lol, but if we are at war, the last thing we would need is a science vessel... and to the other guy who posted that it is most conologically a sci vessel, i beg to differ, as i stated b4 in this thread, it was only seen once on screen as a sci varient (the pheonix, once on screen as the engineer, and it was most always seen as the torpedo varient, so if you want to argue canon, it should be an escort.... lol.... but i know that it is a cruiser, and thus should be such, so i wouldnt argue the point of escort.... open your eyes, do your homework, then bring your game lol....
The idea of the Nebula being a science ship was not by me. The Nebula was a science ship in a game called Star Trek Armada which I posted earlier.
The need of a science ship, is to serve as a support vessel of the entire fleet. They were used in the Tachyon detection Grid in TNG, where Sela was trying to run a blockade of Romulan ships while they were cloaked during the KLingon Civil War.
Not intended as a frontline "battleship" but as a back of the line support vessel "since it is not supposed to tank" like the real cruisers.
STO has proposed making it a science ship with a cruiser hull for strength during hard times.
I would say fighting the Klingons is a hard time....No?
The idea of the Nebula being a science ship was not by me. The Nebula was a science ship in a game called Star Trek Armada which I posted earlier.
The need of a science ship, is to serve as a support vessel of the entire fleet. They were used in the Tachyon detection Grid in TNG, where Sela was trying to run a blockade of Romulan ships while they were cloaked during the KLingon Civil War.
Not intended as a frontline "battleship" but as a back of the line support vessel "since it is not supposed to tank" like the real cruisers.
STO has proposed making it a science ship with a cruiser hull for strength during hard times.
I would say fighting the Klingons is a hard time....No?
Actually in that TNG episode, the grid was started by Enterprise, and it didnt matter what kind of ships were in the grid...but oh well..
Well yes it is usually used as a science ship, but there is a fighting version with a weapons pod, rather than a science pod.
I honestly hope it comes in a a replacement for Star Cruisers since they haven't had any love in the recent spate of refits. I know the science vessels haven't had much either, but the Nebula is hardly a scout class vessel or a light cruiser, its a heavy cruiser which kinda narrows it down to what it should be at least in my eyes.
Why not just have the Nebula as a Star Cruiser, but with Commander Science boff positions, and the appropriate number of science consoles.
A heavily science based cruiser would be more in keeping with the design of the Nebula than a pure Science ship.
Because people are hurt that cruisers are too numerous. It doesnt matter if you made it exactly like a science ship in BO slots, weapon slots, hull numbers etc, slap the name cruiser on it and people will scream and yell.
EDIT: Sorry, this is quite a belligerent post. Its late and this issue is frustrating. My point still stands, at least in the case of a very small minority of people.
Because people are hurt that cruisers are too numerous. It doesnt matter if you made it exactly like a science ship in BO slots, weapon slots, hull numbers etc, slap the name cruiser on it and people will scream and yell.
EDIT: Sorry, this is quite a belligerent post. Its late and this issue is frustrating. My point still stands, at least in the case of a very small minority of people.
Astute observation.
Personally, I was hoping for the Nebula to be to Science Captains, what the Excelsior is to Tactic Captains. That's slightly less crew, slightly more turn rate and Lt. Commander consoles to the class of choice, in addition to the cruiser's engineering emphasis. (That and maybe a Tactics-Nebula alternative with built in High-Yield with respect to the torpedo platform module.)
Per canon, this ship could be either a cruiser or a science ship, in fact to be most accurate to canon there should be two ships, a cruiser version and a sci version.
That's not going to happen however, because that apparently violates one of Cryptics concepts, namely that you should be able to know what class a ship is by how it looks. I suppose it could be done with a different pod for cruiser then sci...
But that doesn't seem to be what Cryptic wants to do, they want it be one class.
Canon can not be used to show that the ship should be a cruiser or science, only that it can be either one. Since canon doesn't say one way or the other, it's completely up to cryptic to decide what they want to make it.
From what I've seen in this thread they agreed with a portion of the player base that there needs to be more sci ships, so they're making it that. Wither it will be a good one or not... I don't know.
It doesnt matter if you made it exactly like a science ship in BO slots, weapon slots, hull numbers etc, slap the name cruiser on it and people will scream and yell.
To be fair you could do the same thing in reverse, make it like a Cruiser in BO slots, weapons slots, ect... Call it a Science ship and you'd have people scream and yell.
Per canon, this ship could be either a cruiser or a science ship, in fact to be most accurate to canon there should be two ships, a cruiser version and a sci version.
That's not going to happen however, because that apparently violates one of Cryptics concepts, namely that you should be able to know what class a ship is by how it looks. I suppose it could be done with a different pod for cruiser then sci...
But that doesn't seem to be what Cryptic wants to do, they want it be one class.
Canon can not be used to show that the ship should be a cruiser or science, only that it can be either one. Since canon doesn't say one way or the other, it's completely up to cryptic to decide what they want to make it.
From what I've seen in this thread they agreed with a portion of the player base that there needs to be more sci ships, so they're making it that. Wither it will be a good one or not... I don't know.
Yes indeed, we and they are pretty much stuck with this system and for good or ill its the quality of this experience that we face when we play, unless ofc a total or in-part renovation occurs in a future season update.
With that in mind, its no surprise that every ship that is introduced will be met with a considerable degree of disapproval no matter which way it's categorised and tooled up, both before and after it's gone live.
If a considerable pool of folks warned Cryptic about this in Beta then it comes as no surprise that a constantly brewing storm has hovered amidst the community on this subject fueled by dissatisfied customers, very passionate fans and MySTO players.
Canon...it's their call not ours but your paying for the next round if you so choose.
The idea of the Nebula being a science ship was not by me. The Nebula was a science ship in a game called Star Trek Armada which I posted earlier.
The need of a science ship, is to serve as a support vessel of the entire fleet. They were used in the Tachyon detection Grid in TNG, where Sela was trying to run a blockade of Romulan ships while they were cloaked during the KLingon Civil War.
Not intended as a frontline "battleship" but as a back of the line support vessel "since it is not supposed to tank" like the real cruisers.
STO has proposed making it a science ship with a cruiser hull for strength during hard times.
I would say fighting the Klingons is a hard time....No?
ok, it is a frontline ship, it was a frontline ship in the cardassian war. what people seam to forget is that it is almost the exact same ship (not just talking about looks, if you look up its specs and its history youll see) as the galaxy, the only reason they started running them was to make a "cheaper" version of the galaxy, and to get rid of the tactically "weak" neck. other than that it shares all the same equipment (minus the pods) and weaponry as a galaxy... they were prodused as a frontline ship in the cardassian war, and were a frontline ship in the dominion war, and any conflict with the borg.... and yes, the tachyon detection grid was started by enterprise, so if you say that ships that used the tachyon detection grid should be science ships, well then, im sorry, but heres the list... galaxy class, ambassader class, appollo class, excelsior class, nebula class, and i cant remember the other ones off the top of my head, but those are just what i remember... i think you guys should get them, if cryptic would make a move like that, they would end my missery and i could cancel my monthly subscript without the pain of wanting to play lol...
you guys are only seeing and hearing what you want too you hang on to anything that you think will get you a new ship, cause for some reason sci guys seem to think cryptics plan was never to make another sci vessel again, even though we are only in the what 8th or 9th month of the game being out lol... so what, everytime a new ship comes out the sci community is going to argue why it should be a sci ship...... you dont hear tac officers complaining about our ships, (even though our number is up cause everyone has some sort of answer for us lol..) i mean i would love to see the nebula as an escort, but lets face it, its a cruiser, and im not going to argue for it, just as science players shouldnt, its a silly argument that has absolutely zero merit to it... like i posted before, the defiant has a sensor grid, as does the prometheus, maybe we should swich those to science vessels, oh and if i remember correctly, one of the first fed ships to have a cloaking device of anykind was an oberth class, so that is irrifutable proof that sci guys should **** and moan about getting the defiant as a sci ship, i mean, its only canon right...... lol...
It's pretty sad that people would cancel their subscription, because of something like this.
In my opinion it seems quite apparent, that the Nebula is better suited to be a Cruiser, than anything else. I'm a Science guy, and I don't really have a problem with this.
I think maybe a better way to go about this, is to create three versions:
Phoenix Varient - Sensor Pod (Science).
Melbourne Varient - Extra Warp Engines (Engineering).
Nebula - Torpedo Pod (Tactical).
Maybe these could be costumes for The Nebula, and keep the proposed Universal Bridge Officer slot.
Or maybe just keep it like the Excelsior, and have a Lt.Comm Science Slot, instead of the Universal Slot proposed earlier. So it would be a replacement for the Star Cruiser, much like The Excelsior was for The Sovereign.
It also wouldn't do any harm as a Science Ship either, although it might not be Canon, I don't believe anyone said the Luna was a Science Vessel, or even The Intrepid for that matter.
It's pretty sad that people would cancel their subscription, because of something like this.
In my opinion it seems quite apparent, that the Nebula is better suited to be a Cruiser, than anything else. I'm a Science guy, and I don't really have a problem with this.
I think maybe a better way to go about this, is to create three versions:
Phoenix Varient - Sensor Pod (Science).
Melbourne Varient - Extra Warp Engines (Engineering).
Nebula - Torpedo Pod (Tactical).
Maybe these could be costumes for The Nebula, and keep the proposed Universal Bridge Officer slot.
Or maybe just keep it like the Excelsior, and have a Lt.Comm Science Slot, instead of the Universal Slot proposed earlier. So it would be a replacement for the Star Cruiser, much like The Excelsior was for The Sovereign.
It also wouldn't do any harm as a Science Ship either, although it might not be Canon, I don't believe anyone said the Luna was a Science Vessel, or even The Intrepid for that matter.
i didnt say id cancel for this one ship, i was joking that if they changed all the ships that appeared in the episode with the tachyon detection grid to sci that i would, not that that would happen, but i was merely making a point lol.... im not saying that it would be terrible as a sci ship, i am merely stating that canon wise, it should be a more rounded "cruiser" that way it could better portray that either sci, eng, or tac can use it, as is, it only has 6 weapon "hardpoints" and no respectable tac or engineer officer would give up those two points.... not only that, but the power allocations and consoles are way to off to be useable by a tac officer... as a cruiser, it can be.... that is all that i am saying...
lol, the first fed ship to have a universal boff slot is also the most useless ship to 80 + percent of the fed population lol.... i mean sci's are the least popular of the two and they are only making a small percentage of the feds happy with this one... id be interested to see how the sales look for it when it releases..
ok, it is a frontline ship, it was a frontline ship in the cardassian war. what people seam to forget is that it is almost the exact same ship (not just talking about looks, if you look up its specs and its history youll see) as the galaxy, the only reason they started running them was to make a "cheaper" version of the galaxy, and to get rid of the tactically "weak" neck. other than that it shares all the same equipment (minus the pods) and weaponry as a galaxy... they were prodused as a frontline ship in the cardassian war, and were a frontline ship in the dominion war, and any conflict with the borg.... and yes, the tachyon detection grid was started by enterprise, so if you say that ships that used the tachyon detection grid should be science ships, well then, im sorry, but heres the list... galaxy class, ambassader class, appollo class, excelsior class, nebula class, and i cant remember the other ones off the top of my head, but those are just what i remember... i think you guys should get them, if cryptic would make a move like that, they would end my missery and i could cancel my monthly subscript without the pain of wanting to play lol...
you guys are only seeing and hearing what you want too you hang on to anything that you think will get you a new ship, cause for some reason sci guys seem to think cryptics plan was never to make another sci vessel again, even though we are only in the what 8th or 9th month of the game being out lol... so what, everytime a new ship comes out the sci community is going to argue why it should be a sci ship...... you dont hear tac officers complaining about our ships, (even though our number is up cause everyone has some sort of answer for us lol..) i mean i would love to see the nebula as an escort, but lets face it, its a cruiser, and im not going to argue for it, just as science players shouldnt, its a silly argument that has absolutely zero merit to it... like i posted before, the defiant has a sensor grid, as does the prometheus, maybe we should swich those to science vessels, oh and if i remember correctly, one of the first fed ships to have a cloaking device of anykind was an oberth class, so that is irrifutable proof that sci guys should **** and moan about getting the defiant as a sci ship, i mean, its only canon right...... lol...
Yes, they should. Just so you know, my first avatar is a science officer VA Tribbler. The other is a VA Tact, and I am working on the VA Eng. Each with the ship of their expertise.
I do remember that Tacts got the awesome Defiant, and the Eng. got the power got the Excelsior & Seperated Saucer Galaxy. And Science got the Voyager. It is time for the Science class to get theirs, so really its either time for another Science ship or Tact ship. Apparently Cryptic is thinking science next.
That looks like the progression their taking and yes the Promethius would have been nice, Maybe season 4.
Yes, they should. Just so you know, my first avatar is a science officer VA Tribbler. The other is a VA Tact, and I am working on the VA Eng. Each with the ship of their expertise.
I do remember that Tacts got the awesome Defiant, and the Eng. got the power got the Excelsior & Seperated Saucer Galaxy. And Science got the Voyager. It is time for the Science class to get theirs, so really its either time for another Science ship or Tact ship. Apparently Cryptic is thinking science next.
That looks like the progression their taking and yes the Promethius would have been nice, Maybe season 4.
engineers got the power??? i dont understand lol.....
engineers and tacs got the excelsior, it was more tac, the nebula was supposed to be just like the excelsior, a science based (but not overly sci, so its more practical for everyone to use.) cruiser. and quite frankly, if they release it the way they are posting what its stats are, its gonna be a pretty useless ship... i bet all the sci guys get it, use it for a few weeks, and go back to the other sci ships, then i will post a thread called "what a waste" and we will have to hear every sci guy complain about how cryptic first nerfed them, and now they slap them in the face with this ship... sure a few guys will like it, but like a poster said earlier (and i believe he said he was a sci guy) the config for sci is horrable, and its a tin can or something.... i see that the sci guys would rather mess a ship up and have it all to themselves, than have it be usefull to someone...
i agree that sci needs a ship, just as tac does, but the nebula is not that ship... it does not fit the mold for either, and would have been a happy median in the cruiser catagory.
and as far as the refit ships go, the only one i see regularly is the intrepid class (voyager)... most tacs have gone to either the fleet escort, the advanced escort, or the excelsior.... almost no engineers fly the refit galaxy cause it was as useless as a bull with t***, lol.... and if i do see someone flying it, i let them know about their mistake pretty quickly.... the only one that had staying power was the intrepid, and i still get slapped around by them in my defiant.... so as much as sci guys like to complain there is no love, i think they got the best refit out of us all...
and as far as cryptic thinking it had to go to the sci guys, they originally posted that they had thought about it being a sci ship, but felt that it was better suited as a cruiser, and said that it was a cruiser, then pulled the classic cryptic reneg cause a few sci guys complained lol.... "mommy, can u please buy me this toy"... "im sorry, well get it next time"..... (kid throws a fit in the middle of the store, mother ends up buying the toy...) this is the sad fact of what happened.
and as far as cryptic thinking it had to go to the sci guys, they originally posted that they had thought about it being a sci ship, but felt that it was better suited as a cruiser, and said that it was a cruiser, then pulled the classic cryptic reneg cause a few sci guys complained lol.... "mommy, can u please buy me this toy"... "im sorry, well get it next time"..... (kid throws a fit in the middle of the store, mother ends up buying the toy...) this is the sad fact of what happened.
So, you now want Cryptic to "renege" again and make it a cruiser? Just so mommy will buy you this toy to stop you throwing your fit?
and as far as cryptic thinking it had to go to the sci guys, they originally posted that they had thought about it being a sci ship, but felt that it was better suited as a cruiser, and said that it was a cruiser, then pulled the classic cryptic reneg cause a few sci guys complained lol.... "mommy, can u please buy me this toy"... "im sorry, well get it next time"..... (kid throws a fit in the middle of the store, mother ends up buying the toy...) this is the sad fact of what happened.
Actually, I think there was some well reasoned debate on both sides of the argument as to why it should be X class, just as there was some well reasoned debate about having the ship in all 3 roles. Sure, there was some childishness from certain elements, once again from both sides of the cruiser/science debate, but overall it was debated maturely.
engineers got the power??? i dont understand lol.....
engineers and tacs got the excelsior, it was more tac, the nebula was supposed to be just like the excelsior, a science based (but not overly sci, so its more practical for everyone to use.) cruiser. and quite frankly, if they release it the way they are posting what its stats are, its gonna be a pretty useless ship... i bet all the sci guys get it, use it for a few weeks, and go back to the other sci ships, then i will post a thread called "what a waste" and we will have to hear every sci guy complain about how cryptic first nerfed them, and now they slap them in the face with this ship... sure a few guys will like it, but like a poster said earlier (and i believe he said he was a sci guy) the config for sci is horrable, and its a tin can or something.... i see that the sci guys would rather mess a ship up and have it all to themselves, than have it be usefull to someone...
i agree that sci needs a ship, just as tac does, but the nebula is not that ship... it does not fit the mold for either, and would have been a happy median in the cruiser catagory.
and as far as the refit ships go, the only one i see regularly is the intrepid class (voyager)... most tacs have gone to either the fleet escort, the advanced escort, or the excelsior.... almost no engineers fly the refit galaxy cause it was as useless as a bull with t***, lol.... and if i do see someone flying it, i let them know about their mistake pretty quickly.... the only one that had staying power was the intrepid, and i still get slapped around by them in my defiant.... so as much as sci guys like to complain there is no love, i think they got the best refit out of us all...
and as far as cryptic thinking it had to go to the sci guys, they originally posted that they had thought about it being a sci ship, but felt that it was better suited as a cruiser, and said that it was a cruiser, then pulled the classic cryptic reneg cause a few sci guys complained lol.... "mommy, can u please buy me this toy"... "im sorry, well get it next time"..... (kid throws a fit in the middle of the store, mother ends up buying the toy...) this is the sad fact of what happened.
Man, your perception of what happened it way off base. Pretty much the only reason I see that you are making a big deal out of this is that the Nebula is your favorite ship and you wanted it to be a cruiser.
Tough, they are making it a sci ship as it should be.
Also if you think the Intrepid is the best refit that is your choice but as a sci I out damage and last longer in my cruiser then Intrepids so you can believe what you want. The overall point it that the nebula isn't even tested yet so you don't know what it will perform or not perform like.
So, you now want Cryptic to "renege" again and make it a cruiser? Just so mommy will buy you this toy to stop you throwing your fit?
i dont care what they do at this point, i am simply stating my dismay at the constant reneging, and other bs that happens. i baught this game because when i read and watched and listened to how this game was supposed to be the closest to a trek feel, or canon feel, it intruiged me, but as of late, even the simplest things they are taking liberties with. most everything is cut and dry with how to build, or impliment it, as they have a slew of background story to base it on... if you asked most true star trek fans what the nebula classification should be (not in context to the game) they would almost all say its a heavy cruiser... i try to immerse myself in this game, but the constant shinanigans make it hard to.. this was just the straw that broke the camels back for me.... should they make it a cruiser yes, would it be reneging, no, since that was the original plan for it, and since it fits the story, and canonality better its more of a correction, not reneging, will they, probably not, should they , yes.. do i care either way, no, i for one wouldnt be suprised if in a few days to a week they come out and say that they are changing it to an escort, and then boom, when the day finally comes that it releases, they have three varients of it... am i hoping for this, no, but it is weird that they would come out and flat out say that its gonna be a cruiser, then reneg on it....
i wouldnt be suprised if they release the gd nx as an escort and slap us tac officers in the face lol.....
but no my ranting is not to change things parsay, if it does great, but its more to bring lite to the fact that this game is removing itself from the canon feel almost on a day to day basis. i find myself losing interest and i dont know how much longer i can hold out.....
and ps dude, argue whatever you want, but dont be an a** about it, these are meant to be friendly debates, where we can vent and have a laugh at the same time....
i dont care what they do at this point, i am simply stating my dismay at the constant reneging, and other bs that happens. i baught this game because when i read and watched and listened to how this game was supposed to be the closest to a trek feel, or canon feel, it intruiged me, but as of late, even the simplest things they are taking liberties with. most everything is cut and dry with how to build, or impliment it, as they have a slew of background story to base it on... if you asked most true star trek fans what the nebula classification should be (not in context to the game) they would almost all say its a heavy cruiser... i try to immerse myself in this game, but the constant shinanigans make it hard to.. this was just the straw that broke the camels back for me.... should they make it a cruiser yes, would it be reneging, no, since that was the original plan for it, and since it fits the story, and canonality better its more of a correction, not reneging, will they, probably not, should they , yes.. do i care either way, no, i for one wouldnt be suprised if in a few days to a week they come out and say that they are changing it to an escort, and then boom, when the day finally comes that it releases, they have three varients of it... am i hoping for this, no, but it is weird that they would come out and flat out say that its gonna be a cruiser, then reneg on it....
i wouldnt be suprised if they release the gd nx as an escort and slap us tac officers in the face lol.....
but no my ranting is not to change things parsay, if it does great, but its more to bring lite to the fact that this game is removing itself from the canon feel almost on a day to day basis. i find myself losing interest and i dont know how much longer i can hold out.....
and ps dude, argue whatever you want, but dont be an a** about it, these are meant to be friendly debates, where we can vent and have a laugh at the same time....
There problem is there is your canon and others canon and somewhere in between lies the truth. There were canon reasons for it being a sci ship and canon reasons for it being a cruiser but the truth is all of those ships are multi role. I would imagine by the 24th century and beyond the "cruiser" nomenclature is just a hold over from the nautical days due to tradition and not to function.
Also nobody rengeged on anything, when the draft was posted it did say subject to change which means they didn't renege on anything.
i dont care what they do at this point, i am simply stating my dismay at the constant reneging, and other bs that happens. i baught this game because when i read and watched and listened to how this game was supposed to be the closest to a trek feel, or canon feel, it intruiged me, but as of late, even the simplest things they are taking liberties with. most everything is cut and dry with how to build, or impliment it, as they have a slew of background story to base it on... if you asked most true star trek fans what the nebula classification should be (not in context to the game) they would almost all say its a heavy cruiser... i try to immerse myself in this game, but the constant shinanigans make it hard to.. this was just the straw that broke the camels back for me.... should they make it a cruiser yes, would it be reneging, no, since that was the original plan for it, and since it fits the story, and canonality better its more of a correction, not reneging, will they, probably not, should they , yes.. do i care either way, no, i for one wouldnt be suprised if in a few days to a week they come out and say that they are changing it to an escort, and then boom, when the day finally comes that it releases, they have three varients of it... am i hoping for this, no, but it is weird that they would come out and flat out say that its gonna be a cruiser, then reneg on it....
i wouldnt be suprised if they release the gd nx as an escort and slap us tac officers in the face lol.....
but no my ranting is not to change things parsay, if it does great, but its more to bring lite to the fact that this game is removing itself from the canon feel almost on a day to day basis. i find myself losing interest and i dont know how much longer i can hold out.....
and ps dude, argue whatever you want, but dont be an a** about it, these are meant to be friendly debates, where we can vent and have a laugh at the same time....
You were the one who's been posting about the science players whining like a kid who wants a toy that mommy wouldn't buy them. That's not part of a friendly debate; that's generalization and insulting. It's not my fault you don't like your words (that you used to describe others) when they are used to describe you.
Man, your perception of what happened it way off base. Pretty much the only reason I see that you are making a big deal out of this is that the Nebula is your favorite ship and you wanted it to be a cruiser.
Tough, they are making it a sci ship as it should be.
Also if you think the Intrepid is the best refit that is your choice but as a sci I out damage and last longer in my cruiser then Intrepids so you can believe what you want. The overall point it that the nebula isn't even tested yet so you don't know what it will perform or not perform like.
actually the defiant is my fav. ship, i flew it as a t4 even b4 the released the refit, and lets just say i made it work.... that being said, the nebula is my second fav. ship, and yes i am disapointed that i will not be able to use it in a practical sense, but as i stated above, this game is losing its canonality on a daily basis. and further more i dont care that its a game and canon doesnt matter to everyone, but when they come out and say in the begining that they are going to be the most canon game ever, and that they are going to make it the best imersion into trek, then i expect that to fallow through no matter what anyone says... like i said, i dont care what happens anymore, and i am starting to get sick of arguing it cause half the people posting in here cant see past there own nose.... instead of someone saying, hey, he makes a good argument as to why it should be a cruiser, you guys keep "making up" reasons as to why it should be a sci, and most of you only state, "ummm its going to be a sci, or it should be a sci" but cant bring any real argument as to why.... i love star trek, and as a kid, b4 the defiant, the neb was my fav. and i have done alot of research on it for role playing and stuff like that. i feel like i could practically build one in my backyard lol..... and let me tell you, making it a sci ship does it no justice whatsoever, and is the farthest thing from what the original designer, and paramount decided it to be.... this is my gripe with the choice, and i started this thread to bring to light why it shouldnt be a sci vessel. there is no valid point as to why it should be, so i wouldnt even try. lol....
i still whole hardedly feel that they screwed up how they classify ships, as i have stated in the past, ships should have been made for the ship in hand, not for a particular class (ie, sci, tac, eng.) and what kind of buffs and boff slots it got should have depended on what your profession was... i think the nebula at least should have been a class in its own as far as the current game, and should have stayed with just the universal boff slot. all cryptic had to do was make it a unique ship, and no one would argue...
further more, your attitude is not welcome in my thread, if you would like to continue to discuss this, than do so with out being a donkey... u dont have to personally attack me or anyone else making points, or who are partaking int he discussion, if it looks like i did, i can tell you that was not my intention. but keep it clean, and keep it sane lol....
here are a few canon facts to help guide anyone who might try to "come up" with reason it should be a science ship...
1. she was built and originally equiped witht he torpedo pod (specifically for the early cardassian wars and conflicts)
2. she was indeed a frontline ship, she was in every major conflict ranging from the early cardassian wars, to the dominion war (including just about every borg encounter, almost every major dominion battle, and every major cardassian battle)
3. she was originally built for patrol, and most of the ships built did this, only a handfull were equiped with other pods (such as the xtra necelles or the sensor pod) (the galaxys did most of the exploring)
4. she was designed and built to replace the galaxy (ie, the galaxy had a problem with a "weak neck" and was too expensive [resource wise] and so the nebula was a cheaper, stronger, more tactically inclined version) (there were only something like 32 or 36 galaxys produced, one of the shortest runs in a major ships career)
5. the nebula has been seen on screen somewhere between 22 and 28 times (the exact number eludes me right now), of the lets say 26 times, she was seen once with a sensor pod, once with the xtra necelles, and the rest of the time she adorned the torpedo pod.
6. the nebula and the galaxy share all the same systems, and weapons, they are almost identical (though they scaled the nebula down a little, the nebula actually isnt as long (since its stardrive sits directly below the saucer, and its saucer was a little smaller. all in all this was said to increase menuverablility to give it a better tactical advantage that the galaxy lacked..
7. in canon, the nebula and the galaxy actually share the same explorer cruiser class, and in memory alpha if you actually read the offensive and defensive sections, it states that the ship has a huge armament (hardly worthy of 6 hard points) and was a great adversary in battle.. (i know in memory alpha it says, its abilites include science, but not even three or four words after it also states patrol and exploration.. ummm, yeah, dont link that anymore lol...
now im not trying to be a jerk or anything by what i have shared above, i am simply giving some facts to help people see where i am coming from...
You were the one who's been posting about the science players whining like a kid who wants a toy that mommy wouldn't buy them. That's not part of a friendly debate; that's generalization and insulting. It's not my fault you don't like your words (that you used to describe others) when they are used to describe you.
dude, im not saying every sci guy is like that, there are some in this thread posting that they would rather see it a cruiser so im not generalizing everyone... sorry it seems that way, i guess ill have to post more three page posts to make sure i get my point across. lol. also, my lol's are put there to soften it so its not meant to be an attack, i mean im not sitting here stewing over my keyboard, swearing, and jamming keys lol... im simply stating what i have seen. i just posted some facts on the nebula, i garuntee that peeps will try to say they arnt, even though b4 i typed anything i double checked with memory alpha, my manuals, and other vaious sources that are considered canon. i mean i could come on here and say that the color black is black, but someone will try to tell me its pink lol....
again sorry if peeps got the idea i was attacking, im not, if i do attack you, youll know it lol.....
im not really mad at the sci's its mroe the devs and stahl. i mean the sci's dont make the decision, they can only help shape the decision. ultimatly the ones w***** disapointing me are the ones pushing the buttons and making the "strange" decisions as of late...
actually the defiant is my fav. ship, i flew it as a t4 even b4 the released the refit, and lets just say i made it work.... that being said, the nebula is my second fav. ship, and yes i am disapointed that i will not be able to use it in a practical sense, but as i stated above, this game is losing its canonality on a daily basis. and further more i dont care that its a game and canon doesnt matter to everyone, but when they come out and say in the begining that they are going to be the most canon game ever, and that they are going to make it the best imersion into trek, then i expect that to fallow through no matter what anyone says... like i said, i dont care what happens anymore, and i am starting to get sick of arguing it cause half the people posting in here cant see past there own nose.... instead of someone saying, hey, he makes a good argument as to why it should be a cruiser, you guys keep "making up" reasons as to why it should be a sci, and most of you only state, "ummm its going to be a sci, or it should be a sci" but cant bring any real argument as to why.... i love star trek, and as a kid, b4 the defiant, the neb was my fav. and i have done alot of research on it for role playing and stuff like that. i feel like i could practically build one in my backyard lol..... and let me tell you, making it a sci ship does it no justice whatsoever, and is the farthest thing from what the original designer, and paramount decided it to be.... this is my gripe with the choice, and i started this thread to bring to light why it shouldnt be a sci vessel. there is no valid point as to why it should be, so i wouldnt even try. lol....
You obviously missed where I said there is canon reasons for both sides. Something else to consider is since the ships have to be approved by CBS (Not paramount) as CBS now has the rights to Star Trek. When it is approved it becomes canon. So you see there is no reason to debate canon as when it is released it is the new canon. Also you seem to want to argue canon but the fact is there is enough contradictions in canon through out Star Trek that making blanket canon claims is pointless.
Something else, we don't have to argue the points of why it should be a sci vessel as it has already been pointed out to you in this thread over and over again. However, you refuse to accept those answers to the monkey is on your back so to speak.
On another note some of us have been die hard Star Trek fans since the TOS so your "research" etc doesn't matter. Not in this debate considering there are actually very few canon sources so you can feel free to climb off your high horse.
i still whole hardedly feel that they screwed up how they classify ships, as i have stated in the past, ships should have been made for the ship in hand, not for a particular class (ie, sci, tac, eng.) and what kind of buffs and boff slots it got should have depended on what your profession was... i think the nebula at least should have been a class in its own as far as the current game, and should have stayed with just the universal boff slot. all cryptic had to do was make it a unique ship, and no one would argue...
No the nebula should not be a "class" of its own. First off technically it is in a class by itself since it is called the Nebula class. However, I don't think you were talking about that situation. Again, it sounds more and more like sour grapes.
further more, your attitude is not welcome in my thread, if you would like to continue to discuss this, than do so with out being a donkey... u dont have to personally attack me or anyone else making points, or who are partaking int he discussion, if it looks like i did, i can tell you that was not my intention. but keep it clean, and keep it sane lol....
Well, I have kept it clean as I have not referred to anyone as a donkey or any other animal. Also I am not making any Ad Hominum attacks either. At the worse I calling your motivation as suspect since you seem to disregard the fact that they did say it was subject to change yet you still say they reneged. Others have given you canon reasons which you ignore and even I pointed out that there is different interpretations of canon and you didn't even refer back to that. So yes, I find your motivations to entirely self centered as you wanted the Nebula as a cruiser because you want it as a cruiser and not because it would be good for the game as a whole. At no time did you say" The nebula as a cruiser would make the game better for all players" So far you keep bringing it back to your own selfish wants. That isn't an attack that is just the way you seem to be coming across.
here are a few canon facts to help guide anyone who might try to "come up" with reason it should be a science ship...
1. she was built and originally equiped witht he torpedo pod (specifically for the early cardassian wars and conflicts)
Considering only what is in the movies and the shows are the real canon and it was never said in the shows that it was specifically for the early Cardassian wars then you are incorrect. It was first shown with a torpedo pod that is true but nothing about the early wars was mentioned in reference to the class.
2. she was indeed a frontline ship, she was in every major conflict ranging from the early cardassian wars, to the dominion war (including just about every borg encounter, almost every major dominion battle, and every major cardassian battle)
Again, since the shows and the movies are the only official canon you can't state this with certainty.
3. she was originally built for patrol, and most of the ships built did this, only a handfull were equiped with other pods (such as the xtra necelles or the sensor pod) (the galaxys did most of the exploring)
4. she was designed and built to replace the galaxy (ie, the galaxy had a problem with a "weak neck" and was too expensive [resource wise] and so the nebula was a cheaper, stronger, more tactically inclined version) (there were only something like 32 or 36 galaxys produced, one of the shortest runs in a major ships career)
5. the nebula has been seen on screen somewhere between 22 and 28 times (the exact number eludes me right now), of the lets say 26 times, she was seen once with a sensor pod, once with the xtra necelles, and the rest of the time she adorned the torpedo pod.
6. the nebula and the galaxy share all the same systems, and weapons, they are almost identical (though they scaled the nebula down a little, the nebula actually isnt as long (since its stardrive sits directly below the saucer, and its saucer was a little smaller. all in all this was said to increase menuverablility to give it a better tactical advantage that the galaxy lacked..
7. in canon, the nebula and the galaxy actually share the same explorer cruiser class, and in memory alpha if you actually read the offensive and defensive sections, it states that the ship has a huge armament (hardly worthy of 6 hard points) and was a great adversary in battle.. (i know in memory alpha it says, its abilites include science, but not even three or four words after it also states patrol and exploration.. ummm, yeah, dont link that anymore lol...
now im not trying to be a jerk or anything by what i have shared above, i am simply giving some facts to help people see where i am coming from...
The problem is those aren't necessarly facts as that information was never mentioned in the shows beyond a few points, mostly visual. So outside of that it is only speculation. You have to remember that only what is in the shows and movies is officially canon. So you can argue canon but if you do you need to use only the official sources. [EDIT... made a few mistakes in the original posting so I correct the formatting but the grammer errors are on their own.]
dude, im not saying every sci guy is like that, there are some in this thread posting that they would rather see it a cruiser so im not generalizing everyone... sorry it seems that way, i guess ill have to post more three page posts to make sure i get my point across. lol. also, my lol's are put there to soften it so its not meant to be an attack, i mean im not sitting here stewing over my keyboard, swearing, and jamming keys lol... im simply stating what i have seen. i just posted some facts on the nebula, i garuntee that peeps will try to say they arnt, even though b4 i typed anything i double checked with memory alpha, my manuals, and other vaious sources that are considered canon. i mean i could come on here and say that the color black is black, but someone will try to tell me its pink lol....
again sorry if peeps got the idea i was attacking, im not, if i do attack you, youll know it lol.....
im not really mad at the sci's its mroe the devs and stahl. i mean the sci's dont make the decision, they can only help shape the decision. ultimatly the ones w***** disapointing me are the ones pushing the buttons and making the "strange" decisions as of late...
The only point I want to point out here is according to CBS who owns Star Trek, the only official canon is what is in the shows and movies therefore manual and memory alpha is not official canon. For that you can blame CBS, not me.
One other thing, when it comes to canon and what is official and what isn't. I went through the same problem when arguing for caitians so I understand.
Most pro-Cruiser arguments wind up making the case for a Nebula Escort quite nicely.
I really still think they should look at including science/escort/cruiser versions of every ship and having us work to unlock a toggle between them.
So the DEFAULT Excelsior is a Cruiser, the DEFAULT Nebula is Science, the DEFAULT Defiant is an Escort. But do some meaningful tinkering (and I think this would add a lot to crafting) and get the chance to swap a ship over to a developer-created alternate build.
You want to make a Defiant Cruiser? It's still going to have less crew and higher turnrate than most cruisers and it may be a lousy cruiser, on the whole, but you can make it one. Want a Galaxy escort? Well, you may reduce the crew and up the turnrate some but it's going to be a bit more cumbersome escort.
The whole point of Trek science is to have an engineer or a doctor, rigging tools and computers up in an unintended way. So the idea of "overclocking" some aspects of your ship but making them less reliable in other ways? I think that would be perfectly Trek and would solve a lot of this ship class balance dispute.
Most pro-Cruiser arguments wind up making the case for a Nebula Escort quite nicely.
I really still think they should look at including science/escort/cruiser versions of every ship and having us work to unlock a toggle between them.
So the DEFAULT Excelsior is a Cruiser, the DEFAULT Nebula is Science, the DEFAULT Defiant is an Escort. But do some meaningful tinkering (and I think this would add a lot to crafting) and get the chance to swap a ship over to a developer-created alternate build.
You want to make a Defiant Cruiser? It's still going to have less crew and higher turnrate than most cruisers and it may be a lousy cruiser, on the whole, but you can make it one. Want a Galaxy escort? Well, you may reduce the crew and up the turnrate some but it's going to be a bit more cumbersome escort.
The whole point of Trek science is to have an engineer or a doctor, rigging tools and computers up in an unintended way. So the idea of "overclocking" some aspects of your ship but making them less reliable in other ways? I think that would be perfectly Trek and would solve a lot of this ship class balance dispute.
I don't know... there is no way I can see the Defiant ever being a cruiser. That just doesn't make any sense from a practical standpoint.
I don't know... there is no way I can see the Defiant ever being a cruiser. That just doesn't make any sense from a practical standpoint.
It would be a bit more sluggish and a bit more durable escort... with the cruiser label and cruiser weapon restrictions. It would still basically play like an Escort but it would be labeled a Cruiser and just a bit more Cruiser-y.
Likewise with a Galaxy Escort. Slight turnrate change. Slight survivability change and stat change. Gets its bonus from the a different skill tree (ie. Escort Refit). Overall, would feel basically like a tweaked cruiser.
But the tweak would be an option. People who have a skill tree favoring one class would have an option. And the slight stat change and reclassification would make you feel more like you were seriously modding and customizing your ship, like you had that ship rigged up the way O'Brien rigged up DS9 or Scotty had rigged the original Enterprise.
ok memory alpha is considered canon cause they only pull there info from canon sources, it is memory beta that is not canon, as it is about books and has no bearing on the show.
almost everything on memore alpha has the show, who said it and what not linked. memory alpha is the best thing we have to canon on the internet....
first off, ok, it wasnt said that they had the torpedo pod, but... they did say in the show that she had the largest firing radious in the time of the war, which eludes to the torpedo pod. and yes, there was actually quite a bit discussed about them in the wars. gul macet made several statements in tng wounded that place the ship, her powers, and the fact that she was formadable in battle in the episode the wounded. also i believe maxwell had made a few quick references to her. and as far as canon goes, i go with the published tech manual. the one that paramount ok'd... that had some stuff that they signed off on way back after tng came out, there was a whole ton of demand for tech, and backgrounds of ships, people, worlds, and the whole lot, and the powers to be licensed some of the people who had worked on set, and in the writing departments, and other departments of the set, and star trek franchise to create a background. that being said, the more stringent people who only consider canon what was on screen, i believe canon can be whatever paramount or cbs oks as well. that being said, this brings me to your point. if cbs wants to suddenly change what they in the show refered to as a cruiser, than so be it, but in my eyes, that is very soft canon, changing a canonicity for a game lol... further more i dont think this is the case, i think cbs was more into oking the models, not what they actually do. i think once they ok what it looks like, they let them do what they want with it. this why most talk about cbs is just getting rights to models, and other various visuals...
ok guy, i think we are mis reading, and misinterpreting some of the things we are saying, i do not wish to fight with you. ill debate you, but i think we are both getting a little too personal, perhaps we should agree to disagree and leave it at that hahahaha. i mean before we say something that is over the line lol.. again im not sitting here being mad, i am giggling a little at the thought of me getting upset over the forums lol.
but that being said, i do see your points as well man, i dont agree with them, but i have taken time to consider them. i still hold on to my stance, and as far as you discrediting my canon, well, the same could be said for your version of canon.
so remember, just smile, take a deep breath, and have a good one. good night all....
but that being said, i do see your points as well man, i dont agree with them, but i have taken time to consider them. i still hold on to my stance, and as far as you discrediting my canon, well, the same could be said for your version of canon.
so remember, just smile, take a deep breath, and have a good one. good night all....
I have no problem agreeing to disagree and if you recall I did mention there is your canon and others canon and somewhere in between is the truth.
As far as memory alpha, I would like to agree with you however, CBS themselves said only the movies and shows are canon. I ran into the same issue when arguing for the Caitians so I know what you are saying but the honest point is that if we want to argue canon then we are limited to the movies and shows.
Back to Gul Macet all he said was that the Phoenix was a heavily armed warship. No details were mentioned that I can find.
Comments
The idea of the Nebula being a science ship was not by me. The Nebula was a science ship in a game called Star Trek Armada which I posted earlier.
The need of a science ship, is to serve as a support vessel of the entire fleet. They were used in the Tachyon detection Grid in TNG, where Sela was trying to run a blockade of Romulan ships while they were cloaked during the KLingon Civil War.
Not intended as a frontline "battleship" but as a back of the line support vessel "since it is not supposed to tank" like the real cruisers.
STO has proposed making it a science ship with a cruiser hull for strength during hard times.
I would say fighting the Klingons is a hard time....No?
Actually in that TNG episode, the grid was started by Enterprise, and it didnt matter what kind of ships were in the grid...but oh well..
You are right. There were different ships outfitted with the devices to emit tachyons.
The reference wasn't the best one, but its early!
On the other hand, they were serving in a science role, and not combat.
I honestly hope it comes in a a replacement for Star Cruisers since they haven't had any love in the recent spate of refits. I know the science vessels haven't had much either, but the Nebula is hardly a scout class vessel or a light cruiser, its a heavy cruiser which kinda narrows it down to what it should be at least in my eyes.
A heavily science based cruiser would be more in keeping with the design of the Nebula than a pure Science ship.
Because people are hurt that cruisers are too numerous. It doesnt matter if you made it exactly like a science ship in BO slots, weapon slots, hull numbers etc, slap the name cruiser on it and people will scream and yell.
EDIT: Sorry, this is quite a belligerent post. Its late and this issue is frustrating. My point still stands, at least in the case of a very small minority of people.
Astute observation.
Personally, I was hoping for the Nebula to be to Science Captains, what the Excelsior is to Tactic Captains. That's slightly less crew, slightly more turn rate and Lt. Commander consoles to the class of choice, in addition to the cruiser's engineering emphasis. (That and maybe a Tactics-Nebula alternative with built in High-Yield with respect to the torpedo platform module.)
That's not going to happen however, because that apparently violates one of Cryptics concepts, namely that you should be able to know what class a ship is by how it looks. I suppose it could be done with a different pod for cruiser then sci...
But that doesn't seem to be what Cryptic wants to do, they want it be one class.
Canon can not be used to show that the ship should be a cruiser or science, only that it can be either one. Since canon doesn't say one way or the other, it's completely up to cryptic to decide what they want to make it.
From what I've seen in this thread they agreed with a portion of the player base that there needs to be more sci ships, so they're making it that. Wither it will be a good one or not... I don't know.
To be fair you could do the same thing in reverse, make it like a Cruiser in BO slots, weapons slots, ect... Call it a Science ship and you'd have people scream and yell.
Yes indeed, we and they are pretty much stuck with this system and for good or ill its the quality of this experience that we face when we play, unless ofc a total or in-part renovation occurs in a future season update.
With that in mind, its no surprise that every ship that is introduced will be met with a considerable degree of disapproval no matter which way it's categorised and tooled up, both before and after it's gone live.
If a considerable pool of folks warned Cryptic about this in Beta then it comes as no surprise that a constantly brewing storm has hovered amidst the community on this subject fueled by dissatisfied customers, very passionate fans and MySTO players.
Canon...it's their call not ours but your paying for the next round if you so choose.
ok, it is a frontline ship, it was a frontline ship in the cardassian war. what people seam to forget is that it is almost the exact same ship (not just talking about looks, if you look up its specs and its history youll see) as the galaxy, the only reason they started running them was to make a "cheaper" version of the galaxy, and to get rid of the tactically "weak" neck. other than that it shares all the same equipment (minus the pods) and weaponry as a galaxy... they were prodused as a frontline ship in the cardassian war, and were a frontline ship in the dominion war, and any conflict with the borg.... and yes, the tachyon detection grid was started by enterprise, so if you say that ships that used the tachyon detection grid should be science ships, well then, im sorry, but heres the list... galaxy class, ambassader class, appollo class, excelsior class, nebula class, and i cant remember the other ones off the top of my head, but those are just what i remember... i think you guys should get them, if cryptic would make a move like that, they would end my missery and i could cancel my monthly subscript without the pain of wanting to play lol...
you guys are only seeing and hearing what you want too you hang on to anything that you think will get you a new ship, cause for some reason sci guys seem to think cryptics plan was never to make another sci vessel again, even though we are only in the what 8th or 9th month of the game being out lol... so what, everytime a new ship comes out the sci community is going to argue why it should be a sci ship...... you dont hear tac officers complaining about our ships, (even though our number is up cause everyone has some sort of answer for us lol..) i mean i would love to see the nebula as an escort, but lets face it, its a cruiser, and im not going to argue for it, just as science players shouldnt, its a silly argument that has absolutely zero merit to it... like i posted before, the defiant has a sensor grid, as does the prometheus, maybe we should swich those to science vessels, oh and if i remember correctly, one of the first fed ships to have a cloaking device of anykind was an oberth class, so that is irrifutable proof that sci guys should **** and moan about getting the defiant as a sci ship, i mean, its only canon right...... lol...
In my opinion it seems quite apparent, that the Nebula is better suited to be a Cruiser, than anything else. I'm a Science guy, and I don't really have a problem with this.
I think maybe a better way to go about this, is to create three versions:
Phoenix Varient - Sensor Pod (Science).
Melbourne Varient - Extra Warp Engines (Engineering).
Nebula - Torpedo Pod (Tactical).
Maybe these could be costumes for The Nebula, and keep the proposed Universal Bridge Officer slot.
Or maybe just keep it like the Excelsior, and have a Lt.Comm Science Slot, instead of the Universal Slot proposed earlier. So it would be a replacement for the Star Cruiser, much like The Excelsior was for The Sovereign.
It also wouldn't do any harm as a Science Ship either, although it might not be Canon, I don't believe anyone said the Luna was a Science Vessel, or even The Intrepid for that matter.
i didnt say id cancel for this one ship, i was joking that if they changed all the ships that appeared in the episode with the tachyon detection grid to sci that i would, not that that would happen, but i was merely making a point lol.... im not saying that it would be terrible as a sci ship, i am merely stating that canon wise, it should be a more rounded "cruiser" that way it could better portray that either sci, eng, or tac can use it, as is, it only has 6 weapon "hardpoints" and no respectable tac or engineer officer would give up those two points.... not only that, but the power allocations and consoles are way to off to be useable by a tac officer... as a cruiser, it can be.... that is all that i am saying...
lol, the first fed ship to have a universal boff slot is also the most useless ship to 80 + percent of the fed population lol.... i mean sci's are the least popular of the two and they are only making a small percentage of the feds happy with this one... id be interested to see how the sales look for it when it releases..
Yes, they should. Just so you know, my first avatar is a science officer VA Tribbler. The other is a VA Tact, and I am working on the VA Eng. Each with the ship of their expertise.
I do remember that Tacts got the awesome Defiant, and the Eng. got the power got the Excelsior & Seperated Saucer Galaxy. And Science got the Voyager. It is time for the Science class to get theirs, so really its either time for another Science ship or Tact ship. Apparently Cryptic is thinking science next.
That looks like the progression their taking and yes the Promethius would have been nice, Maybe season 4.
engineers got the power??? i dont understand lol.....
engineers and tacs got the excelsior, it was more tac, the nebula was supposed to be just like the excelsior, a science based (but not overly sci, so its more practical for everyone to use.) cruiser. and quite frankly, if they release it the way they are posting what its stats are, its gonna be a pretty useless ship... i bet all the sci guys get it, use it for a few weeks, and go back to the other sci ships, then i will post a thread called "what a waste" and we will have to hear every sci guy complain about how cryptic first nerfed them, and now they slap them in the face with this ship... sure a few guys will like it, but like a poster said earlier (and i believe he said he was a sci guy) the config for sci is horrable, and its a tin can or something.... i see that the sci guys would rather mess a ship up and have it all to themselves, than have it be usefull to someone...
i agree that sci needs a ship, just as tac does, but the nebula is not that ship... it does not fit the mold for either, and would have been a happy median in the cruiser catagory.
and as far as the refit ships go, the only one i see regularly is the intrepid class (voyager)... most tacs have gone to either the fleet escort, the advanced escort, or the excelsior.... almost no engineers fly the refit galaxy cause it was as useless as a bull with t***, lol.... and if i do see someone flying it, i let them know about their mistake pretty quickly.... the only one that had staying power was the intrepid, and i still get slapped around by them in my defiant.... so as much as sci guys like to complain there is no love, i think they got the best refit out of us all...
and as far as cryptic thinking it had to go to the sci guys, they originally posted that they had thought about it being a sci ship, but felt that it was better suited as a cruiser, and said that it was a cruiser, then pulled the classic cryptic reneg cause a few sci guys complained lol.... "mommy, can u please buy me this toy"... "im sorry, well get it next time"..... (kid throws a fit in the middle of the store, mother ends up buying the toy...) this is the sad fact of what happened.
So, you now want Cryptic to "renege" again and make it a cruiser? Just so mommy will buy you this toy to stop you throwing your fit?
Actually, I think there was some well reasoned debate on both sides of the argument as to why it should be X class, just as there was some well reasoned debate about having the ship in all 3 roles. Sure, there was some childishness from certain elements, once again from both sides of the cruiser/science debate, but overall it was debated maturely.
Man, your perception of what happened it way off base. Pretty much the only reason I see that you are making a big deal out of this is that the Nebula is your favorite ship and you wanted it to be a cruiser.
Tough, they are making it a sci ship as it should be.
Also if you think the Intrepid is the best refit that is your choice but as a sci I out damage and last longer in my cruiser then Intrepids so you can believe what you want. The overall point it that the nebula isn't even tested yet so you don't know what it will perform or not perform like.
i dont care what they do at this point, i am simply stating my dismay at the constant reneging, and other bs that happens. i baught this game because when i read and watched and listened to how this game was supposed to be the closest to a trek feel, or canon feel, it intruiged me, but as of late, even the simplest things they are taking liberties with. most everything is cut and dry with how to build, or impliment it, as they have a slew of background story to base it on... if you asked most true star trek fans what the nebula classification should be (not in context to the game) they would almost all say its a heavy cruiser... i try to immerse myself in this game, but the constant shinanigans make it hard to.. this was just the straw that broke the camels back for me.... should they make it a cruiser yes, would it be reneging, no, since that was the original plan for it, and since it fits the story, and canonality better its more of a correction, not reneging, will they, probably not, should they , yes.. do i care either way, no, i for one wouldnt be suprised if in a few days to a week they come out and say that they are changing it to an escort, and then boom, when the day finally comes that it releases, they have three varients of it... am i hoping for this, no, but it is weird that they would come out and flat out say that its gonna be a cruiser, then reneg on it....
i wouldnt be suprised if they release the gd nx as an escort and slap us tac officers in the face lol.....
but no my ranting is not to change things parsay, if it does great, but its more to bring lite to the fact that this game is removing itself from the canon feel almost on a day to day basis. i find myself losing interest and i dont know how much longer i can hold out.....
and ps dude, argue whatever you want, but dont be an a** about it, these are meant to be friendly debates, where we can vent and have a laugh at the same time....
There problem is there is your canon and others canon and somewhere in between lies the truth. There were canon reasons for it being a sci ship and canon reasons for it being a cruiser but the truth is all of those ships are multi role. I would imagine by the 24th century and beyond the "cruiser" nomenclature is just a hold over from the nautical days due to tradition and not to function.
Also nobody rengeged on anything, when the draft was posted it did say subject to change which means they didn't renege on anything.
You were the one who's been posting about the science players whining like a kid who wants a toy that mommy wouldn't buy them. That's not part of a friendly debate; that's generalization and insulting. It's not my fault you don't like your words (that you used to describe others) when they are used to describe you.
actually the defiant is my fav. ship, i flew it as a t4 even b4 the released the refit, and lets just say i made it work.... that being said, the nebula is my second fav. ship, and yes i am disapointed that i will not be able to use it in a practical sense, but as i stated above, this game is losing its canonality on a daily basis. and further more i dont care that its a game and canon doesnt matter to everyone, but when they come out and say in the begining that they are going to be the most canon game ever, and that they are going to make it the best imersion into trek, then i expect that to fallow through no matter what anyone says... like i said, i dont care what happens anymore, and i am starting to get sick of arguing it cause half the people posting in here cant see past there own nose.... instead of someone saying, hey, he makes a good argument as to why it should be a cruiser, you guys keep "making up" reasons as to why it should be a sci, and most of you only state, "ummm its going to be a sci, or it should be a sci" but cant bring any real argument as to why.... i love star trek, and as a kid, b4 the defiant, the neb was my fav. and i have done alot of research on it for role playing and stuff like that. i feel like i could practically build one in my backyard lol..... and let me tell you, making it a sci ship does it no justice whatsoever, and is the farthest thing from what the original designer, and paramount decided it to be.... this is my gripe with the choice, and i started this thread to bring to light why it shouldnt be a sci vessel. there is no valid point as to why it should be, so i wouldnt even try. lol....
i still whole hardedly feel that they screwed up how they classify ships, as i have stated in the past, ships should have been made for the ship in hand, not for a particular class (ie, sci, tac, eng.) and what kind of buffs and boff slots it got should have depended on what your profession was... i think the nebula at least should have been a class in its own as far as the current game, and should have stayed with just the universal boff slot. all cryptic had to do was make it a unique ship, and no one would argue...
further more, your attitude is not welcome in my thread, if you would like to continue to discuss this, than do so with out being a donkey... u dont have to personally attack me or anyone else making points, or who are partaking int he discussion, if it looks like i did, i can tell you that was not my intention. but keep it clean, and keep it sane lol....
here are a few canon facts to help guide anyone who might try to "come up" with reason it should be a science ship...
1. she was built and originally equiped witht he torpedo pod (specifically for the early cardassian wars and conflicts)
2. she was indeed a frontline ship, she was in every major conflict ranging from the early cardassian wars, to the dominion war (including just about every borg encounter, almost every major dominion battle, and every major cardassian battle)
3. she was originally built for patrol, and most of the ships built did this, only a handfull were equiped with other pods (such as the xtra necelles or the sensor pod) (the galaxys did most of the exploring)
4. she was designed and built to replace the galaxy (ie, the galaxy had a problem with a "weak neck" and was too expensive [resource wise] and so the nebula was a cheaper, stronger, more tactically inclined version) (there were only something like 32 or 36 galaxys produced, one of the shortest runs in a major ships career)
5. the nebula has been seen on screen somewhere between 22 and 28 times (the exact number eludes me right now), of the lets say 26 times, she was seen once with a sensor pod, once with the xtra necelles, and the rest of the time she adorned the torpedo pod.
6. the nebula and the galaxy share all the same systems, and weapons, they are almost identical (though they scaled the nebula down a little, the nebula actually isnt as long (since its stardrive sits directly below the saucer, and its saucer was a little smaller. all in all this was said to increase menuverablility to give it a better tactical advantage that the galaxy lacked..
7. in canon, the nebula and the galaxy actually share the same explorer cruiser class, and in memory alpha if you actually read the offensive and defensive sections, it states that the ship has a huge armament (hardly worthy of 6 hard points) and was a great adversary in battle.. (i know in memory alpha it says, its abilites include science, but not even three or four words after it also states patrol and exploration.. ummm, yeah, dont link that anymore lol...
now im not trying to be a jerk or anything by what i have shared above, i am simply giving some facts to help people see where i am coming from...
dude, im not saying every sci guy is like that, there are some in this thread posting that they would rather see it a cruiser so im not generalizing everyone... sorry it seems that way, i guess ill have to post more three page posts to make sure i get my point across. lol. also, my lol's are put there to soften it so its not meant to be an attack, i mean im not sitting here stewing over my keyboard, swearing, and jamming keys lol... im simply stating what i have seen. i just posted some facts on the nebula, i garuntee that peeps will try to say they arnt, even though b4 i typed anything i double checked with memory alpha, my manuals, and other vaious sources that are considered canon. i mean i could come on here and say that the color black is black, but someone will try to tell me its pink lol....
again sorry if peeps got the idea i was attacking, im not, if i do attack you, youll know it lol.....
im not really mad at the sci's its mroe the devs and stahl. i mean the sci's dont make the decision, they can only help shape the decision. ultimatly the ones w***** disapointing me are the ones pushing the buttons and making the "strange" decisions as of late...
You obviously missed where I said there is canon reasons for both sides. Something else to consider is since the ships have to be approved by CBS (Not paramount) as CBS now has the rights to Star Trek. When it is approved it becomes canon. So you see there is no reason to debate canon as when it is released it is the new canon. Also you seem to want to argue canon but the fact is there is enough contradictions in canon through out Star Trek that making blanket canon claims is pointless.
Something else, we don't have to argue the points of why it should be a sci vessel as it has already been pointed out to you in this thread over and over again. However, you refuse to accept those answers to the monkey is on your back so to speak.
On another note some of us have been die hard Star Trek fans since the TOS so your "research" etc doesn't matter. Not in this debate considering there are actually very few canon sources so you can feel free to climb off your high horse.
No the nebula should not be a "class" of its own. First off technically it is in a class by itself since it is called the Nebula class. However, I don't think you were talking about that situation. Again, it sounds more and more like sour grapes.
Well, I have kept it clean as I have not referred to anyone as a donkey or any other animal. Also I am not making any Ad Hominum attacks either. At the worse I calling your motivation as suspect since you seem to disregard the fact that they did say it was subject to change yet you still say they reneged. Others have given you canon reasons which you ignore and even I pointed out that there is different interpretations of canon and you didn't even refer back to that. So yes, I find your motivations to entirely self centered as you wanted the Nebula as a cruiser because you want it as a cruiser and not because it would be good for the game as a whole. At no time did you say" The nebula as a cruiser would make the game better for all players" So far you keep bringing it back to your own selfish wants. That isn't an attack that is just the way you seem to be coming across.
Considering only what is in the movies and the shows are the real canon and it was never said in the shows that it was specifically for the early Cardassian wars then you are incorrect. It was first shown with a torpedo pod that is true but nothing about the early wars was mentioned in reference to the class.
Again, since the shows and the movies are the only official canon you can't state this with certainty.
See above
There is no canon source for this.
This has no bearing on anything
No canon source
Memory Alpha is not a canon source.
The problem is those aren't necessarly facts as that information was never mentioned in the shows beyond a few points, mostly visual. So outside of that it is only speculation. You have to remember that only what is in the shows and movies is officially canon. So you can argue canon but if you do you need to use only the official sources. [EDIT... made a few mistakes in the original posting so I correct the formatting but the grammer errors are on their own.]
The only point I want to point out here is according to CBS who owns Star Trek, the only official canon is what is in the shows and movies therefore manual and memory alpha is not official canon. For that you can blame CBS, not me.
I really still think they should look at including science/escort/cruiser versions of every ship and having us work to unlock a toggle between them.
So the DEFAULT Excelsior is a Cruiser, the DEFAULT Nebula is Science, the DEFAULT Defiant is an Escort. But do some meaningful tinkering (and I think this would add a lot to crafting) and get the chance to swap a ship over to a developer-created alternate build.
You want to make a Defiant Cruiser? It's still going to have less crew and higher turnrate than most cruisers and it may be a lousy cruiser, on the whole, but you can make it one. Want a Galaxy escort? Well, you may reduce the crew and up the turnrate some but it's going to be a bit more cumbersome escort.
The whole point of Trek science is to have an engineer or a doctor, rigging tools and computers up in an unintended way. So the idea of "overclocking" some aspects of your ship but making them less reliable in other ways? I think that would be perfectly Trek and would solve a lot of this ship class balance dispute.
I don't know... there is no way I can see the Defiant ever being a cruiser. That just doesn't make any sense from a practical standpoint.
It would be a bit more sluggish and a bit more durable escort... with the cruiser label and cruiser weapon restrictions. It would still basically play like an Escort but it would be labeled a Cruiser and just a bit more Cruiser-y.
Likewise with a Galaxy Escort. Slight turnrate change. Slight survivability change and stat change. Gets its bonus from the a different skill tree (ie. Escort Refit). Overall, would feel basically like a tweaked cruiser.
But the tweak would be an option. People who have a skill tree favoring one class would have an option. And the slight stat change and reclassification would make you feel more like you were seriously modding and customizing your ship, like you had that ship rigged up the way O'Brien rigged up DS9 or Scotty had rigged the original Enterprise.
almost everything on memore alpha has the show, who said it and what not linked. memory alpha is the best thing we have to canon on the internet....
first off, ok, it wasnt said that they had the torpedo pod, but... they did say in the show that she had the largest firing radious in the time of the war, which eludes to the torpedo pod. and yes, there was actually quite a bit discussed about them in the wars. gul macet made several statements in tng wounded that place the ship, her powers, and the fact that she was formadable in battle in the episode the wounded. also i believe maxwell had made a few quick references to her. and as far as canon goes, i go with the published tech manual. the one that paramount ok'd... that had some stuff that they signed off on way back after tng came out, there was a whole ton of demand for tech, and backgrounds of ships, people, worlds, and the whole lot, and the powers to be licensed some of the people who had worked on set, and in the writing departments, and other departments of the set, and star trek franchise to create a background. that being said, the more stringent people who only consider canon what was on screen, i believe canon can be whatever paramount or cbs oks as well. that being said, this brings me to your point. if cbs wants to suddenly change what they in the show refered to as a cruiser, than so be it, but in my eyes, that is very soft canon, changing a canonicity for a game lol... further more i dont think this is the case, i think cbs was more into oking the models, not what they actually do. i think once they ok what it looks like, they let them do what they want with it. this why most talk about cbs is just getting rights to models, and other various visuals...
ok guy, i think we are mis reading, and misinterpreting some of the things we are saying, i do not wish to fight with you. ill debate you, but i think we are both getting a little too personal, perhaps we should agree to disagree and leave it at that hahahaha. i mean before we say something that is over the line lol.. again im not sitting here being mad, i am giggling a little at the thought of me getting upset over the forums lol.
but that being said, i do see your points as well man, i dont agree with them, but i have taken time to consider them. i still hold on to my stance, and as far as you discrediting my canon, well, the same could be said for your version of canon.
so remember, just smile, take a deep breath, and have a good one. good night all....
I have no problem agreeing to disagree and if you recall I did mention there is your canon and others canon and somewhere in between is the truth.
As far as memory alpha, I would like to agree with you however, CBS themselves said only the movies and shows are canon. I ran into the same issue when arguing for the Caitians so I know what you are saying but the honest point is that if we want to argue canon then we are limited to the movies and shows.
Back to Gul Macet all he said was that the Phoenix was a heavily armed warship. No details were mentioned that I can find.