Ive was out in the weekend so no posting, but now I've returned, this is an interesting thread Ill chime on in.
An Engineer can make any ship survive better than any other profession can, and deal more damage than a sci captain can.
A Tactical can make any ship deal more damage than any other profession can.
A science can... perform worse than any other profession in all ship types.
The argument with SNB and SS is too weak. They come around once every few minutes and is cleared with one counter.
SNB is like a tacscort with a 3 minute CD on his BeamOverload. (And yes, SNB fails about as often as BO, maybe more often, due to a wast supply of oh-**** buttons).
Maybe you can argue that tac performs better because the game is majority-wise dps oriented, but I still see a lot of shutdowns in pvp through drains/vm/holds etc. Tac should dps more its the dps class so I would go with:
I personally would go away from direct dmg on science ship abilities and make them debuffs.
Tachyon beam = shield breach, debuffs the target shield dmg reduction for duration.
Resists would reduce the duration of the debuff, cleared by science team. Duration is improved by Aux. Ideally, a tachyon beam 1 would counter Emergency Power to Shields 1 + 50 shield power effect.
Charged Particle Burst = disables cloak, debuffs the target and prevents shields to be healed by natural regen or abilities for the duration.
Resists would reduce the duration of the debuff, cleared by science team. Duration is improved by Aux.
But hopefully keep some damage abilities that a tac can take advantage of.
If tacticals didn't boost science ships there would be no reason to run a tac/sci. One ninth of the possible ship/career combinations would become obsolete.
1: Because tactical captains should be viable in every ship.
This way you don't have completely boring gameplay.
It opens up a unique combat style, the dps wizard, sci sci is the Debuff Wizard. Trekkies don't seem to grasp that you need this variety.
And it still boggles my mind that people don't. Sci sci is more of the debuff wizard, and you should be loading your ships consoles out accordingly. (gravitons instead of Partcles for example)
Exactly these two points, if you starting nerfing tacs increase on non-weapon abilities or "space magic" you'll suddenly lose a lot of variety in the game.
Basically if it gets to the state (or currently is) where tacs are seen as outperforming scis in sci ships, buff the sci* not nerf the tac!
*Quick suggestions as to how:
Sci captains innate passive bonus to sci ability duration?
Sci capains innate passive cooldown reduction to ALL boff abilities (5%?) so not only improving sci in sci but sci in all ship class' meaning more variety.
My 2 ec's
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Your Ramming Speed III deals 52098 (99235) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Remus.
And you are fallin right into the trap of # peen syndrome Mai. The thing is, the work that sci sci is supposed to do vs tac sci are two different roles, as I already covered.
Telling this to Mai Kai is like trying to teach a fish to swim
If tacticals didn't boost science ships there would be no reason to run a tac/sci. One ninth of the possible ship/career combinations would become obsolete.
As opposed to useless scis making 1/3 of the combos obsolete?
Saying this about Mai Kai proves you are either a troll, or completely new at this game.
Telling this to Mai Kai is like trying to teach a fish to swim
Wrong... you should say 2 years
As opposed to useless ships making 1/3 of the combos obsolete?
And yet he's ragin like a lil girl that tacs are "more useful" Clearly he's doing something wrong. Lemme guess kai you're still trying to run a torp boat.
Sci and tac pilots focus on very different things. It's why the sci scort is frankly Fail, post f2p because tac debuffs don't actually work anymore. Ya'll can say "oh man my sci scort is awesome" till you are blue in the face. It will neverever put up the #s of a good tac scort. Never.
Two of it's abilities are also gimped right out of the gate due to low aux on a scort.
Kai's worried about Tac Dps numbers. Kai seems to think this is some how a problem.
Kai clearly, isn't building his ships according to what sci are supposed to be good for. The best way to build a sci, is the same as it always was. Debuffs. Only now, you aren't going to get Tac like #s of damage and kills like you could back in the /faceroll cpb days.
DPS Wizards also, by the way? Suck. I'd know, I play one of the best tac scis running, and I put the sci ship away before PSW3 died because it's not as good as a tac scort.
Debuff Wizards? Suck equally.
I played them both regularly. Both are Hosed, thanks to Cryptic's stupid policies fo making the game as /faceroll happy as possible.
And yet he's ragin like a lil girl that tacs are "more useful" Clearly he's doing something wrong.
Clearly? Ever consider the possibility that this game is not perfectly balanced? Nah...
The point is that any job a sci captain can do, can be done better by a tac captain in the exact same setup. This is ofc ok in an escort, but shouldn't the sci captain have the upper hand somewhere? Like in a sciship?
Anyway, even if I didn't have my own experience to back up my opinion, I would trust in the judgement of the main TSI sci... They've fried my TRIBBLE too many times for me not to take them seriously... (with and without sci spam)
Clearly? Ever consider the possibility that this game is not perfectly balanced? Nah...
The point is that any job a sci captain can do, can be done better by a tac captain in the exact same setup. This is ofc ok in an escort, but shouldn't the sci captain have the upper hand somewhere? Like in a sciship?
Anyway, even if I didn't have my own experience to back up my opinion, I would trust in the judgement of the main TSI sci... They've fried my TRIBBLE too many times for me not to take them seriously... (with and without sci spam)
Keep telling yourself that, and maybe it will be true.
Go take 3 tacs into a premade and pit them against a Real Team, tell me how bad you get rolled. I'll wait.
Now go take 3 sci. And go see how much more even the fight is. For all of Mais whining and crying about how useless sci captains are, if TSI had a match against the Pandas, they would take 3 sci captains to the field faster than I can call someone a faceroller.
No the game isn't, and that' smy point. All Sci Ships Suck Hard. All Of Them. Equally and for differing reasons. Tac Sci, because there is literally only One Semi Reliable DPS sci skill they can use. (TBR). Sci because there is only one zone denial that works Semi Reliably and that is TBR (with gravitons) and exactly one reliable non captain skill debuff (Viral Matrix), and Engi Sci sucks because the only quick CD heal they have access to is ST3.
Mai is whining and wanting the good old days if cpb3 and torp spread back, where Tac Scorts were completely Useless by comparison, and that tac scis are completely laugh worthy by comparison.
Frankly, Mai is repeatedly ignoring what sci do best. which is debuff. You put a tac in a debuff setup, he's going to be completely useless. "But he bufffasdfjklafdsjlafdjkl;asfvjkl;XZDSFvgFDSJKL:fdbv dfd" yeah sure. he buffs... he buffs skills that are using gravitons.. and sitll does Jack and TRIBBLE for dps while doing it. Sci on the other hand, gee look SNB is a debuff.. mmm stacking a debuff and zone denial.. what is that? Oh look Synergy! What does the tac lack in that situation? Oh Look Synergy! Tell me which would you rather have, with a straight face a TRIBBLE Clown Graviton Tac Sci, who can't even hurt the target he just kicked out, and slammed with VM. Or a Sci that just kicked them out, hit them with VM and then robbed them of every defensive buff on the soon to be poor victim?
And yet he's ragin like a lil girl that tacs are "more useful" Clearly he's doing something wrong. Lemme guess kai you're still trying to run a torp boat.
Sci and tac pilots focus on very different things. It's why the sci scort is frankly Fail, post f2p because tac debuffs don't actually work anymore. Ya'll can say "oh man my sci scort is awesome" till you are blue in the face. It will neverever put up the #s of a good tac scort. Never.
Two of it's abilities are also gimped right out of the gate due to low aux on a scort.
Kai's worried about Tac Dps numbers. Kai seems to think this is some how a problem.
Kai clearly, isn't building his ships according to what sci are supposed to be good for. The best way to build a sci, is the same as it always was. Debuffs. Only now, you aren't going to get Tac like #s of damage and kills like you could back in the /faceroll cpb days.
DPS Wizards also, by the way? Suck. I'd know, I play one of the best tac scis running, and I put the sci ship away before PSW3 died because it's not as good as a tac scort.
Debuff Wizards? Suck equally.
I played them both regularly. Both are Hosed, thanks to Cryptic's stupid policies fo making the game as /faceroll happy as possible.
WOW! such hate at me because all i said is i think that tactical captain powers should only effect/increase weapon damage.
if i were a tactical captain in my current science ship, itd be doing insanely better then a sci captain. and thats fine with me in this sense. my current science ship is my dps recon, 2 cannons, duel beam bank, 2 turrets and rapid fire. DPS from weapons.
there is no way to build a "debuff" science ship in this game anymore because the only debuff there is on the science side now is viral matrix.
it is not aux dependant. try taking that in an mvam, or maybe science team 3, or maybe shockwave 1 (theyre all not aux dependant so you can keep 100+ weapon power and not worry about aux) and since the only shockwave to have been hit hard by the recent fix was 3, the mvam never had to worry about it.
i think a science escort is 10x more useful in the current state of the game then a science sci ship. and if you absoultly must have a science ship for the almighty viral matrix 3, stick a tacitcal captian or engineering captain in it of the extra dps or tanks ability. a sci captian would be a waste, hes better off offering support in a science cruiser.
p2w to the rescue!
need a shockwave? take a photon torp and the shockwave console
need some confusion? take ams!
need some awesome insanely good movement debuffs? take graviton pulse!
and the best part! all of these can be taken by ANYONE!
you keep talking of science debuff powers, please list them and how theyre better with a sci then a tactical captian at the helm of a science ship.
scramble sensors? laughable and useless compaired to ams. ss1 works well in most situations, sure high aux helps but isnt required for the desired effect.
charged partical burst? damage is totally laughable for the cooldown and bridge officer slots it/they take. that new duty officer that also might have a chance to trigger an aoe jam sensors is nice in theory but too un-reliable to be useful. only really nifty feature is the force decloak to flush out would be alpha strikers.
photonic shockwave? who doesnt like a 45 second recharge torpedo that has to be used on a target with 3km and sure, it in theory has a stun, but never mind that you can use your science team or engineering team and that all it really does is break an extend shields which can be used 30 seconds later again. also never mind that attack omega and aux to dampiners completely nullfiy the stun and damage! YAY! (dont forget! its not aux dependant and the tacitcal captain can make them better at the damage that sucks!)
tykens rift? well power drains are all broken/not working as intended at the moment so possibly has a place for a DEDICATED drain power build, but even then using this with energy siphon isnt possible. they share a global cooldown!
gravity wells? well.. why use something that sucks so bad at sucking? it cant really hold pets, the damage it deals is laughable (even when boosted by tactical powers which make no sense) because even a tiny bit of shields stop 90% of the damage. YAY!
tractor beam repulsors? well not really a crowd control power since it hits only 3 people at a time, has a low active time and can be nullified by 3(!) different powers. but sure, itll deal damage real good.... if your a tactical (once again being a sci with a control power is pointless because the tacitcal offcier does it better!)
tractor beams? well its not a crowd control power but yeah. everyone including pets can take this.
am i missing any "crowd control" powers? i fail to see how any of these powers aren't better with a tacitcal in a science ship then a science in a science ship, and the reason why! because the tactical can boost all the damage that is delt by the ones that can deal damage. while the science... can not.
so... yeah. i suppose i dont know anything about science... please inform me how a science is better with those skills then a tactical.
-awaiting his teaching-
and please, keep in mind that CAPTAIN debuffs are different from BRIDGE OFFICER debuffs. a sci captain can use his snb from any ship. just like a tactical captain should be able to boost the weapons damage of any ship (but oh wait! he boosts ALL damage!)
you flatter me good sir! i'm just a lowly science captain that wants a place in the game other then "strip that guy on demand!" (and by that i mean the snb because dont forget that there are snb doffs and jem shield/deflector/engine set on bug ships and cardy ships that can do this too just not on demand.)
you flatter me good sir! i'm just a lowly science captain that wants a place in the game other then "strip that guy on demand!" (and by that i mean the snb because dont forget that there are snb doffs and jem shield/deflector/engine set on bug ships and cardy ships that can do this too just not on demand.)
dude, you still do just fine whenever i target you, thats for sure.
and like i alluded to earlier, a lot of these guys haven't been reading your posts for 2 years plus..... they forget that experience counts for so much.
WOW! such hate at me because all i said is i think that tactical captain powers should only effect/increase weapon damage.
if i were a tactical captain in my current science ship, itd be doing insanely better then a sci captain. and thats fine with me in this sense. my current science ship is my dps recon, 2 cannons, duel beam bank, 2 turrets and rapid fire. DPS from weapons.
there is no way to build a "debuff" science ship in this game anymore because the only debuff there is on the science side now is viral matrix.
it is not aux dependant. try taking that in an mvam, or maybe science team 3, or maybe shockwave 1 (theyre all not aux dependant so you can keep 100+ weapon power and not worry about aux) and since the only shockwave to have been hit hard by the recent fix was 3, the mvam never had to worry about it.
i think a science escort is 10x more useful in the current state of the game then a science sci ship. and if you absoultly must have a science ship for the almighty viral matrix 3, stick a tacitcal captian or engineering captain in it of the extra dps or tanks ability. a sci captian would be a waste, hes better off offering support in a science cruiser.
p2w to the rescue!
need a shockwave? take a photon torp and the shockwave console
need some confusion? take ams!
need some awesome insanely good movement debuffs? take graviton pulse!
and the best part! all of these can be taken by ANYONE!
you keep talking of science debuff powers, please list them and how theyre better with a sci then a tactical captian at the helm of a science ship.
scramble sensors? laughable and useless compaired to ams. ss1 works well in most situations, sure high aux helps but isnt required for the desired effect.
charged partical burst? damage is totally laughable for the cooldown and bridge officer slots it/they take. that new duty officer that also might have a chance to trigger an aoe jam sensors is nice in theory but too un-reliable to be useful. only really nifty feature is the force decloak to flush out would be alpha strikers.
photonic shockwave? who doesnt like a 45 second recharge torpedo that has to be used on a target with 3km and sure, it in theory has a stun, but never mind that you can use your science team or engineering team and that all it really does is break an extend shields which can be used 30 seconds later again. also never mind that attack omega and aux to dampiners completely nullfiy the stun and damage! YAY! (dont forget! its not aux dependant and the tacitcal captain can make them better at the damage that sucks!)
tykens rift? well power drains are all broken/not working as intended at the moment so possibly has a place for a DEDICATED drain power build, but even then using this with energy siphon isnt possible. they share a global cooldown!
gravity wells? well.. why use something that sucks so bad at sucking? it cant really hold pets, the damage it deals is laughable (even when boosted by tactical powers which make no sense) because even a tiny bit of shields stop 90% of the damage. YAY!
tractor beam repulsors? well not really a crowd control power since it hits only 3 people at a time, has a low active time and can be nullified by 3(!) different powers. but sure, itll deal damage real good.... if your a tactical (once again being a sci with a control power is pointless because the tacitcal offcier does it better!)
tractor beams? well its not a crowd control power but yeah. everyone including pets can take this.
am i missing any "crowd control" powers? i fail to see how any of these powers aren't better with a tacitcal in a science ship then a science in a science ship, and the reason why! because the tactical can boost all the damage that is delt by the ones that can deal damage. while the science... can not.
so... yeah. i suppose i dont know anything about science... please inform me how a science is better with those skills then a tactical.
-awaiting his teaching-
and please, keep in mind that CAPTAIN debuffs are different from BRIDGE OFFICER debuffs. a sci captain can use his snb from any ship. just like a tactical captain should be able to boost the weapons damage of any ship (but oh wait! he boosts ALL damage!)
Because you're being stupid and whiny and we both know it. You're a better player than that.
Yes, and the state of debuffs in this game has exactly what to do with the issue of "tac dps sci sckilalfjdsl;kjafdjkl;afdzadsjl;bhjkld;zbfjkl;b jkl;fdjkl;bc" ?
Or, the sci captain could use Tykens 3, and Doffs (which by the way work extremely well with the doff proc. You should try multiple ships doing that some time. It's stupidly effective compared to the other cmdr options) Also, Vm3? LOL You want VM1, as it hits the multiple subsystems faster, and works better with the doff proc than VM3 does.
Tykens 3. "but a tac will do moar dps with it zomg zomg " No, he won't, because the DPS of TR3 even with Doffs is pathetic. +50 percent of effectively 0 is still 0.
You don't even need Esiphon to get some fairly terrifying results out of TR3 with the TR Doff. I use this one regularly on my sci sci. I also recommend it highly for klink Sci Bops, because of the drain power. You can use it in conjunction with Esiphon as well, if you fire off Siphon first, and wait for the shared CD to kick off. Then hit with TR. Their energy levels will not have recovered, and the TR will drain from where their power levels were as the Esiphon shared CD came off. Throw on Lolarons and the usual target sub spam. Sub nuke off their EPTS. Hilarity Ensues. here is TR3 by itself with a Single Doff Proc. (I'll let you guess what 3 is like) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3exTMYSahMw
Grav Well, Sucks period. For both classes. It sucks for Engis too, because it's garbage. "
Zomg tac can do dps with it too!" Yeah... how. You can't keep targets in it enough to get damage out of it in the first place. SO yeah, both sucking like a Thai Hooker buddy.
TBR: the Repel on TBR2 is insane at max aux and 3 graviton consoles. It's not terribly difficult to pick the target you want repelled out, and kick them out of combat, nor is it terribly difficult, to use this same ability to kick Danubes off. Evasive towards the bugger you want repelled out, even if they have ID ranks (6 or more) you can often isolate the target especially with the TBR doff that knocks down engine power. (which can proc with every pulse incase you didn't know) long as you push the target, or targets +7.5km away from each other you just congratulations, opened a huge gaping maw in their defenses by taking ES out of the equation. Or if the target doesn't have ID ranks... you just kicked his TRIBBLE so far out of friendly range that you and your escort friend, and your sub nuke should be able to finish the job.
Tacs on the other hand? Sure, you can do a repel job with TBR. But you're gibbing your best asset to do it. Damage. With 3 graviton gens on a tac's TBR you will never get the potential 10k crit chains with it at best you'll get 3ks. So if you use it to your best ability, you have 3 particle gens. Sure you can still push targets, but it's no where as reliable as 3 gravitons and pegged aux. Damage however is much more easily healed, than Distance is traveled in this game. So your use of TBR becomes more of a Finisher Move, than part of your teams offensive strategy.
Also if you can't see how the ability to kick 60 percent of an enemy team around like soccer balls at a time is useful then maybe you should reconsider your skill level kid.
Scramble: Mark 2 and 3 can still be irritating. Your target also probably has no ranks in Sensors to knock the duration down. It can slow down heals, or enemy tbr attempts, warp plas, or carrier pets. It was always a stupid mechanic though, destined to be either a perma lockdown, like it was before, or a perma pile of crapshoot like it is now.
CPB, yeah it blows. Because of Resistance Skills. It's not the tacs fault that happened either.
PSW. Sucks. For everyone. Forever now. Ever since Team Abilities became usable during stun phases, stuns place in pvp went out the window. This again is not Tac Buffs fault. This is Craptic Studios's fault.
No you don't know anything about Sci Mai. You had your favorite one trick pony build robbed from you, and you've been crying about it ever since. It's getting rather old really.
Seriously, I want to know, how does the state of debuff being poor mean that tac sci is overpowered and needs a kick in the junk get justified in your mind?
Debuffs need to be strengthened in this game. There is no disagreement there. Right now, most sci skills are totally garbage. The answer in your mind apparently is to make Tac Sci, blow even harder than it already does (because if the Debuff, or DPS ability of a given sci skill will Suck for one, it will only suck slightly less for the other). The answer should be to boost debuffs.
Maybe you should go read my sci thread. You clearly need the help.
Because you're being stupid and whiny and we both know it. You're a better player than that.
Yes, and the state of debuffs in this game has exactly what to do with the issue of "tac dps sci sckilalfjdsl;kjafdjkl;afdzadsjl;bhjkld;zbfjkl;b jkl;fdjkl;bc" ?
Or, the sci captain could use Tykens 3, and Doffs (which by the way work extremely well with the doff proc. You should try multiple ships doing that some time. It's stupidly effective compared to the other cmdr options) Also, Vm3? LOL You want VM1, as it hits the multiple subsystems faster, and works better with the doff proc than VM3 does.
Tykens 3. "but a tac will do moar dps with it zomg zomg " No, he won't, because the DPS of TR3 even with Doffs is pathetic. +50 percent of effectively 0 is still 0.
You don't even need Esiphon to get some fairly terrifying results out of TR3 with the TR Doff. I use this one regularly on my sci sci. I also recommend it highly for klink Sci Bops, because of the drain power. You can use it in conjunction with Esiphon as well, if you fire off Siphon first, and wait for the shared CD to kick off. Then hit with TR. Their energy levels will not have recovered, and the TR will drain from where their power levels were as the Esiphon shared CD came off. Throw on Lolarons and the usual target sub spam. Sub nuke off their EPTS. Hilarity Ensues. here is TR3 by itself with a Single Doff Proc. (I'll let you guess what 3 is like) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3exTMYSahMw
Grav Well, Sucks period. For both classes. It sucks for Engis too, because it's garbage. "
Zomg tac can do dps with it too!" Yeah... how. You can't keep targets in it enough to get damage out of it in the first place. SO yeah, both sucking like a Thai Hooker buddy.
TBR: the Repel on TBR2 is insane at max aux and 3 graviton consoles. It's not terribly difficult to pick the target you want repelled out, and kick them out of combat, nor is it terribly difficult, to use this same ability to kick Danubes off. Evasive towards the bugger you want repelled out, even if they have ID ranks (6 or more) you can often isolate the target especially with the TBR doff that knocks down engine power. (which can proc with every pulse incase you didn't know) long as you push the target, or targets +7.5km away from each other you just congratulations, opened a huge gaping maw in their defenses by taking ES out of the equation. Or if the target doesn't have ID ranks... you just kicked his TRIBBLE so far out of friendly range that you and your escort friend, and your sub nuke should be able to finish the job.
Tacs on the other hand? Sure, you can do a repel job with TBR. But you're gibbing your best asset to do it. Damage. With 3 graviton gens on a tac's TBR you will never get the potential 10k crit chains with it at best you'll get 3ks. So if you use it to your best ability, you have 3 particle gens. Sure you can still push targets, but it's no where as reliable as 3 gravitons and pegged aux. Damage however is much more easily healed, than Distance is traveled in this game. So your use of TBR becomes more of a Finisher Move, than part of your teams offensive strategy.
Also if you can't see how the ability to kick 60 percent of an enemy team around like soccer balls at a time is useful then maybe you should reconsider your skill level kid.
Scramble: Mark 2 and 3 can still be irritating. Your target also probably has no ranks in Sensors to knock the duration down. It can slow down heals, or enemy tbr attempts, warp plas, or carrier pets. It was always a stupid mechanic though, destined to be either a perma lockdown, like it was before, or a perma pile of crapshoot like it is now.
CPB, yeah it blows. Because of Resistance Skills. It's not the tacs fault that happened either.
PSW. Sucks. For everyone. Forever now. Ever since Team Abilities became usable during stun phases, stuns place in pvp went out the window. This again is not Tac Buffs fault. This is Craptic Studios's fault.
No you don't know anything about Sci Mai. You had your favorite one trick pony build robbed from you, and you've been crying about it ever since. It's getting rather old really.
Seriously, I want to know, how does the state of debuff being poor mean that tac sci is overpowered and needs a kick in the junk get justified in your mind?
Debuffs need to be strengthened in this game. There is no disagreement there. Right now, most sci skills are totally garbage. The answer in your mind apparently is to make Tac Sci, blow even harder than it already does (because if the Debuff, or DPS ability of a given sci skill will Suck for one, it will only suck slightly less for the other). The answer should be to boost debuffs.
Maybe you should go read my sci thread. You clearly need the help.
yes the anwser should be to boost debuffs. but since the first patch a couple years ago science powers that dont deal damage have been slowly and slowly become more and more useless.
i dont see how having a tacitcal officers power only increaseing weapon damage completely nullifying the ability of tactical officers in science ships. they would still be able to deal damage and use science powers, just not as their main source of damage. why is this such a bad thing to want tacticals to be good at dealing weapon damage and not all damage? if you want to deal damage as a tactical officer then the ideal remark should be "go fly an escort or cruiser" but nope! its "go fly whatever you want because your powers increase ALL damage you do reguardless of how you do it!" that isnt very balancing IMO.
it should be-
Damage,
tactical in an escort for the best damage, tactical in a cruiser for the best damage AND healing/survivability, tactical in a science ship for the best damage and crowd control. NOW! looking at that the escorts and cruisers get their best damage from weapons, yet its too hard to imagine if a science ship piloted by a tactical captain only got his major damage from the weapons too? why is that so hard to imagine?
healing,
engineer in a cruiser should be the best for healing (currently is), engineer in a science ship should be the best healer/self surviving and crowd control (which amazingly it is since most heals require aux as do most science powers) and then engineers in an escort are great at self surviving and dps.
crowd control,
science in a science ship (in theory) should be the best at this! wrong. a tactical can do a lot more dps and all the crowd controlling science captian could do. a sci in a cruiser! cant do any crowd control that an engineer or a tactical couldnt do. possibly even better because they can do more damage or live longer doing it. (this though is the best option for a science captain with the current bridge officer selection)
and a science in an escort.... well i like to think theyre fun to fly but in any serious engagments why waste the science escort when a tacitcal escort would to better?
i dont know why you're saying i'm being stupid. i simply stated that anything the science captain could do in the science ship a tactical could do the same if not better. your only counter has been-
"well take debuffs nooob!"
i then clearly listed all the crowd control powers and how a tacitcal could use them to much better effect then a science captain. i then also pointed out how not only could a tactical use them he would 99% of the time be dealing more damage. why? because tactical captains increase all damage and i dont think thats right.
if they make the debuffs better, it'll only make them better for tacitcal captains as well. so the issue then comes again, why bother with a science captain when the tactical captain does it all and more!
the ONLY thing a science captain has over the tactical is the snb. which as i pointed out could be somewhat lessened by the taking of snb doffs and or jem/cardy ships with the right gear.
YES it is nice to have a snb on demand. but in those situations the science captain is better in a cruiser because he can contribute to the team more with heals then in a science ship, without sacraficing his own survivablility.
so my point is still there, you have not convinced me why a tactical captain NEEDS to be able to deal that extra damage with science powers when his guns would do that just as well in a science ship with minimal loss of crowd control if set up right.
a science captain gains no benifit from taking crowd control skills because he doesnt increase anything about them over any of the other captains.
yes the anwser should be to boost debuffs. but since the first patch a couple years ago science powers that dont deal damage have been slowly and slowly become more and more useless.
i dont see how having a tacitcal officers power only increaseing weapon damage completely nullifying the ability of tactical officers in science ships. they would still be able to deal damage and use science powers, just not as their main source of damage. why is this such a bad thing to want tacticals to be good at dealing weapon damage and not all damage? if you want to deal damage as a tactical officer then the ideal remark should be "go fly an escort or cruiser" but nope! its "go fly whatever you want because your powers increase ALL damage you do reguardless of how you do it!" that isnt very balancing IMO.
it should be-
Damage,
tactical in an escort for the best damage, tactical in a cruiser for the best damage AND healing/survivability, tactical in a science ship for the best damage and crowd control. NOW! looking at that the escorts and cruisers get their best damage from weapons, yet its too hard to imagine if a science ship piloted by a tactical captain only got his major damage from the weapons too? why is that so hard to imagine?
healing,
engineer in a cruiser should be the best for healing (currently is), engineer in a science ship should be the best healer/self surviving and crowd control (which amazingly it is since most heals require aux as do most science powers) and then engineers in an escort are great at self surviving and dps.
crowd control,
science in a science ship (in theory) should be the best at this! wrong. a tactical can do a lot more dps and all the crowd controlling science captian could do. a sci in a cruiser! cant do any crowd control that an engineer or a tactical couldnt do. possibly even better because they can do more damage or live longer doing it. (this though is the best option for a science captain with the current bridge officer selection)
and a science in an escort.... well i like to think theyre fun to fly but in any serious engagments why waste the science escort when a tacitcal escort would to better?
i dont know why you're saying i'm being stupid. i simply stated that anything the science captain could do in the science ship a tactical could do the same if not better. your only counter has been-
"well take debuffs nooob!"
i then clearly listed all the crowd control powers and how a tacitcal could use them to much better effect then a science captain. i then also pointed out how not only could a tactical use them he would 99% of the time be dealing more damage. why? because tactical captains increase all damage and i dont think thats right.
if they make the debuffs better, it'll only make them better for tacitcal captains as well. so the issue then comes again, why bother with a science captain when the tactical captain does it all and more!
the ONLY thing a science captain has over the tactical is the snb. which as i pointed out could be somewhat lessened by the taking of snb doffs and or jem/cardy ships with the right gear.
YES it is nice to have a snb on demand. but in those situations the science captain is better in a cruiser because he can contribute to the team more with heals then in a science ship, without sacraficing his own survivablility.
so my point is still there, you have not convinced me why a tactical captain NEEDS to be able to deal that extra damage with science powers when his guns would do that just as well in a science ship with minimal loss of crowd control if set up right.
a science captain gains no benifit from taking crowd control skills because he doesnt increase anything about them over any of the other captains.
It does TRIBBLE them over. Tacs in sci ships are down at LEAST one console in pvp, they are down a weapon slot. they are completely depleted of the ability to use Dual Heavy Cannons, which are Mandatory to do real damage in pvp, for tacs without buffed up sci skills.
Crowd Control:
No a tac can't. If a tac goes all graviton, or all TR3 happy he completely hoses his ability to do DPS. If you aren't capable of understanding that then I know know how you ever made it to the big leagues.
No you haven't, you posted up a bunch of words thinking that would dissuade me from my argument as if I were some face rolling scrub because I'm not in the cult of TSI. You posted nothing demonstrating it. I on the other hand? I posted why a sci is better for zone denial and debuffs because it completely hoses the only thing tacs are good for. Where as the sci on the other hand, if it goes particle happy, can still utilize the debuff power of snb. Meaning the sci is actually MORE versatile there.
A tac going the debuff route would be TRIBBLE. A sci going that way would be Smart. hence, why I'm saying you're being stupid. Because it's so stupidly obvious that there ARE things sci do better.
Oh Sci also are better healers too. Thanks to Sci Fleet and Scattering field. They can afford to throw more stuff around than a tac sci can who has to be more selfish to maintain durability cycles.
Totally agree with Kai. Sci captain powers offer virtually nothing compared to engineer and tacs. In a sci ship, a tac can do everything a sci can + extra damage. A sci captain's powers add NOTHING to a sci ship's officer skills...period.
PVP..at least you have 1 useful skill (and only one)...subnuke. PVE, you are never better than another captain class.
That said, I love sci ground skills....
Ghosty,
Regardless of the BO skills a tac takes, he will do the same CC and more damage of a sci captain with the same BO skills. The sci captain's skills offer nothing to CC - no use even going there.
Totally agree with Kai. Sci captain powers offer virtually nothing compared to engineer and tacs. In a sci ship, a tac can do everything a sci can + extra damage. A sci captain's powers add NOTHING to a sci ship's officer skills...period.
PVP..at least you have 1 useful skill (and only one)...subnuke. PVE, you are never better than another captain class.
That said, I love sci ground skills....
Ghosty,
Regardless of the BO skills a tac takes, he will do the same CC and more damage of a sci captain with the same BO skills. The sci captain's skills offer nothing to CC - no use even going there.
Yes. and if he goes full on Debuff and zone denial he screws over his best asset in the process.
Go try a 3 graviton tac recon with TBR. And look at how sorry the damage out put is compared to 3 particle gens. I'll wait.
the science captain brings to the table!.... snb, and scatter field, sensor scan. the sensor scan isnt particularly useful with this setup. its handy for the team but ever since the skill tree change the super debuffing high aux sensor scan is gone. sensor consoles do not do anything for this power.
the scatter field in theory helps reduce the damage to everything around you (helps with the build)
the snb is well the snb. this build runs at high aux to make the most of its heals and science powers.
now! stick a tactical in there and not only can he do all the healing, and crowd control (although limited that it is in this particualr setup) he can still do it, AND all the extra damage offered by the damaging boosting powers he brings.
winner- possibly the science but an engieer would make more of this particular build.
dps recon build-
vm3(1), shockwave 1(3), sci team 3, transfer 2, hazzard 2, polarize 1 tractor 1.
rapid fire 1, beam overload 1/high yield 1, tactical team 1
weapons-
2 cannons, duel beam bank, 2 turrets, mine launcher or torp launcher of choice.
the idea with this build is obvious. run high weapon power, medium aux and shoot everything that moves.
Science captains- dont really bring any benifit to this build since all the offensive choices dont require aux power to still do their best.
Tacitcal captains- has all the upsides AND all the extra damage boosting that they bring.
winner- tactical captains!
BUT WAIT! you say those are obviously themed to do healing and dps? well yeah! because there really isnt anything else to do.
Intrepid refit-
vm3/shockwave 3/grav well 3, vm1/shockwave 1/grav well 1, science team 1, charged partical burst 1, transfer 2, hazzard 1, tractor beam 1.
aux to sif 1, epts1
tactical team 1, attack pattern delta 1/some sort of torp power
weapons- 2 beams, 3 torps and a mine (similar to the nebula weapons).
loads of science right!? well! lets see-
science captains... give absoulutly no benifit to taking this much science.. sure i could swap the cpb 1 for the scramble sensors.... but why bother when an ams would do twice the job for little the cost?
tactical captains! get all the benifits of taking these heavy science powers AND boost their damage!
yeah... so even taking multiple heavy sci powers.... the tactical does more with them then the science captain could and its his freaking class of ship.
now as ive said before.... imagine if they did make "debuffs" better... well thatd just make tactical captains that much better.....
Yes. and if he goes full on Debuff and zone denial he screws over his best asset in the process.
Go try a 3 graviton tac recon with TBR. And look at how sorry the damage out put is compared to 3 particle gens. I'll wait.
since zone denial has no meaning in this game, and the only debuffs are captain powers.... you have no argument with that. the tacitcal captain can crowd control as good as a science captain at full aux and STILL deal all the damage and more then a science captain using science powers. AND the tactical will deal more damage with his weapons (this is how it should be). he sacrafices nothing the science captain would have to pick either extra damage or crowd control. the tactical gets both!
tractor beam repulsors are not really a crowd control power or a debuff power. the ability to push a target halfway across the map is not the best use of tractor repulsors, and i cant tell you the number of times its failed to do anything because the target has one of its 3 immunities running.
if you use the tbr for super push, its a one trick shot. the team will see this and quickly follow who you're pushing. (tsi enounters this and follows the guy being pushed).
it only hits 3 targets at a time. i'm not even sure it 100% hits the guy youre targeting. if it does then its great for the damage. not the push.
sure a tacitcal could choose to push his target halfway across the map and not do a whole of damage. that would be the trade off. OR he could still do more damage then a science and push the target halfway across the map where a science captain can only choose to do one or the other.
Ghosty,
The damage done by the tac in that setup is the still greater than the sci's damage with no loss in utility.... slightly bad is still better than really bad...
the science captain brings to the table!.... snb, and scatter field, sensor scan. the sensor scan isnt particularly useful with this setup. its handy for the team but ever since the skill tree change the super debuffing high aux sensor scan is gone. sensor consoles do not do anything for this power.
the scatter field in theory helps reduce the damage to everything around you (helps with the build)
the snb is well the snb. this build runs at high aux to make the most of its heals and science powers.
now! stick a tactical in there and not only can he do all the healing, and crowd control (although limited that it is in this particualr setup) he can still do it, AND all the extra damage offered by the damaging boosting powers he brings.
winner- possibly the science but an engieer would make more of this particular build.
dps recon build-
vm3(1), shockwave 1(3), sci team 3, transfer 2, hazzard 2, polarize 1 tractor 1.
rapid fire 1, beam overload 1/high yield 1, tactical team 1
weapons-
2 cannons, duel beam bank, 2 turrets, mine launcher or torp launcher of choice.
the idea with this build is obvious. run high weapon power, medium aux and shoot everything that moves.
Science captains- dont really bring any benifit to this build since all the offensive choices dont require aux power to still do their best.
Tacitcal captains- has all the upsides AND all the extra damage boosting that they bring.
winner- tactical captains!
BUT WAIT! you say those are obviously themed to do healing and dps? well yeah! because there really isnt anything else to do.
Intrepid refit-
vm3/shockwave 3/grav well 3, vm1/shockwave 1/grav well 1, science team 1, charged partical burst 1, transfer 2, hazzard 1, tractor beam 1.
aux to sif 1, epts1
tactical team 1, attack pattern delta 1/some sort of torp power
weapons- 2 beams, 3 torps and a mine (similar to the nebula weapons).
loads of science right!? well! lets see-
science captains... give absoulutly no benifit to taking this much science.. sure i could swap the cpb 1 for the scramble sensors.... but why bother when an ams would do twice the job for little the cost?
tactical captains! get all the benifits of taking these heavy science powers AND boost their damage!
yeah... so even taking multiple heavy sci powers.... the tactical does more with them then the science captain could and its his freaking class of ship.
now as ive said before.... imagine if they did make "debuffs" better... well thatd just make tactical captains that much better.....
No that tac can't do healing. Tac healers are Failboats. They have no way to keep themselves alive sufficiently without double tac teams on hand to cycle to themselves almost constantly. It's not even a contest, the Tac fails miserably in the Nebula not only due to this factor, but also due to the simple fact that without agility and speed the tac Dies Horribly in combat.
First, VM3? Not a good idea. TBR3 is better for DPS. Also I already covered why VM1 is > Vm3 earlier. Shockwave Sucks across the board, TBR2 will out damage it by a healthy margin, Tac or Sci. Weapons, better off with 3 DBBs. Much more boff efficient, and a great deal less range dependent.
Gee, you are building a sci ship for DPS, and you're ******** that a tac does better in this loadout. /facepalm
Intrepid: gee lets see you doubled up on Shutdowns, that don't do DPS in the case of VM3 and 1. (Because GW3 is pants. change that out for Doff Tyken 3) You have cpb on there lol better off with an ST2 there, and having double tractor 1s. Now which is better. Sci or tac.
Gee, the tac would have almost 0 dps boosts to sci skills there, he is down on Firepower. While the sci ohhhh that's right zomg zomg zomg it has SNB, which synergizes well with 2 tractors and VMs! zomg zomg OP OP OP
And of course that build ONLY works in PVP and ONLY if you have a decent level of coordination whereas the tac is good regardless of skill/team/scenario.
Is there somthing wrong with this, not really, this just alows the player to get the most benefit out of there ship.
Should tac damge buff Sci powerr i think yes it is a damage, and a tac capt in a sv should do more dmage than a sci capt.
I will agree with sci capt got nerfed hard, and sensor scan use to be 2x as good as it is now.
It would be great if sci had a buff like APA, but buffs defbuffs by 50%, so shield drainer and other old science debuff builds that use to be efferctive before f2p get to see the light of day again.
flash note.
leave tac capt alone
Buff sci capt add somthing that buff debuffs
Nova Core
ParadiseKiller
House of Beautiful Orions Zeadonouse ToLate
And of course that build ONLY works in PVP and ONLY if you have a decent level of coordination whereas the tac is good regardless of skill/team/scenario.
No that tac can't do healing. Tac healers are Failboats. They have no way to keep themselves alive sufficiently without double tac teams on hand to cycle to themselves almost constantly. It's not even a contest, the Tac fails miserably in the Nebula not only due to this factor, but also due to the simple fact that without agility and speed the tac Dies Horribly in combat.
how is the science captain any better then at self surviving? you cant honestly think that scatter field will save your life in combat do you? it takes teamwork to survive. if youre that squishy then take an rsp2 instead of an extend 2. and if you noticed i said outright that the nebula is more an engineer ship then tacitcal but it can be used for other roles (thanks to the universal bo) that allows it to adapt to a variaty of roles. jack of all trades- master of none.
First, VM3? Not a good idea. TBR3 is better for DPS. Also I already covered why VM1 is > Vm3 earlier. Shockwave Sucks across the board, TBR2 will out damage it by a healthy margin, Tac or Sci. Weapons, better off with 3 DBBs. Much more boff efficient, and a great deal less range dependent.
i go with vm3 for the "crowd control" and since its absoultly no dependance on aux its a great skill to take for ANY captain that wants a little surprise for the enemy. ive always had great success with my cannons, they have a high arc. and combined with rapid fire 1 they are nothing to ignore. you say vm1 is faster at hitting subsystems. this isnt always the best thing, vm3 lasts nearly twice as long (and still benifits from the doffs as much as vm1) while the vm3 is still going on!. in theory vm3 can take out all 3 subsytems at the same time for up to 3-4 seconds while the vm1+doffs can not do that. this is more useful in combat as it immobilizes your target, prevents them from healing, and stops them from hurting you. a tacitcal can use this just as well as a science if not better since you seem to think tacitcal captains are so squishy.
Gee, you are building a sci ship for DPS, and you're ******** that a tac does better in this loadout. /facepalm
and i admited that at the end that the dps recon and the healing nebula work better with captains mroe fit to their role. AND then i pointed out a pure science ship and how a science captain is not the best choice for it. i was trying to make the point that any ship can be fitted to their captain and be excellent at it except the science captain.
Intrepid: gee lets see you doubled up on Shutdowns, that don't do DPS in the case of VM3 and 1. (Because GW3 is pants. change that out for Doff Tyken 3) You have cpb on there lol better off with an ST2 there, and having double tractor 1s. Now which is better. Sci or tac.
all the choices i put with / were intedned to be take of those and not its lower counterpart- take a wave 3, no need for a wave 1 so take a vm1 and grav well 1 instead. take a grav well 3, take a wave 1 and vm1 insteand. take a vm 3 then take a well1 and wave 1 instead. i apologize if that wasnt made clear. yes, something might be better then a cpb1 but the point was to show taking a variaty of science powers and how they all fail in compairason to a tactical running the same set up.
the point was- pure science ship with a wide selection of science powers where non of them share a global cooldown and the tactical still makes more of it then a science captain would.
you seem to be arguing that a tactical should be able to deal more damage in a science ship then a science captain and i agree. the thing is, the tactical captain will be increasing the damage output via weapons and science powers while the science captain will be increasing nothing. nada. zilch. for absolutly no benifit over the tactical in the same ship.
why are you ignoring this? as it stands the science captain, and even before the shockwave 3 nerf (because EVERYONE could take shockwave 3 since the bridge offcer trading was allowed and the duty officer for sale allows you to buy shockwave 3) there is no point in taking a science captain in anything except for the snb. (and as ive said multiple times, there are ways to have it wihtout a science captain)
you claim i'm whining about science's being nerfed. yet youre apparently complaining at the idea that a tactical wouldnt be able to boost science damage powers (but still boost their weapon damage on top of the sensor anylasis) isnt "fair".
yet im the one who's whining when all i asked was, why shouldnt tactical captain powers only boost weapons damage.
it would balance the 3 captains out immensly i feel, and then we could start on the balancing of the powers themselves.
Gee, the tac would have almost 0 dps boosts to sci skills there, he is down on Firepower. While the sci ohhhh that's right zomg zomg zomg it has SNB, which synergizes well with 2 tractors and VMs! zomg zomg OP OP OP
he is only down on firepower if you set him up that way, my dps recon is a good example of a science ship that would be perfect for a tacitcal captain. high dps from weapons, with a selection of science powers that will allow him to hold/stun/immobilize his prey so his hard hitting WEAPONS would do the work.
put a vm1 and tractor beam 1 with a science captain in an mvam if you want synergy. awww thats right, its a waste because tacticals are the best in escorts....
the irony that its perfectly ok for a tact to kill anything with anything is astounding when its mentioned that maybe killing anything with everything isnt so balanced. -rolls eyes-
It would be great if sci had a buff like APA, but buffs defbuffs by 50%, so shield drainer and other old science debuff builds that use to be efferctive before f2p get to see the light of day again.
this would be a great begining to a compromise. if scatter field also gave some sort of super boost to science type powers (rather a resist which i never quite understood) then itd be almost as good as a tactical captain.....
if all science powers werent so heavly nerfed that reguardless of what you do any player who's pvp'd will have at a minimum of 50% resist to all your abilites.
This thread reminds of a quote from a strip from "Sandra and Woo."
"Arguing with people on the internet is only slightly more productive than counting the ants in your garden."
By and large, crowd control's point is to reduce the fighting effectiveness of a group of enemies to make killing them substantially easier, IE, it swings the balance of a fight in your favor through exotic means. Holds, Repels, Stuns, debuffs, all of these help make dealing damage easier.
The problem with Sci cappy vs Tac cappy in a Science ship is that the utility of dealing MORE damage while making a target more vulnerable to damage is far more synergistic than debuffing and debuffing some more with a bit of group DR buffing (from Scattering Field and Science Fleet) while doing far less useful amounts of damage. Especially when the aim of the game is to setup a kill that requires, absolutely requires, a huge amount of damage to be dealt to a target in a tiny window of vulnerability. A Tactical Captain in the Science ship is going to be a much more useful force multiplier than a Science Captain.
That last point is exacerbated by the fact that half of the most useful science powers are of some form of damage (Tachyon Beam, Charged Particle Burst, and Tractor Beam Repulsors, to name a few), which means their effectiveness in the role debuffing a target is improved far more dramatically by a Tactical Captain than a Science Captain. So far as my experiences in the RSV (from both sides of the Captain coin here) are concerned, the only thing the Sci cappy in the ship has going for him is lots of powers that annoy an opponent into using defenses which you can, once every few minutes, completely remove with Sub-Nuc to create a period for another teammate to kill. A period that is, for a lone Science Captain, painfully short lived when a nearby *anything* clears the sub-nuc with a Sci team and drops, say, extend shields on the target.
Right, I think there's a decent point in that wall o' text, but if I had to summarize, it'd be Tac Captains improve most Sci powers more than Sci cappys, while also improving Sci killing capability creating a situation that is so very much Win-Win that it makes Sci/Sci a virtual trap option by comparison.
So, you guys think that 3 tac is > 3 sci captains now in pvp.
Nah, just that three Tactical Captains in Science Ships are going to be more useful than three Science Captains in those same ships. Three Science Captains in Escorts are a whole different can of worms, though.
Yeah, you're morons. The lot of you.
No need for personal attacks, but hey, if you feel that somehow stomping your feet in the dust and yelling "No! You!" at the top of your lungs makes your point more valid, well, I guess you could try that rather unconventional tactic.
So, you guys think that 3 tac is > 3 sci captains now in pvp.
Yeah, you're morons. The lot of you.
good team i feel would have 3 tactical captains, 1 cruiser, 2 escort. 1 science cruiser and 1 engineering cruiser.
plenty of heals, one timely snb for the really hard targets, and a sustained damage tactical cruiser for laying down the pressure. maybe even swap that second tactical escort with another tactical cruiser or science cruiser if youre going against a team that you know runs a lot of rsps.
and like corsair said, if those 3 captains were in the same ships then yes, the tacitcal science ship is more useful. the ideal team never has more then 2 science captains.
Nah, just that three Tactical Captains in Science Ships are going to be more useful than three Science Captains in those same ships. Three Science Captains in Escorts are a whole different can of worms, though.
No need for personal attacks, but hey, if you feel that somehow stomping your feet in the dust and yelling "No! You!" at the top of your lungs makes your point more valid, well, I guess you could try that rather unconventional tactic.
Yeah... 3 squishy fragile ships that are unsustainable in a team, vs 3 ships carrying debuffs, (evne if they are gimpy) and good strong heals.
Both packing Nukes.
Vs... 3 ships packing, -okay- self durability, and -okay- dps.
I know which I'd rather have on my teams thanks.
There's a reason premades aren't fielding 3 tac sci sihps. and if they had the choice, they go straight for sci sci between the two. Or they go sci cruisers.
Know why? Cause tac dps? Isn't good enough to pierce extend spam and cross heals.
If you wanna be completely stupid, and ignore that go right ahead. But at least keep your trap shut in regards to balance discussions.
Comments
How about not a double post...? Edit button was invented.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
trollin bro? whats that all about?
Maybe you can argue that tac performs better because the game is majority-wise dps oriented, but I still see a lot of shutdowns in pvp through drains/vm/holds etc. Tac should dps more its the dps class so I would go with:
But hopefully keep some damage abilities that a tac can take advantage of.
Exactly these two points, if you starting nerfing tacs increase on non-weapon abilities or "space magic" you'll suddenly lose a lot of variety in the game.
Basically if it gets to the state (or currently is) where tacs are seen as outperforming scis in sci ships, buff the sci* not nerf the tac!
*Quick suggestions as to how:
Sci captains innate passive bonus to sci ability duration?
Sci capains innate passive cooldown reduction to ALL boff abilities (5%?) so not only improving sci in sci but sci in all ship class' meaning more variety.
My 2 ec's
Your Ramming Speed III deals 52098 (99235) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Remus.
And yet he's ragin like a lil girl that tacs are "more useful" Clearly he's doing something wrong. Lemme guess kai you're still trying to run a torp boat.
Sci and tac pilots focus on very different things. It's why the sci scort is frankly Fail, post f2p because tac debuffs don't actually work anymore. Ya'll can say "oh man my sci scort is awesome" till you are blue in the face. It will never ever put up the #s of a good tac scort. Never.
Two of it's abilities are also gimped right out of the gate due to low aux on a scort.
Kai's worried about Tac Dps numbers. Kai seems to think this is some how a problem.
Kai clearly, isn't building his ships according to what sci are supposed to be good for. The best way to build a sci, is the same as it always was. Debuffs. Only now, you aren't going to get Tac like #s of damage and kills like you could back in the /faceroll cpb days.
DPS Wizards also, by the way? Suck. I'd know, I play one of the best tac scis running, and I put the sci ship away before PSW3 died because it's not as good as a tac scort.
Debuff Wizards? Suck equally.
I played them both regularly. Both are Hosed, thanks to Cryptic's stupid policies fo making the game as /faceroll happy as possible.
Clearly? Ever consider the possibility that this game is not perfectly balanced? Nah...
The point is that any job a sci captain can do, can be done better by a tac captain in the exact same setup. This is ofc ok in an escort, but shouldn't the sci captain have the upper hand somewhere? Like in a sciship?
Anyway, even if I didn't have my own experience to back up my opinion, I would trust in the judgement of the main TSI sci... They've fried my TRIBBLE too many times for me not to take them seriously... (with and without sci spam)
Keep telling yourself that, and maybe it will be true.
Go take 3 tacs into a premade and pit them against a Real Team, tell me how bad you get rolled. I'll wait.
Now go take 3 sci. And go see how much more even the fight is. For all of Mais whining and crying about how useless sci captains are, if TSI had a match against the Pandas, they would take 3 sci captains to the field faster than I can call someone a faceroller.
No the game isn't, and that' smy point. All Sci Ships Suck Hard. All Of Them. Equally and for differing reasons. Tac Sci, because there is literally only One Semi Reliable DPS sci skill they can use. (TBR). Sci because there is only one zone denial that works Semi Reliably and that is TBR (with gravitons) and exactly one reliable non captain skill debuff (Viral Matrix), and Engi Sci sucks because the only quick CD heal they have access to is ST3.
Mai is whining and wanting the good old days if cpb3 and torp spread back, where Tac Scorts were completely Useless by comparison, and that tac scis are completely laugh worthy by comparison.
Frankly, Mai is repeatedly ignoring what sci do best. which is debuff. You put a tac in a debuff setup, he's going to be completely useless. "But he bufffasdfjklafdsjlafdjkl;asfvjkl;XZDSFvgFDSJKL:fdbv dfd" yeah sure. he buffs... he buffs skills that are using gravitons.. and sitll does Jack and TRIBBLE for dps while doing it. Sci on the other hand, gee look SNB is a debuff.. mmm stacking a debuff and zone denial.. what is that? Oh look Synergy! What does the tac lack in that situation? Oh Look Synergy! Tell me which would you rather have, with a straight face a TRIBBLE Clown Graviton Tac Sci, who can't even hurt the target he just kicked out, and slammed with VM. Or a Sci that just kicked them out, hit them with VM and then robbed them of every defensive buff on the soon to be poor victim?
WOW! such hate at me because all i said is i think that tactical captain powers should only effect/increase weapon damage.
if i were a tactical captain in my current science ship, itd be doing insanely better then a sci captain. and thats fine with me in this sense. my current science ship is my dps recon, 2 cannons, duel beam bank, 2 turrets and rapid fire. DPS from weapons.
there is no way to build a "debuff" science ship in this game anymore because the only debuff there is on the science side now is viral matrix.
it is not aux dependant. try taking that in an mvam, or maybe science team 3, or maybe shockwave 1 (theyre all not aux dependant so you can keep 100+ weapon power and not worry about aux) and since the only shockwave to have been hit hard by the recent fix was 3, the mvam never had to worry about it.
i think a science escort is 10x more useful in the current state of the game then a science sci ship. and if you absoultly must have a science ship for the almighty viral matrix 3, stick a tacitcal captian or engineering captain in it of the extra dps or tanks ability. a sci captian would be a waste, hes better off offering support in a science cruiser.
p2w to the rescue!
need a shockwave? take a photon torp and the shockwave console
need some confusion? take ams!
need some awesome insanely good movement debuffs? take graviton pulse!
and the best part! all of these can be taken by ANYONE!
you keep talking of science debuff powers, please list them and how theyre better with a sci then a tactical captian at the helm of a science ship.
scramble sensors? laughable and useless compaired to ams. ss1 works well in most situations, sure high aux helps but isnt required for the desired effect.
charged partical burst? damage is totally laughable for the cooldown and bridge officer slots it/they take. that new duty officer that also might have a chance to trigger an aoe jam sensors is nice in theory but too un-reliable to be useful. only really nifty feature is the force decloak to flush out would be alpha strikers.
photonic shockwave? who doesnt like a 45 second recharge torpedo that has to be used on a target with 3km and sure, it in theory has a stun, but never mind that you can use your science team or engineering team and that all it really does is break an extend shields which can be used 30 seconds later again. also never mind that attack omega and aux to dampiners completely nullfiy the stun and damage! YAY! (dont forget! its not aux dependant and the tacitcal captain can make them better at the damage that sucks!)
tykens rift? well power drains are all broken/not working as intended at the moment so possibly has a place for a DEDICATED drain power build, but even then using this with energy siphon isnt possible. they share a global cooldown!
gravity wells? well.. why use something that sucks so bad at sucking? it cant really hold pets, the damage it deals is laughable (even when boosted by tactical powers which make no sense) because even a tiny bit of shields stop 90% of the damage. YAY!
tractor beam repulsors? well not really a crowd control power since it hits only 3 people at a time, has a low active time and can be nullified by 3(!) different powers. but sure, itll deal damage real good.... if your a tactical (once again being a sci with a control power is pointless because the tacitcal offcier does it better!)
tractor beams? well its not a crowd control power but yeah. everyone including pets can take this.
am i missing any "crowd control" powers? i fail to see how any of these powers aren't better with a tacitcal in a science ship then a science in a science ship, and the reason why! because the tactical can boost all the damage that is delt by the ones that can deal damage. while the science... can not.
so... yeah. i suppose i dont know anything about science... please inform me how a science is better with those skills then a tactical.
-awaiting his teaching-
and please, keep in mind that CAPTAIN debuffs are different from BRIDGE OFFICER debuffs. a sci captain can use his snb from any ship. just like a tactical captain should be able to boost the weapons damage of any ship (but oh wait! he boosts ALL damage!)
have fun kill bad guys
you flatter me good sir! i'm just a lowly science captain that wants a place in the game other then "strip that guy on demand!" (and by that i mean the snb because dont forget that there are snb doffs and jem shield/deflector/engine set on bug ships and cardy ships that can do this too just not on demand.)
dude, you still do just fine whenever i target you, thats for sure.
and like i alluded to earlier, a lot of these guys haven't been reading your posts for 2 years plus..... they forget that experience counts for so much.
Because you're being stupid and whiny and we both know it. You're a better player than that.
Yes, and the state of debuffs in this game has exactly what to do with the issue of "tac dps sci sckilalfjdsl;kjafdjkl;afdzadsjl;bhjkld;zbfjkl;b jkl;fdjkl;bc" ?
Or, the sci captain could use Tykens 3, and Doffs (which by the way work extremely well with the doff proc. You should try multiple ships doing that some time. It's stupidly effective compared to the other cmdr options) Also, Vm3? LOL You want VM1, as it hits the multiple subsystems faster, and works better with the doff proc than VM3 does.
Tykens 3. "but a tac will do moar dps with it zomg zomg " No, he won't, because the DPS of TR3 even with Doffs is pathetic. +50 percent of effectively 0 is still 0.
You don't even need Esiphon to get some fairly terrifying results out of TR3 with the TR Doff. I use this one regularly on my sci sci. I also recommend it highly for klink Sci Bops, because of the drain power. You can use it in conjunction with Esiphon as well, if you fire off Siphon first, and wait for the shared CD to kick off. Then hit with TR. Their energy levels will not have recovered, and the TR will drain from where their power levels were as the Esiphon shared CD came off. Throw on Lolarons and the usual target sub spam. Sub nuke off their EPTS. Hilarity Ensues. here is TR3 by itself with a Single Doff Proc. (I'll let you guess what 3 is like) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3exTMYSahMw
Grav Well, Sucks period. For both classes. It sucks for Engis too, because it's garbage. "
Zomg tac can do dps with it too!" Yeah... how. You can't keep targets in it enough to get damage out of it in the first place. SO yeah, both sucking like a Thai Hooker buddy.
TBR: the Repel on TBR2 is insane at max aux and 3 graviton consoles. It's not terribly difficult to pick the target you want repelled out, and kick them out of combat, nor is it terribly difficult, to use this same ability to kick Danubes off. Evasive towards the bugger you want repelled out, even if they have ID ranks (6 or more) you can often isolate the target especially with the TBR doff that knocks down engine power. (which can proc with every pulse incase you didn't know) long as you push the target, or targets +7.5km away from each other you just congratulations, opened a huge gaping maw in their defenses by taking ES out of the equation. Or if the target doesn't have ID ranks... you just kicked his TRIBBLE so far out of friendly range that you and your escort friend, and your sub nuke should be able to finish the job.
Tacs on the other hand? Sure, you can do a repel job with TBR. But you're gibbing your best asset to do it. Damage. With 3 graviton gens on a tac's TBR you will never get the potential 10k crit chains with it at best you'll get 3ks. So if you use it to your best ability, you have 3 particle gens. Sure you can still push targets, but it's no where as reliable as 3 gravitons and pegged aux. Damage however is much more easily healed, than Distance is traveled in this game. So your use of TBR becomes more of a Finisher Move, than part of your teams offensive strategy.
Also if you can't see how the ability to kick 60 percent of an enemy team around like soccer balls at a time is useful then maybe you should reconsider your skill level kid.
Scramble: Mark 2 and 3 can still be irritating. Your target also probably has no ranks in Sensors to knock the duration down. It can slow down heals, or enemy tbr attempts, warp plas, or carrier pets. It was always a stupid mechanic though, destined to be either a perma lockdown, like it was before, or a perma pile of crapshoot like it is now.
CPB, yeah it blows. Because of Resistance Skills. It's not the tacs fault that happened either.
PSW. Sucks. For everyone. Forever now. Ever since Team Abilities became usable during stun phases, stuns place in pvp went out the window. This again is not Tac Buffs fault. This is Craptic Studios's fault.
No you don't know anything about Sci Mai. You had your favorite one trick pony build robbed from you, and you've been crying about it ever since. It's getting rather old really.
Seriously, I want to know, how does the state of debuff being poor mean that tac sci is overpowered and needs a kick in the junk get justified in your mind?
Debuffs need to be strengthened in this game. There is no disagreement there. Right now, most sci skills are totally garbage. The answer in your mind apparently is to make Tac Sci, blow even harder than it already does (because if the Debuff, or DPS ability of a given sci skill will Suck for one, it will only suck slightly less for the other). The answer should be to boost debuffs.
Maybe you should go read my sci thread. You clearly need the help.
yes the anwser should be to boost debuffs. but since the first patch a couple years ago science powers that dont deal damage have been slowly and slowly become more and more useless.
i dont see how having a tacitcal officers power only increaseing weapon damage completely nullifying the ability of tactical officers in science ships. they would still be able to deal damage and use science powers, just not as their main source of damage. why is this such a bad thing to want tacticals to be good at dealing weapon damage and not all damage? if you want to deal damage as a tactical officer then the ideal remark should be "go fly an escort or cruiser" but nope! its "go fly whatever you want because your powers increase ALL damage you do reguardless of how you do it!" that isnt very balancing IMO.
it should be-
Damage,
tactical in an escort for the best damage, tactical in a cruiser for the best damage AND healing/survivability, tactical in a science ship for the best damage and crowd control. NOW! looking at that the escorts and cruisers get their best damage from weapons, yet its too hard to imagine if a science ship piloted by a tactical captain only got his major damage from the weapons too? why is that so hard to imagine?
healing,
engineer in a cruiser should be the best for healing (currently is), engineer in a science ship should be the best healer/self surviving and crowd control (which amazingly it is since most heals require aux as do most science powers) and then engineers in an escort are great at self surviving and dps.
crowd control,
science in a science ship (in theory) should be the best at this! wrong. a tactical can do a lot more dps and all the crowd controlling science captian could do. a sci in a cruiser! cant do any crowd control that an engineer or a tactical couldnt do. possibly even better because they can do more damage or live longer doing it. (this though is the best option for a science captain with the current bridge officer selection)
and a science in an escort.... well i like to think theyre fun to fly but in any serious engagments why waste the science escort when a tacitcal escort would to better?
i dont know why you're saying i'm being stupid. i simply stated that anything the science captain could do in the science ship a tactical could do the same if not better. your only counter has been-
"well take debuffs nooob!"
i then clearly listed all the crowd control powers and how a tacitcal could use them to much better effect then a science captain. i then also pointed out how not only could a tactical use them he would 99% of the time be dealing more damage. why? because tactical captains increase all damage and i dont think thats right.
if they make the debuffs better, it'll only make them better for tacitcal captains as well. so the issue then comes again, why bother with a science captain when the tactical captain does it all and more!
the ONLY thing a science captain has over the tactical is the snb. which as i pointed out could be somewhat lessened by the taking of snb doffs and or jem/cardy ships with the right gear.
YES it is nice to have a snb on demand. but in those situations the science captain is better in a cruiser because he can contribute to the team more with heals then in a science ship, without sacraficing his own survivablility.
so my point is still there, you have not convinced me why a tactical captain NEEDS to be able to deal that extra damage with science powers when his guns would do that just as well in a science ship with minimal loss of crowd control if set up right.
a science captain gains no benifit from taking crowd control skills because he doesnt increase anything about them over any of the other captains.
It does TRIBBLE them over. Tacs in sci ships are down at LEAST one console in pvp, they are down a weapon slot. they are completely depleted of the ability to use Dual Heavy Cannons, which are Mandatory to do real damage in pvp, for tacs without buffed up sci skills.
Crowd Control:
No a tac can't. If a tac goes all graviton, or all TR3 happy he completely hoses his ability to do DPS. If you aren't capable of understanding that then I know know how you ever made it to the big leagues.
No you haven't, you posted up a bunch of words thinking that would dissuade me from my argument as if I were some face rolling scrub because I'm not in the cult of TSI. You posted nothing demonstrating it. I on the other hand? I posted why a sci is better for zone denial and debuffs because it completely hoses the only thing tacs are good for. Where as the sci on the other hand, if it goes particle happy, can still utilize the debuff power of snb. Meaning the sci is actually MORE versatile there.
A tac going the debuff route would be TRIBBLE. A sci going that way would be Smart. hence, why I'm saying you're being stupid. Because it's so stupidly obvious that there ARE things sci do better.
Oh Sci also are better healers too. Thanks to Sci Fleet and Scattering field. They can afford to throw more stuff around than a tac sci can who has to be more selfish to maintain durability cycles.
PVP..at least you have 1 useful skill (and only one)...subnuke. PVE, you are never better than another captain class.
That said, I love sci ground skills....
Ghosty,
Regardless of the BO skills a tac takes, he will do the same CC and more damage of a sci captain with the same BO skills. The sci captain's skills offer nothing to CC - no use even going there.
Yes. and if he goes full on Debuff and zone denial he screws over his best asset in the process.
Go try a 3 graviton tac recon with TBR. And look at how sorry the damage out put is compared to 3 particle gens. I'll wait.
my nebula hybrid healer
uses gravity well 3, science team 3, transfer shield 2, hazzard emitter 1,
tractor beam 1, transfer sheild 2.
tactical team 1, high yield/torp spread 2.
aux to sif 1, epts 1, extend shields 2.
the weapons,
2 fore torps, 1 after torp, 1 aft mine, 2 beam arrays.
the science captain brings to the table!.... snb, and scatter field, sensor scan. the sensor scan isnt particularly useful with this setup. its handy for the team but ever since the skill tree change the super debuffing high aux sensor scan is gone. sensor consoles do not do anything for this power.
the scatter field in theory helps reduce the damage to everything around you (helps with the build)
the snb is well the snb. this build runs at high aux to make the most of its heals and science powers.
now! stick a tactical in there and not only can he do all the healing, and crowd control (although limited that it is in this particualr setup) he can still do it, AND all the extra damage offered by the damaging boosting powers he brings.
winner- possibly the science but an engieer would make more of this particular build.
dps recon build-
vm3(1), shockwave 1(3), sci team 3, transfer 2, hazzard 2, polarize 1 tractor 1.
rapid fire 1, beam overload 1/high yield 1, tactical team 1
weapons-
2 cannons, duel beam bank, 2 turrets, mine launcher or torp launcher of choice.
the idea with this build is obvious. run high weapon power, medium aux and shoot everything that moves.
Science captains- dont really bring any benifit to this build since all the offensive choices dont require aux power to still do their best.
Tacitcal captains- has all the upsides AND all the extra damage boosting that they bring.
winner- tactical captains!
BUT WAIT! you say those are obviously themed to do healing and dps? well yeah! because there really isnt anything else to do.
Intrepid refit-
vm3/shockwave 3/grav well 3, vm1/shockwave 1/grav well 1, science team 1, charged partical burst 1, transfer 2, hazzard 1, tractor beam 1.
aux to sif 1, epts1
tactical team 1, attack pattern delta 1/some sort of torp power
weapons- 2 beams, 3 torps and a mine (similar to the nebula weapons).
loads of science right!? well! lets see-
science captains... give absoulutly no benifit to taking this much science.. sure i could swap the cpb 1 for the scramble sensors.... but why bother when an ams would do twice the job for little the cost?
tactical captains! get all the benifits of taking these heavy science powers AND boost their damage!
yeah... so even taking multiple heavy sci powers.... the tactical does more with them then the science captain could and its his freaking class of ship.
now as ive said before.... imagine if they did make "debuffs" better... well thatd just make tactical captains that much better.....
since zone denial has no meaning in this game, and the only debuffs are captain powers.... you have no argument with that. the tacitcal captain can crowd control as good as a science captain at full aux and STILL deal all the damage and more then a science captain using science powers. AND the tactical will deal more damage with his weapons (this is how it should be). he sacrafices nothing the science captain would have to pick either extra damage or crowd control. the tactical gets both!
tractor beam repulsors are not really a crowd control power or a debuff power. the ability to push a target halfway across the map is not the best use of tractor repulsors, and i cant tell you the number of times its failed to do anything because the target has one of its 3 immunities running.
if you use the tbr for super push, its a one trick shot. the team will see this and quickly follow who you're pushing. (tsi enounters this and follows the guy being pushed).
it only hits 3 targets at a time. i'm not even sure it 100% hits the guy youre targeting. if it does then its great for the damage. not the push.
sure a tacitcal could choose to push his target halfway across the map and not do a whole of damage. that would be the trade off. OR he could still do more damage then a science and push the target halfway across the map where a science captain can only choose to do one or the other.
winner- tactical captain.
The damage done by the tac in that setup is the still greater than the sci's damage with no loss in utility.... slightly bad is still better than really bad...
No that tac can't do healing. Tac healers are Failboats. They have no way to keep themselves alive sufficiently without double tac teams on hand to cycle to themselves almost constantly. It's not even a contest, the Tac fails miserably in the Nebula not only due to this factor, but also due to the simple fact that without agility and speed the tac Dies Horribly in combat.
First, VM3? Not a good idea. TBR3 is better for DPS. Also I already covered why VM1 is > Vm3 earlier. Shockwave Sucks across the board, TBR2 will out damage it by a healthy margin, Tac or Sci. Weapons, better off with 3 DBBs. Much more boff efficient, and a great deal less range dependent.
Gee, you are building a sci ship for DPS, and you're ******** that a tac does better in this loadout. /facepalm
Intrepid: gee lets see you doubled up on Shutdowns, that don't do DPS in the case of VM3 and 1. (Because GW3 is pants. change that out for Doff Tyken 3) You have cpb on there lol better off with an ST2 there, and having double tractor 1s. Now which is better. Sci or tac.
Gee, the tac would have almost 0 dps boosts to sci skills there, he is down on Firepower. While the sci ohhhh that's right zomg zomg zomg it has SNB, which synergizes well with 2 tractors and VMs! zomg zomg OP OP OP
Tac in a SV is a great combo
also
Sci in a escort is a great combo
( arguably the best in the hand a expert)
Is there somthing wrong with this, not really, this just alows the player to get the most benefit out of there ship.
Should tac damge buff Sci powerr i think yes it is a damage, and a tac capt in a sv should do more dmage than a sci capt.
I will agree with sci capt got nerfed hard, and sensor scan use to be 2x as good as it is now.
It would be great if sci had a buff like APA, but buffs defbuffs by 50%, so shield drainer and other old science debuff builds that use to be efferctive before f2p get to see the light of day again.
flash note.
leave tac capt alone
Buff sci capt add somthing that buff debuffs
ParadiseKiller
House of Beautiful Orions
Zeadonouse
ToLate
Not against smart players it doesn't.
i go with vm3 for the "crowd control" and since its absoultly no dependance on aux its a great skill to take for ANY captain that wants a little surprise for the enemy. ive always had great success with my cannons, they have a high arc. and combined with rapid fire 1 they are nothing to ignore. you say vm1 is faster at hitting subsystems. this isnt always the best thing, vm3 lasts nearly twice as long (and still benifits from the doffs as much as vm1) while the vm3 is still going on!. in theory vm3 can take out all 3 subsytems at the same time for up to 3-4 seconds while the vm1+doffs can not do that. this is more useful in combat as it immobilizes your target, prevents them from healing, and stops them from hurting you. a tacitcal can use this just as well as a science if not better since you seem to think tacitcal captains are so squishy.
and i admited that at the end that the dps recon and the healing nebula work better with captains mroe fit to their role. AND then i pointed out a pure science ship and how a science captain is not the best choice for it. i was trying to make the point that any ship can be fitted to their captain and be excellent at it except the science captain.
all the choices i put with / were intedned to be take of those and not its lower counterpart- take a wave 3, no need for a wave 1 so take a vm1 and grav well 1 instead. take a grav well 3, take a wave 1 and vm1 insteand. take a vm 3 then take a well1 and wave 1 instead. i apologize if that wasnt made clear. yes, something might be better then a cpb1 but the point was to show taking a variaty of science powers and how they all fail in compairason to a tactical running the same set up.
the point was- pure science ship with a wide selection of science powers where non of them share a global cooldown and the tactical still makes more of it then a science captain would.
you seem to be arguing that a tactical should be able to deal more damage in a science ship then a science captain and i agree. the thing is, the tactical captain will be increasing the damage output via weapons and science powers while the science captain will be increasing nothing. nada. zilch. for absolutly no benifit over the tactical in the same ship.
why are you ignoring this? as it stands the science captain, and even before the shockwave 3 nerf (because EVERYONE could take shockwave 3 since the bridge offcer trading was allowed and the duty officer for sale allows you to buy shockwave 3) there is no point in taking a science captain in anything except for the snb. (and as ive said multiple times, there are ways to have it wihtout a science captain)
you claim i'm whining about science's being nerfed. yet youre apparently complaining at the idea that a tactical wouldnt be able to boost science damage powers (but still boost their weapon damage on top of the sensor anylasis) isnt "fair".
yet im the one who's whining when all i asked was, why shouldnt tactical captain powers only boost weapons damage.
it would balance the 3 captains out immensly i feel, and then we could start on the balancing of the powers themselves.
he is only down on firepower if you set him up that way, my dps recon is a good example of a science ship that would be perfect for a tacitcal captain. high dps from weapons, with a selection of science powers that will allow him to hold/stun/immobilize his prey so his hard hitting WEAPONS would do the work.
put a vm1 and tractor beam 1 with a science captain in an mvam if you want synergy. awww thats right, its a waste because tacticals are the best in escorts....
the irony that its perfectly ok for a tact to kill anything with anything is astounding when its mentioned that maybe killing anything with everything isnt so balanced. -rolls eyes-
this would be a great begining to a compromise. if scatter field also gave some sort of super boost to science type powers (rather a resist which i never quite understood) then itd be almost as good as a tactical captain.....
if all science powers werent so heavly nerfed that reguardless of what you do any player who's pvp'd will have at a minimum of 50% resist to all your abilites.
"Arguing with people on the internet is only slightly more productive than counting the ants in your garden."
By and large, crowd control's point is to reduce the fighting effectiveness of a group of enemies to make killing them substantially easier, IE, it swings the balance of a fight in your favor through exotic means. Holds, Repels, Stuns, debuffs, all of these help make dealing damage easier.
The problem with Sci cappy vs Tac cappy in a Science ship is that the utility of dealing MORE damage while making a target more vulnerable to damage is far more synergistic than debuffing and debuffing some more with a bit of group DR buffing (from Scattering Field and Science Fleet) while doing far less useful amounts of damage. Especially when the aim of the game is to setup a kill that requires, absolutely requires, a huge amount of damage to be dealt to a target in a tiny window of vulnerability. A Tactical Captain in the Science ship is going to be a much more useful force multiplier than a Science Captain.
That last point is exacerbated by the fact that half of the most useful science powers are of some form of damage (Tachyon Beam, Charged Particle Burst, and Tractor Beam Repulsors, to name a few), which means their effectiveness in the role debuffing a target is improved far more dramatically by a Tactical Captain than a Science Captain. So far as my experiences in the RSV (from both sides of the Captain coin here) are concerned, the only thing the Sci cappy in the ship has going for him is lots of powers that annoy an opponent into using defenses which you can, once every few minutes, completely remove with Sub-Nuc to create a period for another teammate to kill. A period that is, for a lone Science Captain, painfully short lived when a nearby *anything* clears the sub-nuc with a Sci team and drops, say, extend shields on the target.
Right, I think there's a decent point in that wall o' text, but if I had to summarize, it'd be Tac Captains improve most Sci powers more than Sci cappys, while also improving Sci killing capability creating a situation that is so very much Win-Win that it makes Sci/Sci a virtual trap option by comparison.
Yeah, you're morons. The lot of you.
Nah, just that three Tactical Captains in Science Ships are going to be more useful than three Science Captains in those same ships. Three Science Captains in Escorts are a whole different can of worms, though.
No need for personal attacks, but hey, if you feel that somehow stomping your feet in the dust and yelling "No! You!" at the top of your lungs makes your point more valid, well, I guess you could try that rather unconventional tactic.
good team i feel would have 3 tactical captains, 1 cruiser, 2 escort. 1 science cruiser and 1 engineering cruiser.
plenty of heals, one timely snb for the really hard targets, and a sustained damage tactical cruiser for laying down the pressure. maybe even swap that second tactical escort with another tactical cruiser or science cruiser if youre going against a team that you know runs a lot of rsps.
and like corsair said, if those 3 captains were in the same ships then yes, the tacitcal science ship is more useful. the ideal team never has more then 2 science captains.
Yeah... 3 squishy fragile ships that are unsustainable in a team, vs 3 ships carrying debuffs, (evne if they are gimpy) and good strong heals.
Both packing Nukes.
Vs... 3 ships packing, -okay- self durability, and -okay- dps.
I know which I'd rather have on my teams thanks.
There's a reason premades aren't fielding 3 tac sci sihps. and if they had the choice, they go straight for sci sci between the two. Or they go sci cruisers.
Know why? Cause tac dps? Isn't good enough to pierce extend spam and cross heals.
If you wanna be completely stupid, and ignore that go right ahead. But at least keep your trap shut in regards to balance discussions.