Mostly a science vessel? What canonical documentation do you have to this effect? Star Trek: Armada? One episode of ds9? Seriously, what?
What evidence do you have that it's capable of doing everything equally as well?
There might only be a few references to its science capabilities, but that's more than to the contrary.
Again, outfit a canoe with a machine gun, it becomes a gunboat, like it or not. The clas of ship is a Cruiser, but full of science technology, hence Science Ship.
So is the galaxy. Or any of starfleet's multipupose cruisers. And...the nebula isnt even full of science tech. Its more dependent on the pod than anything. The galaxy probably has more science labs and its a cruiser.
And outfitting a canoe might make it a gunboat, but its gonna be a ****-poor gunboat.
As the nebula will be as a science vessel. What the hell was wrong with it before as a science oriented star cruiser? That i was going to fit with science powers as its lynchpin?
Cryptic as with other MMO's that take place after the Canonical past, are not engraved in what they MUST do in the future.
You're missing the point. I'm talking the "now"; the "future". Regardless of the "canonical past", Cryptic chose to use ship classes and design concepts as seen in the late 24th century. They've already established the "canonical present"--as far as the game is concerned--as not being that dissimilar from 30 years ago.
You can point out the freedom they have as much as you want. It's irrelevant now. They've already exercised it and set their own standard for the present. If they go against their own standard now, the game simply begins to look silly.
As far as the Federation goes, the Prime Directive can be set aside in times of war. So therefore, standards can be set aside.
Uh.... no it can't. That's like saying the US can set aside the Constitution in times of war. It's their.. prime.. directive. Nothing justifies pushing it to the side.
Again, outfit a canoe with a machine gun, it becomes a gunboat, like it or not. The clas of ship is a Cruiser, but full of science technology, hence Science Ship.
Eh?
I'm saying it *should* be considered a science ship. Are you implying I'm saying the Nebula should be a cruiser?
Also according to Memory Alpha the Galaxy-class had this:
The Galaxy-class starship housed over one hundred separate scientific research labs. Very few of the research labs remained under the same discipline of science for more than six months. Most shared the same design; only a few had extremely specialized equipment.
So by your reasoning should this information be used to change the Galaxy-class into a science vessel?
Look, man. Cruiser captains already have two "special" ships they can get. I was just supplying canon reasoning for defining the Nebula as a Science Vessel. That doesn't mean that any ship that has Science facilities should be defined as a Science Vessel.
The real reason to not make it yet another freaking Cruiser is simply because players that choose other ship classes should have some "special" options as well.
Cruiser captains need to stop crying already. You've got the Galaxy X and the Excelsior. If that's not enough for you then that's just your too bad.
Look, man. Cruiser captains already have two "special" ships they can get. I was just supplying canon reasoning for defining the Nebula as a Science Vessel. That doesn't mean that any ship that has Science facilities should be defined as a Science Vessel.
The real reason to not make it yet another freaking Cruiser is simply because players that choose other ship classes should have some "special" options as well.
Cruiser captains need to stop crying already. You've got the Galaxy X and the Excelsior. If that's not enough for you then that's just your too bad.
:cool:
Assuming I'm a cruiser only captain of course, which I'm not. My two main characters are science ship captains. The main issue is that this ship just doesn't sound like a good science ship when compared to the ones we've got at the moment.
Assuming I'm a cruiser only captain of course, which I'm not. My two main characters are science ship captains. The main issue is that this ship just doesn't sound like a good science ship when compared to the ones we've got at the moment.
It also predates most all of the classes now available as science ships. It's only natural that newer designs would fit the role better since Starfleet has been more focused on roles for their ships post Nebula/Galaxy.
Though I'd still rather see the Intrepid as a light cruiser or escort, but meh...
It also predates most all of the classes now available as science ships. It's only natural that newer designs would fit the role better since Starfleet has been more focused on roles for their ships post Nebula/Galaxy.
Though I'd still rather see the Intrepid as a light cruiser or escort, but meh...
By this reasoning the Excelsior-class at T5 should be worse than the other T5 cruisers, shouldn't it?
Look, man. Cruiser captains already have two "special" ships they can get. I was just supplying canon reasoning for defining the Nebula as a Science Vessel. That doesn't mean that any ship that has Science facilities should be defined as a Science Vessel.
The real reason to not make it yet another freaking Cruiser is simply because players that choose other ship classes should have some "special" options as well.
Cruiser captains need to stop crying already. You've got the Galaxy X and the Excelsior. If that's not enough for you then that's just your too bad.
:cool:
Starfleet's core is made up of Cruisers. Yes, they have some escorts and some science vessels, but the core is cruisers.
Cruiser / Capital ships (IE the largest ships in the fleet)
Escort / Warship - Smallest, but most powerful (damage wise) ships
Defiant - Escort
Prometheus - Escort (though I would contend the Prometheus is a cruiser)
Akira - Escort (same as Prometheus, based on size, I'd call this a cruiser)
Steamrunner - Escort
Norway - Escort
Sabre - Escort (even though the SCE uses this class as "their" ship)
Oberth - Science
Olympic - Science
Nova - Science
Miranda - Science (More of a multi-mission)
There you have it.
12 cruisers
6 escorts
4 science ships
Combined, the amount of escort classes and science classes don't even add up to the cruisers. And in all that, how many of the escorts and science vessels had screen time compared to the cruisers? Cruisers are much more prevelant in Trek. Period.
By this reasoning the Excelsior-class at T5 should be worse than the other T5 cruisers, shouldn't it?
Absolutely. Excelsior as a T5 ship is ridiculous. It's generations behind other ships there in design and capabilities. It's Cryptic compromising common sense to make players happy.
The Enterprise line shows it pretty well.
The Sovereign class replaced the Galaxy class.
The Galaxy class replaced the Ambassador class.
The Ambassador class replaced the Excelsior class.
The Excelsior class replaced the Constitution class.
That doesn't mean we wouldn't see the odd old-gen ship around, but they would have nowhere near the capacities of newer-gen vessel. if they did then what would be the point of Starfleet even designing a replacement?
Escort / Warship - Smallest, but most powerful (damage wise) ships
Defiant - Escort
Prometheus - Escort (though I would contend the Prometheus is a cruiser)
Akira - Escort (same as Prometheus, based on size, I'd call this a cruiser)
Steamrunner - Escort
Norway - Escort
Sabre - Escort (even though the SCE uses this class as "their" ship)
Oberth - Science
Olympic - Science
Nova - Science
Miranda - Science (More of a multi-mission)
There you have it.
12 cruisers
6 escorts
4 science ships
Combined, the amount of escort classes and science classes don't even add up to the cruisers. And in all that, how many of the escorts and science vessels had screen time compared to the cruisers? Cruisers are much more prevelant in Trek. Period.
I agree on all of this. Including the comments about the Akira and Prometheus. I refuse to use cannons on those ships. Only beams look right, as seen in canon material.
Edit:
Actually... it might be "Birth of the Federation" showing through, but I'm alright if the Constellation were an escort. In BotF it was something of the agile ship you'd use while you were building your tech up to support Defiants.
I really agree with those of you who have mentioned that the core of our issue with ships is the classification system and lack of personal modification options. But I think its highly unlikely that Cryptic will ever change the system, at least not within the next year given all that needs done. Not to mention redoing it would mean that they're original System was fundamentally flawed, which I'm not sure they'll ever admit.
So having said all that, I think that they should do what would satisfy the majority of players. To my mind The original build would have allowed ALL classes to use the ship effectively, and give Sci players a LTC slot on a cruiser, while dealing upper moderate DPS (4-4 hardpoints) and tanking at the same Time. so while Sci players should get a Sci ship, lets just say for a moment that the nebula was given a star cruiser base, Is that really that un-appealing to a Sci player? I mean it would be highly functional imo...No? You could easily make that work, and be effective even if its not quite what you had in mind. Now by comparison the same cannot be said about a Tac or to some degree an Engy player in a sci ship(DSSV). Its simply just not that usefull. Add in that Sci consoles are too nerfed and not as usefull compared to thier counterparts, only 3-3 hardpoints, and smaller hull and I really don't see a Tac or engy being that effective in this build.There needs to be a great new ship with a DSSV base, I just know that the Nebula isn't quite right for it.
Am I missing something?
Its a fundamental issue I know, But I feel like the original would have worked for everyone, but now it just works for Some, and on such a popular design, is that really nessesary? So I guess my question to you all is, was the original build really that bad for a sci player? and Before you answer please compare your Success or failure in that build to that of the Current build with a tac or engy in it....would you still keep it a DSSV base? I really am curious to the mindset here behind the switch to DSSV base, as I don't see alot of them in game nemore. Thanks for humoring me on this shpeal
Escort / Warship - Smallest, but most powerful (damage wise) ships
Defiant - Escort
Prometheus - Escort (though I would contend the Prometheus is a cruiser)
Akira - Escort (same as Prometheus, based on size, I'd call this a cruiser)
Steamrunner - Escort
Norway - Escort
Sabre - Escort (even though the SCE uses this class as "their" ship)
Oberth - Science
Olympic - Science
Nova - Science
Miranda - Science (More of a multi-mission)
There you have it.
12 cruisers
6 escorts
4 science ships
Combined, the amount of escort classes and science classes don't even add up to the cruisers. And in all that, how many of the escorts and science vessels had screen time compared to the cruisers? Cruisers are much more prevelant in Trek. Period.
Oh, I see then. So, since Cruisers are the prevalent vessel of choice for canon, all special ships made from canonical classes should be Cruisers by default. Yeah, !#%( the Science and Escort captains. Who needs them anyway.
It's about more than being canon, dude. It's about being !#%(ing fair to the players. In order to do that the devs have to bend the rules of canon. And I'm sure they would not be allowed to do so unless CBS gave it their seal of approval. So there!
Does everyone know that the original Aircraft Carrier was this:
USS Jupiter:
Laid down on October 18, 1911, USS Langley began its life as the Proteus-class collier USS Jupiter. Launched the following April, Jupiter joined the fleet in April 1913, under the command of Commander Joseph M. Reeves. Shortly after passing sea trials, Jupiter was sent south to the Mexican coast. Carrying a detachment of US Marines, the Navy hoped that the ship's presence would aid in calming tensions during the 1914 Veracruz crisis. With the situation diffused, the collier departed for Philadelphia in October, becoming the first ship to transit the Panama Canal from west to east in the process.
After service with the Atlantic Fleet Auxiliary Division in the Gulf of Mexico, Jupiter was switched to cargo duty in April 1917. Sailing in support of US efforts during World War I, the ship did not return to coaling duty until 1919. Following service in European waters, the ship was ordered to return to Norfolk for conversion into an aircraft carrier. Arriving on December 12, 1919, the ship was decommissioned the following March.
Now everyone does realize that you can put alot of Science gadgets in a Cruiser Hull to make it become a Science Ship.
Just thought you might want to open your eyes to a reality that we are at war, and sometimes hard decisions have to be made.
NO canon is necessary in 2409, no Star Trek movies depict an era past Nemesis (other than bits and pieces of the future) in various shows.
lol, but if we are at war, the last thing we would need is a science vessel... and to the other guy who posted that it is most conologically a sci vessel, i beg to differ, as i stated b4 in this thread, it was only seen once on screen as a sci varient (the pheonix, once on screen as the engineer, and it was most always seen as the torpedo varient, so if you want to argue canon, it should be an escort.... lol.... but i know that it is a cruiser, and thus should be such, so i wouldnt argue the point of escort.... open your eyes, do your homework, then bring your game lol....
Oh, I see then. So, since Cruisers are the prevalent vessel of choice for canon, all special ships made from canonical classes should be Cruisers by default. Yeah, !#%( the Science and Escort captains. Who needs them anyway.
It's about more than being canon, dude. It's about being !#%(ing fair to the players. In order to do that the devs have to bend the rules of canon. And I'm sure they would not be allowed to do so unless CBS gave it their seal of approval. So there!
:cool:
Or they should look into a less broken mechanic for ship capabilities- preferably one that could use the above list as a basis but allow modding afterwards.
Also... why do you assume different classes should inherently be given the same number of ships?
If you really really want a certain ship, nothing is stopping you from getting one. We're not limited to ship class based on our captain class, you know.
I don't see Federation captains complaining about not being able to fly Klingon ships, and in that case they can't fly them -at all-.
Or they should look into a less broken mechanic for ship capabilities- preferably one that could use the above list as a basis but allow modding afterwards.
Yeah, maybe they should rewrite the entire freaking game just because people want to complain that all that is canon is cruisers. Sorry, the game is made. New features must be added into the engine as it is. We can't realistically ask the devs to rewrite every scrap of code just to keep everything perfectly in line with canon. CBS obviously doesn't. Again, the devs wouldn't have been able to make it a Science Vessel without their okay.
Also... why do you assume different classes should inherently be given the same number of ships?
If you really really want a certain ship, nothing is stopping you from getting one. We're not limited to ship class based on our captain class, you know.
Maybe because I have 10 Fed characters, 3 Cruiser captains, 3 Science captains and 4 Escort captains and maybe I don't want to respec and change one of my Science captains into a Cruiser captain just to fly a ship I like. Maybe because I like using my tier 4 Science BOff skills. Maybe because I don't want to be pushed in a single direction in order to fly a ship that exists in canon.
I don't see Federation captains complaining about not being able to fly Klingon ships, and in that case they can't fly them -at all-.
That's just stupid. We're talking about being fair between the classes of ships, not allowing anyone to fly any ship in the game. Sure, I can respec all of my characters into Cruiser captains, but that wouldn't give me any kind of variety in game play, now would it?
You get to use different skills when you are flying a Science Vessel than you do in a Cruiser. Players like those skills. But oh, yeah, let's not give the people who like using those skills anything special. The special stuff is all reserved for people who want to tank tank tank. Does that seem fair?
Look at it from the Science captain's point of view. Why should I give up the skills I have trained in in order to get access to a "special" canon ship, especially considering that two other "special" canon ships have already been created for Cruiser captains?
I'd like to chime in here, having had the chance to play around with the Nebula class a bit.
As of this writing, the Nebula is a Science Vessel, with 3 hard points front and 3 back, and stacked with Science consoles. That may be subject to change, but I think it is a good fit.
Why? Because gameplay-wise, the Nebula is a solid support ship. The low-tier version has an impressive scan ability, and the high-tier is able to create a tachyon web amongst nearby ships, which increases stealth detection by a good margin. This is a very effective PVP vessel because it can smoke out cloaked enemies from a wider distance than standard sensor scan, and good timing can shut down a cloak rush before it happens.
This also makes it a high-priority target for teams that use cloak, because if you are able to knock out the Nebula before it uses its ability you are free to use battle cloak more effectively until the Nebula re-enters the fight.
And since the Nebula currently has a universal boff station, there is a large amount of flexibility available. Obviously not as much as a Bird-of-prey, but a skilled Nebula captain will undoubtedly be able to turn fights to his or her advantage by predicting rushes and adjusting accordingly.
And keep in mind that boffs can be traded out during PVP as long as the ship is out of combat, so the amount of flexibility on the Nebula is unparalleled on the Fed side.
Yeah, maybe they should rewrite the entire freaking game just because people want to complain that all that is canon is cruisers. Sorry, the game is made. New features must be added into the engine as it is. We can't realistically ask the devs to rewrite every scrap of code just to keep everything perfectly in line with canon. CBS obviously doesn't. Again, the devs wouldn't have been able to make it a Science Vessel without their okay.
Dramatic much?
Classes don't honestly mean a whole lot, you know. In fact it's a pretty abstract and practically meaningless separation. The real difference comes down to what consoles the different ships have. And even then it's not like cruisers can really "tank" and it's not like science vessels spend all their time healing. They could very easily remodel the class structure with minimal game changes.
Maybe because I have 10 Fed characters, 3 Cruiser captains, 3 Science captains and 4 Escort captains and maybe I don't want to respec and change one of my Science captains into a Cruiser captain just to fly a ship I like. Maybe because I like using my tier 4 Science BOff skills. Maybe because I don't want to be pushed in a single direction in order to fly a ship that exists in canon.
You realize that claiming to have ten characters actually hurts your case, right? You, as a player, have all of the ships readily available at your fingertips across your different captains. People with fewer slots and both Fed & KDF characters have a much stronger case than you do.
Besides... if you want any ship for any character to work perfectly well, you'll need a pretty radical change to the class mechanics as well. And... weren't you just pointing out how impossible that is?
That's just stupid. We're talking about being fair between the classes of ships, not allowing anyone to fly any ship in the game. Sure, I can respec all of my characters into Cruiser captains, but that wouldn't give me any kind of variety in game play, now would it?
It's just as stupid to expect equal availability across classes as equal available across factions. Factions have different ships for a reason. Classes have different ships for a reason. If you insist they blur the line of one so you can get what you want, you might as well also insist they blur the line between the other.
You get to use different skills when you are flying a Science Vessel than you do in a Cruiser. Players like those skills. But oh, yeah, let's not give the people who like using those skills anything special. The special stuff is all reserved for people who want to tank tank tank. Does that seem fair?
Yes... that seems perfectly fair to me, given the setting of the game.
Look at it from the Science captain's point of view. Why should I give up the skills I have trained in in order to get access to a "special" canon ship, especially considering that two other "special" canon ships have already been created for Cruiser captains?
I have a science captain and I'd never expect to get the same science-oriented performance out of non-science verssels.
By your logic the only way everyone will be happy is if every ship is available as every class. Even you must realize how stupid that'd become.
For those that think that classes of ships doesn't matter in this game? Try telling that to a science officer that wants to use his Commander Science Bridge Officer Skills.
For those that think that classes of ships doesn't matter in this game? Try telling that to a science officer that wants to use his Commander Science Bridge Officer Skills.
Consoles, BOFF stations, hardpoints, etc., are all determined on a ship-by-ship basis. The class they've put the ship under is little more than conceptual guidelines; it has very little practical meaning.
Consoles, BOFF stations, hardpoints, etc., are all determined on a ship-by-ship basis. The class they've put the ship under is little more than conceptual guidelines; it has very little practical meaning.
NO CRUISER HAS A COMMANDER LEVEL SCIENCE OFFICER SEAT!
NO CRUISER HAS A COMMANDER LEVEL SCIENCE OFFICER SEAT!
Nuff said yet?
:cool:
Which has nothing to do with the "cruiser" class. Cryptic could determine at any time that they want to put a commander-level science officer seat on a ship within the cruiser class. The class itself doesn't force any hard limits or requirements.
Oh, I see then. So, since Cruisers are the prevalent vessel of choice for canon, all special ships made from canonical classes should be Cruisers by default. Yeah, !#%( the Science and Escort captains. Who needs them anyway.
It's about more than being canon, dude. It's about being !#%(ing fair to the players. In order to do that the devs have to bend the rules of canon. And I'm sure they would not be allowed to do so unless CBS gave it their seal of approval. So there!
:cool:
guy the list you laid down, however accurate to what is in canon, is not acurate in escort, the akira is actually longer than the nebula, and is a multi platform cruiser "carrier". it is however classififed as a cruiser.
As someone who has always flown science ships all the way to T5, unless the turn rating is upped bigtime from the original speculation from CaptainGeko, this. will. be. a terrible. science. ship.
I would have preferred it as a cruiser, simply because if it's not going to have the turn rate to use so many of it's science abilities, at least it'd have the hull and weapons to make up for it.
As is, other than flying it around just cause it's the new shiny shiny, it'll be useless. :mad::(
As someone who has always flown science ships all the way to T5, unless the turn rating is upped bigtime from the original speculation from CaptainGeko, this. will. be. a terrible. science. ship.
I would have preferred it as a cruiser, simply because if it's not going to have the turn rate to use so many of it's science abilities, at least it'd have the hull and weapons to make up for it.
As is, other than flying it around just cause it's the new shiny shiny, it'll be useless. :mad::(
FYI - the designer just pinged me that there was typo in the T5 Boff seating.. (i've updated my original post)... so here's the updated T5 Specs to reflect this...
Tier 5 - Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit: Nebula Class
Weapons:
Fore: 3
Aft: 3
Boff Seating:
1 Lt Tactical
1 LC Engineering
1 En Science
1 Cm Science
1 Lt Universal
Mods:
2 Tact
3 Eng
3 Sci
3 Devices
750 Crew
7 Base Turn rate (same as Sovereign)
Utilizes Retrofit Science Vessel Skill.
Special:
Tachyon Detection Grid - Tachyon Detection Grid will increase your Starship Sensor Stat as well as your StealthSight. Tachyon Detection Grid will also increase the Starship Sensor Stat and StealthSight of all nearby allies. Those allies, in turn, can do the same for allies near them - thus, increasing the overall size of the Detection Grid. Tachyon Detection Grid is not modified by Stats or Auxiliary power.
Exactly. Its more than just the BO slots. The way i see it, this thing's going to have cruiser turn rates, and a larger crew to supposedly make up for it. The larger crew isnt going to make up for it.
Maybe it'll have cruiser standard hull. Or not. But it still only has.....6 weapons. Moving canon aside, something's wrong with it being a science ship as per cryptic's standard for science ships. I feel alot of pressure's being put on that uni slot too.
I do not see why the nebula cant be a star cruiser with LTC or CMDR sci slots, flown by science captains. Its stats as a science ship are neither here nor there. There's even a LTC eng slot already.Forget the conception that cruisers are a class meant for engineers or...cruiser captains, whatever. The excelsior is already an example of a non-escort ship for tactical officers.
Leave it as it is, its a reconfigured, slower DSSV, probably for the worse. Original cruiser spec, you get a tougher ship with a science focus, not as much as the normal T5 sci, but its still there.
And if the argument is just on a purely intellectual basis, there are more cruisers than science ships so it should be a science ship then....i dont understand that. Its like saying you have a problem just seeing the name 'cruiser' there.
Exactly. Its more than just the BO slots. The way i see it, this thing's going to have cruiser turn rates, and a larger crew to supposedly make up for it. The larger crew isnt going to make up for it.
Maybe it'll have cruiser standard hull. Or not. But it still only has.....6 weapons. Moving canon aside, something's wrong with it being a science ship as per cryptic's standard for science ships. I feel alot of pressure's being put on that uni slot too.
I do not see why the nebula cant be a star cruiser with LTC or CMDR sci slots, flown by science captains. Its stats as a science ship are neither here nor there. There's even a LTC eng slot already.Forget the conception that cruisers are a class meant for engineers or...cruiser captains, whatever. The excelsior is already an example of a non-escort ship for tactical officers.
Leave it as it is, its a reconfigured, slower DSSV, probably for the worse. Original cruiser spec, you get a tougher ship with a science focus, not as much as the normal T5 sci, but its still there.
And if the argument is just on a purely intellectual basis, there are more cruisers than science ships so it should be a science ship then....i dont understand that. Its like saying you have a problem just seeing the name 'cruiser' there.
T5 Cruiser for a Science Captain spec'ed out for top tier science skills = pointless. I like my Gravity Well 3, Tyken's Rift 3, Viral Matrix 3 and the like...so telling me to go cruiser is a no no.
T5 Cruiser for a Science Captain spec'ed out for top tier science skills = pointless. I like my Gravity Well 3, Tyken's Rift 3, Viral Matrix 3 and the like...so telling me to go cruiser is a no no.
If thats the case, then you just wouldnt use the star cruiser nebula. If you really needed a full spec of top tier sci skills, you'd go use the dssv. The nebula is practically a worse DSSV as it is now anyway. You cant even have more than one LTC sci skill in this trashcan, it only has the CMDR sci but a LTC eng.
You're missing the point. I'm talking the "now"; the "future". Regardless of the "canonical past", Cryptic chose to use ship classes and design concepts as seen in the late 24th century. They've already established the "canonical present"--as far as the game is concerned--as not being that dissimilar from 30 years ago.
You can point out the freedom they have as much as you want. It's irrelevant now. They've already exercised it and set their own standard for the present. If they go against their own standard now, the game simply begins to look silly.
Uh.... no it can't. That's like saying the US can set aside the Constitution in times of war. It's their.. prime.. directive. Nothing justifies pushing it to the side.
Eh?
I'm saying it *should* be considered a science ship. Are you implying I'm saying the Nebula should be a cruiser?
Here is the Prime Directive Clause: It refers to "Captains Discretion":
There are two general exceptions to the Prime Directive:
The first is in cases where an extreme threat to the Federation exists. General Order 24 authorizes a Captain to order the destruction of an entire civilization under certain circumstances. (TOS: "A Taste of Armageddon", "Whom Gods Destroy") The "Omega Directive" is triggered when a Starfleet vessel encounters an Omega molecule. When the Omega Directive is in force, the Prime Directive is rescinded. (Due to issues of security, only Starfleet officers ranked Captain and above are privy to knowledge of this directive.) (VOY: "The Omega Directive")
The second is in the event that a protected civilization has already been exposed to the knowledge of superior technologies and off-world civilizations. (TOS: "A Piece of the Action", "A Private Little War") In these cases, Starfleet officers often attempted to repair the damage caused by either inadvertent or deliberate exposure. (TNG: "Who Watches The Watchers")
I am not really sure of your position, you seem to be against the Nebula Science ship idea in answering my post about canon.
Comments
What evidence do you have that it's capable of doing everything equally as well?
There might only be a few references to its science capabilities, but that's more than to the contrary.
So is the galaxy. Or any of starfleet's multipupose cruisers. And...the nebula isnt even full of science tech. Its more dependent on the pod than anything. The galaxy probably has more science labs and its a cruiser.
And outfitting a canoe might make it a gunboat, but its gonna be a ****-poor gunboat.
As the nebula will be as a science vessel. What the hell was wrong with it before as a science oriented star cruiser? That i was going to fit with science powers as its lynchpin?
You're missing the point. I'm talking the "now"; the "future". Regardless of the "canonical past", Cryptic chose to use ship classes and design concepts as seen in the late 24th century. They've already established the "canonical present"--as far as the game is concerned--as not being that dissimilar from 30 years ago.
You can point out the freedom they have as much as you want. It's irrelevant now. They've already exercised it and set their own standard for the present. If they go against their own standard now, the game simply begins to look silly.
Uh.... no it can't. That's like saying the US can set aside the Constitution in times of war. It's their.. prime.. directive. Nothing justifies pushing it to the side.
Eh?
I'm saying it *should* be considered a science ship. Are you implying I'm saying the Nebula should be a cruiser?
Look, man. Cruiser captains already have two "special" ships they can get. I was just supplying canon reasoning for defining the Nebula as a Science Vessel. That doesn't mean that any ship that has Science facilities should be defined as a Science Vessel.
The real reason to not make it yet another freaking Cruiser is simply because players that choose other ship classes should have some "special" options as well.
Cruiser captains need to stop crying already. You've got the Galaxy X and the Excelsior. If that's not enough for you then that's just your too bad.
:cool:
Assuming I'm a cruiser only captain of course, which I'm not. My two main characters are science ship captains. The main issue is that this ship just doesn't sound like a good science ship when compared to the ones we've got at the moment.
It also predates most all of the classes now available as science ships. It's only natural that newer designs would fit the role better since Starfleet has been more focused on roles for their ships post Nebula/Galaxy.
Though I'd still rather see the Intrepid as a light cruiser or escort, but meh...
By this reasoning the Excelsior-class at T5 should be worse than the other T5 cruisers, shouldn't it?
Starfleet's core is made up of Cruisers. Yes, they have some escorts and some science vessels, but the core is cruisers.
Cruiser / Capital ships (IE the largest ships in the fleet)
Constitution - Cruiser
Constellation - Cruiser
Excelsior - Cruiser
Ambassador - Cruiser
Galaxy - Cruiser
Sovereign - Cruiser
Nebula - Cruiser
Intrepid - Cruiser
New Orleans - Cruiser
Cheynee - Cruiser
Niagra - Cruiser
Springfield - Cruiser
Escort / Warship - Smallest, but most powerful (damage wise) ships
Defiant - Escort
Prometheus - Escort (though I would contend the Prometheus is a cruiser)
Akira - Escort (same as Prometheus, based on size, I'd call this a cruiser)
Steamrunner - Escort
Norway - Escort
Sabre - Escort (even though the SCE uses this class as "their" ship)
Science Vessels - Multiple sizes, low armament and low defensive capabilities
Oberth - Science
Olympic - Science
Nova - Science
Miranda - Science (More of a multi-mission)
There you have it.
12 cruisers
6 escorts
4 science ships
Combined, the amount of escort classes and science classes don't even add up to the cruisers. And in all that, how many of the escorts and science vessels had screen time compared to the cruisers? Cruisers are much more prevelant in Trek. Period.
Absolutely. Excelsior as a T5 ship is ridiculous. It's generations behind other ships there in design and capabilities. It's Cryptic compromising common sense to make players happy.
The Enterprise line shows it pretty well.
The Sovereign class replaced the Galaxy class.
The Galaxy class replaced the Ambassador class.
The Ambassador class replaced the Excelsior class.
The Excelsior class replaced the Constitution class.
That doesn't mean we wouldn't see the odd old-gen ship around, but they would have nowhere near the capacities of newer-gen vessel. if they did then what would be the point of Starfleet even designing a replacement?
I agree on all of this. Including the comments about the Akira and Prometheus. I refuse to use cannons on those ships. Only beams look right, as seen in canon material.
Edit:
Actually... it might be "Birth of the Federation" showing through, but I'm alright if the Constellation were an escort. In BotF it was something of the agile ship you'd use while you were building your tech up to support Defiants.
So having said all that, I think that they should do what would satisfy the majority of players. To my mind The original build would have allowed ALL classes to use the ship effectively, and give Sci players a LTC slot on a cruiser, while dealing upper moderate DPS (4-4 hardpoints) and tanking at the same Time. so while Sci players should get a Sci ship, lets just say for a moment that the nebula was given a star cruiser base, Is that really that un-appealing to a Sci player? I mean it would be highly functional imo...No? You could easily make that work, and be effective even if its not quite what you had in mind. Now by comparison the same cannot be said about a Tac or to some degree an Engy player in a sci ship(DSSV). Its simply just not that usefull. Add in that Sci consoles are too nerfed and not as usefull compared to thier counterparts, only 3-3 hardpoints, and smaller hull and I really don't see a Tac or engy being that effective in this build.There needs to be a great new ship with a DSSV base, I just know that the Nebula isn't quite right for it.
Am I missing something?
Its a fundamental issue I know, But I feel like the original would have worked for everyone, but now it just works for Some, and on such a popular design, is that really nessesary? So I guess my question to you all is, was the original build really that bad for a sci player? and Before you answer please compare your Success or failure in that build to that of the Current build with a tac or engy in it....would you still keep it a DSSV base? I really am curious to the mindset here behind the switch to DSSV base, as I don't see alot of them in game nemore. Thanks for humoring me on this shpeal
Oh, I see then. So, since Cruisers are the prevalent vessel of choice for canon, all special ships made from canonical classes should be Cruisers by default. Yeah, !#%( the Science and Escort captains. Who needs them anyway.
It's about more than being canon, dude. It's about being !#%(ing fair to the players. In order to do that the devs have to bend the rules of canon. And I'm sure they would not be allowed to do so unless CBS gave it their seal of approval. So there!
:cool:
lol, but if we are at war, the last thing we would need is a science vessel... and to the other guy who posted that it is most conologically a sci vessel, i beg to differ, as i stated b4 in this thread, it was only seen once on screen as a sci varient (the pheonix, once on screen as the engineer, and it was most always seen as the torpedo varient, so if you want to argue canon, it should be an escort.... lol.... but i know that it is a cruiser, and thus should be such, so i wouldnt argue the point of escort.... open your eyes, do your homework, then bring your game lol....
Or they should look into a less broken mechanic for ship capabilities- preferably one that could use the above list as a basis but allow modding afterwards.
Also... why do you assume different classes should inherently be given the same number of ships?
If you really really want a certain ship, nothing is stopping you from getting one. We're not limited to ship class based on our captain class, you know.
I don't see Federation captains complaining about not being able to fly Klingon ships, and in that case they can't fly them -at all-.
Yeah, maybe they should rewrite the entire freaking game just because people want to complain that all that is canon is cruisers. Sorry, the game is made. New features must be added into the engine as it is. We can't realistically ask the devs to rewrite every scrap of code just to keep everything perfectly in line with canon. CBS obviously doesn't. Again, the devs wouldn't have been able to make it a Science Vessel without their okay.
Maybe because I have 10 Fed characters, 3 Cruiser captains, 3 Science captains and 4 Escort captains and maybe I don't want to respec and change one of my Science captains into a Cruiser captain just to fly a ship I like. Maybe because I like using my tier 4 Science BOff skills. Maybe because I don't want to be pushed in a single direction in order to fly a ship that exists in canon.
That's just stupid. We're talking about being fair between the classes of ships, not allowing anyone to fly any ship in the game. Sure, I can respec all of my characters into Cruiser captains, but that wouldn't give me any kind of variety in game play, now would it?
You get to use different skills when you are flying a Science Vessel than you do in a Cruiser. Players like those skills. But oh, yeah, let's not give the people who like using those skills anything special. The special stuff is all reserved for people who want to tank tank tank. Does that seem fair?
Look at it from the Science captain's point of view. Why should I give up the skills I have trained in in order to get access to a "special" canon ship, especially considering that two other "special" canon ships have already been created for Cruiser captains?
:cool:
What about those who don't PvP?
Just wondering.
Dramatic much?
Classes don't honestly mean a whole lot, you know. In fact it's a pretty abstract and practically meaningless separation. The real difference comes down to what consoles the different ships have. And even then it's not like cruisers can really "tank" and it's not like science vessels spend all their time healing. They could very easily remodel the class structure with minimal game changes.
You realize that claiming to have ten characters actually hurts your case, right? You, as a player, have all of the ships readily available at your fingertips across your different captains. People with fewer slots and both Fed & KDF characters have a much stronger case than you do.
Besides... if you want any ship for any character to work perfectly well, you'll need a pretty radical change to the class mechanics as well. And... weren't you just pointing out how impossible that is?
It's just as stupid to expect equal availability across classes as equal available across factions. Factions have different ships for a reason. Classes have different ships for a reason. If you insist they blur the line of one so you can get what you want, you might as well also insist they blur the line between the other.
Yes... that seems perfectly fair to me, given the setting of the game.
I have a science captain and I'd never expect to get the same science-oriented performance out of non-science verssels.
By your logic the only way everyone will be happy is if every ship is available as every class. Even you must realize how stupid that'd become.
Consoles, BOFF stations, hardpoints, etc., are all determined on a ship-by-ship basis. The class they've put the ship under is little more than conceptual guidelines; it has very little practical meaning.
NO CRUISER HAS A COMMANDER LEVEL SCIENCE OFFICER SEAT!
Nuff said yet?
:cool:
Which has nothing to do with the "cruiser" class. Cryptic could determine at any time that they want to put a commander-level science officer seat on a ship within the cruiser class. The class itself doesn't force any hard limits or requirements.
guy the list you laid down, however accurate to what is in canon, is not acurate in escort, the akira is actually longer than the nebula, and is a multi platform cruiser "carrier". it is however classififed as a cruiser.
I would have preferred it as a cruiser, simply because if it's not going to have the turn rate to use so many of it's science abilities, at least it'd have the hull and weapons to make up for it.
As is, other than flying it around just cause it's the new shiny shiny, it'll be useless. :mad::(
I couldn't agree more.
As said here
So the turn rate is better than a galaxy, and it does not give up an Ensign slot.
The turn rate is still garbage for a Science ship.
Maybe it'll have cruiser standard hull. Or not. But it still only has.....6 weapons. Moving canon aside, something's wrong with it being a science ship as per cryptic's standard for science ships. I feel alot of pressure's being put on that uni slot too.
I do not see why the nebula cant be a star cruiser with LTC or CMDR sci slots, flown by science captains. Its stats as a science ship are neither here nor there. There's even a LTC eng slot already.Forget the conception that cruisers are a class meant for engineers or...cruiser captains, whatever. The excelsior is already an example of a non-escort ship for tactical officers.
Leave it as it is, its a reconfigured, slower DSSV, probably for the worse. Original cruiser spec, you get a tougher ship with a science focus, not as much as the normal T5 sci, but its still there.
And if the argument is just on a purely intellectual basis, there are more cruisers than science ships so it should be a science ship then....i dont understand that. Its like saying you have a problem just seeing the name 'cruiser' there.
T5 Cruiser for a Science Captain spec'ed out for top tier science skills = pointless. I like my Gravity Well 3, Tyken's Rift 3, Viral Matrix 3 and the like...so telling me to go cruiser is a no no.
If thats the case, then you just wouldnt use the star cruiser nebula. If you really needed a full spec of top tier sci skills, you'd go use the dssv. The nebula is practically a worse DSSV as it is now anyway. You cant even have more than one LTC sci skill in this trashcan, it only has the CMDR sci but a LTC eng.
Here is the Prime Directive Clause: It refers to "Captains Discretion":
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Prime_Directive
There are two general exceptions to the Prime Directive:
The first is in cases where an extreme threat to the Federation exists. General Order 24 authorizes a Captain to order the destruction of an entire civilization under certain circumstances. (TOS: "A Taste of Armageddon", "Whom Gods Destroy") The "Omega Directive" is triggered when a Starfleet vessel encounters an Omega molecule. When the Omega Directive is in force, the Prime Directive is rescinded. (Due to issues of security, only Starfleet officers ranked Captain and above are privy to knowledge of this directive.) (VOY: "The Omega Directive")
The second is in the event that a protected civilization has already been exposed to the knowledge of superior technologies and off-world civilizations. (TOS: "A Piece of the Action", "A Private Little War") In these cases, Starfleet officers often attempted to repair the damage caused by either inadvertent or deliberate exposure. (TNG: "Who Watches The Watchers")
I am not really sure of your position, you seem to be against the Nebula Science ship idea in answering my post about canon.