Agent Purple: "Dryan already posted evidence several pages back. Daeke specifically said that it was only obtainable through the LTS.
No he posted a chat log. In the chat log he said you could not obtain the items by other means. Which at the time was true you could not. However that changed."
That people seem to think he meant some sort of cryptic (No pun intended.) market-speak speaks leagues about how far you're willing to stretch the facts to get your way. Honestly, if that wasn't enough to make you understand the CO LTSers point of view, I doubt anything will.
There was nothing cryptic about it. That is what it means. It was exclusive at that time... AT THAT TIME. Exclusive in marketing is the same as "Limited time offer" I am sorry you don't think it means that, it does. You can search the web and see that.
Agent you seem to be arguing based on a principle and I respect that. I can even sympathies with you. However, you can't claim that the chat log is proof when it isn't. It just isn't. Now, earlier you said it was a shady business practice. That might be true. Yet it is used in almost every industry. That may not excuse it but it does establish causality for why people know what it means.
Dryan already posted evidence several pages back. Daeke specifically said that it was only obtainable through the LTS.
/quote]
No he posted a chat log. In the chat log he said you could not obtain the items by other means. Which at the time was true you could not. However that changed.
There was nothing cryptic about it. That is what it means. It was exclusive at that time... AT THAT TIME. Exclusive in marketing is the same as "Limited time offer" I am sorry you don't think it means that, it does. You can search the web and see that.
Agent you seem to be arguing based on a principle and I respect that. I can even sympathies with you. However, you can't claim that the chat log is proof when it isn't. It just isn't. Now, earlier you said it was a shady business practice. That might be true. Yet it is used in almost every industry. That may not excuse it but it does establish causality for why people know what it means.
If you're going to try and troll me, at least refer to the post i made in its context.
Context of the post being, Cryptic opening up said items - be they referal program or preorder items is nothing more than another way for them to tap into extra revenue. Conveniently, some wanted these items thus giving Cryptic a smokescreen for making them available: "People wanted it so we did it" instead of making them veteran rewards (an excellent suggestion imo) or just flat out admitting it's just to make money. After all these items just opened up have been in game from the start (except the AGT G-X) and took no extra art or development time, yet they're in the store like stuff released since launch that did, races, ship skins etc).
So, if it truly was about the players vs making money, why put a charge on something that took no additional development time?
Just since you seemed to need it spelled out.
Umm... Cryptic is a profit organization. They aren't a charity for people with cancer. Sorry killa, but you should never have been under the delusion that they were out there for anything but profit.
There's a difference between running a business where one enjoys their customers and just giving things away.
Ya know, I have tried to be understanding of the principle of your argument. I have tried to explain to you that I don't disagree that something was said to you. I tried to point out that you don't have ANY evidence to back you your claim.. which by the way you don't. Not even that chat log... sorry. Also it is interesting that you claim I have a legal high horse when it was you that yesterday brought the subject of EU law into this.
At this point, all I can see is I can see the bovine excrement in your argument. You fail to see it, that is on you.
Finally. I don't know any other way how to put his but you are wrong, wrong and wrong.
So, have a doughnut and be happy.
The EU law argument was used way too much. It also shows Dryan is hypocritical by telling you to get off a legal high horse now.
A $200 dollar, in game only costume piece does say significant things about a person.
The added benefits do not equal the total cost of the decision. As I understand it from reading other posts, the choice was not $200 for the uniform. It was either $200 paid over 13 months, because the person was considering they would play STO for at least that long, or $200 now with the added bonus of the uniform.
If you did anything at the tailor other than use the random function for your character's appearance and uniform doesn't that say something about you in a similar vein to someone considering the added bonus of a uniform is worth taking into account?
The EU law argument was used way too much. It also shows Dryan is hypocritical by telling you to get off a legal high horse now.
I've have no idea what you intentions are, but please don't use my name in vain.
The discussion in the other thread around legality was started by another person. I was party to the conversation. Not once did I suggest anyone is entitled to legal action over this, nor that I would be seeking any. It wouldn't succeed.
By EU law this move at least for he MU uniforms is illegal, by US law its apparently not. We can complain, but were can't take action due to the country of sale.
The added benefits do not equal the total cost of the decision. As I understand it from reading other posts, the choice was not $200 for the uniform. It was either $200 paid over 13 months, because the person was considering they would play STO for at least that long, or $200 now with the added bonus of the uniform.
If you did anything at the tailor other than use the random function for your character's appearance and uniform doesn't that say something about you in a similar vein to someone considering the added bonus of a uniform is worth taking into account?
I like my character's uniforms just fine.
However, just so you know, the LTS wasn't for STO. It was for Champions Online. So, they weren't considering 200 for STO
I just hope your not intending to give out the Galaxy (AGT) model that was for the referal program to the CSTORE...because then you will have lost not just myself but iam sure others...
I've have no idea what you intentions are, but please don't use my name in vain.
The discussion in the other thread around legality was started by another person. I was party to the conversation. Not once did I suggest anyone is entitled to legal action over this, nor that I would be seeking any. It wouldn't succeed.
Ummm you did say they could be entitled to legal action, in the EU. You did say you wouldn't do it and you did say it wouldn't succeed but you did say they could try it.
Ummm you did say they could be entitled to legal action, in the EU. You did say you wouldn't do it and you did say it wouldn't succeed but you did say they could try it.
I've have no idea what you intentions are, but please don't use my name in vain.
The discussion in the other thread around legality was started by another person. I was party to the conversation. Not once did I suggest anyone is entitled to legal action over this, nor that I would be seeking any. It wouldn't succeed.
By EU law this move at least for he MU uniforms is illegal, by US law its apparently not. We can complain, but were can't take action due to the country of sale.
DUDE.... it was shown to you in the other thread how it isn't illegal even in the EU.
Oh... I am sooo not going into this again.
Dryan if you want to debate this on principle that is fine with me but at this point you are being circular and arbitrary not to mention obstinate about a couple of things.
If you ask a question directly to someone, and you are given a clear answer you can't change that. Just because in depth informaiton isn't around anymore to evidence it, doesn't mean that conversation didn't take place. We have at least demonstated such questions were being raised and we were receiving answers, which indicated a true exclusive nature.
I do not dispute the conversation took place. However, since the in-depth information is not around anymore it this not a valid argument.
DUDE.... it was shown to you in the other thread how it isn't illegal even in the EU.
Oh... I am sooo not going into this again.
Dryan if you want to debate this on principle that is fine with me but at this point you are being circular and arbitrary not to mention obstinate about a couple of things.
*/facepalm
You showed what you thought, not fact. That seems to be your problem.
Umm... Cryptic is a profit organization. They aren't a charity for people with cancer. Sorry killa, but you should never have been under the delusion that they were out there for anything but profit.
There's a difference between running a business where one enjoys their customers and just giving things away.
There's also a difference between milking your current playerbase with items (via the C-Store) that other games call content that gets released in free patches.
Ship skins, emotes, clothing/costume art is all part and parcel of most MMO's free update cycles.
Other things like name changes and extra slots are services that can be purchased outside the game and yet other thangs like new races get released in pay for expansions.
What it boils down to, is Cryptic being flat out dishonest to the people that did the right thing by them in the first place at a point where there was a solid chance that STO could have been stillborn because of the numerous and documented issues players have elaborated on since beta.
This lates "promotion" which as cleverly disguised as something "of benefit to players" has been carried out in a way that disproves that very statement because Cryptic are making EVEN MORE MONEY than they already have from those items by charging anyone without them when they took no extra time to create or develop.
Dishonest marketing is dishonest marketing. No matter how much it's sugar coated.
You may have no problem with a company being dishonest to you about how they do business with you, others do and they're annoyed and expressing that.
Hmm..after reading this thead I have to wonder: "Was it a good idea to make everything available to everyone and making a buck at the cost of totally dividing the player base?"
I won't disagree that we used the Mirror Universe Uniforms to drive sales, but I think you have it backwards. We used that perk to further interest in STO, not the other way around. What you purchased however, was a Lifetime Subscription to Champions, which you still have, and always will. Again, I'm sorry you feel mislead, it was never our intention to make any of our players feel that way.
Incorrect, what you sold and what we bought was a package. Not just a subscription alone.:
Limited-Time Subscription Deals!
We're very excited to announce two special subscription packages available for purchase for a limited-time! Both of these offers are only going to be around until supplies last, so sign up while you still can. Below are the details for both the lifetime and 6-month subscriptionpackages.
Also I don't feel saying that you were trying to increase interest in STO is entirely accurate. Especially given how quickly those offers sold out precisely because of the included Guaranteed Closed Beta Access. There were even posts on the STO forums explaining the reason for the offer was to reward people that played all your games, not just one of them.
But regardless of anyone's feelings on what that purchase actually involved, I have yet to hear any explanation why CO-LTS purchasers were treated less fairly than other customers. After our rather large purchase we only had one month of the promised exclusive, while the Liberated Borg from an equal investment is left completely alone. Is that really the way to treat long term, multi game investors? Maybe you feel it is.
But considering all the talk from your employees that lead people to believe it was the only way to get it, I hope you can see how a month would fall under even the lowest expectations. Something to consider, at least.
You couldn't be more wrong. We value you all immensely. Not only have you heavily invested in us early, but you also form a core group of players which we need to work just as hard to keep playing as people on recurring subscriptions. If you all leave, we've failed.
Its one thing to value us immensely and wish we'd stay on as customers. It another thing to actually make an effort to keep those customers following a difficult decision. So on that level, you've failed with me since I am leaving. But on an overall level, I doubt my absense will affect much.
While I'm sad a company I cared so much about didn't make more of an effort, I do appreciate you opening up a dialogue with us today. You may not have said what I wanted to hear, but at least you're talking.
For the other players reading this, no need to argue any of my points into the ground. We've already discussed it to death, and I'm intending this to be my last post. I lost, you won. Go enjoy some time in game with your nice new shinies. I won't hold it against you.
Comments
No he posted a chat log. In the chat log he said you could not obtain the items by other means. Which at the time was true you could not. However that changed."
There was nothing cryptic about it. That is what it means. It was exclusive at that time... AT THAT TIME. Exclusive in marketing is the same as "Limited time offer" I am sorry you don't think it means that, it does. You can search the web and see that.
Agent you seem to be arguing based on a principle and I respect that. I can even sympathies with you. However, you can't claim that the chat log is proof when it isn't. It just isn't. Now, earlier you said it was a shady business practice. That might be true. Yet it is used in almost every industry. That may not excuse it but it does establish causality for why people know what it means.
Fixed for clarity on my part.
Umm... Cryptic is a profit organization. They aren't a charity for people with cancer. Sorry killa, but you should never have been under the delusion that they were out there for anything but profit.
There's a difference between running a business where one enjoys their customers and just giving things away.
The EU law argument was used way too much. It also shows Dryan is hypocritical by telling you to get off a legal high horse now.
The added benefits do not equal the total cost of the decision. As I understand it from reading other posts, the choice was not $200 for the uniform. It was either $200 paid over 13 months, because the person was considering they would play STO for at least that long, or $200 now with the added bonus of the uniform.
If you did anything at the tailor other than use the random function for your character's appearance and uniform doesn't that say something about you in a similar vein to someone considering the added bonus of a uniform is worth taking into account?
I've have no idea what you intentions are, but please don't use my name in vain.
The discussion in the other thread around legality was started by another person. I was party to the conversation. Not once did I suggest anyone is entitled to legal action over this, nor that I would be seeking any. It wouldn't succeed.
By EU law this move at least for he MU uniforms is illegal, by US law its apparently not. We can complain, but were can't take action due to the country of sale.
Yeppers
/10chars
I like my character's uniforms just fine.
However, just so you know, the LTS wasn't for STO. It was for Champions Online. So, they weren't considering 200 for STO
Don't be too sure...
Ummm you did say they could be entitled to legal action, in the EU. You did say you wouldn't do it and you did say it wouldn't succeed but you did say they could try it.
Name in vain????
Yes, if it were in the EU. It is however not.
DUDE.... it was shown to you in the other thread how it isn't illegal even in the EU.
Oh... I am sooo not going into this again.
Dryan if you want to debate this on principle that is fine with me but at this point you are being circular and arbitrary not to mention obstinate about a couple of things.
*/facepalm
I do not dispute the conversation took place. However, since the in-depth information is not around anymore it this not a valid argument.
You just got finished saying this
"Not once did I suggest anyone is entitled to legal action over this"
But you just did.
Oh man, I need a doughnut.
You showed what you thought, not fact. That seems to be your problem.
There's also a difference between milking your current playerbase with items (via the C-Store) that other games call content that gets released in free patches.
Ship skins, emotes, clothing/costume art is all part and parcel of most MMO's free update cycles.
Other things like name changes and extra slots are services that can be purchased outside the game and yet other thangs like new races get released in pay for expansions.
What it boils down to, is Cryptic being flat out dishonest to the people that did the right thing by them in the first place at a point where there was a solid chance that STO could have been stillborn because of the numerous and documented issues players have elaborated on since beta.
This lates "promotion" which as cleverly disguised as something "of benefit to players" has been carried out in a way that disproves that very statement because Cryptic are making EVEN MORE MONEY than they already have from those items by charging anyone without them when they took no extra time to create or develop.
Dishonest marketing is dishonest marketing. No matter how much it's sugar coated.
You may have no problem with a company being dishonest to you about how they do business with you, others do and they're annoyed and expressing that.
Killa
Dude, I showed you fact and link and link.... ah man. I will give you this, your tenacious if not down right silly.
Only time will tell.
yes, please!
Incorrect, what you sold and what we bought was a package. Not just a subscription alone.:
Also I don't feel saying that you were trying to increase interest in STO is entirely accurate. Especially given how quickly those offers sold out precisely because of the included Guaranteed Closed Beta Access. There were even posts on the STO forums explaining the reason for the offer was to reward people that played all your games, not just one of them.
But regardless of anyone's feelings on what that purchase actually involved, I have yet to hear any explanation why CO-LTS purchasers were treated less fairly than other customers. After our rather large purchase we only had one month of the promised exclusive, while the Liberated Borg from an equal investment is left completely alone. Is that really the way to treat long term, multi game investors? Maybe you feel it is.
But considering all the talk from your employees that lead people to believe it was the only way to get it, I hope you can see how a month would fall under even the lowest expectations. Something to consider, at least.
Its one thing to value us immensely and wish we'd stay on as customers. It another thing to actually make an effort to keep those customers following a difficult decision. So on that level, you've failed with me since I am leaving. But on an overall level, I doubt my absense will affect much.
While I'm sad a company I cared so much about didn't make more of an effort, I do appreciate you opening up a dialogue with us today. You may not have said what I wanted to hear, but at least you're talking.
For the other players reading this, no need to argue any of my points into the ground. We've already discussed it to death, and I'm intending this to be my last post. I lost, you won. Go enjoy some time in game with your nice new shinies. I won't hold it against you.