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tactical boosting science
matteo716maikai
Member Posts: 823
Ok, so we all know that Tacitcal captain powers boost science bridge officer damage powers.
why is this?
i dont understand the logical thinking on why this should be allowed, or even the "fluff" reason for it being allowed.
why do tacitcal captains NEED to be able to boost ALL damage and not just energy or torpedo damage?
I heard one argument that this would make tacitcal captians in science ships useless, yet it seams that science captains in science ships being useless is ok. this doesnt make any sense.
if its an issue of trying to split the damage from the others they manage to do that with energy and torpedo/mine consoles. so wouldnt it just be a matter of replacing "any damage" with "torpedo/mine/energy weapon" damage?
what are your arguments for letting tactical captians powers boost all damage?
i personally think that tactical captian damage boosting powers should not effect any non weapon based damage.
why is this?
i dont understand the logical thinking on why this should be allowed, or even the "fluff" reason for it being allowed.
why do tacitcal captains NEED to be able to boost ALL damage and not just energy or torpedo damage?
I heard one argument that this would make tacitcal captians in science ships useless, yet it seams that science captains in science ships being useless is ok. this doesnt make any sense.
if its an issue of trying to split the damage from the others they manage to do that with energy and torpedo/mine consoles. so wouldnt it just be a matter of replacing "any damage" with "torpedo/mine/energy weapon" damage?
what are your arguments for letting tactical captians powers boost all damage?
i personally think that tactical captian damage boosting powers should not effect any non weapon based damage.
Post edited by matteo716maikai on
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HEY MY SCI SCI Don't work no mo... CRY CRY Please nerf everyone else. Zip your lip Mai.
Seriously why should Alpha and go down NOT effect all dmg skills. If they change that then I don't want your sub nuke to effect my tac buffs anymore.
I also don't think sensor scan should effect dmg from regular weapons... sesnor scan should ONLY effect dmg from sci abilities. Get back in your sci ship and forget that recon with real weapons Mai... there is no reason your sensor scan should boost beam dmg.
Yes there would be no reason to put a tactical in a sci ship... it would be a terrible change.
Anyway enough drama... the tactical captain skills work fine... don't blame the tactical in general for Crytpics terrible balance in regards to sci skills. Cry about that.
1: Because tactical captains should be viable in every ship. This way you don't have completely boring gameplay. It opens up a unique combat style, the dps wizard, sci sci is the Debuff Wizard. Trekkies don't seem to grasp that you need this variety. And it still boggles my mind that people don't. Sci sci is more of the debuff wizard, and you should be loading your ships consoles out accordingly. (gravitons instead of Partcles for example)
2: Sci Sci is hardly Useless. (not anymore useless than tac sci anyway) People just don't focus on what sci sci is good for. Which is the Debuff, or zone denial aspects. Because all people wanna see is their # peens get bigger.
3: That is a stupid TRIBBLE idea, no offense. It's bad enough already that the tac can only really apply for two of the three ship classes, and only very specific examples of the third. Why wouldn't the tactical captain, who is every bit as specced in sci abilities as a sci captain, not be capable of knowing how to deal massive amount of damage with spatial anamolies vs anyone else? I mean seriously, how is tactical and strategic knowledge, mutually exclusive to knowing how to dump a shockwave into someone? Answer it shouldn't be. Unless you're jealous of #s.
4: Sci sucks TRIBBLE now thanks to cryptics concerted effort to restore Cruisers Online. Maybe if Debuffs in the skills actually Worked instead of most of them being resisted all to hell, the sci sci could be fully restored in potency. Sci Sci being gimped does NOT mean Tac Sci is OP. It simply means especially in this case that Science Debuffs need some steroids. It's not like Tac Sci is better than Tac Scort, it just flat out isn't. And I play Tac Sci regularly and Tac Scort. Sure you can put up impressive #s. But it's ALOT more work with your boff ability timing than a scort. Ontop of that sci ships aren't as fast, and because of this are more vulnerable to scorts than a sci sci is, since the name of the game for tac survival is Speed. Sci on the other hand can just pop a sci fleet and laugh off the worst of incoming dps, and then sub nuke the TRIBBLE, if it's up.
5: If you really want to think about Suck And Fail, you should try an Engi Sci in anything but a healer role. Completely useless like **** on a bull. Engis have 0 debuffs, and 0 effective dps increasers. Engis need to be shot in the face and rebuilt from the ground up.
Delta - Recluse
Omega - Scimitar
Alpha - MVAM
Beta - Wells
Hey! Starwrathy
And then on topic, ^^ what Ozzie said. Or rzu Daisy now
Let me see if we agree. This is how I see it.
A Cruiser is the ultimate surviver. The engineering captain can make the cruiser survive better than any other profession.
An Escort is the ultimate damage dealer. The Tactical captain can make the Escort deal the most damage.
A Sciship is the ultimate CC/wizard ship. A tac captain can make the Sciship perform better than any other profession.
Am I the only one that smell a rat? Now let's see it from the other side:
An Engineer can make any ship survive better than any other profession can, and deal more damage than a sci captain can.
A Tactical can make any ship deal more damage than any other profession can.
A science can... perform worse than any other profession in all ship types.
The argument with SNB and SS is too weak. They come around once every few minutes and is cleared with one counter. SNB is like a tacscort with a 3 minute CD on his BeamOverload. (And yes, SNB fails about as often as BO, maybe more often, due to a wast supply of oh-**** buttons).
Basically, no matter what ship type you fly, it sux to be a sci.
Well, tac/sci sux, but not as bad as sci/sci...
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about this for too long though. PSW is now garbage, and my prediction is that TBR may not be too far behind. After that, what all is left for tac's to exploit?
Sci ships have lowest number of weapons, tac abilities and tac consoles...yet their "magic" dmg sucks.
Truth is, the low ranked sci heals/buffs are more than enough for any ship, from which especially escorts profit so much. On the other side, you need either high ranked engineering or tactical abilities to be dangerous as the low ranked ones won't cut it.
Gimping tacs in science ships won't solve anything, or rather will make that noone plays those ships.
Tachyon beam = shield breach, debuffs the target shield dmg reduction for duration. Resists would reduce the duration of the debuff, cleared by science team. Duration is improved by Aux. Ideally, a tachyon beam 1 would counter Emergency Power to Shields 1 + 50 shield power effect.
Charged Particle Burst = disables cloak, debuffs the target and prevents shields to be healed by natural regen or abilities for the duration. Resists would reduce the duration of the debuff, cleared by science team. Duration is improved by Aux.
As for boosting science captains in sci ships. I would change sensor scan.
I would remove the dmg resistance debuff, and apply a new buff type that improves the magnitude of all offensive sci effect used on victim.
Tac does the most direct/single target damage... And something, anything else. Notice that all 5 tac captain abilities directly increase damage, none of them alone is overpowered but in combination they simply outdo anything else. If an engineer had 5 tanking abilities they'd be jumping into pvp in near invulnerable NX classes for the giggles.
Science gets AOE damage, debuffs and not getting shot. IE science officers can actually do better or equivalent AOE damage to tacs. This should work well with science ships as there are so many AOE sci abilities. Against a single target they will do less damage but get the debuffs such as SNB. Again no science captain ability is precisely bad, but they lack focus. Then for the debuff side you could have scattering field alter defense/accuracy in your teams favour. Maybe make photonic fleet mess with the enemies targeting.
And a bit off topic...
Engineers lose a bit of tank focus, upgrade engines and become the fastest. Also retain being the best with power levels.
If anyone brings up "support" as a class role please consider that ALL classes should support their team, as suits their strengths. Tacs help the entire team do more damage, scis protect the team from debuffs, engis help with power levels (All of which are in game, maybe not obvious or equal strength).
Lets say we shoot someone who gets healed: He has an initial shield resistance from his shield power so lets say thats about 25%. ge gets 10% from MACO, 18% from EPtS1, 12% from TSS and 30% from an extend.
So some math: 0.75*0.9*0.82*0.88*0.7=0.341 so he has about 66% resi on his shields.
If we say my guns would do 1000 dmg they now do 340.
Now how much can I increase my dmg with tac buffs? If i double it I get 680dmg.
If I would remove his buffs and disrupt the extend he still has his initial shield resi and MACO shield so:
0.75*0.9=0.675
So i would do 675dmg after my sub nuc.
Now if I say two tacs are shooting the target I get 680*2=1360dmg
1 sci with sub nuc and one tac: 675+675*2= 2025dmg
Now i never tested how much dmg increase tac buffs give with with all the crit bonus but if you say you do 4 times the dmg the tac/sci combo still wins.
There are problems of course. Your target might still have an oh **** button and the team might provide further healing. That means you just need very good timing with your spike and sub nuc, maybe a 2nd sub nuc on standby for his oh **** emergency.
In the end in a premade I would take 1eng 2tac 2sci captains. You should have enough spike to rip through an unprotected enemy, the 1. SNB strips his buff and the 2nd his emergency backup.
In fact I have to say when I die it is because:
1. I made a mistake, like pressing the wrong button, sleeping, having a beer in one hand,...
2. There is just too much dmg which is mostly because my team isnt helping me. That can be due to many reasons like the fact that it is pug without healers.
3. SNB
The more competent the players get, the more likely it is number 3 (or 1) that kills me.
Now I havent been in that many high end battles but I got the honor of fighting a group of pandas with my fleet last weekend. Unsurprisingly we lost 15 0 but we very nearly almost killed one and our only chance to get to someones hull was the use of SNB. Also most of my deaths were connected to an SNB.
Now I can see why pugging in a tac might be more efficient. You can still do fine in a sci and personally I have had more fun with a sci.
In a high end battle I can not see how you could win without SNB but than again I lack the experience. Also the defensive buffs of a sci seem quite nice and help the team.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
We had this once, it was call Sci Fleet. Oh wait, we still have that. However, when they removed the "Starship Operations" skill from the skill tree, they took the ability for Sci Captains to boost sci abilities beyond their normal effectiveness. Dontdrunk and I have been advocating for a return of something similar since the F2P skill tree went live.
Well sci fleet was out of hand at one time granting basicly shield resist cap for the entire team....
However I think they could take something like say SPAM FLEET... and remove it all together and replace it with a Sci Self Buff... say a buff that gives you instant, sensor ann (no matter what ship being a captain skill... and yes it should stack with sci ship sensor ann), this skill could also provide say a flat +75 type bonus to operations.
Yes this would be powerful combined with sensor scan... but the game could use the spam reduction... and Sci being able to do some dmg... I'm fine with that.
While there at it Engi needs a dmg buff as well. I would like to see either a cool down reduction on nadion inversion... or a DEM like effect added to it... or better yet both.
Lets face it both sci and engi pale in the face of tac right now... mainly because Cryptic has turbo charged healing. Subnuke is the only skill needed outside of the Tac skill set.
Well when one of the main sci guys in that little TSI fleet... thinks sci has become junk... perhaps there is something to it.
A team can never use enough sub nukes... but its sort of annoying that that is all a sci in a sci ship is good for anymore.
I wonder though, how's a sci gonna be in the new fleet mvam, I saw few sci in old mvam very effective. And that makes me wonder, why doesn't Matteo jump his hardcore sci rear into one of them? Lol.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I'm Mai Kai, from the fleet The spanish Inquisition. As far as I know, I'm still one of the top science players in the game. this thread has nothing to do with what a science captain can or can't do. it has to do with why is it a tactical captain can boost science powers but a science captian cant. its been like this since day one, and i've never understood why that is.
i dont think its right that a tactical in a science ship can make the most of his guns (full weapon power) sensor anylasis (extra weapon damage) and make the most of non aux damage sci powers (like shockwave) and then add all of his extra bonuses from tactical captain abilities on top of all 3 of those.
the extra damage should only apply to weapon damage from a tactical. otherwise it seems tacitcals are better at sci then science.
i know.. it pains me to think that these past 2 years of playing and learning and teaching about science that i myself apparently know nothing of science.
-sad little inquisitor-
And you are fallin right into the trap of # peen syndrome Mai. The thing is, the work that sci sci is supposed to do vs tac sci are two different roles, as I already covered. Sci Sci, go more on the debuff crazy end of things. Tac sci pump damage. It's what both captain types nativly excel at.
Can a tac sci focus on the debuff end? Sure... but he would be TRIBBLE over his best assets in the process which is Damage. Sci on the other hand gains nothing but benefits from focusing on the debuff and zone denial aspect. Sci also does gain from focusing on damage, but it's not the most optimal choice to do so.
I would hope, that after 2 years of playing this game on the level you play at, you'd have figured out Sci Sci = mass debuff powa. Eng Sci = Healer/cleanser and Tac sci = Dps wizard.
I have 0 issues flying my sci sci, that my tac sci doesn't also face. (in that sci powers right now, especially post final death of PSW) My sci sci is also capable of putting up some respectable #s even when I set her up on the debuff end of things vs my tac sci. Sure my tac sci can really hose out damage. But to do so, his zone denial, and debuff capability suffers tremendously in the process.
Also lets face it during CPBs, Scramble, and Chain Stuns reigns, Tac Sci was a complete waste of time next to a sci sci.
epeen has nothing to do with it.
any power the tacitcal takes that does any type of damage and debuffs (i only know of one outright debuff for science powers anyways that isnt covereed by a p2w console and thats vm) does not hinder the tacticals damage, if anything it increases it while hes in command. while the science captain gains nothing from going the debuff route that a tactical could do just as well and more damage on top of it.
crowd control abilities (ams the exception) there is no point in crowd control powers. they all suck. the only power worth taking for commander slot (as a science in a science) is vm. and it is one target only every 60 seconds.
when science crowd control acutally means somthing then science ships will have a place. right now, there is no point in taking a science ship. i've watched the slow degrading of all the science powers be turned into useless slot spots, wave 3 was the last of the damage dealing science control powers. tbr is too unreliable to be considered "crowd control" so i dont include that for this purpose.
all in all science ships have no place in the game right now, anything they could do can be dont better by something else. that being said, tacitcal science ships are more viable then science captained science ships.
since sensor scan lowers hull resistence, why cant dampining/scatter field do the same to shields? or maybe have it nullfy natural shield regen, or anything that would compliment the whole "crowd control" aspect of the class that science is supposed to be. buffs and debuffs are laughable, only 1 science debuff (the captains sensor scan) is a science power, all the other debuffs are tactical based.
i just want science to be fun again and not rely on a single power to be viable in premades, because when that last power gets re-nerfededed there will not be able powers a science can take that would be of any use that an escort or crusier couldnt take for themselves AND deal damage or heal.
and dont even get me started on the friggin fleet ships. some of the most stupidly laid out console bonuses for the wrong ships. why on earth does the dssv have a 5th science slot when its obviously the "engineer" science ship? why doesnt it have a 4th engineering slot?
same with the long range science vessel retrofit. its the SCIENCE/science ship, yet was given a 3rd tactical slot... the only science ship they got right was the recon. 4 science and 4 tactials, since its the tacitcal science ship....
the poor rhode island... -cries-
a major overhaul of the science skill tree would solve 99% of the science power problems.
the other 1% would be fixing the science fleet ships i mentioned.
niether is likely to happen so i'll sit here and be sad that this game i love keeps neglecting the class of ships and captain i love.
By the way did you even notice that escorts, and sci ships are both equally neglected by Cryptic? No?
Did you see all of the cruisers in the last 8 months?
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
You don't take 3 tacs to the field. You take 3 scis. That is and has always been the case. (Infact during scis high points, the only reason everyone didn't field just 5 sci was because no one was that much of a **** )
Yes all CC sucks. That's true regardless of if you are Sci or Tac. I put my Tac back in his MVAM, because sci? Sci powers Suck. That's nothing unique to being a sci captain there buddy.
Sci and tac captains, in sci ships are both Royally Screwed right now. Tac sci is not a damn bit more viable than sci sci is. They are both Toilet Suckers. Don't pretend otherwise. I could go que up right now as both my sci recon and tac recons and get pretty even numbers, and effect on the battlefield. I won't because STO is garbage and I don't play public pvp in Garbage Games, but there it is in a nutshell.
At least Sensor Scan works, unlike FOMM, as far as I'm concerned tacs only have 3 powers. APA, GDF and Tac Fleet. Sci have 4. And yes dampening field (scattering field whatever it's the same power), is worlds beyond FOMM.
The MVAM is right there along with sci ships for Suck For Lucking right now. It only enjoyed a brief time of being a powerful ship, and that time was kicked away, shot in the face and robbed, by the skill tree. Then to TRIBBLE on the grave Craptic introduced the Bugship.
The Fleet Nova, got Bo3 and APO capability at least. It also has 3 tac slots. It's not Screwed, like the MVAM was.
I want sci powers to actually Work again as a whole. Asking for Tacs to get a kick in the crotch is not the answer and we both know it. Because if that happens what is left for sci ships... Engineer Healers. ..... and we both know how lame and uncool that is, compared to what a tholian carrier can pump for heals.
Oh and Branflakes, you're breaking your own forum rules. Just so you know champ.
i think this thread is healthy, and this is my first post in it since im not so great with the sci stuffs. but i know where to go to get good advice for my sci builds....and its with that guy mai kai.
so keep up the fight, i do think that tac buffs should only impact weapons persormance tho, and sci buffs sci abilities. seems to just make sense that way.
have fun kill bad guys
and as the godfather of sci healing chimes in.......