a few Sci Ships with options for Tac Boff layout to spike at the appropriate time. From what I've seen having even just a couple of ships spam VMs and Tykens (w/Doffs) is enough to cause serious problems, and they don't have to be Sci ships to do it.
A Sci BoP (though BoPs are being left in the dust) or MVAE pilot won't have the same numbers as a Tac Pilot, but can be potentionally more effective b/c they can better time their Captain abilities, via ship manuverability, than if they were in most Sci Ships and still do solid damage w/DHCs and Tac Boffs as well as use Sci CC/Debuff.
The TAC Aux2Batt cruiser build I described can put up very high damage numbers, but it won't have the spike capabilities of a Tac Escort. It still is one of the best pressure DPS setups period. It has the potential to add more raw damage numbers than most Tac Escorts.
"potentially" yeah. if the target is not Skilled. if the target is Skilled the only way you are doing any significant damage with that load out is with a Sci Captain to SNB their remaining defenses away with, since sci weapons aren't capable of enough Throw Down to overcome even diminished defenses, even with tac buffs barring a 20 percent GDF bonus. Sure, you can run a CC Debuff Build as a tac, but it won't be nearly as effective, as a Sci will be at it, because Tac buffs synergize with things that do significant damage to start with. Not plinky weapons, or weapons that you have to hope some how you will down a facing with to unload a burst with by itself. Both of which, are weapons that are fit to sci ships.
Only good bop is the Sci Bop. And that's best employed via sci captain due to the ships ludicrous agility to use SNB willy nilly along with the 90 degree sci skills like VM, and TR3. The DHCs are there to simply add pressure to the mix, while the tac in the Karfi, or Fleet Vorcha throws it down and lays waste to the now crippled target.
As I said before, Tac Sci is the DPS Wizard
Sci Sci, is the Debuff/Curse Wizard.
Both perform CC roles, but do so vastly differently when they are built for maximum effectiveness. Kicking DPS wizards in the junk to remove them from the game is not going to solve the fact that the Curse/Debuff Wizard isn't up to snuff. (and frankly I would argue that they are still plenty up to snuff when built to the 9s and fighting players of Skill. because pugs? debuffs don't matter AT ALL against people that honestly die to Shuttlecraft while in T5 ships)
And both are still far and away better than the dumb TRIBBLE engineer.
Also Dassem: you will never get what you want. balance for pugging. Because pug players in this game? Dude they are so mentally crippled that most of the time they can't even balance their own shields. Of course Sub Nuc doesn't matter against that kind of Trash. Unless you gave sci "Super duper sci pattern alpha~!" where it boosts all sci power damage by +50 percent you won't notice a single damn difference.
Actually, Sci pattern alpha would fit the bill perfectly! Make it replace photonic spam, and give it +50 to all the offensive sci skills (grav/part generators, flow cap, CMS, decompiler)
Also, replace Scatter/Dampening Field with a single target shield resistance debuff. Like FOMM, but for shields rather than hull. (Call it "NO! Fire on MY mark instead!" )
Then we'd have us a sci captain that was worth taking into combat!
And why can't the sci, know how to better afflict the enemy ship with negative status effects?
And why doesn't the Engineer know how to best effect repairs to ships? Because right now? Engineer Captains Suck, not by a little, but by ALOT. I would much rather have a sci cruiser right now than an Eng Cruiser for healing duties, they suck so hard thanks to all the new super healing doffs we have in pvp.
Yup, preach it baby until systems takes the mickey mouses off and actually looks at what is happening.How many premades run more then one eng in anything?
I'm royally annoyed right now. I have 5 toons, and a love for sci ships, combined with a passionatae hate for carriers. my mains, my most developed alts are pretty much all on hold when a real team is trying to form. Because sci/sci, sci/cruiser, eng/cruiser, eng/sci just plain suck at what they are supposed to do. CC is worthless, tacs do it better, and no one needs the healing from a second eng on the team.
And yes SNB is still responsible for effective kills. What does the increased pressure from eng's do that isn't negated by borg or Distro Doff procs?? When is the last time a two eng cruiser match has ended before a new season put everything on reset.
"potentially" yeah. if the target is not Skilled. if the target is Skilled the only way you are doing any significant damage with that load out is with a Sci Captain to SNB their remaining defenses away with, since sci weapons aren't capable of enough Throw Down to overcome even diminished defenses, even with tac buffs barring a 20 percent GDF bonus. Sure, you can run a CC Debuff Build as a tac, but it won't be nearly as effective, as a Sci will be at it, because Tac buffs synergize with things that do significant damage to start with. Not plinky weapons, or weapons that you have to hope some how you will down a facing with to unload a burst with by itself. Both of which, are weapons that are fit to sci ships.
Only good bop is the Sci Bop. And that's best employed via sci captain due to the ships ludicrous agility to use SNB willy nilly along with the 90 degree sci skills like VM, and TR3. The DHCs are there to simply add pressure to the mix, while the tac in the Karfi, or Fleet Vorcha throws it down and lays waste to the now crippled target.
As I said before, Tac Sci is the DPS Wizard
Sci Sci, is the Debuff/Curse Wizard.
Both perform CC roles, but do so vastly differently when they are built for maximum effectiveness. Kicking DPS wizards in the junk to remove them from the game is not going to solve the fact that the Curse/Debuff Wizard isn't up to snuff. (and frankly I would argue that they are still plenty up to snuff when built to the 9s and fighting players of Skill. because pugs? debuffs don't matter AT ALL against people that honestly die to Shuttlecraft while in T5 ships)
And both are still far and away better than the dumb TRIBBLE engineer.
1st, I agree about Engineer. Imo, defenses have been boosted far too much while offesive firepower has hardly been boosted (w/the exception of tet glider and 5 Tac Console Escorts). The easiest solution to this to me is to raise max level again for weapons and boost Weapon systems buffer power limit. There's so many ways to gain power anymore (too many imo) there's not nearly the power mgt benefit there used to be, a niche of Engineers. The increase buffer power would be a way to for those abilities to shine a bit again.
I don't agree w/the Tac Sci DPS wizard analogy. This is a space game not a fantasy game. That said traditionally "DPS wizards" have the lowest defenses and hps of all. Sci Boats are hardly that. If you really want to try the Tac Sci DPS wizard waste $ on the Fleet 16k hull BoP.
The issue isn't the target regarding the rough build I mentioned. The stacking Tyken's proc is AoE likely to catch some of the target's allies. For any target it's only a matter of time before they have zero power to all systems. I don't see an issue w/a Tac boff torp volley or 2 or BO or 2 killing a boat w/o shields and zero movement.
The "potential" I implied deals w/the Tac Sci being subjected to like disabling abilities and/or having a more limited defense capability than a Sci Sci and not having repair support from others while under focus fire.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
[And yes SNB is still responsible for effective kills. What does the increased pressure from eng's do that isn't negated by borg or Distro Doff procs?? When is the last time a two eng cruiser match has ended before a new season put everything on reset. [/COLOR]
Funny you should mention SNB and engineers in the same paragraph. Engineers are the class that is most resiliant to just that! You SNB him when he's fully boff-buffed with HE, EPtoS, TSS etc, and he just slaps down RSF and/or MW.
G&F has also mentioned how good being a sci in a drain build is, how it is better for a sci than a tac just because of SNB. This is basically the only thing a sci/sci does better than a tac/sci, and the only thing a sci/sci can do well...unless... the target is an engineer. He has spare heals to recover his resists, EPS-transfer will restore his power, and MW will restore downed subsystems. (at least it used to afai remember?)
So by the statement that SNB is the most powerful skill in game, an engineer has equally powerful skills, as it can survive the SNB.
That said, I'd really like to see more from Nadion. It's supposed to reduce power use from all systems, but as weapons are the only things that actually draw power... It's sort of wasted on anything but a high sustained energy damage build...
If you really want to try the Tac Sci DPS wizard waste $ on the Fleet 16k hull BoP.
Can't wait to face these in my tric bomber... My HYT3 with tac buffs and 4 TDC consoles should be able to one-pop these quite reliably. And unlike the Norgh, my Defiant/AE has enough HP to avoid popping myself in the process!
(and fired at .0 range, it's a insta-gib that only a GW/Tykens can prevent!)
I don't even really understand where all this Tac jealousy comes from.
Does Dassem only fly Sci Captains and only has a "grass greener on the other side" perspective on Tac?
That's the only way I can explain this whole "Tac Captains are teh bestest in everythang!" thing.
I'd never even consider replacing my Sci/SV with a Tac/SV and I've deleted my Tac/BoP to make a Sci/BoP instead.
Hell, the only reason my Sci/scort isn't outperforming my Tac/scort in all respects is the lack of BOFF training options; certainly not the abilities.
By the way, for a thread on Captain abilities, they certainly haven't been given center stage.
There's been more derail about unrelated stuff than actual talk about them.
I don't even really understand where all this Tac jealousy comes from.
Does Dassem only fly Sci Captains and only has a "grass greener on the other side" perspective on Tac?
That's the only way I can explain this whole "Tac Captains are teh bestest in everythang!" thing.
I'd never even consider replacing my Sci/SV with a Tac/SV and I've deleted my Tac/BoP to make a Sci/BoP instead.
the only reason my Sci/scort isn't outperforming my Tac/scort in all respects is the lack of BOFF training options; certainly not the abilities.
By the way, for a thread on Captain abilities, they certainly haven't been given center stage.
There's been more derail about unrelated stuff than actual talk about them.
Heh, my first year of PvPing I flew mostly sci, but for the last 1.5 years I'vr flown tac 99% of the time. I take my one of my sci out for a try every now and then, but am always disappointed. As a result, I've kept rolling tac toons, and now have 7 of them that are to be seen in PvP frequently. (Dee, Felicitas, That Guy, Icarium, Zoidberg, Someone, Gornivor)
However, as I like as much variation as possible, I'd like to be able to take a different class out for a spin now and then, without feeling like i'm gimping myself.
It comes from the fact that Tactical captains are the "Easy" level game in space combat in STO. Almost every ship becomes more effective at carrying out missions with a Tac in the captain's chair.
That imbalance does not stem from Engineers or Science captains being particularily inferior, though, but from the mission design, both in PvP and PvE. Everything that really counts is DPS, and guess what captain class is best at boosting effective DPS. (Capture And Hold PvP is potentially an exception, but it suffers from the points being too close to each other to really make that count.)
With more scenarios in PvP, with less "kill everything fast" missions in PvE, there would not really be an imbalance, I think - the problem pointed at in the thread title being the one exception.
For once, you are spot on!
The devs have tried adressing this in PvE a bit, by introducing healing in the new Fleet Actions, but sci is still a sad and sorry chapter.
For Sci however, I think the problem is double. Sci does bad because missions are not made for it, and missions are not made for it because the sorry state of sci abilities makes it too difficult.
For PvE, however, this could be remedied by removing the NPC resist/immunity to SS and VM. (Imagine, all the hard enemies have immunity to VM... ) In the old days, with a dedicated sci build, I could be someone in PvE in a sciship.
With PvP in mind, It may also be an idea to have a look at the shared CD for some of the sci powers. Removing shared CD of GW and Tykens would help (you can't have two good versions up at the same time anyway) Buffing the heck out of Tachyon and CPB would also help alot.
1st, I agree about Engineer. Imo, defenses have been boosted far too much while offesive firepower has hardly been boosted (w/the exception of tet glider and 5 Tac Console Escorts). The easiest solution to this to me is to raise max level again for weapons and boost Weapon systems buffer power limit. There's so many ways to gain power anymore (too many imo) there's not nearly the power mgt benefit there used to be, a niche of Engineers. The increase buffer power would be a way to for those abilities to shine a bit again.
I don't agree w/the Tac Sci DPS wizard analogy. This is a space game not a fantasy game. That said traditionally "DPS wizards" have the lowest defenses and hps of all. Sci Boats are hardly that. If you really want to try the Tac Sci DPS wizard waste $ on the Fleet 16k hull BoP.
The issue isn't the target regarding the rough build I mentioned. The stacking Tyken's proc is AoE likely to catch some of the target's allies. For any target it's only a matter of time before they have zero power to all systems. I don't see an issue w/a Tac boff torp volley or 2 or BO or 2 killing a boat w/o shields and zero movement.
The "potential" I implied deals w/the Tac Sci being subjected to like disabling abilities and/or having a more limited defense capability than a Sci Sci and not having repair support from others while under focus fire.
They could always scale back the power of doffs, and reiterate the importance of the original boff skills, this would do alot actually to bringing back the power of the engineer.
Except this IS a fantasy game. It's science fantasy. It uses the exact same paradigms already. So Tac Sci = DPS Wizard applies perfectly. Also, due to how Defense, and rotating your ships to fresh shield facings work, tac sci is arguably less durable than a tac scort. While you have more shield points, your agility is lower, leaving you more reliant on doubling up on things like TSS2 in order to maintain durability cycles that are comparable.
"Then you should play a bop!" no. I shouldn't have to play KDF just to play One Combo. That is so 1999 that I can't believe I just read that suggestion.
And the tac sci does have less defensive options than the Sci Sci. Infact much like the Curse/Debuff Wizards in a few other games, sci sci in this has access to things exclusively that boost it's damage resistance making it less susceptible to being debuffed into oblivion.
For all the people complaining about Tac Sci... do you want to know the best way to completely hose one? Hands down Every Time? Sub Nuke, TBR repels, A Viral Matrix, or some TR3s (or all of the above). The Sci ship has access to far less Hold Breaks than does an Escort, is far less mobile, and has a worse inertia score. Meaning that Debuffs and Crowd Control Maul it.
Funny you should mention SNB and engineers in the same paragraph. Engineers are the class that is most resiliant to just that! You SNB him when he's fully boff-buffed with HE, EPtoS, TSS etc, and he just slaps down RSF and/or MW.
G&F has also mentioned how good being a sci in a drain build is, how it is better for a sci than a tac just because of SNB. This is basically the only thing a sci/sci does better than a tac/sci, and the only thing a sci/sci can do well...unless... the target is an engineer. He has spare heals to recover his resists, EPS-transfer will restore his power, and MW will restore downed subsystems. (at least it used to afai remember?)
So by the statement that SNB is the most powerful skill in game, an engineer has equally powerful skills, as it can survive the SNB.
That said, I'd really like to see more from Nadion. It's supposed to reduce power use from all systems, but as weapons are the only things that actually draw power... It's sort of wasted on anything but a high sustained energy damage build...
not sure what we are disagreeing on? The eng has the best chances of surviving anything since he is the only one with selft heals as cpt powers. So he can not respawn and watch the timers in PvE run out, or wait for another attack run in pvp.
on a sidenote: GTFO is still the best response to drain builds, good luck running in a eng/carrier or eng/cruiser. Once more escorts eat the cake here.
Besides EPS not working agains Powerdrains. My point still stands. The best and eng can do with eps is give it to a tac. The kill count at the end of a match will most likely still be the result of well timed subnuc. Not MW, Nadeon, F@W.... let alone Aceton Beam, Boarding Party, DEM (unless used by tac).....
Funny you should mention SNB and engineers in the same paragraph. Engineers are the class that is most resiliant to just that! You SNB him when he's fully boff-buffed with HE, EPtoS, TSS etc, and he just slaps down RSF and/or MW.
G&F has also mentioned how good being a sci in a drain build is, how it is better for a sci than a tac just because of SNB. This is basically the only thing a sci/sci does better than a tac/sci, and the only thing a sci/sci can do well...unless... the target is an engineer. He has spare heals to recover his resists, EPS-transfer will restore his power, and MW will restore downed subsystems. (at least it used to afai remember?)
So by the statement that SNB is the most powerful skill in game, an engineer has equally powerful skills, as it can survive the SNB.
That said, I'd really like to see more from Nadion. It's supposed to reduce power use from all systems, but as weapons are the only things that actually draw power... It's sort of wasted on anything but a high sustained energy damage build...
And yet, you can still counter SNB without those things. On a Softer level yes, but you still can. It's called get nuked, pop a Shield Battery, and then a transfer shield strength 2, or possibly pop a Brace for impact and watch your poor man RSP work wonders. Or you can carry RSP on your ship, giving you a 9 second cushion to get an EPTS ready again.
Sci sci is also better for a Repulsion build if you are going straight on repel. Because a tacs damage output while doing so is going to be nil compared to the ability to rob someone of their defenses completely.
The problem is overall that the Debuff aspects are not working correctly in this game. Not that Tacs are too good at damage. Remember when CPB and Tachyon didn't have Resistance? There was no point what so ever in taking a Tac Escort on a team, when it was costing you more Sci peen. Especially since Torp Spread is still a good solid Burst Damage ability, and it's an AOE. A Tac Sci, was even more of a joke in that regards since the best sci powers did not synergise with tac abilities in any capacity, and the non best abilities, like FBP didn't either. So tacs, in Escorts were useless by comparison, and tac sci even doubly so.
The thing is the ONLY thing eng skills allow you to do is survive. There are so many ways to do that now, thanks to Doffemon that particular niche is pointless when what you really need is Moar DPS or Moar Debuff. The eng captaincy really does not help you "heal better" anymore because everyone has so many fall back options that it's sad. And their "Fleet Skill" is a complete farce since it adds only a weak TRIBBLE +30, to HDR. The Sci has 3 incredibly useful Captain abilities as it stands right now.
1 Sub Nuke, 2 Sci Fleet, and 3 Sensor Scan.
And their 4th is still circumstantially useful.
Tacs can't say that. They have exactly two really useful skills. APA and GDF. Mind you they are powerful tricks indeed.
Tac Fleet is circumstantially useful. (great for popping it when an enemy is near death and being focus fired)
But Tac Initiative, and FOMM? Are complete Bupkiss. the former being circumstantially useful, when you are needing to extend your highest level dps skills damage windows. The latter never being useful.
Engineers have exactly 2 useful skills. Rotate Shield Frequency, and EPS Power Transfer, the latter is only becoming circumstantially useful however, due to the fact that Maco gives power, as does Leech, and E Siphon works. The latter, is only really useful on energy dependent damage dealing, which is again, not what sci ships are good at anyway.
Nadion, and MW both are a farce.
Eng sci in this game, has always been on at best shaky ground outside of a Healer (aka the Cleanser wizard/Priest) but now? You might as well not even bother.
The devs have tried adressing this in PvE a bit, by introducing healing in the new Fleet Actions, but sci is still a sad and sorry chapter.
For Sci however, I think the problem is double. Sci does bad because missions are not made for it, and missions are not made for it because the sorry state of sci abilities makes it too difficult.
For PvE, however, this could be remedied by removing the NPC resist/immunity to SS and VM. (Imagine, all the hard enemies have immunity to VM... ) In the old days, with a dedicated sci build, I could be someone in PvE in a sciship.
With PvP in mind, It may also be an idea to have a look at the shared CD for some of the sci powers. Removing shared CD of GW and Tykens would help (you can't have two good versions up at the same time anyway) Buffing the heck out of Tachyon and CPB would also help alot.
Sci does bad in pve, because like the average puggee, npcs don't use buffs. And their shield #s are so Insane that shield strip does not work. TR and drain works pretty well in pve, as does TBR repulsions (works 100 percent of the time the way you planned it in pve) which for stuff like KA, and Cure is good. But overall? again npcs don't use buffs. Because Cryptic fails at life in game design terms.
I play, Tac, Sci and Eng. And out of the three right now the only one you never see me really touch is my Eng. Infact I dislike the Eng's competency right now so much I am most likely never rolling another Engineer. I have 3 sci toons. and 3 tacs.
Also giving sci a "Sci pattern alpha" would be a terrible idea unless you removed some of their Durability Boosters. Giving sci access to Tac Sci damage dealing capability would render Tac Sci back to useless land just like removing tac boosted sci skills would unless you didn't add to Particle Gens with it. Instead of Particle gens Sci pattern alpha would have to add to Flow Capacitors, Gravitons, Decompiler and Countermeasures.
I remember when I could scramble a cube and make it eat the little borgs for lunch...
I remember a GW that sucked the way it should... when a good sci could wipe a whole megamob in old infected... (heck, this vid may have been partially responsible for the nerf... Notice take #3, where we got both cubes and partially ripped the shields off the tac cube.)
I remember VM locking down that single Tac Cube for long periods of time.
I remember repulsing that Tac Cube into the gate to give it a real whack with it's warp core explosion.
I remember Tractoring or CPBing Donatra to prevent her from cloaking.
I remember... the days when a sci/sci could still hold his own...
And every time we sci/sci players found a way of being useful, the nerf was immediately to follow. "NO! Only Tac/Escorts should be able to kill something fast! Scis have no business being effective!"
I remember when I could scramble a cube and make it eat the little borgs for lunch...
I remember a GW that sucked the way it should... when a good sci could wipe a whole megamob in old infected... (heck, this vid may have been partially responsible for the nerf... Notice take #3, where we got both cubes and partially ripped the shields off the tac cube.)
I remember VM locking down that single Tac Cube for long periods of time.
I remember repulsing that Tac Cube into the gate to give it a real whack with it's warp core explosion.
I remember Tractoring or CPBing Donatra to prevent her from cloaking.
I remember... the days when a sci/sci could still hold his own...
And every time we sci/sci players found a way of being useful, the nerf was immediately to follow. "NO! Only Tac/Escorts should be able to kill something fast! Scis have no business being effective!"
most or all that ability should be restored imo. im surprised they would nerf stuff like that in the first place, seeing as it makes sci/sci pve proof. i know for a fact that siphons got slightly toned down a wile back simply because the could turn cubes in stfs in to inert hitpoint boxes.
and guys, this pve tac/sci rage thread here is killing me, the stupid is boiling over. they are all so clueless, backup would be appreciated. we don't want the devs to pay more attention to that thread's nonsense then this threads insight.
most or all that ability should be restored imo. im surprised they would nerf stuff like that in the first place, seeing as it makes sci/sci pve proof. i know for a fact that siphons got slightly toned down a wile back simply because the could turn cubes in stfs in to inert hitpoint boxes.
and guys, this pve tac/sci rage thread here is killing me, the stupid is boiling over. they are all so clueless, backup would be appreciated. we don't want the devs to pay more attention to that thread's nonsense then this threads insight.
Comments
This. The only reason Tacs in Sci ships are better than Sci's in sci ships, right now, is because the majority of viable powers are damage dealing powers (TBR for example).
Make the other powers viable again and the sci/sci will be back.
You say "zomg weapon damage zomg zomg zomg" And I say stuff it. Sci ship weapons Suck TRIBBLE for Damage Dealing, especially with the Limited Tac boffs. Tac weapon damage in a sci ship is utterly Pathetic.
You take away tac boosted sci skills and the Tac might as well go back to his Escort. Because he's certainly not going to be generating Kills with Sci Guns. Infact the combo is so laughably bad that even for Pug Duty it's a terrible choice. We had it your way for the better part of a year and a half. And guess what champ, no tacs touched a sci ship outside of a very very select few of us, who were only putting our tacs in sci ships to test for our Sci Scis later.
You boost the CC aspect of sci powers, and then you cry "zomg imagine tacs with the debuff powa!" And guess what, there chump, a tac going for the Debuff Aspect is going to Suck Balls. Because his tac boosted sci damage? Is a complete farce, vs him going and building for Damage. Infact his damage is so hindered by doing this, that he is actually a Better CC Specialist when he builds for Damage Dealing in the first place, a sci on the other hand? Not so much. And the Sci, having SNB is no matter how you try to deny, or faceroll scream A Debuff and CC synergetic Power. It's the power that pushes a ship right over the edge, when the CC aspect is properly employed. (Ie you just kicked someone 15km away from allies and your team closes on the target. Oh right. you hate TBR. Because you don't think it works. Because you can't fly for **** . Or when VM with Doffs hits the target, and he blows defensive buffs before his aux can get shut down so he doesn't get Hosed. And then you SNB it all off anyway. Preferably after you just kicked his TRIBBLE 15km away)
A Tac building around CC and Debuff, Sucks Period. This rings true even in Escorts. Because the tac can't apply it's best asset. Strong damage. Your damage is so Pathetically Low without particle gen consoles on a tac sci ship, that it really doesn't matter if you are boosting your damage output.
Why it's almost like, tacs are better at something than a sci. Damage.
Also Dassem: you will never get what you want. balance for pugging. Because pug players in this game? Dude they are so mentally crippled that most of the time they can't even balance their own shields. Of course Sub Nuc doesn't matter against that kind of Trash. Unless you gave sci "Super duper sci pattern alpha~!" where it boosts all sci power damage by +50 percent you won't notice a single damn difference.
What the "kick tac in the nuts" camp is blatantly ignoring is that Sci Weapons Suck TRIBBLE. Period. No ands ifs or buts about it. Their Damage Capability Sucks TRIBBLE. Or maybe you aren't ignoring that. and you really are butt hurt that tacs can put up pretty almost meaningless #s on a scoreboard at the end of a match, and completely ignore all the Direct Kills that SNB scores.
Tell you what, you give all sci ships 4 tac consoles and DHC capability then we'll talk about taking away tac boosted sci skills. Till then you are all just being a bunch of whiny little girls that can't handle seeing #s on a scoreboard.
I don't think this is as true anymore. For example, currently using Tyken's III, VM, topped w/ES TSSx Sci ships can disable/shutdown targets and the Sci Ships Torps/Mines can then potentionally deal deadly spike damage or even a BO. There's a variety of Sci ships that have Uni Slots as well as non-Sci ships which can field both Lt Commander and up Sci/Tac Boffs, eg Odsy. Sci, Tholian Sci, Kar-fi, and BoPs.
Off subject, Aux2Batt Doffs allow for many non aux dependent abilities to be cycle through quickly, allowing for much shorter cooldowns. This helps reduce long cooldown sci abilities. Also, this let's Tac Captains use Cruisers which have decent Tac Boff layouts/turnrate, to cycle DEM3 nearly as if were 2 copies same w/APO and CVS. The point being Tacs can have a place in non-escort ships.
Weapons aside I'd prefer if the damage Sci Skills were fewer and far between, and if there were some, the few that did exist were benefited from Sci Captain's ability or Sci Boff Traits.
Still, I'd give a boost for a Tac Captain in a Sci ship using the Ship's native SubSytem Targeting since it's a Tac ability by design.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
And in that case an Escort can do more damage by far for you than what that setup is providing you. And against Smart players, your damage out put is Nil. Which is to a great detriment to your team mates ability to bring down targets.
Correct, what I described won't have the damage #s of an escort, but it can be very deadly regardless and potentionally more so by a Tac Captain than a Sci since a Tac Captain can significantly boost the weapon's spike damage once the target defenses are shutdown. There are a few Sci Ships with options for Tac Boff layout to spike at the appropriate time. From what I've seen having even just a couple of ships spam VMs and Tykens (w/Doffs) is enough to cause serious problems, and they don't have to be Sci ships to do it.
A Sci BoP (though BoPs are being left in the dust) or MVAE pilot won't have the same numbers as a Tac Pilot, but can be potentionally more effective b/c they can better time their Captain abilities, via ship manuverability, than if they were in most Sci Ships and still do solid damage w/DHCs and Tac Boffs as well as use Sci CC/Debuff.
The TAC Aux2Batt cruiser build I described can put up very high damage numbers, but it won't have the spike capabilities of a Tac Escort. It still is one of the best pressure DPS setups period. It has the potential to add more raw damage numbers than most Tac Escorts.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
"potentially" yeah. if the target is not Skilled. if the target is Skilled the only way you are doing any significant damage with that load out is with a Sci Captain to SNB their remaining defenses away with, since sci weapons aren't capable of enough Throw Down to overcome even diminished defenses, even with tac buffs barring a 20 percent GDF bonus. Sure, you can run a CC Debuff Build as a tac, but it won't be nearly as effective, as a Sci will be at it, because Tac buffs synergize with things that do significant damage to start with. Not plinky weapons, or weapons that you have to hope some how you will down a facing with to unload a burst with by itself. Both of which, are weapons that are fit to sci ships.
Only good bop is the Sci Bop. And that's best employed via sci captain due to the ships ludicrous agility to use SNB willy nilly along with the 90 degree sci skills like VM, and TR3. The DHCs are there to simply add pressure to the mix, while the tac in the Karfi, or Fleet Vorcha throws it down and lays waste to the now crippled target.
As I said before, Tac Sci is the DPS Wizard
Sci Sci, is the Debuff/Curse Wizard.
Both perform CC roles, but do so vastly differently when they are built for maximum effectiveness. Kicking DPS wizards in the junk to remove them from the game is not going to solve the fact that the Curse/Debuff Wizard isn't up to snuff. (and frankly I would argue that they are still plenty up to snuff when built to the 9s and fighting players of Skill. because pugs? debuffs don't matter AT ALL against people that honestly die to Shuttlecraft while in T5 ships)
And both are still far and away better than the dumb TRIBBLE engineer.
Actually, Sci pattern alpha would fit the bill perfectly!
Also, replace Scatter/Dampening Field with a single target shield resistance debuff. Like FOMM, but for shields rather than hull. (Call it "NO! Fire on MY mark instead!"
Then we'd have us a sci captain that was worth taking into combat!
Yup, preach it baby until systems takes the mickey mouses off and actually looks at what is happening.How many premades run more then one eng in anything?
I'm royally annoyed right now. I have 5 toons, and a love for sci ships, combined with a passionatae hate for carriers. my mains, my most developed alts are pretty much all on hold when a real team is trying to form. Because sci/sci, sci/cruiser, eng/cruiser, eng/sci just plain suck at what they are supposed to do. CC is worthless, tacs do it better, and no one needs the healing from a second eng on the team.
And yes SNB is still responsible for effective kills. What does the increased pressure from eng's do that isn't negated by borg or Distro Doff procs?? When is the last time a two eng cruiser match has ended before a new season put everything on reset.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
1st, I agree about Engineer. Imo, defenses have been boosted far too much while offesive firepower has hardly been boosted (w/the exception of tet glider and 5 Tac Console Escorts). The easiest solution to this to me is to raise max level again for weapons and boost Weapon systems buffer power limit. There's so many ways to gain power anymore (too many imo) there's not nearly the power mgt benefit there used to be, a niche of Engineers. The increase buffer power would be a way to for those abilities to shine a bit again.
I don't agree w/the Tac Sci DPS wizard analogy. This is a space game not a fantasy game. That said traditionally "DPS wizards" have the lowest defenses and hps of all. Sci Boats are hardly that. If you really want to try the Tac Sci DPS wizard waste $ on the Fleet 16k hull BoP.
The issue isn't the target regarding the rough build I mentioned. The stacking Tyken's proc is AoE likely to catch some of the target's allies. For any target it's only a matter of time before they have zero power to all systems. I don't see an issue w/a Tac boff torp volley or 2 or BO or 2 killing a boat w/o shields and zero movement.
The "potential" I implied deals w/the Tac Sci being subjected to like disabling abilities and/or having a more limited defense capability than a Sci Sci and not having repair support from others while under focus fire.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Funny you should mention SNB and engineers in the same paragraph. Engineers are the class that is most resiliant to just that! You SNB him when he's fully boff-buffed with HE, EPtoS, TSS etc, and he just slaps down RSF and/or MW.
G&F has also mentioned how good being a sci in a drain build is, how it is better for a sci than a tac just because of SNB. This is basically the only thing a sci/sci does better than a tac/sci, and the only thing a sci/sci can do well...unless... the target is an engineer. He has spare heals to recover his resists, EPS-transfer will restore his power, and MW will restore downed subsystems. (at least it used to afai remember?)
So by the statement that SNB is the most powerful skill in game, an engineer has equally powerful skills, as it can survive the SNB.
That said, I'd really like to see more from Nadion. It's supposed to reduce power use from all systems, but as weapons are the only things that actually draw power... It's sort of wasted on anything but a high sustained energy damage build...
Can't wait to face these in my tric bomber... My HYT3 with tac buffs and 4 TDC consoles should be able to one-pop these quite reliably. And unlike the Norgh, my Defiant/AE has enough HP to avoid popping myself in the process!
(and fired at .0 range, it's a insta-gib that only a GW/Tykens can prevent!)
Does Dassem only fly Sci Captains and only has a "grass greener on the other side" perspective on Tac?
That's the only way I can explain this whole "Tac Captains are teh bestest in everythang!" thing.
I'd never even consider replacing my Sci/SV with a Tac/SV and I've deleted my Tac/BoP to make a Sci/BoP instead.
Hell, the only reason my Sci/scort isn't outperforming my Tac/scort in all respects is the lack of BOFF training options; certainly not the abilities.
By the way, for a thread on Captain abilities, they certainly haven't been given center stage.
There's been more derail about unrelated stuff than actual talk about them.
However, as I like as much variation as possible, I'd like to be able to take a different class out for a spin now and then, without feeling like i'm gimping myself.
For once, you are spot on!
The devs have tried adressing this in PvE a bit, by introducing healing in the new Fleet Actions, but sci is still a sad and sorry chapter.
For Sci however, I think the problem is double. Sci does bad because missions are not made for it, and missions are not made for it because the sorry state of sci abilities makes it too difficult.
For PvE, however, this could be remedied by removing the NPC resist/immunity to SS and VM. (Imagine, all the hard enemies have immunity to VM...
With PvP in mind, It may also be an idea to have a look at the shared CD for some of the sci powers. Removing shared CD of GW and Tykens would help (you can't have two good versions up at the same time anyway) Buffing the heck out of Tachyon and CPB would also help alot.
They could always scale back the power of doffs, and reiterate the importance of the original boff skills, this would do alot actually to bringing back the power of the engineer.
Except this IS a fantasy game. It's science fantasy. It uses the exact same paradigms already. So Tac Sci = DPS Wizard applies perfectly. Also, due to how Defense, and rotating your ships to fresh shield facings work, tac sci is arguably less durable than a tac scort. While you have more shield points, your agility is lower, leaving you more reliant on doubling up on things like TSS2 in order to maintain durability cycles that are comparable.
"Then you should play a bop!" no. I shouldn't have to play KDF just to play One Combo. That is so 1999 that I can't believe I just read that suggestion.
And the tac sci does have less defensive options than the Sci Sci. Infact much like the Curse/Debuff Wizards in a few other games, sci sci in this has access to things exclusively that boost it's damage resistance making it less susceptible to being debuffed into oblivion.
For all the people complaining about Tac Sci... do you want to know the best way to completely hose one? Hands down Every Time? Sub Nuke, TBR repels, A Viral Matrix, or some TR3s (or all of the above). The Sci ship has access to far less Hold Breaks than does an Escort, is far less mobile, and has a worse inertia score. Meaning that Debuffs and Crowd Control Maul it.
not sure what we are disagreeing on? The eng has the best chances of surviving anything since he is the only one with selft heals as cpt powers. So he can not respawn and watch the timers in PvE run out, or wait for another attack run in pvp.
on a sidenote: GTFO is still the best response to drain builds, good luck running in a eng/carrier or eng/cruiser. Once more escorts eat the cake here.
Besides EPS not working agains Powerdrains. My point still stands. The best and eng can do with eps is give it to a tac. The kill count at the end of a match will most likely still be the result of well timed subnuc. Not MW, Nadeon, F@W.... let alone Aceton Beam, Boarding Party, DEM (unless used by tac).....
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
And yet, you can still counter SNB without those things. On a Softer level yes, but you still can. It's called get nuked, pop a Shield Battery, and then a transfer shield strength 2, or possibly pop a Brace for impact and watch your poor man RSP work wonders. Or you can carry RSP on your ship, giving you a 9 second cushion to get an EPTS ready again.
Sci sci is also better for a Repulsion build if you are going straight on repel. Because a tacs damage output while doing so is going to be nil compared to the ability to rob someone of their defenses completely.
The problem is overall that the Debuff aspects are not working correctly in this game. Not that Tacs are too good at damage. Remember when CPB and Tachyon didn't have Resistance? There was no point what so ever in taking a Tac Escort on a team, when it was costing you more Sci peen. Especially since Torp Spread is still a good solid Burst Damage ability, and it's an AOE. A Tac Sci, was even more of a joke in that regards since the best sci powers did not synergise with tac abilities in any capacity, and the non best abilities, like FBP didn't either. So tacs, in Escorts were useless by comparison, and tac sci even doubly so.
The thing is the ONLY thing eng skills allow you to do is survive. There are so many ways to do that now, thanks to Doffemon that particular niche is pointless when what you really need is Moar DPS or Moar Debuff. The eng captaincy really does not help you "heal better" anymore because everyone has so many fall back options that it's sad. And their "Fleet Skill" is a complete farce since it adds only a weak TRIBBLE +30, to HDR. The Sci has 3 incredibly useful Captain abilities as it stands right now.
1 Sub Nuke, 2 Sci Fleet, and 3 Sensor Scan.
And their 4th is still circumstantially useful.
Tacs can't say that. They have exactly two really useful skills. APA and GDF. Mind you they are powerful tricks indeed.
Tac Fleet is circumstantially useful. (great for popping it when an enemy is near death and being focus fired)
But Tac Initiative, and FOMM? Are complete Bupkiss. the former being circumstantially useful, when you are needing to extend your highest level dps skills damage windows. The latter never being useful.
Engineers have exactly 2 useful skills. Rotate Shield Frequency, and EPS Power Transfer, the latter is only becoming circumstantially useful however, due to the fact that Maco gives power, as does Leech, and E Siphon works. The latter, is only really useful on energy dependent damage dealing, which is again, not what sci ships are good at anyway.
Nadion, and MW both are a farce.
Eng sci in this game, has always been on at best shaky ground outside of a Healer (aka the Cleanser wizard/Priest) but now? You might as well not even bother.
Sci does bad in pve, because like the average puggee, npcs don't use buffs. And their shield #s are so Insane that shield strip does not work. TR and drain works pretty well in pve, as does TBR repulsions (works 100 percent of the time the way you planned it in pve) which for stuff like KA, and Cure is good. But overall? again npcs don't use buffs. Because Cryptic fails at life in game design terms.
I play, Tac, Sci and Eng. And out of the three right now the only one you never see me really touch is my Eng. Infact I dislike the Eng's competency right now so much I am most likely never rolling another Engineer. I have 3 sci toons. and 3 tacs.
Also giving sci a "Sci pattern alpha" would be a terrible idea unless you removed some of their Durability Boosters. Giving sci access to Tac Sci damage dealing capability would render Tac Sci back to useless land just like removing tac boosted sci skills would unless you didn't add to Particle Gens with it. Instead of Particle gens Sci pattern alpha would have to add to Flow Capacitors, Gravitons, Decompiler and Countermeasures.
I remember when I could scramble a cube and make it eat the little borgs for lunch...
I remember a GW that sucked the way it should... when a good sci could wipe a whole megamob in old infected... (heck, this vid may have been partially responsible for the nerf... Notice take #3, where we got both cubes and partially ripped the shields off the tac cube.)
I remember VM locking down that single Tac Cube for long periods of time.
I remember repulsing that Tac Cube into the gate to give it a real whack with it's warp core explosion.
I remember Tractoring or CPBing Donatra to prevent her from cloaking.
I remember... the days when a sci/sci could still hold his own...
And every time we sci/sci players found a way of being useful, the nerf was immediately to follow. "NO! Only Tac/Escorts should be able to kill something fast! Scis have no business being effective!"
most or all that ability should be restored imo. im surprised they would nerf stuff like that in the first place, seeing as it makes sci/sci pve proof. i know for a fact that siphons got slightly toned down a wile back simply because the could turn cubes in stfs in to inert hitpoint boxes.
and guys, this pve tac/sci rage thread here is killing me, the stupid is boiling over. they are all so clueless, backup would be appreciated. we don't want the devs to pay more attention to that thread's nonsense then this threads insight.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=374211
actually the only time stuff gets "fixed" around here, is when PvE QQ gets going.
Fix eng cpt
Fix Sci ships
good luck with winning the internwebz arguments
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013