I dunno, I have quite a lot of fun with my 'HAHA it took you 10 minutes or more with two of you to kill me, and you had to add a 3rd to finally finish me off. and while you were wasting your time doing that the rest of my team had a free hand' *takes a breath* star cruiser.
oh god ... useless to argue .... you watch it from a cruisers perpective. And you forget the stronger shieldsystems (combine this with 35% shields-Console ). And you get very usefull Science abilities ... ever tried Charged Particle Burst III ? or Gravity Well III? No? ... well then ... ok.
And i really think you underestimate targeting subsystems.
MfG Michael
I did forget about the improved shields Science ships get, I will edit accordingly.
However, I stand by what I said: Sceince level commander abilities are inferior in comparison to the other 2 class types.
oh god ... useless to argue .... you watch it from a cruisers perpective. And you forget the stronger shieldsystems (combine this with 35% shields-Console ). And you get very usefull Science abilities ... ever tried Charged Particle Burst III ? or Gravity Well III? No? ... well then ... ok.
And i really think you underestimate targeting subsystems.
EDIT: Aux to struct or reverse shieldpolarity doen't help much when i rip it off as a science with subnucleonic beam .
MfG Michael
See this is the problem: Your best counter is a SCIENCE CAPTAIN SPECIFIC skill...which I can counter with science team freaking 1.
I also forgot to add Reverse shield polarity 3 to the list....thanks for that.
EDIT: Really, that is my biggest gripe. The best counter to a science ship's issues is sub nuc beam...you ask someone who flies a science ship what their most useful ability is, you will hear "oh man sub nuc beam is awesome! you'll be stuck when I use my sub nuc beam on you!"
Which is cool for science captains. You put another class in a science ship however, well, we don't have sub nuc beam. We have several abilities that mess with energy levels, some shield healing skills, and a few snare and hold abilities that are not doing their job properly. I wouldn't mind a more science oriented ship if the actual BOF science skills actually worked more in line with the way they are supposed to for everyone rather than having to rely on the exclusive science captain only skills people talk about right now.
You look on it too PvP (KvFish). If you do PvE, the ability has no value to you, hence why i said "real". You can saucer separate in both PvE and PvP, you can use ablative armor generator in both PvE and PvP...
You have to look on it from overall perspective, not just your own. Beside, if the ability has 5 min cooldown, there is really nothing to be afraid of.
Oh ok, so you looking at it from your own perspective of wanting it to be killer in PVE and having absolutely no concerns as to its potential disasterous effect on PVP is looking at the overall perspective, is it?
So your opinion is the only one that counts? Ok, my bad.
Ever played as a Bird of Prey Captain? Clearly if you have, you haven't done it very successfuly. Battlecloak is one of the most important tactics for being successful at flying a Bird of Prey. Overvalued? Undervalued more like.
Inexperienced feds complain about cloak, inexperienced klingons complain about cloak detection.
Inexperienced Klingons complain about cloak being worthless, precisely as you are saying here, not cloak detection. An experienced Klingon PVPer knows how to manipulate and use Cloak - especialy Battlecloak - to the point where it can be used to counter the growing gap in power between the sides.
Experienced Klingons like myself know how to counter cloak detection currently, an experienced klingon does it without even thinking about it, but the Nebula has the potential of being un-counterable. Whether or not a cooldown will effect how useful it is remains to be seen - the point is, it is a very real potential game breaker.
So maybe the Nebula isn't that great in PVE, but it wouldn't be the first ship thats potentialy better in PVP than PVE or vice versa. You can't have it both ways always.
In PvP you never need to kill all enemy ships. You can kill the easy ones over and over instead.
You misunderstand. If we've slaughtered the rest of the group and we still have a Cruiser sitting there, we're not going to go searching for a new target, we are going to take the Cruiser out. There is no reason any one ship should ever be indestructible in PvP.
You misunderstand. If we've slaughtered the rest of the group and we still have a Cruiser sitting there, we're not going to go searching for a new target, we are going to take the Cruiser out.
And that is a tactical error. Leave the cruiser be and go attack another ship. If you choose to pursue a loosing tactic then expect to loose.
There is no reason any one ship should ever be indestructible in PvP.
Cruisers aren't indestructable...they are destroyed all the time. However, they do take more effort to destroy than an escort and it is foolish not to acknowledge this and adjust your tactics accordingly.
Inexperienced Klingons complain about cloak being worthless, precisely as you are saying here, not cloak detection. An experienced Klingon PVPer knows how to manipulate and use Cloak - especialy Battlecloak - to the point where it can be used to counter the growing gap in power between the sides.
Experienced Klingons like myself know how to counter cloak detection currently, an experienced klingon does it without even thinking about it, but the Nebula has the potential of being un-counterable. Whether or not a cooldown will effect how useful it is remains to be seen - the point is, it is a very real potential game breaker.
So maybe the Nebula isn't that great in PVE, but it wouldn't be the first ship thats potentialy better in PVP than PVE or vice versa. You can't have it both ways always.
Are you saying that experienced klingons wont be able to adapt and overcome that obstacle ? well, then they arent experienced enough.
I battlecloak in battle probably more times than you do, when i pvp with my BoP. I understand the strenghts of the cloak, but i do not overestimate them. And because i understand cloak, i known how to avoid detection when cloaked, or how to deal with cloaked ships on opposite side.
Tachyon grid is a grid, just avoid the grid. The area of effect is pretty predictable and im sure the graphics will be pretty amazing, so everyone will know when its up.
Also, for some spectacular reason, you expect that in every match there will be at least one nebula to ruin the fun for the klingons. Which also says something.
And that is a tactical error. Leave the cruiser be and go attack another ship. If you choose to pursue a loosing tactic then expect to loose.
Cruisers aren't indestructable...they are destroyed all the time. However, they do take more effort to destroy than an escort and it is foolish not to acknowledge this and adjust your tactics accordingly.
Nvm... we disagree and you clearly have not desire to be reasonable...
See this is the problem: Your best counter is a SCIENCE CAPTAIN SPECIFIC skill...which I can counter with science team freaking 1.
I also forgot to add Reverse shield polarity 3 to the list....thanks for that.
EDIT: Really, that is my biggest gripe. The best counter to a science ship's issues is sub nuc beam...you ask someone who flies a science ship what their most useful ability is, you will hear "oh man sub nuc beam is awesome! you'll be stuck when I use my sub nuc beam on you!"
Which is cool for science captains. You put another class in a science ship however, well, we don't have sub nuc beam. We have several abilities that mess with energy levels, some shield healing skills, and a few snare and hold abilities that are not doing their job properly. I wouldn't mind a more science oriented ship if the actual BOF science skills actually worked more in line with the way they are supposed to for everyone rather than having to rely on the exclusive science captain only skills people talk about right now.
You do not argue if Engeneer or Science class is better, do we?
If (thats not for sure) the Science-Nebula gets a Lt Cmd Engeneer BO slot ... you can get Reverse Shield polatrity II or Struct to Aux II ... well it ist not as good as the III-Version but i get other Science BO skills which are not bad. You think Engeneer BO-Skills are superior? Well i do not. i like all three classes. every one needs another strategy.
You do not argue if Engeneer or Science class is better, do we?
If (thats not for sure) the Science-Nebula gets a Lt Cmd Engeneer BO slot ... you can get Reverse Shield polatrity II or Struct to Aux II ... well it ist not as good as the III-Version but i get other Science BO skills which are not bad. You think Engeneer BO-Skills are superior? Well i do not. i like all three classes. every one needs another strategy.
I think the Engi cmdr abilities are better yes. I also believe the options available universally to ALL classes are more open than Science abilities.
I am not judging a ship based on the exclusive trainable options for being a specific type of captain, I am judging it based on being any class and picking that ship up to play with it.
Charged Particle burst 3 and Gravity Well 3 are both only trainable by science captains...likewise Sub Nuc Beam, the ability science ship captains swear by, is only available as a science captain. Where is this variety for other classes to choose from within the science ship class? There isn't much. hat's why other classes ussually will pick anything other than a science ship and its why the cmdr science BOF position is gated against anyone that did not roll a science captain.
In comparison, the most useful cmdr engineer abilities come from skills an engi cannot train and do not come from our captain skills. Aux to Structural 3, Reverse shield polarity 3, are both obtainable by anyone and open up the engineer BOF to MANY different variations because of it that anyone can enjoy.
That is the difference. You talk about strategy, but part of strategy is having choice. Unless you are a science captain, a science ship doesn't give many choices in abilities, especially at the Cmdr rank, the slot that opens up all the options for the other slots for variety.
I just don't get why they don't just give us the three different configuations and be done with it? End these pointless whining threads and just either give us a base ship, and be able to buy the three other pods or buy the ship three different times. Either way, Cryptic is in line to make more money by apeasing EVERYONE!
Nvm... we disagree and you clearly have not desire to be reasonable...
Indeed. We do disagree. However, I have used only reason in my posts. Just because I do not share your sentiments does not mean I didn't apply reason. That is a narcissistic claim.
Indeed. We do disagree. However, I have used only reason in my posts. Just because I do not share your sentiments does not mean I didn't apply reason. That is a narcissistic claim.
I think I disagree with this sentiment. PVP is about teamwork. But this ship most likely is a gimmick and a handicap when it comes to teamwork. The gimmick is being billed as the most important thing it brings to PVP ... the cloak detection net.
As I stated in an earlier post, Fed vs. Fed PVP shows us all that PVP can exist and be healthy with nary a cloak being important to the experience. It won't be much of a shift for players to eschew the use of cloak in PVP (other than battle cloak, which even with this grid still serves a useful function, as I believe Fark hasn't quite seen battle cloak in all its glory properly utilized).
Anyways ... that's the gimmick it provides.
The handicap it provides is ...
As a DSSV ... it's simply not tough enough, or kitted enough to be the primary choice for ... helping your team.
It doesn't seem like it's better than a retro-intrepid at utilizing science powers/tactics.
It definitely won't be the top support ship ... that honor/role still goes to star cruisers. It was, at one time, planned to BE a Star Cruiser, and if that had happened it would have been exactly what Fark was billing it as ... an amazing support ship in PVP. As it is now, it's relegated to the same role DSSVs get stuck doing in PVP ... inferior support, with some fragile defenses.
If it had been made more like an RSV or a Retro-Intrepid, it could pull off the science aspect better. If it had been made like a star cruiser it could have pulled off the healer/support role better.
Instead it's a middling science ship with a mediocre layout and a gimmick.
If teamwork is what PVP is all about, then you better serve your team by taking a ship that maximizes your role more efficiently.
Save your money. Fly a star cruiser. And save your team's posterior far more effectively.
Consoles:
(two options here depending on if the game engine can handle the first option)
Option 1:
2 tac, 2 eng, 2 sci, 2 universal
Option two (if universal consoles can't be made to work)
3 tac, 3 eng, 3 sci
Device slots: 4
Power settings: +3 to all (total +12)
Special power:
tachion detection grid:
grants the science ship's natural stealth detection to self and allies within a radius similar to that of dampening field (should not cascade) for a reasonable duration.
As you can see it's a multi-role design, capable of some potentially very powerfull combinations. However it pays for this versatility by losing access to commander level powers. Furthemore it's base stats (hull, shields, and turn rate) are middle of the road, no major weaknesses but to real strengths either. It has fewer console slots that other end game ships, but it gains the ability to specialise in any fields with it's consoles. It can detect cloaked ships like a science ship, but it doesn't have a magic "I see you button". It can mount cannons but not as many as an escort.
I suspect why it is a Science ship is where it's credentials fit into the ip (hence pssibly CBS input?) as an evolution from the Miranda, then on to Luna (I suspect).
There are various camps who seem to be viewing conflicting views on what qualifies as gameplay satisfaction with regards to the space battle element and function of the three career ship roles.
I suspect if Cryptic had focused on the purity of the role of each career rather than diluting the percieved results from career A vs career B in light of PvP and PvE space battle environments we would be celebrating a classic canon model's introduction rather than debating and lamenting the failure on the part of the design, adjustment and net result of losing that focus.
I can see only more frustration being voiced in this respect as each new ship is introduced.
At some point, something is going to break if it already hasn't happened already.
Maybe its time to ask Cryptic to rethink how they truly make each Career seperate and unique from each other yet equally advantageous and attractive. Much in the same light as the situation faced with the development of the Klingon faction.
I'll never believe the Intrepid is a science vessel. It was launched to capture Maquis in the Badlands--a combat mission, if anything. It was the fastest and one of the most agile ships in the fleet at the time of launch. It had bio-neural gelpacks to improve responsiveness. It was launched with seemingly no dedicated science personnel. It has few science labs, and only the Astrometric Lab is seen often and that wasn't part of the original design.
Let's consider, however -- it wasn't dispatched to hunt down Maquis in the Demiliterized Zone -- it was dispatched to hunt down Maquis in the Badlands. Which is to say, the Federation was sending one of their newest ships, with the most sophisticated computer system and the most sophisticated sensor array ever mounted on a starship, to try and piece its way through the plasma discharges and general subspace chaos of the Badlands to find Maquis.
That screams science vessel. Which is no doubt why a science specialist was chosen to command it.
You're right -- they had few labs and no dedicated astrometrics lab and few scientists. They also had a disgraced officer who'd been kept in a rehab colony on Earth flown out there. They were rigged for a specific mission, with its standard systems pulled and more combat oriented systems (and crew) added. If Voyager had been sent out on a standard long range survey, they'd have been packed to the gills with scientists. As it was, they wanted a crew ready to handle fast paced combat.
Remember, just because a ship has "Science" in her specifications doesn't mean she can't be kitted out for nonscientific missions.
For the record, I'm glad the Nebula's going to be a science vessel -- A) because it has that sensor pod, and that screams 'science' to me, because of the way it was used in one of only two episodes where we saw the interior (hunting down cloaked ships), and C) because it's about bloody time some of the new full ships that are added be something non-Cruiserish.
I'm in favor of the Nebula being a science ship. It's a sensible progression since the last 'special' ship was a cruiser; the next 'special' ship should, therefore, be some flavor of escort/combat ship.* While I would have actually preferred that the Nebula be a more "truly" multirole design (and therefore a master of none) it being a science ship is a good thing, to me. *shrug* YMMV.
* - Since they've done saucer separation on the Galaxy-R, who-all here would want to see multivector attack mode on a Prometheus for the 'special' Escort? Granted, I'm not fond of MVAM, but it would make sense to release this at some point.
I suspect why it is a Science ship is where it's credentials fit into the ip (hence pssibly CBS input?) as an evolution from the Miranda, then on to Luna (I suspect).
There are various camps who seem to be viewing conflicting views on what qualifies as gameplay satisfaction with regards to the space battle element and function of the three career ship roles.
I suspect if Cryptic had focused on the purity of the role of each career rather than diluting the percieved results from career A vs career B in light of PvP and PvE space battle environments we would be celebrating a classic canon model's introduction rather than debating and lamenting the failure on the part of the design, adjustment and net result of losing that focus.
I can see only more frustration being voiced in this respect as each new ship is introduced.
At some point, something is going to break if it already hasn't happened already.
Maybe its time to ask Cryptic to rethink how they truly make each Career seperate and unique from each other yet equally advantageous and attractive. Much in the same light as the situation faced with the development of the Klingon faction.
Truly challenging indeed.
Actually i suspect it's more along the lines of the nebula having such an ill-defined role in canon that everyone wants it to be perfect for their own purposes. Also Star trek fans kind of wrote the book on obsessive nerd behavior. I don't think it's possible to satisfy more than a plurality of us at any one time.
Actually i suspect it's more along the lines of the nebula having such an ill-defined role in canon that everyone wants it to be perfect for their own purposes. Also Star trek fans kind of wrote the book on obsessive nerd behavior. I don't think it's possible to satisfy more than a plurality of us at any one time.
The argument for canon simply fails because the Escort/Cruiser/Science class isn't canon itself. So you can't really argue effectively that the Neb is a Cruiser based on Canon when there isn't a canon classification for what makes a cruiser in the first place.
The Enterprise from both TOS and TNG was quite capable of preforming pretty much any sort of scientific mission, and was also a front line battleship able to hold it's own against the best out there.
It's like trying to argue that a Jedi Knight is more like a D&D Paladin then Ranger...
However a lot of this thread sounds like people are simply upset because they're not getting a new toy. The OP is a prime example of this, he's PO'ed because this ship won't be a cruiser and that's what he wants. The people playing Sci can just deal with what they got, because he wants a new toy.
Canon isn't a good way to decide it so balance and who has the most ships is about the only way to really decide, which means that since the last 2 new ships to come out were cruisers, that there needs to be some love for sci and escort players too.
The Nebula Class in canon was not billed as any specific type of ship. The Nebula was designed to fit a multi-mission profile. Often times the Nebula was used for extensive and specific scientific research projects. The Starfleet Corps of Engineers also used the ship as the backbone of their fleet because it was a universal design that could be loaded out to fit their needs. It also can serve as a tactical ship because of the armaments.
In STO, this ship should be 100% customizable. It should have all BO slots be neutral slots so that any player in the game can make use of it. That would portray the Nebula in game more accurate to it's canonical role.
Your missing the point. I don't think that anyone disagrees that Sci needs resources/ships. I certainly don't. My only contention is why this ship, why the nebula, wrong class of ship to fit these needs. The Science needs should have been met with a different class. I'm sorry if that means waiting a little later, But I'd rather Sci players get a new ship right now and me wait a whole year for a Nebula class resembling Dstahls original build. Its all poor timing, they were about to release thier 3rd cruiser in a row and it looks really bad that thier are no new sci ships...so what do we do, we slap a Science sticker on this class and hope all the disgusted Nebula class fans still pay to play with it....
QFT. Completely agree!
Furthermore, my issue is with the hull classification.
Could we not have the DSSV bridge officer combination (i.e. Commander Science) but still have it classified as a cruiser?
The argument for canon simply fails because the Escort/Cruiser/Science class isn't canon itself. So you can't really argue effectively that the Neb is a Cruiser based on Canon when there isn't a canon classification for what makes a cruiser in the first place.
Yep thats why there is no real definitive list of all of Star Fleet's ships and types as the producers needed to keep the list vague to allow future stories to include both new and old as a storytelling tool. Hence why Cryptic is possibly painting itself into a corner and causing these sorts of balance, us/them frustrations.
It would have been better off (I suspect in the long run) just having a universal ship skills set, with universal properties for each ship class. Where the true differences were noticed, like the stories so often told in Star Trek, were what the crew in the form of the Captain and their BOffs could bring to the ship. This could come in a variety of formats and all provide a better more fairer experience to all concerned, avoiding possible ip/canon/balance angst to boot.
You could then provide a more tailored flavour to your ship of choice based on the career and level of the captain, their choice in skills and composition of your Boffs that did not necessarily translate to high dpsing nor a cookie cutter mentality or flavour of the month ship etc
Comments
And this is a design problem through and through.
Sounds more like foolish players attacking a cruiser rather than moving on to a better target.
I did forget about the improved shields Science ships get, I will edit accordingly.
However, I stand by what I said: Sceince level commander abilities are inferior in comparison to the other 2 class types.
See this is the problem: Your best counter is a SCIENCE CAPTAIN SPECIFIC skill...which I can counter with science team freaking 1.
I also forgot to add Reverse shield polarity 3 to the list....thanks for that.
EDIT: Really, that is my biggest gripe. The best counter to a science ship's issues is sub nuc beam...you ask someone who flies a science ship what their most useful ability is, you will hear "oh man sub nuc beam is awesome! you'll be stuck when I use my sub nuc beam on you!"
Which is cool for science captains. You put another class in a science ship however, well, we don't have sub nuc beam. We have several abilities that mess with energy levels, some shield healing skills, and a few snare and hold abilities that are not doing their job properly. I wouldn't mind a more science oriented ship if the actual BOF science skills actually worked more in line with the way they are supposed to for everyone rather than having to rely on the exclusive science captain only skills people talk about right now.
If you've killed everything else, you eventually need to kill the Cruiser.
Oh ok, so you looking at it from your own perspective of wanting it to be killer in PVE and having absolutely no concerns as to its potential disasterous effect on PVP is looking at the overall perspective, is it?
So your opinion is the only one that counts? Ok, my bad.
Ever played as a Bird of Prey Captain? Clearly if you have, you haven't done it very successfuly. Battlecloak is one of the most important tactics for being successful at flying a Bird of Prey. Overvalued? Undervalued more like.
Inexperienced Klingons complain about cloak being worthless, precisely as you are saying here, not cloak detection. An experienced Klingon PVPer knows how to manipulate and use Cloak - especialy Battlecloak - to the point where it can be used to counter the growing gap in power between the sides.
Experienced Klingons like myself know how to counter cloak detection currently, an experienced klingon does it without even thinking about it, but the Nebula has the potential of being un-counterable. Whether or not a cooldown will effect how useful it is remains to be seen - the point is, it is a very real potential game breaker.
So maybe the Nebula isn't that great in PVE, but it wouldn't be the first ship thats potentialy better in PVP than PVE or vice versa. You can't have it both ways always.
In PvP you never need to kill all enemy ships. You can kill the easy ones over and over instead.
You misunderstand. If we've slaughtered the rest of the group and we still have a Cruiser sitting there, we're not going to go searching for a new target, we are going to take the Cruiser out. There is no reason any one ship should ever be indestructible in PvP.
And that is a tactical error. Leave the cruiser be and go attack another ship. If you choose to pursue a loosing tactic then expect to loose.
Cruisers aren't indestructable...they are destroyed all the time. However, they do take more effort to destroy than an escort and it is foolish not to acknowledge this and adjust your tactics accordingly.
Are you saying that experienced klingons wont be able to adapt and overcome that obstacle ? well, then they arent experienced enough.
I battlecloak in battle probably more times than you do, when i pvp with my BoP. I understand the strenghts of the cloak, but i do not overestimate them. And because i understand cloak, i known how to avoid detection when cloaked, or how to deal with cloaked ships on opposite side.
Tachyon grid is a grid, just avoid the grid. The area of effect is pretty predictable and im sure the graphics will be pretty amazing, so everyone will know when its up.
Also, for some spectacular reason, you expect that in every match there will be at least one nebula to ruin the fun for the klingons. Which also says something.
Nvm... we disagree and you clearly have not desire to be reasonable...
You do not argue if Engeneer or Science class is better, do we?
If (thats not for sure) the Science-Nebula gets a Lt Cmd Engeneer BO slot ... you can get Reverse Shield polatrity II or Struct to Aux II ... well it ist not as good as the III-Version but i get other Science BO skills which are not bad. You think Engeneer BO-Skills are superior? Well i do not. i like all three classes. every one needs another strategy.
I think the Engi cmdr abilities are better yes. I also believe the options available universally to ALL classes are more open than Science abilities.
I am not judging a ship based on the exclusive trainable options for being a specific type of captain, I am judging it based on being any class and picking that ship up to play with it.
Charged Particle burst 3 and Gravity Well 3 are both only trainable by science captains...likewise Sub Nuc Beam, the ability science ship captains swear by, is only available as a science captain. Where is this variety for other classes to choose from within the science ship class? There isn't much. hat's why other classes ussually will pick anything other than a science ship and its why the cmdr science BOF position is gated against anyone that did not roll a science captain.
In comparison, the most useful cmdr engineer abilities come from skills an engi cannot train and do not come from our captain skills. Aux to Structural 3, Reverse shield polarity 3, are both obtainable by anyone and open up the engineer BOF to MANY different variations because of it that anyone can enjoy.
That is the difference. You talk about strategy, but part of strategy is having choice. Unless you are a science captain, a science ship doesn't give many choices in abilities, especially at the Cmdr rank, the slot that opens up all the options for the other slots for variety.
Indeed. We do disagree. However, I have used only reason in my posts. Just because I do not share your sentiments does not mean I didn't apply reason. That is a narcissistic claim.
The above is a narcissistic claim. You've made it clear that only your opinion can be correct, what is the point in discussion?
I think I disagree with this sentiment. PVP is about teamwork. But this ship most likely is a gimmick and a handicap when it comes to teamwork. The gimmick is being billed as the most important thing it brings to PVP ... the cloak detection net.
As I stated in an earlier post, Fed vs. Fed PVP shows us all that PVP can exist and be healthy with nary a cloak being important to the experience. It won't be much of a shift for players to eschew the use of cloak in PVP (other than battle cloak, which even with this grid still serves a useful function, as I believe Fark hasn't quite seen battle cloak in all its glory properly utilized).
Anyways ... that's the gimmick it provides.
The handicap it provides is ...
As a DSSV ... it's simply not tough enough, or kitted enough to be the primary choice for ... helping your team.
It doesn't seem like it's better than a retro-intrepid at utilizing science powers/tactics.
It definitely won't be the top support ship ... that honor/role still goes to star cruisers. It was, at one time, planned to BE a Star Cruiser, and if that had happened it would have been exactly what Fark was billing it as ... an amazing support ship in PVP. As it is now, it's relegated to the same role DSSVs get stuck doing in PVP ... inferior support, with some fragile defenses.
If it had been made more like an RSV or a Retro-Intrepid, it could pull off the science aspect better. If it had been made like a star cruiser it could have pulled off the healer/support role better.
Instead it's a middling science ship with a mediocre layout and a gimmick.
If teamwork is what PVP is all about, then you better serve your team by taking a ship that maximizes your role more efficiently.
Save your money. Fly a star cruiser. And save your team's posterior far more effectively.
I sugest the following:
The Nebula will be classed as a "light cruiser" (same as the Miranda).
It will have the following stats:
Hull: as science ship
Shields: as cruiser
turn rate, and speed: as science ship
Weapons:
3 for, 3 aft
able to mount dual cannons in forward slots.
Bridge officer stations (4 stations 11 powers, no commander level powers):
1 leutenant Commander Tac
1 leutanant Commander Eng
1 leutenant commander Sci
1 leutenant Universal
Consoles:
(two options here depending on if the game engine can handle the first option)
Option 1:
2 tac, 2 eng, 2 sci, 2 universal
Option two (if universal consoles can't be made to work)
3 tac, 3 eng, 3 sci
Device slots: 4
Power settings: +3 to all (total +12)
Special power:
tachion detection grid:
grants the science ship's natural stealth detection to self and allies within a radius similar to that of dampening field (should not cascade) for a reasonable duration.
As you can see it's a multi-role design, capable of some potentially very powerfull combinations. However it pays for this versatility by losing access to commander level powers. Furthemore it's base stats (hull, shields, and turn rate) are middle of the road, no major weaknesses but to real strengths either. It has fewer console slots that other end game ships, but it gains the ability to specialise in any fields with it's consoles. It can detect cloaked ships like a science ship, but it doesn't have a magic "I see you button". It can mount cannons but not as many as an escort.
There are various camps who seem to be viewing conflicting views on what qualifies as gameplay satisfaction with regards to the space battle element and function of the three career ship roles.
I suspect if Cryptic had focused on the purity of the role of each career rather than diluting the percieved results from career A vs career B in light of PvP and PvE space battle environments we would be celebrating a classic canon model's introduction rather than debating and lamenting the failure on the part of the design, adjustment and net result of losing that focus.
I can see only more frustration being voiced in this respect as each new ship is introduced.
At some point, something is going to break if it already hasn't happened already.
Maybe its time to ask Cryptic to rethink how they truly make each Career seperate and unique from each other yet equally advantageous and attractive. Much in the same light as the situation faced with the development of the Klingon faction.
Truly challenging indeed.
Let's consider, however -- it wasn't dispatched to hunt down Maquis in the Demiliterized Zone -- it was dispatched to hunt down Maquis in the Badlands. Which is to say, the Federation was sending one of their newest ships, with the most sophisticated computer system and the most sophisticated sensor array ever mounted on a starship, to try and piece its way through the plasma discharges and general subspace chaos of the Badlands to find Maquis.
That screams science vessel. Which is no doubt why a science specialist was chosen to command it.
You're right -- they had few labs and no dedicated astrometrics lab and few scientists. They also had a disgraced officer who'd been kept in a rehab colony on Earth flown out there. They were rigged for a specific mission, with its standard systems pulled and more combat oriented systems (and crew) added. If Voyager had been sent out on a standard long range survey, they'd have been packed to the gills with scientists. As it was, they wanted a crew ready to handle fast paced combat.
Remember, just because a ship has "Science" in her specifications doesn't mean she can't be kitted out for nonscientific missions.
Now, we just need a T1 or T2 Oberth....
* - Since they've done saucer separation on the Galaxy-R, who-all here would want to see multivector attack mode on a Prometheus for the 'special' Escort? Granted, I'm not fond of MVAM, but it would make sense to release this at some point.
Actually i suspect it's more along the lines of the nebula having such an ill-defined role in canon that everyone wants it to be perfect for their own purposes. Also Star trek fans kind of wrote the book on obsessive nerd behavior. I don't think it's possible to satisfy more than a plurality of us at any one time.
Hence my comment:
Truly challenging indeed. ^^
The Enterprise from both TOS and TNG was quite capable of preforming pretty much any sort of scientific mission, and was also a front line battleship able to hold it's own against the best out there.
It's like trying to argue that a Jedi Knight is more like a D&D Paladin then Ranger...
However a lot of this thread sounds like people are simply upset because they're not getting a new toy. The OP is a prime example of this, he's PO'ed because this ship won't be a cruiser and that's what he wants. The people playing Sci can just deal with what they got, because he wants a new toy.
Canon isn't a good way to decide it so balance and who has the most ships is about the only way to really decide, which means that since the last 2 new ships to come out were cruisers, that there needs to be some love for sci and escort players too.
The Nebula Class in canon was not billed as any specific type of ship. The Nebula was designed to fit a multi-mission profile. Often times the Nebula was used for extensive and specific scientific research projects. The Starfleet Corps of Engineers also used the ship as the backbone of their fleet because it was a universal design that could be loaded out to fit their needs. It also can serve as a tactical ship because of the armaments.
In STO, this ship should be 100% customizable. It should have all BO slots be neutral slots so that any player in the game can make use of it. That would portray the Nebula in game more accurate to it's canonical role.
QFT. Completely agree!
Furthermore, my issue is with the hull classification.
Could we not have the DSSV bridge officer combination (i.e. Commander Science) but still have it classified as a cruiser?
Yep thats why there is no real definitive list of all of Star Fleet's ships and types as the producers needed to keep the list vague to allow future stories to include both new and old as a storytelling tool. Hence why Cryptic is possibly painting itself into a corner and causing these sorts of balance, us/them frustrations.
It would have been better off (I suspect in the long run) just having a universal ship skills set, with universal properties for each ship class. Where the true differences were noticed, like the stories so often told in Star Trek, were what the crew in the form of the Captain and their BOffs could bring to the ship. This could come in a variety of formats and all provide a better more fairer experience to all concerned, avoiding possible ip/canon/balance angst to boot.
You could then provide a more tailored flavour to your ship of choice based on the career and level of the captain, their choice in skills and composition of your Boffs that did not necessarily translate to high dpsing nor a cookie cutter mentality or flavour of the month ship etc
Tricky stuff.