Yeah... 3 squishy fragile ships that are unsustainable in a team, vs 3 ships carrying debuffs, (evne if they are gimpy) and good strong heals.
Both packing Nukes.
Vs... 3 ships packing, -okay- self durability, and -okay- dps.
I know which I'd rather have on my teams thanks.
There's a reason premades aren't fielding 3 tac sci sihps. and if they had the choice, they go straight for sci sci between the two.
wait, i dont understand what youre compairing here.
are you saying that the science are 3 squishy fragile ships that are unsustainable in a team against 3 tacitcal ships with strong heals? i mean.. its not like fire on my mark is a debuff.... ohhhh wait. sure, it sucks that tactical team removes it. but science team removes sensor scan. a ships is only as survivable as his skills and team allow him to be. the science captain has no extra heals that the tactical cant take and use just as well as the science captain.
how is a science captain anymore survivable then a tactical captain? as ive said, scatter field isnt a lifesaving tool you seem to think it is. those tacticals can run the debuffs just as well as the science captains.
ive hardly seen ANY premades run more then once science ship and ususally i see its an engineer. the science is in an escort or crusier. theres a reason NOONE is field 3 science ships of any kind and its because they suck as it currently stands.
wait, i dont understand what youre compairing here.
are you saying that the science are 3 squishy fragile ships that are unsustainable in a team against 3 tacitcal ships with strong heals? i mean.. its not like fire on my mark is a debuff.... ohhhh wait. sure, it sucks that tactical team removes it. but science team removes sensor scan. a ships is only as survivable as his skills and team allow him to be. the science captain has no extra heals that the tactical cant take and use just as well as the science captain.
how is a science captain anymore survivable then a tactical captain? as ive said, scatter field isnt a lifesaving tool you seem to think it is. those tacticals can run the debuffs just as well as the science captains.
ive hardly seen ANY premades run more then once science ship and ususally i see its an engineer. the science is in an escort or crusier. theres a reason NOONE is field 3 science ships of any kind and its because they suck as it currently stands.
I'm saying 3 Escorts period are squishy. sci or not. Sci Fleet. Scattering Field. The former is an incredibly strong shield resist that you'd have to be completely dense not to notice, the latter is an okay resist that at minimum shuts down bleedthrough damages completely. I would take 3 sci ships LONG before 3 escorts, even with sci's ships diminished prowess. Because they can heal. They have shut downs, and other tools escorts don't have. You couple sci fleet and SF with a sci ships innate shield healing, and healing capabilities and you're much better off than a sci scort is, when you field multiples.
Or did you completely forget Sci Fleet's existence?
Let's also not forget SNB is both an Offense and Defensive tool. Capable of either hosing someones resists and heals off before they can recover, or to completely hose someone's alpha runs off.
You can't have it both ways. Either Tac Sci Is Op and needs a kick in the crotch, or all sci sucks. Take your pick champ
It's not like Tac Sci can equal out the output of a Tac Scort either even with all the tac boosting skills. Unless that sci ship is being shot an awful lot and he's packing FPB1 or 2, tac buffed. And then that's so easily countered that people that lose solely on that deserve their loss anyway. Even with it is right now Tac Sci damage is < Tac Escort damage. And that's not even throwing in the new 5th console that the fleet ships get.
Sci Scort, and Sci Sci damage on the other hand? Isn't nearly as far apart, if you don't build your ship like a complete tool.
I'm saying 3 Escorts period are squishy. sci or not. Sci Fleet. Scattering Field. The former is an incredibly strong shield resist that you'd have to be completely dense not to notice, the latter is an okay resist that at minimum shuts down bleedthrough damages completely. I would take 3 sci ships LONG before 3 escorts, even with sci's ships diminished prowess. Because they can heal. They have shut downs, and other tools escorts don't have. You couple sci fleet and SF with a sci ships innate shield healing, and healing capabilities and you're much better off than a sci scort is, when you field multiples..
AH! no i havent forgotten the power of sci fleet, but you can still get sci fleet from a science cruiser or a science escort.
the whole arguement was about weither a sciecne in a science is better then a tacitcal in a science and its been proven time and time again that a tactical in a science ship is a better option then a science in a tactical ship. you want 3 science ships? ok- 3 science ships with 2 tacitcal officers and an engineer piloting them with a tactical escort and a science cruiser and you have a pretty hard team to beam. oh look... no science in science ships... the whole point ive been trying to prove!
Or did you completely forget Sci Fleet's existence?
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no i didnt. but this can be used from any ship with the same effectivness. more so if youre in a cruiser with hull heals to back up the shield resists.
Let's also not forget SNB is both an Offense and Defensive tool. Capable of either hosing someones resists and heals off before they can recover, or to completely hose someone's alpha runs off.
.
yes it is. but this isnt restricted to science ships. cruisers and escorts can use them just as well if not better depending on the skill of the pilot.
You can't have it both ways. Either Tac Sci Is Op and needs a kick in the crotch, or all sci sucks. Take your pick champ
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all science sucks until you stick a tactical captain behind the wheel to boost the damage. this is the point im saying, and feeling that needs to be changed.
It's not like Tac Sci can equal out the output of a Tac Scort either even with all the tac boosting skills. Unless that sci ship is being shot an awful lot and he's packing FPB1 or 2, tac buffed. And then that's so easily countered that people that lose solely on that deserve their loss anyway. Even with it is right now Tac Sci damage is < Tac Escort damage. And that's not even throwing in the new 5th console that the fleet ships get.
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thats how it should be. you keep bringing up points that have no place in the argument at hand. and that is that a tactical officer does everything a science officer can do AND he can do it better.
Sci Scort, and Sci Sci damage on the other hand? Isn't nearly as far apart, if you don't build your ship like a complete tool.
which is also how it should be depending on the build because science isnt about damage. its in theory about contorlling the battlefield... which it cant do either.
Oh yeah...I'd be very interested to see the statistics showing this, perhaps a detailed breakdown of every Sci/Sci's PvP matches to date?
i never claimed to be the TOP science player, just one of the top. there are others who equal and more then likely surpass me. i have no doubts about that. ive also had the pleasure of battling them on more then one occasaion as well.
if this bothers you i apologize for being so good. :P
i never claimed to be the TOP science player, just one of the top. there are others who equal and more then likely surpass me. i have no doubts about that. ive also had the pleasure of battling them on more then one occasaion as well.
if this bothers you i apologize for being so good. :P
AH! no i havent forgotten the power of sci fleet, but you can still get sci fleet from a science cruiser or a science escort.
the whole arguement was about weither a sciecne in a science is better then a tacitcal in a science and its been proven time and time again that a tactical in a science ship is a better option then a science in a tactical ship. you want 3 science ships? ok- 3 science ships with 2 tacitcal officers and an engineer piloting them with a tactical escort and a science cruiser and you have a pretty hard team to beam. oh look... no science in science ships... the whole point ive been trying to prove!
no i didnt. but this can be used from any ship with the same effectivness. more so if youre in a cruiser with hull heals to back up the shield resists.
yes it is. but this isnt restricted to science ships. cruisers and escorts can use them just as well if not better depending on the skill of the pilot.
all science sucks until you stick a tactical captain behind the wheel to boost the damage. this is the point im saying, and feeling that needs to be changed.
thats how it should be. you keep bringing up points that have no place in the argument at hand. and that is that a tactical officer does everything a science officer can do AND he can do it better.
which is also how it should be depending on the build because science isnt about damage. its in theory about contorlling the battlefield... which it cant do either.
Look kid. My point is, pretty damn simple. An allegedly smart guy like yourself should have gotten this on the first post I made in the thread.
Sci Sci being "underwhelming" (yeah right, it's every bit as underwhelming in pvp as a Tac Sci is.), has no bearing what so ever on the state of Tactical Sci. Sci, synergize better with different console loadouts, diff power settings than does the tac sci. That you want to shove a square into a round hole is your problem. You aren't getting those glory days of 3 to 4 CPB and tachyon beams gibbing entire team shields folllowed by fusilades of torp spreads and SNBs back.
My sci sci is still fieldable. She's actually more so now than the tac sci because of the change to PSW3 until I completly reconfigure the ship why?
Because DEBUFF POWERS WORK BETTER ON IT BECAUSE YOU CAN CONSOLE UP ACCORDINGLY WITHOUT SACRIFICING NEARLY AS MUCH OF THE CAPTAIN POTENTIAL.
Let me spell that out for you again. DEBUFF POWERS WORK BETTER ON IT BECAUSE YOU CAN CONSOLE UP ACCORDINGLY WITHOUT SACRIFICING NEARLY AS MUCH OF THE CAPTAIN POTENTIAL.
and again
DEBUFF POWERS WORK BETTER ON IT BECAUSE YOU CAN CONSOLE UP ACCORDINGLY WITHOUT SACRIFICING NEARLY AS MUCH OF THE CAPTAIN POTENTIAL.
You can scream "but tacs will do more dps while they do it!" All you want, but without particle gen consoles, a tac sci's dps is laughably bad. Do you really think I haven't tried it both ways? Seriously? Guess which one works flat out better? the Sci loaded out that way. Because YOU ARE NOT TRIBBLE AWAY THE ONLY THING YOUR CLASS IS GOOD FOR TO DEBUFF OR ZONE DENIAL WITH.
SNB at that point is a far far better skill than APA. Because your base damage is Craptastic without the part gen consoles.
yeah, you're a good pvper. But you know what? I'm a pretty damned good one myself. And just because I don't have T S I over my toon names doesn't make me a scrub that has no clue what he's talking about. Get your head out of your TRIBBLE kid.
Look kid. My point is, pretty damn simple. An allegedly smart guy like yourself should have gotten this on the first post I made in the thread.
ive used reasoned arguments, i've broken down all my statements. yet youre being very condasending for no reason. i have my thoughts, they include that tactical captain abilities shouldnt increase all damage. just weapon damage.
Sci Sci being "underwhelming" (yeah right, it's every bit as underwhelming in pvp as a Tac Sci is.), has no bearing what so ever on the state of Tactical Sci. Sci, synergize better with different console loadouts, diff power settings than does the tac sci. That you want to shove a square into a round hole is your problem. You aren't getting those glory days of 3 to 4 CPB and tachyon beams gibbing entire team shields folllowed by fusilades of torp spreads and SNBs back.
the problem with your argument here is that a tacitcal captain that decides to focus completely on debuffs still out performs a science captain doing the same thing because the tactical captain has the damage boosting skills, while yet if a science captain decides to do all damage increases he doesnt come anywhere near the potental of the tacitcal doing this. this is not balanced or right, the tactical performs both the debuffing layout and the damage layout better then the science doing either.
My sci sci is still fieldable. She's actually more so now than the tac sci because of the change to PSW3 until I completly reconfigure the ship why?.
my sci sci is still fieldable as well, this has no relation to the fact that dispite how fieldable youre ship is now, a tactical captain could more then likely do it better. (the only exception is pure healing which an engieering captain can do)
Because DEBUFF POWERS WORK BETTER ON IT BECAUSE YOU CAN CONSOLE UP ACCORDINGLY WITHOUT SACRIFICING NEARLY AS MUCH OF THE CAPTAIN POTENTIAL.
there is no captain bonus for using the science captain for debuff powers, while debuff powers that do damage will always get the bonus from a tactical capatin doing the same thing.
Let me spell that out for you again. DEBUFF POWERS WORK BETTER ON IT BECAUSE YOU CAN CONSOLE UP ACCORDINGLY WITHOUT SACRIFICING NEARLY AS MUCH OF THE CAPTAIN POTENTIAL.
and again i say, anything the science does for this the tacitcal can do it too and do it better because of the extra dps he can give all the debuff powers that do damage.
DEBUFF POWERS WORK BETTER ON IT BECAUSE YOU CAN CONSOLE UP ACCORDINGLY WITHOUT SACRIFICING NEARLY AS MUCH OF THE CAPTAIN POTENTIAL.
You can scream "but tacs will do more dps while they do it!" All you want, but without particle gen consoles, a tac sci's dps is laughably bad. Do you really think I haven't tried it both ways? Seriously? Guess which one works flat out better? the Sci loaded out that way. Because YOU ARE NOT TRIBBLE AWAY THE ONLY THING YOUR CLASS IS GOOD FOR TO DEBUFF OR ZONE DENIAL WITH.
SNB at that point is a far far better skill than APA. Because your base damage is Craptastic without the part gen consoles.
a tac sci's dps is laughably bad sure, but a science captains dps is even worse. the tacitcal captain still does more damage then him and all the same debuffs his bo layout would offer up.
yeah, you're a good pvper. But you know what? I'm a pretty damned good one myself. And just because I don't have T S I over my toon names doesn't make me a scrub that has no clue what he's talking about. Get your head out of your TRIBBLE kid.
i never insulted you, i never said you were or were not a good player. why are you being such an TRIBBLE to me? im defending my postition that tacitcal captain powers shouldnt increase science damage powers yet youre the one who has done the name calling and insulting.... yet i need to get my head out of my TRIBBLE..... right... :rolleyes:
You are acting as if the dps gained by a tac sci using his gravitoned out TBR is even worth mentioning. It's not.
SNB coupled with that on the other hand? Is much more devastating. And you know it.
He doesn't outperform a sci. He doesn't have the damage dealing capability at that point. You know it, I know it and anyone not smoking some pretty interesting substances knows it.
You need particle gen consoles before your sci skills start doing significant DPS. That's a pretty straightforward fact. I've used Tac Scis, off and on for the past 2 years. I have used sci scis for the same time. I find it hilarious by the way that you never started whining about tac scis being able to boost GW, TBR, and PSW dps, until well after CPB was shot in the face, when Sci Sci went from /faceroll easy to being a hair behind.
(and the only reason they are behind has NOTHING to do with tac buffs. But the Borked Skill Tree instead)
If you really think APA and GDF will help a team more when there are no particle gens on the field, and the sci ship is hitting max aux, than an SNB in that same setup and situation, I have a bridge to sell you.
If you think it's so OP how about you actually field it for a change.
i just kinda skimmed that rant, but i don't see why a tac/sci couldn't slot just as many particle gens or whatever as a sci/sci can. and then stack 3 huge all damage buffs captain powers on them. and then tractor repulser 3 an escort practically to death. im so confuse.
i just kinda skimmed that rant, but i don't see why a tac/sci couldn't slot just as many particle gens or whatever as a sci/sci can. and then stack 3 huge all damage buffs captain powers on them. and then tractor repulser 3 an escort practically to death. im so confuse.
A Tac sci yes can do DPS with sci skills. However the Repel, is best kept Low in order to do dps with it.
Not only that, but a sci sci is better suited to loading up Graviton consoles instead of particle gens, because without particle gens TBR's damage is Pathetic on a tac sci ship. Powers which do not deal DPS at all, similarly are better suited to a sci captain, as there's no DPS to buff. A sci focuses on the Repel in that particular instance, because the repel is far less gimpy to a sci's out put than it is a Tac. Infact the higher the repel the better for the sci captain because it reduces the odds of enemy cross healing being able to undo the damage that the coming SNB is going to give.
What I'm pissed about is Maikai taking a faceroller attitude of "they kicked me in the nuts. Tac sci almost looks semi viable instead of me. I should get it kicked in the nuts too!"
By the way there is only ONE tac sci dps skill worth mentioning. And that's TBR. Grav well Sucks Period.
How is this not painfully obvious?
Sci on the other hand? Can still get either dps, OR a repel out of TBR, they can use Tykens 3 if they have doffs, they make better use of VM3 and VM1 overall than does a tac, and the only remaining function of PSW is also better suited for sci in the Extend Removal department. Yet people want to continue ignoring all of this in the thread, because they are butt hurt that tacs can put #s on the screen when built to the 9s to do so.
Both get equal mileage out of Tractor beam.
Sci get better miles out of Chroniton Torps, and mines, since the dps of that weapon system is Craptastic even with tac buffs.
Sci, honestly with as bad as Warp Plas (which is something being found on more and more sci ships given the sorry state of GW and non tractor beam slows) has gotten are better suited for it than tacs, since the DOT for plas is just so god awful now.
Sci also get better miles out of a given heal skill than a tac can because of Sci fleet and scattering field.
Sci also have a better debuff than do tacs in Sensor scan, whether mai kai wants to fess up to that or not, and consequently MUCH better cloak detection.
Tac sci is not nearly the power house people thinks it is. I can name at least 4 builds off the top of my head that make it look like Trash. Two of which involve Cruisers of all things.
Sci Sci on the other hand still can fufill it's own role. (barely)
Both varieties of Wizard are in serious trouble in this game, and likely won't get fixed anytime soon. Asking to get the other one kicked in the crotch, again out of spite because the /faceroll CPB torpspread build is dead, is just mean spirited.
If the debuffs are worth powering up, the sci becomes more useful than does the tac. Because the thign the tac does, AOE dps, is easily replicated via escorts and Torp Spread 3s paired with CSV2s.
TRIBBLE it, lets kick tac sci in the nuts. AGAIN, lets kick it so hard this time that no one should ever fly it ever. And lets take both consoles and DHCs away from Escorts too. So everyone can fly the stupid TRIBBLE Failboat DEM cruiser builds. Won't that be fun. Or how about better APA should be deleted, cause it adds DPS to anything. That's clearly better than completely removing 75 percent SDR and 65 percent HDR :rolleyes:
Ghost, a Tac can do a sci/controller build just as good as a sci/sci AND have better damage...it doesn't matter that they give up being EVEN BETTER to do it...they still can play the sci role better than a sci.
A Tac sci yes can do DPS with sci skills. However the Repel, is best kept Low in order to do dps with it.
the problem here is that you keep arguing that a tactical in a damage minded sci ship will do more damage. well duh, a science in a damage minded science will come nowhere close to a tactical. and its not because of the weapon damage, its because of the bonuses to the science powers that the tactical can utilize that a sci cant. my point still stands that a tactical can crowd control just as good as a science and deal that extra damage. the sci can only crowd control.
Not only that, but a sci sci is better suited to loading up Graviton consoles instead of particle gens, because without particle gens TBR's damage is Pathetic on a tac sci ship. Powers which do not deal DPS at all, similarly are better suited to a sci captain, as there's no DPS to buff. A sci focuses on the Repel in that particular instance, because the repel is far less gimpy to a sci's out put than it is a Tac..
this isnt just about super buffing with consoles for one or the other. if you take the SAME loadout on a sci for crowd control ,and then take that loadout for a tacitcal. the tacitcal does it better.
What I'm pissed about is Maikai taking a faceroller attitude of "they kicked me in the nuts. Tac sci almost looks semi viable instead of me. I should get it kicked in the nuts too!".
i dont think thats my point of view, i think its reasonable to think that tactical captains boosting only weapon damage makes sense. nothing else in the game boost damage except for skill trees points. can you honestly say that if tacitcal powers boosted only weapons damage it would compeltely ruin the game then you rely too much on your tactical being a science ship doing more then damage then it should. because he can do everything the science captain can do and the extra dps to boot.
By the way there is only ONE tac sci dps skill worth mentioning. And that's TBR. Grav well Sucks Period..
tbr, grav well, tykens rift, shockwave. tractor beam are all increased by the damage bonus from tactical captains. but if only tbr matter then it shouldnt be an issue if the damage is switched to weapons only instead of all right?
I'm wondering why its so painful for you, to require you to resort to name calling and demeaning of the me and other science players, that you can't seem to comprehend a different point of view.
Sci on the other hand? Can still get either dps, OR a repel out of TBR, they can use Tykens 3 if they have doffs, they make better use of VM3 and VM1 overall than does a tac, and the only remaining function of PSW is also better suited for sci in the Extend Removal department. Yet people want to continue ignoring all of this in the thread, because they are butt hurt that tacs can put #s on the screen when built to the 9s to do so..
i would argue again that tacticals can also get repel with dps or super dps out of tbr, they can use tykens rift with doffs too. ever see a tykens rift used by a tacitcal with a target subsystem to take down a shield while a supercharged high yield torp+shockwave hits the target? a sci in a sci cant do that.... they can take down the shields sure... but not follow up with the needed punch like a tactical can. so why take the science captain?
i also aruge that since vm and shockwave dont require aux, theyre even MORE suited for a tactical captain since it allows them to run high weapon power on their ship and still smack hard with those powers.
i have no problem with tacs putting insane damage numbers on the screen. when their in their escorts or cruisers with the big guns. its when they can also do this with science powers at the detriment of the science captain that i have issues.
Sci, honestly with as bad as Warp Plas (which is something being found on more and more sci ships given the sorry state of GW and non tractor beam slows) has gotten are better suited for it than tacs, since the DOT for plas is just so god awful now..
last i saw a buffed warp plasma via tac buffs can still be feared. but i dont recall any science ship that can take this where a tactical in the same ship wouldnt be better. partical generators increase this and shockwave and grav well. oooo tactical captains increase those as well -rolls eyes- charged partical burst isnt increased by tactical powers (thank the gods) but its useless in its own right at the moment.
Sci also get better miles out of a given heal skill than a tac can because of Sci fleet and scattering field. .
both of those can be applied by a teammate in a cruiser or escort or by yourself while in an escort or cruiser. the cruiser probably being the better choice for the extra hull heals to compliment the shield resists from sci fleet.
Sci also have a better debuff than do tacs in Sensor scan, whether mai kai wants to fess up to that or not, and consequently MUCH better cloak detection.
better is up to debate. its lower then it used to be and is aux dependant. cloak detection in this game is laughable at best, and it can be removed with a science team. the only slight edge it has over fomm is that its supposed to be an AOE. all in all though its about as useless as fomm against a good team.
it seems that my argument is that tactical shouldnt boost damage other then weapons. using that it makes tacticals more of choice in science ships then science captains.
your argument is that im playing science wrong, not using them for debuffs.
i've countered youre argument time and time again that any debuff build the science captain can do, the tactical simply does it better because every debuff that does damage gets that much better in the hands of a tactical where the science only has his consoles to work with. there is no argument against that.
Tac sci is not nearly the power house people thinks it is. I can name at least 4 builds off the top of my head that make it look like Trash. Two of which involve Cruisers of all things. :
im not saying its the end all be all builds, but its always better then any equally equiped/loaded out science captain in the same ship
Sci Sci on the other hand still can fufill it's own role. (barely):
im not arguing that either, and thats mostly because of the creativity it takes to be a science captain in this game. a tac sci though fufills its role and the science role without question.
Both varieties of Wizard are in serious trouble in this game, and likely won't get fixed anytime soon. Asking to get the other one kicked in the crotch, again out of spite because the /faceroll CPB torpspread build is dead, is just mean spirited.:
its not out of spite, a tactical in an escort would still reap the huge damage numbers it can.
If the debuffs are worth powering up, the sci becomes more useful than does the tac. Because the thign the tac does, AOE dps, is easily replicated via escorts and Torp Spread 3s paired with CSV2s.:
so a tactical with torp spread 3 and csv2... im not following your point here...
TRIBBLE it, lets kick tac sci in the nuts. AGAIN, lets kick it so hard this time that no one should ever fly it ever. And lets take both consoles and DHCs away from Escorts too. So everyone can fly the stupid TRIBBLE Failboat DEM cruiser builds. Won't that be fun. Or how about better APA should be deleted, cause it adds DPS to anything. That's clearly better than completely removing 75 percent SDR and 65 percent HDR :rolleyes:
tac sci in the nuts again eh? never mind that anything the tac sci got the sci sci got worse.
youre just compairing things that are in no way related. having tactical captains only power buff weapons wouldnt kill the tac sci. it would make you have to actually think how you'd load it out. youre blowing things way out of proportaion in compairison what id like to see.
Ghost, a Tac can do a sci/controller build just as good as a sci/sci AND have better damage...it doesn't matter that they give up being EVEN BETTER to do it...they still can play the sci role better than a sci.
That's the point we've been trying to make.
You people have really convinced yourselves that APA and GDF are > SNB for Debuffing?
When APA and GDF add Jack and TRIBBLE to debuff focused sci ships?
Seriously?
Tell you what, maybe you guys should get together, make yourselves a new premade. Go field 3 tac scis and 2 eng cruisers to keep them together. See how many kills you rack up. Now go do that with 3 sci instead.
You people have really convinced yourselves that APA and GDF are > SNB for Debuffing?
When APA and GDF add Jack and TRIBBLE to debuff focused sci ships?
Seriously?
Tell you what, maybe you guys should get together, make yourselves a new premade. Go field 3 tac scis and 2 eng cruisers to keep them together. See how many kills you rack up. Now go do that with 3 sci instead.
apa, and gdf, stacked.....yes, = snb. but only in the hands of those who know how to use it.
any ole joe sophlogimo can spike after a snb. it takes finesse to max an apa and gdf.
sci/scis are capable of annoyance, flinging you around, putting a stop to ES, and subnuking you so other people can kill you. thats useful to a team, but certainly not all it used to be able to do. it cant deal damage, it cant strip shields, it cant deliver torp damage after it strips shields, all its got is annoyance, interference, and serving up.
a tac sci can be your worst nightmare if you attack it. they wait for an alpha and fire off a tac buffed FBP that can take half your health if you blow it off and don't notice just how much damage its doing before its too late. when you stop shooting at it or when FBP ends, they use A2B and start their TBR3 with the tac buffs still running to kill an escort by the time it would be done with its alpha. each of those skills fully tac buffed can take more then 50% of your health each, FBP only if your dumb enough to keep shooting regardless of the damage it deals.
ive encountered some that were so good at what they did, you were simply a fool to ever shoot at it, it would just wait for an alpha and murder you. you just had to try to stay away from it, it couldn't be dealt with any other way, not with a team of pugs at least. team work and more then 1 person that knows how to play could handle a situation like that of course, but thats some serious power for a sci ship, all 100% thanks to the tac captain.
You people have really convinced yourselves that APA and GDF are > SNB for Debuffing?
When APA and GDF add Jack and TRIBBLE to debuff focused sci ships?
Seriously?
Tell you what, maybe you guys should get together, make yourselves a new premade. Go field 3 tac scis and 2 eng cruisers to keep them together. See how many kills you rack up. Now go do that with 3 sci instead.
well apa and gdf are not debuffs. theyre buffs. they work completely differently then snb.
i dont think 3 of any one captain type is a good idea. you take those 3 science in science ships and you seriously lack either dps or healing. a good mix is 2+2+1. although i see quite a few 3+1+1's running around. and hell the number of times ive pugged and ended up being 4+1....
there is no other 2 power, 1 player combo that has the ability to wipe out an entire 5 man team in the span of 30 seconds like apa and gdf can......
you have to lock it in at low hull, and really nail your strikes. its there, but hard to capture.
ah those glorious berserker rampages, they are why i carry ET3, to get in the danger zone and then immediately get out of it by my self. love doing this in my excelsior and vorcha, 8 beam array dealing no less then 3k damage a shot! thats why you REEEEEEALY shouldn't chase me when i run. watch out for that 1000+ DOT plasma cloud too!
the problem here is that you keep arguing that a tactical in a damage minded sci ship will do more damage. well duh, a science in a damage minded science will come nowhere close to a tactical. and its not because of the weapon damage, its because of the bonuses to the science powers that the tactical can utilize that a sci cant. my point still stands that a tactical can crowd control just as good as a science and deal that extra damage. the sci can only crowd control.
this isnt just about super buffing with consoles for one or the other. if you take the SAME loadout on a sci for crowd control ,and then take that loadout for a tacitcal. the tacitcal does it better.
i dont think thats my point of view, i think its reasonable to think that tactical captains boosting only weapon damage makes sense. nothing else in the game boost damage except for skill trees points. can you honestly say that if tacitcal powers boosted only weapons damage it would compeltely ruin the game then you rely too much on your tactical being a science ship doing more then damage then it should. because he can do everything the science captain can do and the extra dps to boot.
tbr, grav well, tykens rift, shockwave. tractor beam are all increased by the damage bonus from tactical captains. but if only tbr matter then it shouldnt be an issue if the damage is switched to weapons only instead of all right?
I'm wondering why its so painful for you, to require you to resort to name calling and demeaning of the me and other science players, that you can't seem to comprehend a different point of view.
i would argue again that tacticals can also get repel with dps or super dps out of tbr, they can use tykens rift with doffs too. ever see a tykens rift used by a tacitcal with a target subsystem to take down a shield while a supercharged high yield torp+shockwave hits the target? a sci in a sci cant do that.... they can take down the shields sure... but not follow up with the needed punch like a tactical can. so why take the science captain?
i also aruge that since vm and shockwave dont require aux, theyre even MORE suited for a tactical captain since it allows them to run high weapon power on their ship and still smack hard with those powers.
i have no problem with tacs putting insane damage numbers on the screen. when their in their escorts or cruisers with the big guns. its when they can also do this with science powers at the detriment of the science captain that i have issues.
everyone gets equal mileage out of tractor beam. even pets!
so one weapon type out of what... 7? tacticals get better mileage out of every other weapon in the game.
last i saw a buffed warp plasma via tac buffs can still be feared. but i dont recall any science ship that can take this where a tactical in the same ship wouldnt be better. partical generators increase this and shockwave and grav well. oooo tactical captains increase those as well -rolls eyes- charged partical burst isnt increased by tactical powers (thank the gods) but its useless in its own right at the moment.
both of those can be applied by a teammate in a cruiser or escort or by yourself while in an escort or cruiser. the cruiser probably being the better choice for the extra hull heals to compliment the shield resists from sci fleet.
better is up to debate. its lower then it used to be and is aux dependant. cloak detection in this game is laughable at best, and it can be removed with a science team. the only slight edge it has over fomm is that its supposed to be an AOE. all in all though its about as useless as fomm against a good team.
it seems that my argument is that tactical shouldnt boost damage other then weapons. using that it makes tacticals more of choice in science ships then science captains.
your argument is that im playing science wrong, not using them for debuffs.
i've countered youre argument time and time again that any debuff build the science captain can do, the tactical simply does it better because every debuff that does damage gets that much better in the hands of a tactical where the science only has his consoles to work with. there is no argument against that.
No it can't. TBR at it's best for -pure zone denial- is better at the hands of a Sci. The Repel which you hate so much and find so unpredictable? Is better utilized in the hands of something where distance to target doesn't TRIBBLE the end result. kicking a target 12km out with one single pulse, completely hoses the tacs ability to use repeated pulses on the target. SNB on the other hand? Doesn't Care. It's actually Beneficial, to kick a target harder and farther for the sci using TBR as CC/Zone Denial.
No ands ifs or buts about it. When you kick the target hard enough out, you lose pulse opportunity. You lose the ability to deal DPS. The more Graviton Consoles on said ship, the less each pulse deals in damage. Period.
And you are pissed that, a tac with particle gens, can do DPS at the expense of not being able to kick people straight out of heal ranges of enemy healers. When the sci, gets more time for that SNB to be useful, in further crippling the soon to be vaped target, because the friendly escort went out with you to go dump him some damage. So with Tac TBR you can either A completely Hose your damage potential and put on 3 graviton consoles, or B, at the expense of potentially having your enemy completely healing through your best output, go 3 Particle Gens, but more than likely at least you can force a heal burn or two.
Not it IS NOT reasonable. Sci skills being tac buffable is the entire reason tac sci can even work in the first place. Why do you think that particular combo DIED COMPLETELY, during Season 2.5 -4? It wasn't cause we tac and sci ship lovers were feeling generous to our opponents. It's because without tac boosted sci skills the out put is Pathetic. You know, kind of like how Sci players in general ***** whine and moan about not being able to do anything in 90 percent of the pve content vs a tac. Because you don't have enough weapons, nor weapon power, nor tac consoles, nor boff abilities.
Yeah sure a tac sci can pump some damage if he takes a shield off. But you know what? He ain't going to be setting up the kill with TR3. Because he has no way to stop incoming heals. Like oh I don't know... what class has the only Debuff Captain Skill. Oh Right Sci Captains.
Grav well Is Terrible. Shockwave DITTO. Tykens damage? really? LOL. You might as well start ******** that Escorts have turrets, and tac consoles now, or that DHCs are Imba, because Those three right there? even tac buffed their DPS is Pathetic.
No my argument is that you want to unnecessarily kick tac sci in the crotch, because you don't have your faceroll sci sci anymore. Which is true. You've been on this bent ever since CPB fell out of favor. Lo and behold the mighty mai kai is pissed because he can't rack up Escort #s in a sci ship anymore.
How about actually attacking the Real Problem instead of trying to launch some stupid TRIBBLE crusade. Attack The TRIBBLE Skill Tree and it's 50 percent Auto Resistance.
Oh, can't forget lolarons as well. They get equal mileage out of those. Especially since the sci ship can benefit from the proc and low weapon power still.
well apa and gdf are not debuffs. theyre buffs. they work completely differently then snb.
i dont think 3 of any one captain type is a good idea. you take those 3 science in science ships and you seriously lack either dps or healing. a good mix is 2+2+1. although i see quite a few 3+1+1's running around. and hell the number of times ive pugged and ended up being 4+1....
And yet look at what everyone fielded on the "Big Boys" during Every Single Tournament. 3+ Sci captains.
Look at what the few remaining teams still field 3 Sci.
Look at what you never see. 3 Tacs, not on a top level team.
Yes they work completely different, and that is my point. The way sci sci and tac sci operate on the field are two totally different animals in the first place.
ah those glorious berserker rampages, they are why i carry ET3, to get in the danger zone and then immediately get out of it by my self. love doing this in my excelsior and vorcha, 8 beam array dealing no less then 3k damage a shot! thats why you REEEEEEALY shouldn't chase me when i run. watch out for that 1000+ DOT plasma cloud too!
heck yeah man.
and pls someone throw that guy a hazzards if he is stuck in that cloud and on cooldown......because im about 2 clicks away broadsiding him....and he is about 5 seconds away from the respawn button.
No it can't. TBR at it's best for -pure zone denial- is better at the hands of a Sci. The Repel which you hate so much and find so unpredictable? Is better utilized in the hands of something where distance to target doesn't TRIBBLE the end result. kicking a target 12km out with one single pulse, completely hoses the tacs ability to use repeated pulses on the target. SNB on the other hand? Doesn't Care. It's actually Beneficial, to kick a target harder and farther for the sci using TBR as CC/Zone Denial..
zone denial right? ok.. well if im correct, tbr hits 3 targets at a time. so you take your tacitcal and set his tbr to knockback and do damage and what do you have? an ability thats great at forcing the enemy team to spike heal multiple targets leaving a primary target vulnerable to team fire. that seems pretty area denial to me. if keep missing the point that the idea is for tacs to only do damage. but guess what, they do damage and push targets where the science can only push targets or do damage.
No ands ifs or buts about it. When you kick the target hard enough out, you lose pulse opportunity. You lose the ability to deal DPS. The more Graviton Consoles on said ship, the less each pulse deals in damage. Period.
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right, and in the hands of a tactical it can push really far and still get some extra damage done. see above comment on how that is useful
And you are pissed that, a tac with particle gens, can do DPS at the expense of not being able to kick people straight out of heal ranges of enemy healers. When the sci, gets more time for that SNB to be useful, in further crippling the soon to be vaped target, because the friendly escort went out with you to go dump him some damage. So with Tac TBR you can either A completely Hose your damage potential and put on 3 graviton consoles, or B, at the expense of potentially having your enemy completely healing through your best output, go 3 Particle Gens, but more than likely at least you can force a heal burn or two.
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you just discribed what teamwork is all about, the sci can use his snb from a cruiser that a tactcal science ship has pushed out and a fellow escort or the tac sci can chase down and do with as he pleases. the point i keep trying to make is it isnt right that a tactical can do BOTH crowd control and the extra damage over the science captain using the same crowd control setup
Not it IS NOT reasonable. Sci skills being tac buffable is the entire reason tac sci can even work in the first place. Why do you think that particular combo DIED COMPLETELY, during Season 2.5 -4? It wasn't cause we tac and sci ship lovers were feeling generous to our opponents. It's because without tac boosted sci skills the out put is Pathetic. You know, kind of like how Sci players in general ***** whine and moan about not being able to do anything in 90 percent of the pve content vs a tac. Because you don't have enough weapons, nor weapon power, nor tac consoles, nor boff abilities.
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if thats the only reason a tac sci can work as you put it then maybe youre not flying it right. a tac sci with full cannon/turret loadout and sensor anaylasis can easly do a lot of dps with his buffs, why does he NEED the damage boosts to also boost the science powers? i've never complained about not being able to kill stuff in pve. i still faithfully use my sci ship in pve. its acutally taught me how to make the most for dps with my sci ship.
the only time ive ever complained about science ships was the odd. getting the sensory anlayasis with the 8 weapon slots. and i got banned for that.
Yeah sure a tac sci can pump some damage if he takes a shield off. But you know what? He ain't going to be setting up the kill with TR3. Because he has no way to stop incoming heals. Like oh I don't know... what class has the only Debuff Captain Skill. Oh Right Sci Captains.
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well since you've used so many examples of team play, where his team mate sci cruiser at to strip him?
Grav well Is Terrible. Shockwave DITTO. Tykens damage? really? LOL. You might as well start ******** that Escorts have turrets, and tac consoles now, or that DHCs are Imba, because Those three right there? even tac buffed their DPS is Pathetic.
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i stated all the powers that i know of that can be boosted. if youre unwilling to see how they can be used to great effect by a tac sci over a sci sci then its not my problem.
No my argument is that you want to unnecessarily kick tac sci in the crotch, because you don't have your faceroll sci sci anymore. Which is true. You've been on this bent ever since CPB fell out of favor. Lo and behold the mighty mai kai is pissed because he can't rack up Escort #s in a sci ship anymore.
.
cpb fell out at the begining of the year. i adjusted my play style. ive adjusted my playstyle (and shared many of the builds ive created with the community) only to then a couple months later have to compeltely readjust my playstyle because cryptic went and "balanced" something. i can still hold my own when it comes to dps numbers when im not playing with anyone who knows how to fly an escort. but dps numbers has nothing to do with it. tacitcals have always out damaged science players, i know this is how its supposed to be, my question is- why do tactical powers boost science damage and weapon damage? why cant it only boost weapons damage?
How about actually attacking the Real Problem instead of trying to launch some stupid TRIBBLE crusade. Attack The TRIBBLE Skill Tree and it's 50 percent Auto Resistance.
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i agree the skill tree for the science section needs a major overhaul. i however have no more illusions that anything will ever be done about it.
Oh, can't forget lolarons as well. They get equal mileage out of those. Especially since the sci ship can benefit from the proc and low weapon power still.
.[/QUOTE]
and on a tac sci power drain build they work too! high suck tykens 3 + polarons + target susbsytem + loads of high powered torps flying at you because its a tactical thats doing it.... so again
And yet look at what everyone fielded on the "Big Boys" during Every Single Tournament. 3+ Sci captains.
Look at what the few remaining teams still field 3 Sci.
Look at what you never see. 3 Tacs, not on a top level team.
Yes they work completely different, and that is my point. The way sci sci and tac sci operate on the field are two totally different animals in the first place.
i cant recall any recent events where there has been that many sciences on a team .the last major tourny was last year before the skill tree revamp. back when sci/sci wasnt a bad thing.
i cant recall any recent events where there has been that many sciences on a team .the last major tourny was last year before the skill tree revamp. back when sci/sci wasnt a bad thing.
Okay, lets look at what you guys each fielded post f2p.
4 man oddy teams and a bug ship.
3 of which were sci captains, 1 eng, 1 tac.
sound familiar yet?
It's still a sci captain. Still 3 fielded.
The funny thing is, you can still roll 3 sci ships deep, if they were built around TR3s and VMs. Thanks to the new doffs. Why you haven't I don't know. Because really that's a pretty haxcellent setup. (better performed on the KDF side where you can be sci bops instead, with DHCs blasting away granted, but it's hardly a slouch fedside)
In any case, if sci captains were so screwed, you wouldn't be fielding 3 of them. You'd treat em like borderlined lepers, like tacs are without at least 2 to 3 SNBs to hose a target with.
And the only reason anyone brings a sci is for SNB...which is almost worthless in PVE... Would be nice to get a Dev's thought in here (even if it's a risky thread).
zone denial right? ok.. well if im correct, tbr hits 3 targets at a time. so you take your tacitcal and set his tbr to knockback and do damage and what do you have? an ability thats great at forcing the enemy team to spike heal multiple targets leaving a primary target vulnerable to team fire. that seems pretty area denial to me. if keep missing the point that the idea is for tacs to only do damage. but guess what, they do damage and push targets where the science can only push targets or do damage.
tacitcal +1
right, and in the hands of a tactical it can push really far and still get some extra damage done. see above comment on how that is useful
tactical +1
you just discribed what teamwork is all about, the sci can use his snb from a cruiser that a tactcal science ship has pushed out and a fellow escort or the tac sci can chase down and do with as he pleases. the point i keep trying to make is it isnt right that a tactical can do BOTH crowd control and the extra damage over the science captain using the same crowd control setup
if thats the only reason a tac sci can work as you put it then maybe youre not flying it right. a tac sci with full cannon/turret loadout and sensor anaylasis can easly do a lot of dps with his buffs, why does he NEED the damage boosts to also boost the science powers? i've never complained about not being able to kill stuff in pve. i still faithfully use my sci ship in pve. its acutally taught me how to make the most for dps with my sci ship.
the only time ive ever complained about science ships was the odd. getting the sensory anlayasis with the 8 weapon slots. and i got banned for that.
well since you've used so many examples of team play, where his team mate sci cruiser at to strip him?
i stated all the powers that i know of that can be boosted. if youre unwilling to see how they can be used to great effect by a tac sci over a sci sci then its not my problem.
cpb fell out at the begining of the year. i adjusted my play style. ive adjusted my playstyle (and shared many of the builds ive created with the community) only to then a couple months later have to compeltely readjust my playstyle because cryptic went and "balanced" something. i can still hold my own when it comes to dps numbers when im not playing with anyone who knows how to fly an escort. but dps numbers has nothing to do with it. tacitcals have always out damaged science players, i know this is how its supposed to be, my question is- why do tactical powers boost science damage and weapon damage? why cant it only boost weapons damage?
i agree the skill tree for the science section needs a major overhaul. i however have no more illusions that anything will ever be done about it.
-1 to everyone
and on a tac sci power drain build they work too! high suck tykens 3 + polarons + target susbsytem + loads of high powered torps flying at you because its a tactical thats doing it.... so again
tactical +1
In what dream world exactly? TBR doesn't crit the same way it used to anymore. They fixed the Crit Chain issue. You get 1 crit sequence (on one target) unless you are extraordinarily lucky. Oh, and if you kick a guy out 12km and his buddies, your DPS is hosed by that. Your DPS is even more abysmal by having gravitons (the only way to reliably kick people around) instead of particle gens. +2 Sci.
If your idea of extra damage is un consoled TBR you better start whining about escorts. Sci +1
And it's crowd control isn't as good as what the sci can do with it, unless he hoses his damage potential, where as the sci loses nothing there. While maintaing the ability to completely remove defensive buffs. Sci +1
Also where's the sci cruiser? Probably lagging behind the sci sci and tac scort. Because I don't know if you've noticed, Oddys are Fat Kids. Or, hey, he might have Aux ID or some TRIBBLE and dump an snb out too. You can have a sci cruiser and a sci sci.
LOL, I can tell you don't fly Escorts, if you call that alot of damage potential. LOL, lots of potential. With 6 weapons and Sen AN? Sorry Sen An doesn't make up for losing 1 to 2 tac consoles, 1 weapon, and losing DHCs, and higher tier tac skills. Try again. Nor does sci cc power, without Snb being delivered with it, make up the gap either. You Need Tac Buffs, and even then you will lag behind a good scort. Not by too much, but it's definitely noticable.
And the powers you listed, by and large have 0 practical DPS applications outside of TBR. Gravity well is Terrible, both because it's #s are too low without shields being brought down, and a severe lack of dps on the skill itself, TR even more so, PSW.... it does less than a frigging Torpedo Spread 1. You better start whining about tac skills now bein buffed by APA and GDF if you're going to whine about this. Because tac skills do a far better job with tac steroids being fed to them.
Oh and lets not forget TR's power drain is still aux dependent. Meaning full time duty requires alot of power switching, or aux batteries at best for the tac. It also comes at the cost of not being able to field the dps ability TBR 2 or 3 depending on the TR. Also HY? On a sci ship? That's a No Go, if you're serious about pumping #s as a tac. Mmmm sci get benefits for running higher aux in the increasing of enemy CDs, and bumping up scattering field. +1 Sci.
They boost it because without it, you won't get any kind of viable play out of a sci ship for higher end gaming as a tac. Unless you are being dense just to troll, you know this as well as I do.
There's a reason why tac sci got put away when they took that away the first time. Tac sci went straight into the toilet and remained there till they put tac captain buffs back ontop of sci skills.
ps There is no comparison they nerf almost every power but TBR and energy siphon ( dont foret the dev also nerf sci capt) The dev kick sci in the crotch let not wine about the **** they left lets ask for buff / put the powers back the way they were. So we can once again have shield strippers, grav+ewp just good old sick sci builds which have been crushed inbto the ground this isnt a capt debate this need to be buff sci back to be able to compete in alll forms again besides 1 maybe 2.
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wait, i dont understand what youre compairing here.
are you saying that the science are 3 squishy fragile ships that are unsustainable in a team against 3 tacitcal ships with strong heals? i mean.. its not like fire on my mark is a debuff.... ohhhh wait. sure, it sucks that tactical team removes it. but science team removes sensor scan. a ships is only as survivable as his skills and team allow him to be. the science captain has no extra heals that the tactical cant take and use just as well as the science captain.
how is a science captain anymore survivable then a tactical captain? as ive said, scatter field isnt a lifesaving tool you seem to think it is. those tacticals can run the debuffs just as well as the science captains.
ive hardly seen ANY premades run more then once science ship and ususally i see its an engineer. the science is in an escort or crusier. theres a reason NOONE is field 3 science ships of any kind and its because they suck as it currently stands.
I'm saying 3 Escorts period are squishy. sci or not. Sci Fleet. Scattering Field. The former is an incredibly strong shield resist that you'd have to be completely dense not to notice, the latter is an okay resist that at minimum shuts down bleedthrough damages completely. I would take 3 sci ships LONG before 3 escorts, even with sci's ships diminished prowess. Because they can heal. They have shut downs, and other tools escorts don't have. You couple sci fleet and SF with a sci ships innate shield healing, and healing capabilities and you're much better off than a sci scort is, when you field multiples.
Or did you completely forget Sci Fleet's existence?
Let's also not forget SNB is both an Offense and Defensive tool. Capable of either hosing someones resists and heals off before they can recover, or to completely hose someone's alpha runs off.
You can't have it both ways. Either Tac Sci Is Op and needs a kick in the crotch, or all sci sucks. Take your pick champ
It's not like Tac Sci can equal out the output of a Tac Scort either even with all the tac boosting skills. Unless that sci ship is being shot an awful lot and he's packing FPB1 or 2, tac buffed. And then that's so easily countered that people that lose solely on that deserve their loss anyway. Even with it is right now Tac Sci damage is < Tac Escort damage. And that's not even throwing in the new 5th console that the fleet ships get.
Sci Scort, and Sci Sci damage on the other hand? Isn't nearly as far apart, if you don't build your ship like a complete tool.
Oh yeah...I'd be very interested to see the statistics showing this, perhaps a detailed breakdown of every Sci/Sci's PvP matches to date?
the whole arguement was about weither a sciecne in a science is better then a tacitcal in a science and its been proven time and time again that a tactical in a science ship is a better option then a science in a tactical ship. you want 3 science ships? ok- 3 science ships with 2 tacitcal officers and an engineer piloting them with a tactical escort and a science cruiser and you have a pretty hard team to beam. oh look... no science in science ships... the whole point ive been trying to prove!
no i didnt. but this can be used from any ship with the same effectivness. more so if youre in a cruiser with hull heals to back up the shield resists.
yes it is. but this isnt restricted to science ships. cruisers and escorts can use them just as well if not better depending on the skill of the pilot.
all science sucks until you stick a tactical captain behind the wheel to boost the damage. this is the point im saying, and feeling that needs to be changed.
thats how it should be. you keep bringing up points that have no place in the argument at hand. and that is that a tactical officer does everything a science officer can do AND he can do it better.
which is also how it should be depending on the build because science isnt about damage. its in theory about contorlling the battlefield... which it cant do either.
Statistically speaking, if I die, it's usually 8v1 spam in 5v5 matches.
P.S. Don't Repulsor me or I'll report you for harassment.
@f4tamy | Sad Pandas
i never claimed to be the TOP science player, just one of the top. there are others who equal and more then likely surpass me. i have no doubts about that. ive also had the pleasure of battling them on more then one occasaion as well.
if this bothers you i apologize for being so good. :P
Just checking...
Look kid. My point is, pretty damn simple. An allegedly smart guy like yourself should have gotten this on the first post I made in the thread.
Sci Sci being "underwhelming" (yeah right, it's every bit as underwhelming in pvp as a Tac Sci is.), has no bearing what so ever on the state of Tactical Sci. Sci, synergize better with different console loadouts, diff power settings than does the tac sci. That you want to shove a square into a round hole is your problem. You aren't getting those glory days of 3 to 4 CPB and tachyon beams gibbing entire team shields folllowed by fusilades of torp spreads and SNBs back.
My sci sci is still fieldable. She's actually more so now than the tac sci because of the change to PSW3 until I completly reconfigure the ship why?
Because DEBUFF POWERS WORK BETTER ON IT BECAUSE YOU CAN CONSOLE UP ACCORDINGLY WITHOUT SACRIFICING NEARLY AS MUCH OF THE CAPTAIN POTENTIAL.
Let me spell that out for you again. DEBUFF POWERS WORK BETTER ON IT BECAUSE YOU CAN CONSOLE UP ACCORDINGLY WITHOUT SACRIFICING NEARLY AS MUCH OF THE CAPTAIN POTENTIAL.
and again
DEBUFF POWERS WORK BETTER ON IT BECAUSE YOU CAN CONSOLE UP ACCORDINGLY WITHOUT SACRIFICING NEARLY AS MUCH OF THE CAPTAIN POTENTIAL.
You can scream "but tacs will do more dps while they do it!" All you want, but without particle gen consoles, a tac sci's dps is laughably bad. Do you really think I haven't tried it both ways? Seriously? Guess which one works flat out better? the Sci loaded out that way. Because YOU ARE NOT TRIBBLE AWAY THE ONLY THING YOUR CLASS IS GOOD FOR TO DEBUFF OR ZONE DENIAL WITH.
SNB at that point is a far far better skill than APA. Because your base damage is Craptastic without the part gen consoles.
yeah, you're a good pvper. But you know what? I'm a pretty damned good one myself. And just because I don't have T S I over my toon names doesn't make me a scrub that has no clue what he's talking about. Get your head out of your TRIBBLE kid.
ive used reasoned arguments, i've broken down all my statements. yet youre being very condasending for no reason. i have my thoughts, they include that tactical captain abilities shouldnt increase all damage. just weapon damage.
the problem with your argument here is that a tacitcal captain that decides to focus completely on debuffs still out performs a science captain doing the same thing because the tactical captain has the damage boosting skills, while yet if a science captain decides to do all damage increases he doesnt come anywhere near the potental of the tacitcal doing this. this is not balanced or right, the tactical performs both the debuffing layout and the damage layout better then the science doing either.
my sci sci is still fieldable as well, this has no relation to the fact that dispite how fieldable youre ship is now, a tactical captain could more then likely do it better. (the only exception is pure healing which an engieering captain can do)
there is no captain bonus for using the science captain for debuff powers, while debuff powers that do damage will always get the bonus from a tactical capatin doing the same thing.
and again i say, anything the science does for this the tacitcal can do it too and do it better because of the extra dps he can give all the debuff powers that do damage.
a tac sci's dps is laughably bad sure, but a science captains dps is even worse. the tacitcal captain still does more damage then him and all the same debuffs his bo layout would offer up.
i never insulted you, i never said you were or were not a good player. why are you being such an TRIBBLE to me? im defending my postition that tacitcal captain powers shouldnt increase science damage powers yet youre the one who has done the name calling and insulting.... yet i need to get my head out of my TRIBBLE..... right... :rolleyes:
SNB coupled with that on the other hand? Is much more devastating. And you know it.
He doesn't outperform a sci. He doesn't have the damage dealing capability at that point. You know it, I know it and anyone not smoking some pretty interesting substances knows it.
You need particle gen consoles before your sci skills start doing significant DPS. That's a pretty straightforward fact. I've used Tac Scis, off and on for the past 2 years. I have used sci scis for the same time. I find it hilarious by the way that you never started whining about tac scis being able to boost GW, TBR, and PSW dps, until well after CPB was shot in the face, when Sci Sci went from /faceroll easy to being a hair behind.
(and the only reason they are behind has NOTHING to do with tac buffs. But the Borked Skill Tree instead)
If you really think APA and GDF will help a team more when there are no particle gens on the field, and the sci ship is hitting max aux, than an SNB in that same setup and situation, I have a bridge to sell you.
If you think it's so OP how about you actually field it for a change.
i just kinda skimmed that rant, but i don't see why a tac/sci couldn't slot just as many particle gens or whatever as a sci/sci can. and then stack 3 huge all damage buffs captain powers on them. and then tractor repulser 3 an escort practically to death. im so confuse.
A Tac sci yes can do DPS with sci skills. However the Repel, is best kept Low in order to do dps with it.
Not only that, but a sci sci is better suited to loading up Graviton consoles instead of particle gens, because without particle gens TBR's damage is Pathetic on a tac sci ship. Powers which do not deal DPS at all, similarly are better suited to a sci captain, as there's no DPS to buff. A sci focuses on the Repel in that particular instance, because the repel is far less gimpy to a sci's out put than it is a Tac. Infact the higher the repel the better for the sci captain because it reduces the odds of enemy cross healing being able to undo the damage that the coming SNB is going to give.
What I'm pissed about is Maikai taking a faceroller attitude of "they kicked me in the nuts. Tac sci almost looks semi viable instead of me. I should get it kicked in the nuts too!"
By the way there is only ONE tac sci dps skill worth mentioning. And that's TBR. Grav well Sucks Period.
How is this not painfully obvious?
Sci on the other hand? Can still get either dps, OR a repel out of TBR, they can use Tykens 3 if they have doffs, they make better use of VM3 and VM1 overall than does a tac, and the only remaining function of PSW is also better suited for sci in the Extend Removal department. Yet people want to continue ignoring all of this in the thread, because they are butt hurt that tacs can put #s on the screen when built to the 9s to do so.
Both get equal mileage out of Tractor beam.
Sci get better miles out of Chroniton Torps, and mines, since the dps of that weapon system is Craptastic even with tac buffs.
Sci, honestly with as bad as Warp Plas (which is something being found on more and more sci ships given the sorry state of GW and non tractor beam slows) has gotten are better suited for it than tacs, since the DOT for plas is just so god awful now.
Sci also get better miles out of a given heal skill than a tac can because of Sci fleet and scattering field.
Sci also have a better debuff than do tacs in Sensor scan, whether mai kai wants to fess up to that or not, and consequently MUCH better cloak detection.
Tac sci is not nearly the power house people thinks it is. I can name at least 4 builds off the top of my head that make it look like Trash. Two of which involve Cruisers of all things.
Sci Sci on the other hand still can fufill it's own role. (barely)
Both varieties of Wizard are in serious trouble in this game, and likely won't get fixed anytime soon. Asking to get the other one kicked in the crotch, again out of spite because the /faceroll CPB torpspread build is dead, is just mean spirited.
If the debuffs are worth powering up, the sci becomes more useful than does the tac. Because the thign the tac does, AOE dps, is easily replicated via escorts and Torp Spread 3s paired with CSV2s.
TRIBBLE it, lets kick tac sci in the nuts. AGAIN, lets kick it so hard this time that no one should ever fly it ever. And lets take both consoles and DHCs away from Escorts too. So everyone can fly the stupid TRIBBLE Failboat DEM cruiser builds. Won't that be fun. Or how about better APA should be deleted, cause it adds DPS to anything. That's clearly better than completely removing 75 percent SDR and 65 percent HDR :rolleyes:
That's the point we've been trying to make.
this isnt just about super buffing with consoles for one or the other. if you take the SAME loadout on a sci for crowd control ,and then take that loadout for a tacitcal. the tacitcal does it better.
i dont think thats my point of view, i think its reasonable to think that tactical captains boosting only weapon damage makes sense. nothing else in the game boost damage except for skill trees points. can you honestly say that if tacitcal powers boosted only weapons damage it would compeltely ruin the game then you rely too much on your tactical being a science ship doing more then damage then it should. because he can do everything the science captain can do and the extra dps to boot.
tbr, grav well, tykens rift, shockwave. tractor beam are all increased by the damage bonus from tactical captains. but if only tbr matter then it shouldnt be an issue if the damage is switched to weapons only instead of all right?
I'm wondering why its so painful for you, to require you to resort to name calling and demeaning of the me and other science players, that you can't seem to comprehend a different point of view.
i would argue again that tacticals can also get repel with dps or super dps out of tbr, they can use tykens rift with doffs too. ever see a tykens rift used by a tacitcal with a target subsystem to take down a shield while a supercharged high yield torp+shockwave hits the target? a sci in a sci cant do that.... they can take down the shields sure... but not follow up with the needed punch like a tactical can. so why take the science captain?
i also aruge that since vm and shockwave dont require aux, theyre even MORE suited for a tactical captain since it allows them to run high weapon power on their ship and still smack hard with those powers.
i have no problem with tacs putting insane damage numbers on the screen. when their in their escorts or cruisers with the big guns. its when they can also do this with science powers at the detriment of the science captain that i have issues.
everyone gets equal mileage out of tractor beam. even pets!
so one weapon type out of what... 7? tacticals get better mileage out of every other weapon in the game.
last i saw a buffed warp plasma via tac buffs can still be feared. but i dont recall any science ship that can take this where a tactical in the same ship wouldnt be better. partical generators increase this and shockwave and grav well. oooo tactical captains increase those as well -rolls eyes- charged partical burst isnt increased by tactical powers (thank the gods) but its useless in its own right at the moment.
both of those can be applied by a teammate in a cruiser or escort or by yourself while in an escort or cruiser. the cruiser probably being the better choice for the extra hull heals to compliment the shield resists from sci fleet.
better is up to debate. its lower then it used to be and is aux dependant. cloak detection in this game is laughable at best, and it can be removed with a science team. the only slight edge it has over fomm is that its supposed to be an AOE. all in all though its about as useless as fomm against a good team.
it seems that my argument is that tactical shouldnt boost damage other then weapons. using that it makes tacticals more of choice in science ships then science captains.
your argument is that im playing science wrong, not using them for debuffs.
i've countered youre argument time and time again that any debuff build the science captain can do, the tactical simply does it better because every debuff that does damage gets that much better in the hands of a tactical where the science only has his consoles to work with. there is no argument against that.
im not saying its the end all be all builds, but its always better then any equally equiped/loaded out science captain in the same ship
im not arguing that either, and thats mostly because of the creativity it takes to be a science captain in this game. a tac sci though fufills its role and the science role without question.
its not out of spite, a tactical in an escort would still reap the huge damage numbers it can.
so a tactical with torp spread 3 and csv2... im not following your point here...
tac sci in the nuts again eh? never mind that anything the tac sci got the sci sci got worse.
youre just compairing things that are in no way related. having tactical captains only power buff weapons wouldnt kill the tac sci. it would make you have to actually think how you'd load it out. youre blowing things way out of proportaion in compairison what id like to see.
You people have really convinced yourselves that APA and GDF are > SNB for Debuffing?
When APA and GDF add Jack and TRIBBLE to debuff focused sci ships?
Seriously?
Tell you what, maybe you guys should get together, make yourselves a new premade. Go field 3 tac scis and 2 eng cruisers to keep them together. See how many kills you rack up. Now go do that with 3 sci instead.
apa, and gdf, stacked.....yes, = snb. but only in the hands of those who know how to use it.
any ole joe sophlogimo can spike after a snb. it takes finesse to max an apa and gdf.
But the way cryptic is going im pretty sure TBR and FBP are also nerfed very soon.
Those would be the only 'viable' abilities anyway.
a tac sci can be your worst nightmare if you attack it. they wait for an alpha and fire off a tac buffed FBP that can take half your health if you blow it off and don't notice just how much damage its doing before its too late. when you stop shooting at it or when FBP ends, they use A2B and start their TBR3 with the tac buffs still running to kill an escort by the time it would be done with its alpha. each of those skills fully tac buffed can take more then 50% of your health each, FBP only if your dumb enough to keep shooting regardless of the damage it deals.
ive encountered some that were so good at what they did, you were simply a fool to ever shoot at it, it would just wait for an alpha and murder you. you just had to try to stay away from it, it couldn't be dealt with any other way, not with a team of pugs at least. team work and more then 1 person that knows how to play could handle a situation like that of course, but thats some serious power for a sci ship, all 100% thanks to the tac captain.
there is no other 2 power, 1 player combo that has the ability to wipe out an entire 5 man team in the span of 30 seconds like apa and gdf can......
you have to lock it in at low hull, and really nail your strikes. its there, but hard to capture.
well apa and gdf are not debuffs. theyre buffs. they work completely differently then snb.
i dont think 3 of any one captain type is a good idea. you take those 3 science in science ships and you seriously lack either dps or healing. a good mix is 2+2+1. although i see quite a few 3+1+1's running around. and hell the number of times ive pugged and ended up being 4+1....
ah those glorious berserker rampages, they are why i carry ET3, to get in the danger zone and then immediately get out of it by my self. love doing this in my excelsior and vorcha, 8 beam array dealing no less then 3k damage a shot! thats why you REEEEEEALY shouldn't chase me when i run. watch out for that 1000+ DOT plasma cloud too!
No it can't. TBR at it's best for -pure zone denial- is better at the hands of a Sci. The Repel which you hate so much and find so unpredictable? Is better utilized in the hands of something where distance to target doesn't TRIBBLE the end result. kicking a target 12km out with one single pulse, completely hoses the tacs ability to use repeated pulses on the target. SNB on the other hand? Doesn't Care. It's actually Beneficial, to kick a target harder and farther for the sci using TBR as CC/Zone Denial.
No ands ifs or buts about it. When you kick the target hard enough out, you lose pulse opportunity. You lose the ability to deal DPS. The more Graviton Consoles on said ship, the less each pulse deals in damage. Period.
And you are pissed that, a tac with particle gens, can do DPS at the expense of not being able to kick people straight out of heal ranges of enemy healers. When the sci, gets more time for that SNB to be useful, in further crippling the soon to be vaped target, because the friendly escort went out with you to go dump him some damage. So with Tac TBR you can either A completely Hose your damage potential and put on 3 graviton consoles, or B, at the expense of potentially having your enemy completely healing through your best output, go 3 Particle Gens, but more than likely at least you can force a heal burn or two.
Not it IS NOT reasonable. Sci skills being tac buffable is the entire reason tac sci can even work in the first place. Why do you think that particular combo DIED COMPLETELY, during Season 2.5 -4? It wasn't cause we tac and sci ship lovers were feeling generous to our opponents. It's because without tac boosted sci skills the out put is Pathetic. You know, kind of like how Sci players in general ***** whine and moan about not being able to do anything in 90 percent of the pve content vs a tac. Because you don't have enough weapons, nor weapon power, nor tac consoles, nor boff abilities.
Yeah sure a tac sci can pump some damage if he takes a shield off. But you know what? He ain't going to be setting up the kill with TR3. Because he has no way to stop incoming heals. Like oh I don't know... what class has the only Debuff Captain Skill. Oh Right Sci Captains.
Grav well Is Terrible. Shockwave DITTO. Tykens damage? really? LOL. You might as well start ******** that Escorts have turrets, and tac consoles now, or that DHCs are Imba, because Those three right there? even tac buffed their DPS is Pathetic.
No my argument is that you want to unnecessarily kick tac sci in the crotch, because you don't have your faceroll sci sci anymore. Which is true. You've been on this bent ever since CPB fell out of favor. Lo and behold the mighty mai kai is pissed because he can't rack up Escort #s in a sci ship anymore.
How about actually attacking the Real Problem instead of trying to launch some stupid TRIBBLE crusade. Attack The TRIBBLE Skill Tree and it's 50 percent Auto Resistance.
Oh, can't forget lolarons as well. They get equal mileage out of those. Especially since the sci ship can benefit from the proc and low weapon power still.
And yet look at what everyone fielded on the "Big Boys" during Every Single Tournament. 3+ Sci captains.
Look at what the few remaining teams still field 3 Sci.
Look at what you never see. 3 Tacs, not on a top level team.
Yes they work completely different, and that is my point. The way sci sci and tac sci operate on the field are two totally different animals in the first place.
heck yeah man.
and pls someone throw that guy a hazzards if he is stuck in that cloud and on cooldown......because im about 2 clicks away broadsiding him....and he is about 5 seconds away from the respawn button.
tacitcal +1
right, and in the hands of a tactical it can push really far and still get some extra damage done. see above comment on how that is useful
tactical +1
you just discribed what teamwork is all about, the sci can use his snb from a cruiser that a tactcal science ship has pushed out and a fellow escort or the tac sci can chase down and do with as he pleases. the point i keep trying to make is it isnt right that a tactical can do BOTH crowd control and the extra damage over the science captain using the same crowd control setup
if thats the only reason a tac sci can work as you put it then maybe youre not flying it right. a tac sci with full cannon/turret loadout and sensor anaylasis can easly do a lot of dps with his buffs, why does he NEED the damage boosts to also boost the science powers? i've never complained about not being able to kill stuff in pve. i still faithfully use my sci ship in pve. its acutally taught me how to make the most for dps with my sci ship.
the only time ive ever complained about science ships was the odd. getting the sensory anlayasis with the 8 weapon slots. and i got banned for that.
well since you've used so many examples of team play, where his team mate sci cruiser at to strip him?
i stated all the powers that i know of that can be boosted. if youre unwilling to see how they can be used to great effect by a tac sci over a sci sci then its not my problem.
cpb fell out at the begining of the year. i adjusted my play style. ive adjusted my playstyle (and shared many of the builds ive created with the community) only to then a couple months later have to compeltely readjust my playstyle because cryptic went and "balanced" something. i can still hold my own when it comes to dps numbers when im not playing with anyone who knows how to fly an escort. but dps numbers has nothing to do with it. tacitcals have always out damaged science players, i know this is how its supposed to be, my question is- why do tactical powers boost science damage and weapon damage? why cant it only boost weapons damage?
i agree the skill tree for the science section needs a major overhaul. i however have no more illusions that anything will ever be done about it.
-1 to everyone .[/QUOTE]
and on a tac sci power drain build they work too! high suck tykens 3 + polarons + target susbsytem + loads of high powered torps flying at you because its a tactical thats doing it.... so again
tactical +1
i cant recall any recent events where there has been that many sciences on a team .the last major tourny was last year before the skill tree revamp. back when sci/sci wasnt a bad thing.
Okay, lets look at what you guys each fielded post f2p.
4 man oddy teams and a bug ship.
3 of which were sci captains, 1 eng, 1 tac.
sound familiar yet?
It's still a sci captain. Still 3 fielded.
The funny thing is, you can still roll 3 sci ships deep, if they were built around TR3s and VMs. Thanks to the new doffs. Why you haven't I don't know. Because really that's a pretty haxcellent setup. (better performed on the KDF side where you can be sci bops instead, with DHCs blasting away granted, but it's hardly a slouch fedside)
In any case, if sci captains were so screwed, you wouldn't be fielding 3 of them. You'd treat em like borderlined lepers, like tacs are without at least 2 to 3 SNBs to hose a target with.
In what dream world exactly? TBR doesn't crit the same way it used to anymore. They fixed the Crit Chain issue. You get 1 crit sequence (on one target) unless you are extraordinarily lucky. Oh, and if you kick a guy out 12km and his buddies, your DPS is hosed by that. Your DPS is even more abysmal by having gravitons (the only way to reliably kick people around) instead of particle gens. +2 Sci.
If your idea of extra damage is un consoled TBR you better start whining about escorts. Sci +1
And it's crowd control isn't as good as what the sci can do with it, unless he hoses his damage potential, where as the sci loses nothing there. While maintaing the ability to completely remove defensive buffs. Sci +1
Also where's the sci cruiser? Probably lagging behind the sci sci and tac scort. Because I don't know if you've noticed, Oddys are Fat Kids. Or, hey, he might have Aux ID or some TRIBBLE and dump an snb out too. You can have a sci cruiser and a sci sci.
LOL, I can tell you don't fly Escorts, if you call that alot of damage potential. LOL, lots of potential. With 6 weapons and Sen AN? Sorry Sen An doesn't make up for losing 1 to 2 tac consoles, 1 weapon, and losing DHCs, and higher tier tac skills. Try again. Nor does sci cc power, without Snb being delivered with it, make up the gap either. You Need Tac Buffs, and even then you will lag behind a good scort. Not by too much, but it's definitely noticable.
And the powers you listed, by and large have 0 practical DPS applications outside of TBR. Gravity well is Terrible, both because it's #s are too low without shields being brought down, and a severe lack of dps on the skill itself, TR even more so, PSW.... it does less than a frigging Torpedo Spread 1. You better start whining about tac skills now bein buffed by APA and GDF if you're going to whine about this. Because tac skills do a far better job with tac steroids being fed to them.
Oh and lets not forget TR's power drain is still aux dependent. Meaning full time duty requires alot of power switching, or aux batteries at best for the tac. It also comes at the cost of not being able to field the dps ability TBR 2 or 3 depending on the TR. Also HY? On a sci ship? That's a No Go, if you're serious about pumping #s as a tac. Mmmm sci get benefits for running higher aux in the increasing of enemy CDs, and bumping up scattering field. +1 Sci.
They boost it because without it, you won't get any kind of viable play out of a sci ship for higher end gaming as a tac. Unless you are being dense just to troll, you know this as well as I do.
There's a reason why tac sci got put away when they took that away the first time. Tac sci went straight into the toilet and remained there till they put tac captain buffs back ontop of sci skills.
capt aint a problem
SV Suck as a whole after f2p.
That is all ......
ps There is no comparison they nerf almost every power but TBR and energy siphon ( dont foret the dev also nerf sci capt) The dev kick sci in the crotch let not wine about the **** they left lets ask for buff / put the powers back the way they were. So we can once again have shield strippers, grav+ewp just good old sick sci builds which have been crushed inbto the ground this isnt a capt debate this need to be buff sci back to be able to compete in alll forms again besides 1 maybe 2.
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