i never said that science captains couldnt use a buff.
but this is how i see it.
anything that is done to buff science captains doesnt change the fact that with the current skill tree layout, a tacitcal will still be better simply because this game is now only about who can dps the most. and a science cant dps.
im not complaining that he cant dps. hes not supposed to. but because a tactical can do all the crowd controling and that extra bit of dps he is the better choice if your team decides to take a science ship.
this entire thread is supposed to be about why a tactical captain is the better choice in a science ship then a science captain in a science ship.
my suggestion would only change the damage he does with the science powers. his weapons would still do more damage then a science captains could.
And taking away tac buff sci will make the ship choice completely invalidated, because Sci Ship Weapons Suck without sci skills being boosted to aid them. Now unless what you're really saying is let sci ships get a turn rate and speed boost get +1 tac console and mount DHCs THEN I could support what you want.
But otherwise you just want tac sci to be Garbage again like it was in 2.5 all the way through season 4.
Uhm it reduces the dmg to shields of your entire team by 33% for 30sec. That sounds rather useful or am I missing something?
i meant compared to eng fleet its an extremely powerful heal, but lets not deflect the main issues. Sci fleet is great, just a little too great since the healer class seems to be eng, and sci fleet > eng fleet imv
they need a buff more then sci captains imo. tac captains do NOT need a nerf though. a tac captain making any damaging ability deal more damage is a good thing. hes tactical. he damages. be it warp plasma or FBP he should enhance damage. sci should enhance sci though, it currently doesn't
I have 0 problem with it either.
I also want sci to do Better. The gap between them though isn't so mind blowing that tac needs a kick in the junk like lil mai kai over there is railing for. THAT is what I'm fighting with him over.
last i checked, fully tac buffed, my TBR3 gave 3500 per pulse. used againt someone with APO up, that's noticeable.
Lrn2read. Go reread my post and the abbreviation provided. You will see, TR3 there, not TBR3 there dassem.
for a tac to use TR3 fully, he can't use his TBR during it's uptime. Which is, quite frankly the only reliable dps dealer in the sci skills dept left for the tac. So while he's running TR3, he's not going to be doing any real damage, which completely mitigates the point of his captain assets. So he'll be sitting there spamming 3 DBBs and two overloads hoping for a Lucky Shot. Where instead he could have simply just cranked a TBR2 or 3 attack run out. Hence, why TR3 is better for a Sci Captain than it is for a tac.
That was the whole point of that part of the post. go back and read. I'll wait.
Fully tac buffed up, even FB2 doesn't do nearly that much damage in that short of a time as you think it does.
how about FBP3? I dunno what hit me, but my Raptor vapourized during it's alphastrike in 1 second by a tac/sci. Just enough time to get your PH or BFI started. (not that they would have done anything besides raising my hull resist from 35% to 45%, and negated 10% of the damage.
how about FBP3? I dunno what hit me, but my Raptor vapourized during it's alphastrike in 1 second by a tac/sci. Just enough time to get your PH or BFI started. (not that they would have done anything besides raising my hull resist from 35% to 45%, and negated 10% of the damage.
If you're running FBP3 you can't do the combo drunk put up there.
Even then though FBP3 doesn't get utterly terrifying unless you let loose an overload at the start of your alpha. (mind you this is especially common to down a shield eat a weapon battery and see what CRF does to the hull).
I've had the same thing happen from a Sci Sci when I pumped a BO2 down range that apparently rolled a miracle crit. I was dead before I even saw the damage number.
The thing w/TBR is if a captain doesn't want to be pushed it's not hard to avoid/mitigate TBR push anymore. There's the option of investing in dampners which mitigates the push a lot. Then there's Boff skills as well.
In PvP anymore people use TBR mainly for AoE damage. It can be enhanced w/debuff to a single target eg Omega 3 part bonus (reduces kinetic resists) or AoE debuffs like APB and it can be buffed via consoles/Tac Boffs/Tac Captain abilities. Also, when used w/aux2batt & tech doffs the push is next to nothing while the cooldown is reduced significantly. At this point I think a tac could use it to provide fairly consistant pressure hull damage w/torp spreads & TBR similarly to a TAC cruiser applying pressure AoE shield damage w/Tet Glider et al.
The 1st question is can a Sci Captain apply similar pressure damage. I don't think it can b/c it can't boost the torps/mines like a tac capt not to mention it currently can't debuff a target at the same rate a tac captain can buff an ability.
The 2nd question is what's the survivability difference between a Tac and a Sci Captain in the Sci Ship. This depends on the Sci ship and the rest of the boff layout as well as the rest of the team layout. Tbh, I don't fly sci ships often enough to know. But, if i had to guess given the ways a player can chain Shield Distro Doffs etc now it won't matter so much.
At that point you could have a 2nd tac in an escort and your sci in an escort (for debuff, psw interrupts, tb, and single target pressure damage) w/cruiser repair support. It's none standard but I don't think it's as bad an option as is being made out to be.
Getting back to the main OP I still think Sci Captains should have the potential to be the most effective at using Sci abilities on principle. I think Sci abilities in PvP should be more debuff/cc oriented than damage oriented. Single target abilities should be strong and AOE abilities should be weak to moderate w/stronger AoE abilities having much longer cooldowns.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Lrn2read. Go reread my post and the abbreviation provided. You will see, TR3 there, not TBR3 there dassem.
for a tac to use TR3 fully, he can't use his TBR during it's uptime. Which is, quite frankly the only reliable dps dealer in the sci skills dept left for the tac. So while he's running TR3, he's not going to be doing any real damage, which completely mitigates the point of his captain assets. So he'll be sitting there spamming 3 DBBs and two overloads hoping for a Lucky Shot. Where instead he could have simply just cranked a TBR2 or 3 attack run out. Hence, why TR3 is better for a Sci Captain than it is for a tac.
That was the whole point of that part of the post. go back and read. I'll wait.
ok, missed that letter. anyway, I don't see how being a tac can be anything but an advantage in your scenario? So you slap your TR on your target, and then what? If it should happen to disable something, you're left to killing him by weapon fire, right? And a tac captai does more damage.
Well, I never had much luck with tykens anyway, so I have limited experience with it. My tac/sci was running a lot like an escort, +TBR damage, VM, SS, FBP and heals that can make any escort-tac jealous. Best use I've found of a sci ship since the revamp.
The target will still have a suite of defensive buffs running, even while isolated and it will be a great deal more likely that the target will live through your and your allies attacks long enough for the targets allies to come help. SNB Denies This Possibility.
Realistically it is less likely his allies will catch up before the TBR Makers will due to 2 others being pushed right away from combat as well. To say nothing of chronitons being left behind as the TBR team closes to further slow the advance.
ether scenario is possible. depends on how good the team mates are. the beter the team mates, the less likly snb will be credited for a kill.
Aux to battery kills your aux power. Remember? So now you are running 2 copies of FBP. You are having to cycle them, on a regular basis, and dramatically cutting into your already limited ability to contribute team healing. (Because Tss is that good) in the hopes that someone will shoot you.. when they have no reason to. Because the only skill you have otherwise to do dps with that's signficant is TBR. Yeah, that's a real hax build right there. Sure it will **** face in pugs. But so do Shuttles carrying Overload1.
Fully tac buffed up, even FB2 doesn't do nearly that much damage in that short of a time as you think it does. I've used it enough to know better and had it used on me enough. Furthermore BFI completely makes a joke out of TBRs damage. As does Polarize Hull.
TR3 does not do 3k dps. It does less than half of what GW3 does, and GW3 caps out at under 1500k dps. And that 1500 is assuming it is hitting straight hull and that the target is stationary. So again, good luck trying to kill someone without TBR there.
my lieing eyes tell me that tac buffed FBP and TBR do deal as much damage as i think they do. sure there are counters to the damage, those resists make a joke out of any damage by anything, for a wile. full aux FBP, when target takes a hint and stop shooting, then its aux to bat TBR3 time. if you run aux to bat, you might as well technician up, so you still have space for TSS3 or ST3, or HE3, or whatever.
when your not setup for kill mode, and have grav consoles and not particle consoles, you can run all the heals and support you want. theres that flexibility again, the tac doing just as much support as the sci can, and then swapping consoles and stations to brutalize alpha striking escorts.
Abit sooner, becomes Guaranteed with a full suite of talented players on your oppositions side. Stop Pugging.
but puging is were your beloved SNB has to most chance of accomplishing something :rolleyes: the more talented players, the less likely it is that it makes a difference.
Lrn2read. Go reread my post and the abbreviation provided. You will see, TR3 there, not TBR3 there dassem.
for a tac to use TR3 fully, he can't use his TBR during it's uptime. Which is, quite frankly the only reliable dps dealer in the sci skills dept left for the tac. So while he's running TR3, he's not going to be doing any real damage, which completely mitigates the point of his captain assets. So he'll be sitting there spamming 3 DBBs and two overloads hoping for a Lucky Shot. Where instead he could have simply just cranked a TBR2 or 3 attack run out. Hence, why TR3 is better for a Sci Captain than it is for a tac.
That was the whole point of that part of the post. go back and read. I'll wait.
im having a brain TRIBBLE, whats TR3? i was only ever trying to claim TBR3 did killer damage, to be clear.
If you're running FBP3 you can't do the combo drunk put up there.
Even then though FBP3 doesn't get utterly terrifying unless you let loose an overload at the start of your alpha. (mind you this is especially common to down a shield eat a weapon battery and see what CRF does to the hull).
I've had the same thing happen from a Sci Sci when I pumped a BO2 down range that apparently rolled a miracle crit. I was dead before I even saw the damage number.
ive explained the combo several times
1 wait to be alpha'ed
2 be alpha'ed, hit all tac buffs, hit FBP, have max aux.
3 target nearly kills self or stops fireing
4 when ether condition is met, A2B followed by TBR3
ok, missed that letter. anyway, I don't see how being a tac can be anything but an advantage in your scenario? So you slap your TR on your target, and then what? If it should happen to disable something, you're left to killing him by weapon fire, right? And a tac captai does more damage.
Well, I never had much luck with tykens anyway, so I have limited experience with it. My tac/sci was running a lot like an escort, +TBR damage, VM, SS, FBP and heals that can make any escort-tac jealous. Best use I've found of a sci ship since the revamp.
Because sci ship weapons and tac boffs blow. You're better off with TBR2 or 3 (3 now since PSW3 sucks like a Thai hooker now). You won't be able to reliably get a kill, or disable a system (or 3) without an SNB present. You actually need the SNB to get the super drain combo to work properly fedside. (KDF side we both know there's no combo needed at all mind... just put on siphon drones ) TR3 doesn't really work without SNB even with Doffs. at least not with only one ship putting it down range.
And the tac boosts to TR3s damage, since TR3s damage is So Bad in the first place, really don't help it.
Because sci ship weapons and tac boffs blow. You're better off with TBR2 or 3 (3 now since PSW3 sucks like a Thai hooker now). You won't be able to reliably get a kill, or disable a system (or 3) without an SNB present. You actually need the SNB to get the super drain combo to work properly fedside. (KDF side we both know there's no combo needed at all mind... just put on siphon drones ) TR3 doesn't really work without SNB even with Doffs. at least not with only one ship putting it down range.
And the tac boosts to TR3s damage, since TR3s damage is So Bad in the first place, really don't help it.
The last first, I was referring to the tac boost to weapon damage.
SNB to make drain more viable? How? For noobs that carry a single repair ability only? All my chars carry at least two of these, usually three: EPtoS, RMCapacitator, shield battery, engi team. And with a ssci/sci trying to ruin my day, I have all the time in the world to activate them...
yes! sci captain levels of suck! well actually he will still be dealing more damage per shot and from other abilities
ether scenario is possible. depends on how good the team mates are. the beter the team mates, the less likly snb will be credited for a kill.
my lieing eyes tell me that tac buffed FBP and TBR do deal as much damage as i think they do. sure there are counters to the damage, those resists make a joke out of any damage by anything, for a wile. full aux FBP, when target takes a hint and stop shooting, then its aux to bat TBR3 time. if you run aux to bat, you might as well technician up, so you still have space for TSS3 or ST3, or HE3, or whatever.
when your not setup for kill mode, and have grav consoles and not particle consoles, you can run all the heals and support you want. theres that flexibility again, the tac doing just as much support as the sci can, and then swapping consoles and stations to brutalize alpha striking escorts.
but puging is were your beloved SNB has to most chance of accomplishing something :rolleyes: the more talented players, the less likely it is that it makes a difference.
im having a brain TRIBBLE, whats TR3? i was only ever trying to claim TBR3 did killer damage, to be clear.
ive explained the combo several times
1 wait to be alpha'ed
2 be alpha'ed, hit all tac buffs, hit FBP, have max aux.
3 target nearly kills self or stops fireing
4 when ether condition is met, A2B followed by TBR3
you have 30 seconds to do all this, its tricky.
Sure, and without SNB that damage is a complete farce because he doesn't have the necessary particle gen consoles. It's actually More likely that the target will die with SNB than the tac buffs, in the case of this particular loadout.
Except he still has 0 way to remove enemy defensive buffs. So when he's running in full debuff bot mode it is flat out Inferior. It also doesn't have access to scattering field, nor Sci fleet, like a sci does. Meaning more of it's heals can and will be consumed, on damage that isn't otherwise Critical like it would be when a sci is on the field.
Okay, but when you use Aux to batt, you lose your aux for it's full duration. That means, your heals will be TRIBBLE. All so you can get your fbps quicker.
And Pugging is the Only Time, that tac damage matters when there is no SNB on the field. Because you Can Easily out cross heal even 5 alpha strikes from Escorts in this stupid TRIBBLE game. Without SNB, you have Nothing in high end fights because of the games Overhealing.
Tykens Rift 3.
Yes, the combo which is ludicrously expensive to get together, thanks to the borked exchange or the necessary opening of the wallet. One of the two. Also, this combo completely hoses your ability to contribute on the fly to your teams healing, leaving a nice big gaping hole in your teams defenses because you don't have Sci Fleet to supplement resists while your Transfer shields and hazards are either stuck at Low Aux settings, or kicked into their globals, in addition to being lower marked versions of themselves in order to maximise the FPB and TBR combo.
The build is also, extraoridinarily vulnerable to Vm assault SNBs, Target subs and Power Drains (via either siphon pods or TR3 with doffs) or worse all of the above. A shut down sci would completely Hose that setup.
It's not exactly like you are getting your cake and eating it too here.
The last first, I was referring to the tac boost to weapon damage.
SNB to make drain more viable? How? For noobs that carry a single repair ability only? All my chars carry at least two of these, usually three: EPtoS, RMCapacitator, shield battery, engi team. And with a ssci/sci trying to ruin my day, I have all the time in the world to activate them...
How many repairs to how many subsystems can you fix at a time though. I can pretty much gaurantee you losing at least 2 sub systems if the TR Doff procs, you'll probably lose an emergency power, plus whatever subsystem gets Targeted, the SNB forces things to be on longer CD, including power recovery, as well as buff removal. Then there's VM which doesn't care what so ever about anything but Eng team (and that only works for 5 seconds and only fixes whatever is debuffed on the screen. not the subesquent doff procs, nor anything that lasts longer than 5 seconds) polaron drains regardless as well. It leaves your ship a complete Gimp, during the duration of TR3, particularly because you are probably also being held in a tractor beam and sensor scanned as if all of the above was not insurance enough. God forbid you get 2 ships doing this to you, cooridinating their Target subs, and god forbid if both of their doffs for TR proc, because then you are just one pair of torp spreads away from being knocked into oblivion.
If there's a second SNB on the field as well against your favor you're really boned. SNB's effects are exponential the more of them there are on the field. Tac stacks rather linearly, which is why you only see up to 2 in a given Serious Team, vs 3 sci captains at a time in other setups. (now the ideal imo thanks to Stupid Doffs is 3 sci and 2 tacs, because engis really didn't gain in durability what everyone else did, in damage, debuffs, and still got good self heals)
@Havam, the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is not the I Win Button you make it out to be. Surely it is good. But the Fleet Patrol Escort is seemingly on par with the Attack Ship, give or take a few minor disadvantages. ( Click Here )
I just wanna poke my nose in here to say that I've been reading this thread with interest. Please carry on.
When you read this be thinking BUFF sci... and likely Engi.... DO NOT think nerf tac. Frankly if tthe tac buffs did nothing for sci and engi offensive skills... there would be ZERO reason to ever and and frankly it would be very dumb to ever fly anything other then an escort.
I love my escorts... but its nice to make the other ships work as well.
A nerf would pigeon hole tacs into one ship.
Sci works very well in an escort.... Sci works very well in a cruiser... cause sensor scan and subnuke work no matter the ship.
If 3/4 of the ship choices gain a bonus on 1-3 tac Bridge officer skills... and the other 1/4 gain a bonus on 5-6 boff skills... well you would be crazy to fly that other 3/4 of the options.
Tac works fine... Mai is simply and perhaps understandably annoyed that sci sci feels so terrible right now... healing is simply to crazy and resists are to high. For a sci sci to take advantage of any of there debuffs in a real way. In a team setup... one escort isn't enough to break healing anymore... you need 2... and sometimes a third tac in a cruiser or sci to push through is needed as well... when the sci was able to control more and cause real havok you didn't need 3-4 ship focus fire to break a teams healing... really even with that sort of high level fire power you are still forced to switch targets 3-5 times these days to try to catch the other side at a weak point somewhere... there is no real sci to force a weak point anymore....
Sci skills NEED a buff....
Another thing that perhaps needs to happen is Sci Captain Skills need a buff...
Engi is even more pathetic really IMO... healing is strong enough right now that having the engi backup oh no buttons on your healer isn't really all that important... so running another sci in a cruiser for subnuke... or another tac in a cruiser for more dmg is a better way to go....
Consider thinking about new Doffs to offset some of these issues as well... You guys did a sensor scan doff... perhaps its time to expand on that idea.
Mai Kai suggested added a enemy debuff to dampening field... perhaps something like that could be added through doffs ?
IMO I think something like photo fleet could be deleted and replaced with a Sci Boost ability... that would increase for a period of time Sci Effect... No one seriously likes photo fleet anyway... and the reduction of spam would be appreciated by many. Making a replacment boost sci kills in a real way would be a boon for Sci Sci.
IMO I think something like photo fleet could be deleted and replaced with a Sci Boost ability... that would increase for a period of time Sci Effect... No one seriously likes photo fleet anyway... and the reduction of spam would be appreciated by many. Making a replacment boost sci kills in a real way would be a boon for Sci Sci.
Don't take away my Photo Fleet.. I like my Photo Fleet.. And it can be helpful some times with extra Damage on an Alpha strike..:(
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Don't take away my Photo Fleet.. I like my Photo Fleet.. And it can be helpful some times with extra Damage on an Alpha strike..:(
Actually, I am going to second the motion of ditching Photonic Fleet it's not all that hot of a power in the first place. If i had to pick an ability of the sci's roster to replace with some kind of skill booster, this would be it in a nutshell.
Don't take away my Photo Fleet.. I like my Photo Fleet.. And it can be helpful some times with extra Damage on an Alpha strike..:(
except that now klingon photonic ships have insane abilites.
photonic fleet needs to be removed or be made non-faction specific by using "neutral" npc ships as the reinforcments.
or completely changed into a science specific boosting power. although even if this happens i'm still converened that the tac captain will be able to do it better. (with the current way science powers are utterly useless due to resists)
except that now klingon photonic ships have insane abilites.
photonic fleet needs to be removed or be made non-faction specific by using "neutral" npc ships as the reinforcments.
or completely changed into a science specific boosting power. although even if this happens i'm still converened that the tac captain will be able to do it better. (with the current way science powers are utterly useless due to resists)
We know, allegedly they are going to be looking into resists, so think about solutions in that mind set. That way the sci captain isn't just going to /faceroll his targets and the tac captain is not unnecessarily kicked in the junk and relegated back to being completely worthless in a sci ship.
Sure, and without SNB that damage is a complete farce because he doesn't have the necessary particle gen consoles. It's actually More likely that the target will die with SNB than the tac buffs, in the case of this particular loadout.
Except he still has 0 way to remove enemy defensive buffs. So when he's running in full debuff bot mode it is flat out Inferior. It also doesn't have access to scattering field, nor Sci fleet, like a sci does. Meaning more of it's heals can and will be consumed, on damage that isn't otherwise Critical like it would be when a sci is on the field.
Okay, but when you use Aux to batt, you lose your aux for it's full duration. That means, your heals will be TRIBBLE. All so you can get your fbps quicker.
And Pugging is the Only Time, that tac damage matters when there is no SNB on the field. Because you Can Easily out cross heal even 5 alpha strikes from Escorts in this stupid TRIBBLE game. Without SNB, you have Nothing in high end fights because of the games Overhealing.
Tykens Rift 3.
Yes, the combo which is ludicrously expensive to get together, thanks to the borked exchange or the necessary opening of the wallet. One of the two. Also, this combo completely hoses your ability to contribute on the fly to your teams healing, leaving a nice big gaping hole in your teams defenses because you don't have Sci Fleet to supplement resists while your Transfer shields and hazards are either stuck at Low Aux settings, or kicked into their globals, in addition to being lower marked versions of themselves in order to maximise the FPB and TBR combo.
The build is also, extraoridinarily vulnerable to Vm assault SNBs, Target subs and Power Drains (via either siphon pods or TR3 with doffs) or worse all of the above. A shut down sci would completely Hose that setup.
It's not exactly like you are getting your cake and eating it too here.
aux to bat kills your aux for only like 10 seconds, the duration of TBR iirc. during those 10 seconds you are likely to be focusing entirely on keeping your target hit by every possible pulse. don't think its gonna be to big of a problem to have no aux for anything else at that time.
im not trying to say tac/sci is some god combo that has no weaknesses and downideds, it clearly does. its meant to do 1 thing well, kill through shields as hard as it can. but you also swap consoles, weapons, stations all in about 30 seconds during a match so you can be a quazi sci/sci, supporting, healing and befuddling if thats more needed on a team. now it cant do that quite as well as a sci/sci, but its got its Mr Hide alternate personality there waiting to terrorize.
its the same reason i like tac/cruisers, they can have an all beam array setup to focus on healing and dealing more pressure damage then an eng can, or they can put on their single cannons or DHCs and contribute a tone of damage, wile still being able to have at least some team usefulness.
When you read this be thinking BUFF sci... and likely Engi.... DO NOT think nerf tac. Frankly if tthe tac buffs did nothing for sci and engi offensive skills... there would be ZERO reason to ever and and frankly it would be very dumb to ever fly anything other then an escort.
this cant be said enough. there is nothing wrong with tacs, they are great, and functioning well. engineers are basically irreverent, and sci's are 1 or 2 trick ponies. nerfing tacs would mean thier are 3 underwhelming, inadequate captain types.
aux to bat kills your aux for only like 10 seconds, the duration of TBR iirc. during those 10 seconds you are likely to be focusing entirely on keeping your target hit by every possible pulse. don't think its gonna be to big of a problem to have no aux for anything else at that time.
im not trying to say tac/sci is some god combo that has no weaknesses and downideds, it clearly does. its meant to do 1 thing well, kill through shields as hard as it can. but you also swap consoles, weapons, stations all in about 30 seconds during a match so you can be a quazi sci/sci, supporting, healing and befuddling if thats more needed on a team. now it cant do that quite as well as a sci/sci, but its got its Mr Hide alternate personality there waiting to terrorize.
its the same reason i like tac/cruisers, they can have an all beam array setup to focus on healing and dealing more pressure damage then an eng can, or they can put on their single cannons or DHCs and contribute a tone of damage, wile still being able to have at least some team usefulness.
It's 10 seconds though that you effectively have 0 aux heals. That can be well, very bad if people figure out your buff rotation cycles.
sure it can do the console swap thing (and why don't we have Decompiler consoles yet seriously).
I completely sympathize with liking tac cruisers. I have one myself that I'm rather fond of, as I'm fond of the tac sci. I'm not knocking tac sci's prowess when built on a very narrow framework like that is. The problem is outside of that framework, there's really nothing else to run on a tac sci.
Kind of like how there's not much you can really do with sci sci, beyond a power drain boat, or Soccer Hax build.
Sci skills direly need love, and photonic fleet needs to go so sci can boost their debuff abilities.
It's 10 seconds though that you effectively have 0 aux heals. That can be well, very bad if people figure out your buff rotation cycles.
sure it can do the console swap thing (and why don't we have Decompiler consoles yet seriously).
I completely sympathize with liking tac cruisers. I have one myself that I'm rather fond of, as I'm fond of the tac sci. I'm not knocking tac sci's prowess when built on a very narrow framework like that is. The problem is outside of that framework, there's really nothing else to run on a tac sci.
Kind of like how there's not much you can really do with sci sci, beyond a power drain boat, or Soccer Hax build.
Sci skills direly need love, and photonic fleet needs to go so sci can boost their debuff abilities.
those 10 seconds are gonna be spent keeping the enemy ship hit by pulses. just like an escort if gonna focus on alpha striking his target with the exclusion of other concerns. you can do this FBP/A2B/TBR combo to multiple people at once, who ever is close by or shooting at you. though its hard to keep more then 1 person hit with the full amount of pulses. i ve seen a tac/sci fly into a fed ball and left everyone with half thier hull gone or worse, try mitigating that before it gets multiple people killed. you just gotta hope you have team support, or your isolated enough to be able to do your thing without getting shot in the back when you aux is low. its just a built in disadvantage when you have such a min maxed setup
i think we basically agree, sci captains are what need help, the rest of this is just debating HOW effective ether setup is. i just think tac/sci's are more deadly then then you do, and i have yet to run into a sci/sci that was more then just annoying, and am unconvinced they are relevant currently. they are only deadly when i have no support and the sci ship brought an escort with him
I just wanna poke my nose in here to say that I've been reading this thread with interest. Please carry on.
This brings me back to my old argument that the class only stuff and skills in general need an overall especially have you ever heard a Klingon Captain in any series say Attack Pattern Whatever? No its not a Klingon method plus Klingons do not use the metric system so Km is not what it should say to us on KDF toons as well... Wow I could go on but yeah you could look at it from the threads topic of tactical boosting science... Science is not useless in fact one of my still usable science methods of dps especially in a bop is a aux battery + sensor scan + attack pattern beta... This not only boosts the science officer who does this but it benefits a whole team because the target is being debuffed for anyone who attacks it. However when you look at alpha strike it only benefits the tactical officer which maybe what the OP was trying to originally say.
I would be up for it if the systems in which these 3 classes operate were changed for the better so especially if you take a side step to ground combat... If you have special ground skills like say the Vulcans, Letheans, Gorn, Orions just to name a few. A lot of these have little or not benefit from engineering or science class only skills but if you go take a look at how a tactical officer performs with their kits and class only skills they far outshine the other 2 classes. Some might say as always even though I know what I am talking about prime example is take a tactical lethean and a science lethean and both give them the fri 13th doff. Do whatever you would play a science with as their kit and test out your numbers. Then take a fire team kit or an operative kit and use the striketeam/fire on my mark/battle strategies/target optics/ambush method then hit rapture and if you notice it will kill most things on contact and then hit your tactical inititiative which will then let you use the ability non stop until that 20 seconds is over with. Where as if you are an engineer or a science officer you cannot pull this off unless you have a tact willing to coordinate with you atleast for the tact init timer but as far as the damage you won't get anywhere close to that. For all these ground skills its pretty similar I was just using an example of the highest damage combination you can currently pull out versus each class/race/ground skill.
or completely changed into a science specific boosting power. although even if this happens i'm still converened that the tac captain will be able to do it better. (with the current way science powers are utterly useless due to resists)
Well I agree that that is the basic issue resists are strong... but resists effect tac and sci really. The tac ends up being a bit more effective cause they can ramp up dmg numbers.
Really if you had a on click power that had a 30s duration every 2-3 min... that gave you +300 to every offensive sci skill in the tree.... you don't think that would break through resists ?
Of course people NOT speced in the counter may get one shotted. lol
Well I agree that that is the basic issue resists are strong... but resists effect tac and sci really. The tac ends up being a bit more effective cause they can ramp up dmg numbers.
Really if you had a on click power that had a 30s duration every 2-3 min... that gave you +300 to every offensive sci skill in the tree.... you don't think that would break through resists ?
Of course people NOT speced in the counter may get one shotted. lol
And there is nothing wrong with that...if you don't spec in the counters...sci should be able to kill you.
Comments
And taking away tac buff sci will make the ship choice completely invalidated, because Sci Ship Weapons Suck without sci skills being boosted to aid them. Now unless what you're really saying is let sci ships get a turn rate and speed boost get +1 tac console and mount DHCs THEN I could support what you want.
But otherwise you just want tac sci to be Garbage again like it was in 2.5 all the way through season 4.
i meant compared to eng fleet its an extremely powerful heal, but lets not deflect the main issues. Sci fleet is great, just a little too great since the healer class seems to be eng, and sci fleet > eng fleet imv
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I have 0 problem with it either.
I also want sci to do Better. The gap between them though isn't so mind blowing that tac needs a kick in the junk like lil mai kai over there is railing for. THAT is what I'm fighting with him over.
He's upset because tacs can put up #s apparently.
Lrn2read. Go reread my post and the abbreviation provided. You will see, TR3 there, not TBR3 there dassem.
for a tac to use TR3 fully, he can't use his TBR during it's uptime. Which is, quite frankly the only reliable dps dealer in the sci skills dept left for the tac. So while he's running TR3, he's not going to be doing any real damage, which completely mitigates the point of his captain assets. So he'll be sitting there spamming 3 DBBs and two overloads hoping for a Lucky Shot. Where instead he could have simply just cranked a TBR2 or 3 attack run out. Hence, why TR3 is better for a Sci Captain than it is for a tac.
That was the whole point of that part of the post. go back and read. I'll wait.
how about FBP3? I dunno what hit me, but my Raptor vapourized during it's alphastrike in 1 second by a tac/sci. Just enough time to get your PH or BFI started. (not that they would have done anything besides raising my hull resist from 35% to 45%, and negated 10% of the damage.
If you're running FBP3 you can't do the combo drunk put up there.
Even then though FBP3 doesn't get utterly terrifying unless you let loose an overload at the start of your alpha. (mind you this is especially common to down a shield eat a weapon battery and see what CRF does to the hull).
I've had the same thing happen from a Sci Sci when I pumped a BO2 down range that apparently rolled a miracle crit. I was dead before I even saw the damage number.
In PvP anymore people use TBR mainly for AoE damage. It can be enhanced w/debuff to a single target eg Omega 3 part bonus (reduces kinetic resists) or AoE debuffs like APB and it can be buffed via consoles/Tac Boffs/Tac Captain abilities. Also, when used w/aux2batt & tech doffs the push is next to nothing while the cooldown is reduced significantly. At this point I think a tac could use it to provide fairly consistant pressure hull damage w/torp spreads & TBR similarly to a TAC cruiser applying pressure AoE shield damage w/Tet Glider et al.
The 1st question is can a Sci Captain apply similar pressure damage. I don't think it can b/c it can't boost the torps/mines like a tac capt not to mention it currently can't debuff a target at the same rate a tac captain can buff an ability.
The 2nd question is what's the survivability difference between a Tac and a Sci Captain in the Sci Ship. This depends on the Sci ship and the rest of the boff layout as well as the rest of the team layout. Tbh, I don't fly sci ships often enough to know. But, if i had to guess given the ways a player can chain Shield Distro Doffs etc now it won't matter so much.
At that point you could have a 2nd tac in an escort and your sci in an escort (for debuff, psw interrupts, tb, and single target pressure damage) w/cruiser repair support. It's none standard but I don't think it's as bad an option as is being made out to be.
Getting back to the main OP I still think Sci Captains should have the potential to be the most effective at using Sci abilities on principle. I think Sci abilities in PvP should be more debuff/cc oriented than damage oriented. Single target abilities should be strong and AOE abilities should be weak to moderate w/stronger AoE abilities having much longer cooldowns.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
ok, missed that letter. anyway, I don't see how being a tac can be anything but an advantage in your scenario? So you slap your TR on your target, and then what? If it should happen to disable something, you're left to killing him by weapon fire, right? And a tac captai does more damage.
Well, I never had much luck with tykens anyway, so I have limited experience with it. My tac/sci was running a lot like an escort, +TBR damage, VM, SS, FBP and heals that can make any escort-tac jealous. Best use I've found of a sci ship since the revamp.
yes! sci captain levels of suck! well actually he will still be dealing more damage per shot and from other abilities
ether scenario is possible. depends on how good the team mates are. the beter the team mates, the less likly snb will be credited for a kill.
my lieing eyes tell me that tac buffed FBP and TBR do deal as much damage as i think they do. sure there are counters to the damage, those resists make a joke out of any damage by anything, for a wile. full aux FBP, when target takes a hint and stop shooting, then its aux to bat TBR3 time. if you run aux to bat, you might as well technician up, so you still have space for TSS3 or ST3, or HE3, or whatever.
when your not setup for kill mode, and have grav consoles and not particle consoles, you can run all the heals and support you want. theres that flexibility again, the tac doing just as much support as the sci can, and then swapping consoles and stations to brutalize alpha striking escorts.
but puging is were your beloved SNB has to most chance of accomplishing something :rolleyes: the more talented players, the less likely it is that it makes a difference.
im having a brain TRIBBLE, whats TR3? i was only ever trying to claim TBR3 did killer damage, to be clear.
ive explained the combo several times
1 wait to be alpha'ed
2 be alpha'ed, hit all tac buffs, hit FBP, have max aux.
3 target nearly kills self or stops fireing
4 when ether condition is met, A2B followed by TBR3
you have 30 seconds to do all this, its tricky.
Because sci ship weapons and tac boffs blow. You're better off with TBR2 or 3 (3 now since PSW3 sucks like a Thai hooker now). You won't be able to reliably get a kill, or disable a system (or 3) without an SNB present. You actually need the SNB to get the super drain combo to work properly fedside. (KDF side we both know there's no combo needed at all mind... just put on siphon drones
And the tac boosts to TR3s damage, since TR3s damage is So Bad in the first place, really don't help it.
The last first, I was referring to the tac boost to weapon damage.
SNB to make drain more viable? How? For noobs that carry a single repair ability only? All my chars carry at least two of these, usually three: EPtoS, RMCapacitator, shield battery, engi team. And with a ssci/sci trying to ruin my day, I have all the time in the world to activate them...
Sure, and without SNB that damage is a complete farce because he doesn't have the necessary particle gen consoles. It's actually More likely that the target will die with SNB than the tac buffs, in the case of this particular loadout.
Except he still has 0 way to remove enemy defensive buffs. So when he's running in full debuff bot mode it is flat out Inferior. It also doesn't have access to scattering field, nor Sci fleet, like a sci does. Meaning more of it's heals can and will be consumed, on damage that isn't otherwise Critical like it would be when a sci is on the field.
Okay, but when you use Aux to batt, you lose your aux for it's full duration. That means, your heals will be TRIBBLE. All so you can get your fbps quicker.
And Pugging is the Only Time, that tac damage matters when there is no SNB on the field. Because you Can Easily out cross heal even 5 alpha strikes from Escorts in this stupid TRIBBLE game. Without SNB, you have Nothing in high end fights because of the games Overhealing.
Tykens Rift 3.
Yes, the combo which is ludicrously expensive to get together, thanks to the borked exchange or the necessary opening of the wallet. One of the two. Also, this combo completely hoses your ability to contribute on the fly to your teams healing, leaving a nice big gaping hole in your teams defenses because you don't have Sci Fleet to supplement resists while your Transfer shields and hazards are either stuck at Low Aux settings, or kicked into their globals, in addition to being lower marked versions of themselves in order to maximise the FPB and TBR combo.
The build is also, extraoridinarily vulnerable to Vm assault SNBs, Target subs and Power Drains (via either siphon pods or TR3 with doffs) or worse all of the above. A shut down sci would completely Hose that setup.
It's not exactly like you are getting your cake and eating it too here.
How many repairs to how many subsystems can you fix at a time though. I can pretty much gaurantee you losing at least 2 sub systems if the TR Doff procs, you'll probably lose an emergency power, plus whatever subsystem gets Targeted, the SNB forces things to be on longer CD, including power recovery, as well as buff removal. Then there's VM which doesn't care what so ever about anything but Eng team (and that only works for 5 seconds and only fixes whatever is debuffed on the screen. not the subesquent doff procs, nor anything that lasts longer than 5 seconds) polaron drains regardless as well. It leaves your ship a complete Gimp, during the duration of TR3, particularly because you are probably also being held in a tractor beam and sensor scanned as if all of the above was not insurance enough. God forbid you get 2 ships doing this to you, cooridinating their Target subs, and god forbid if both of their doffs for TR proc, because then you are just one pair of torp spreads away from being knocked into oblivion.
If there's a second SNB on the field as well against your favor you're really boned. SNB's effects are exponential the more of them there are on the field. Tac stacks rather linearly, which is why you only see up to 2 in a given Serious Team, vs 3 sci captains at a time in other setups. (now the ideal imo thanks to Stupid Doffs is 3 sci and 2 tacs, because engis really didn't gain in durability what everyone else did, in damage, debuffs, and still got good self heals)
@Havam, the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is not the I Win Button you make it out to be. Surely it is good. But the Fleet Patrol Escort is seemingly on par with the Attack Ship, give or take a few minor disadvantages. ( Click Here )
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
When you read this be thinking BUFF sci... and likely Engi.... DO NOT think nerf tac. Frankly if tthe tac buffs did nothing for sci and engi offensive skills... there would be ZERO reason to ever and and frankly it would be very dumb to ever fly anything other then an escort.
I love my escorts... but its nice to make the other ships work as well.
A nerf would pigeon hole tacs into one ship.
Sci works very well in an escort.... Sci works very well in a cruiser... cause sensor scan and subnuke work no matter the ship.
If 3/4 of the ship choices gain a bonus on 1-3 tac Bridge officer skills... and the other 1/4 gain a bonus on 5-6 boff skills... well you would be crazy to fly that other 3/4 of the options.
Tac works fine... Mai is simply and perhaps understandably annoyed that sci sci feels so terrible right now... healing is simply to crazy and resists are to high. For a sci sci to take advantage of any of there debuffs in a real way. In a team setup... one escort isn't enough to break healing anymore... you need 2... and sometimes a third tac in a cruiser or sci to push through is needed as well... when the sci was able to control more and cause real havok you didn't need 3-4 ship focus fire to break a teams healing... really even with that sort of high level fire power you are still forced to switch targets 3-5 times these days to try to catch the other side at a weak point somewhere... there is no real sci to force a weak point anymore....
Sci skills NEED a buff....
Another thing that perhaps needs to happen is Sci Captain Skills need a buff...
Engi is even more pathetic really IMO... healing is strong enough right now that having the engi backup oh no buttons on your healer isn't really all that important... so running another sci in a cruiser for subnuke... or another tac in a cruiser for more dmg is a better way to go....
Consider thinking about new Doffs to offset some of these issues as well... You guys did a sensor scan doff... perhaps its time to expand on that idea.
Mai Kai suggested added a enemy debuff to dampening field... perhaps something like that could be added through doffs ?
IMO I think something like photo fleet could be deleted and replaced with a Sci Boost ability... that would increase for a period of time Sci Effect... No one seriously likes photo fleet anyway... and the reduction of spam would be appreciated by many. Making a replacment boost sci kills in a real way would be a boon for Sci Sci.
Don't take away my Photo Fleet.. I like my Photo Fleet..
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Actually, I am going to second the motion of ditching Photonic Fleet it's not all that hot of a power in the first place. If i had to pick an ability of the sci's roster to replace with some kind of skill booster, this would be it in a nutshell.
really? the disable time, not the EPS rate? I admit this is new to me...
except that now klingon photonic ships have insane abilites.
photonic fleet needs to be removed or be made non-faction specific by using "neutral" npc ships as the reinforcments.
or completely changed into a science specific boosting power. although even if this happens i'm still converened that the tac captain will be able to do it better. (with the current way science powers are utterly useless due to resists)
We know, allegedly they are going to be looking into resists, so think about solutions in that mind set. That way the sci captain isn't just going to /faceroll his targets and the tac captain is not unnecessarily kicked in the junk and relegated back to being completely worthless in a sci ship.
aux to bat kills your aux for only like 10 seconds, the duration of TBR iirc. during those 10 seconds you are likely to be focusing entirely on keeping your target hit by every possible pulse. don't think its gonna be to big of a problem to have no aux for anything else at that time.
im not trying to say tac/sci is some god combo that has no weaknesses and downideds, it clearly does. its meant to do 1 thing well, kill through shields as hard as it can. but you also swap consoles, weapons, stations all in about 30 seconds during a match so you can be a quazi sci/sci, supporting, healing and befuddling if thats more needed on a team. now it cant do that quite as well as a sci/sci, but its got its Mr Hide alternate personality there waiting to terrorize.
its the same reason i like tac/cruisers, they can have an all beam array setup to focus on healing and dealing more pressure damage then an eng can, or they can put on their single cannons or DHCs and contribute a tone of damage, wile still being able to have at least some team usefulness.
this cant be said enough. there is nothing wrong with tacs, they are great, and functioning well. engineers are basically irreverent, and sci's are 1 or 2 trick ponies. nerfing tacs would mean thier are 3 underwhelming, inadequate captain types.
It's 10 seconds though that you effectively have 0 aux heals. That can be well, very bad if people figure out your buff rotation cycles.
sure it can do the console swap thing (and why don't we have Decompiler consoles yet seriously).
I completely sympathize with liking tac cruisers. I have one myself that I'm rather fond of, as I'm fond of the tac sci. I'm not knocking tac sci's prowess when built on a very narrow framework like that is. The problem is outside of that framework, there's really nothing else to run on a tac sci.
Kind of like how there's not much you can really do with sci sci, beyond a power drain boat, or Soccer Hax build.
Sci skills direly need love, and photonic fleet needs to go so sci can boost their debuff abilities.
I must have missed something while I was away. What does the Klingon PF have now?
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
those 10 seconds are gonna be spent keeping the enemy ship hit by pulses. just like an escort if gonna focus on alpha striking his target with the exclusion of other concerns. you can do this FBP/A2B/TBR combo to multiple people at once, who ever is close by or shooting at you. though its hard to keep more then 1 person hit with the full amount of pulses. i ve seen a tac/sci fly into a fed ball and left everyone with half thier hull gone or worse, try mitigating that before it gets multiple people killed. you just gotta hope you have team support, or your isolated enough to be able to do your thing without getting shot in the back when you aux is low. its just a built in disadvantage when you have such a min maxed setup
i think we basically agree, sci captains are what need help, the rest of this is just debating HOW effective ether setup is. i just think tac/sci's are more deadly then then you do, and i have yet to run into a sci/sci that was more then just annoying, and am unconvinced they are relevant currently. they are only deadly when i have no support and the sci ship brought an escort with him
This brings me back to my old argument that the class only stuff and skills in general need an overall especially have you ever heard a Klingon Captain in any series say Attack Pattern Whatever? No its not a Klingon method plus Klingons do not use the metric system so Km is not what it should say to us on KDF toons as well... Wow I could go on but yeah you could look at it from the threads topic of tactical boosting science... Science is not useless in fact one of my still usable science methods of dps especially in a bop is a aux battery + sensor scan + attack pattern beta... This not only boosts the science officer who does this but it benefits a whole team because the target is being debuffed for anyone who attacks it. However when you look at alpha strike it only benefits the tactical officer which maybe what the OP was trying to originally say.
I would be up for it if the systems in which these 3 classes operate were changed for the better so especially if you take a side step to ground combat... If you have special ground skills like say the Vulcans, Letheans, Gorn, Orions just to name a few. A lot of these have little or not benefit from engineering or science class only skills but if you go take a look at how a tactical officer performs with their kits and class only skills they far outshine the other 2 classes. Some might say as always even though I know what I am talking about prime example is take a tactical lethean and a science lethean and both give them the fri 13th doff. Do whatever you would play a science with as their kit and test out your numbers. Then take a fire team kit or an operative kit and use the striketeam/fire on my mark/battle strategies/target optics/ambush method then hit rapture and if you notice it will kill most things on contact and then hit your tactical inititiative which will then let you use the ability non stop until that 20 seconds is over with. Where as if you are an engineer or a science officer you cannot pull this off unless you have a tact willing to coordinate with you atleast for the tact init timer but as far as the damage you won't get anywhere close to that. For all these ground skills its pretty similar I was just using an example of the highest damage combination you can currently pull out versus each class/race/ground skill.
Well I agree that that is the basic issue resists are strong... but resists effect tac and sci really. The tac ends up being a bit more effective cause they can ramp up dmg numbers.
Really if you had a on click power that had a 30s duration every 2-3 min... that gave you +300 to every offensive sci skill in the tree.... you don't think that would break through resists ?
Of course people NOT speced in the counter may get one shotted. lol
And there is nothing wrong with that...if you don't spec in the counters...sci should be able to kill you.