Honestly i couldnt care less what the pro skill-cap side has to say, because all arugments they make is irellevant.
Heres why, and has already been said again and again.
STO skill system was designed from the ground up to be cap-less.
The way i see it there really is only two choices.
1.) completely revamp the skills and weapons from the ground up to reflect a "capped" skill system.
2.) remove the skill cap.
YAY way to foster debate.
The third option is they leave the skill cap. I am not pro or con for the skill cap until someone proves to me that one is bad. So far, after reading and reading I still don't see why a skill cap isn't needed. Can't see why one is needed.
This is why Im putting that entire side on my ignore list. Theres no point in arguing with ppl who are only interested in hearing themselves talk ... or seeing themselves type in this case
They have NO interest in PROVING their points, they just want to "Squabble"
Are you on about "my" side, it being against the removal of the cap system or the opposite side, the one for its removal? Sorry it hards to keep up, since the majority of posts seem to be a lot of petty bickering from either side.
Are you on about "my" side, it being against the removal of the cap system or the opposite side, the one for its removal? Sorry it hards to keep up, since the majority of posts seem to be a lot of petty bickering from either side.
Look at my sig?
In a D&D game, as a DM, I usually would fairly quickly have to figure out ways to limit the xp growth of the party or theyd be mowing down the experiences you put in front of them like its nothing, and you eventually end up having to throw gigantic, epic fights at them every encounter jusat to make it fun. Eventually, that gets tedious for them.
apparently Im a fanboy as I see the reason for the skill cap
The pro-skill cap people made a total of six arguments, every one shot through with the same logical fallacies (sweeping generalization fallacy and affirming the consequent.) The anti-skill cap people made two arguments with two logical fallacies. (Appeal to authority and appeal to consequences).
Both sides, basically, said "we're not listening to the other's arguments becuase we are right and they are too stupid to see we are right". Neither side "discussed" anything and now people are setting each other on ignore.
*slow applause* Top notch, community, top notch. I have formulated a logical counter-attack to SesshoSeki's arguments, but I don't think I'll bother posting it here, I might PM it to him, because it's clear this isn't really about what's "good for the game" but "what I want personally and I don't care about anyone else".
Truly, there isn't much point posting on these forums any more. To the OP: Sorry to see you are going, if you play WAR sometimes come look me up. Same username.
The pro-skill cap people made a total of six arguments, every one shot through with the same logical fallacies (sweeping generalization fallacy and affirming the consequent.) The anti-skill cap people made two arguments with two logical fallacies. (Appeal to authority and appeal to consequences).
Both sides, basically, said "we're not listening to the other's arguments becuase we are right and they are too stupid to see we are right". Neither side "discussed" anything and now people are setting each other on ignore.
*slow applause* Top notch, community, top notch. I have formulated a logical counter-attack to SesshoSeki's arguments, but I don't think I'll bother posting it here, I might PM it to him, because it's clear this isn't really about what's "good for the game" but "what I want personally and I don't care about anyone else".
Truly, there isn't much point posting on these forums any more. To the OP: Sorry to see you are going, if you play WAR sometimes come look me up. Same username.
He's not interested in PMs I can tell you that from experience
While I welcome conversation, I also request it be in the forums, so that anything said is a matter of public record and benefits us all by refraining the truth for all too see.
LOL captain put us all on ignore and nobody even said anything bad to him. Wonder if he holds his breath if they dont bring the ketchup fast enough at a restaurant.:p:p
LOL captain put us all on ignore and nobody even said anything bad to him. Wonder if he holds his breath if they dont bring the ketchup fast enough at a restaurant.:p:p
he dident make any great points so i dont mind being on his ignore. Best if all the pro skill cap people ignore us, then we can tell the new players the truth in peace
sorry to see you go, people leave left and right over the cap but cryptic and atari dont seem to care, its so strange, almost like they want the game to be
Shaka, when the walls fell
The pro-skill cap people made a total of six arguments, every one shot through with the same logical fallacies (sweeping generalization fallacy and affirming the consequent.) The anti-skill cap people made two arguments with two logical fallacies. (Appeal to authority and appeal to consequences).
Both sides, basically, said "we're not listening to the other's arguments becuase we are right and they are too stupid to see we are right". Neither side "discussed" anything and now people are setting each other on ignore.
*slow applause* Top notch, community, top notch. I have formulated a logical counter-attack to SesshoSeki's arguments, but I don't think I'll bother posting it here, I might PM it to him, because it's clear this isn't really about what's "good for the game" but "what I want personally and I don't care about anyone else".
Truly, there isn't much point posting on these forums any more. To the OP: Sorry to see you are going, if you play WAR sometimes come look me up. Same username.
Interestingly I don't understand how you can claim that. My intentions since coming to this forum have entirely been based upon making the game better.
If you are saying that I am wrong for expressing what I consider would be good for the game then I would have to disagree with you. I have only my opinion to go on.
'Listening' is no good when the message is being beaten over your head to the point where you lose your sense of hearing, regardless of whether or not you actually make any valid points.
I would like very much to read your counter to SesshoSeki because I have not yet seen anyone able to do so and of all people....I think perhaps you are the only one to have a chance.
To be honest I will lose no sleep whatsoever over being on Cap's ignore list. I find his style of debate to be enfuriating.
It's up to him......it's just a pity that people can not be civil. I have no doubt that a wedge of that is Cryptic/Atari's fault....but really, is there any need for the forums to foster this negativity any further.
Q: Is the current skill cap appropriate to the skill system ?
A) Yes No
Q: Under the current cap are you able to train what you want to train ?
A) Yes No
Q: How many Admiral skills do you need at endgame ?
A) 4 8
C) 12
D) All of them
Q: How many Admiral skills do you feel is appropriate when reaching the cap ?
A) 4 8
C) 12
D) All of them
Q: How many Admiral skills would you like to have when reaching the cap ?
A) 4 8
C) 12
D) All of them
Q: Given a cap of [X number of skillpoints] Distribute your points in the following graph
For this question make a template character planner that simulates players spending their skills all the way to admiral and then save it. See what skills are being ignored.
One Admiral skill at endgame is unacceptable and the cap needs raised. Four Admiral skills at Endgame is still too low and until the next big expansion its going to be left with one Admiral skill.
Q: Is the current skill cap appropriate to the skill system ?
A) Yes No
Q: Under the current cap are you able to train what you want to train ?
A) Yes No
Q: How many Admiral skills do you need at endgame ?
A) 4 8
C) 12
D) All of them
Q: How many Admiral skills do you feel is appropriate when reaching the cap ?
A) 4 8
C) 12
D) All of them
Q: How many Admiral skills would you like to have when reaching the cap ?
A) 4 8
C) 12
D) All of them
Q: Given a cap of [X number of skillpoints] Distribute your points in the following graph
For this question make a template character planner that simulates players spending their skills all the way to admiral and then save it. See what skills are being ignored.
One Admiral skill at endgame is unacceptable and the cap needs raised. Four Admiral skills at Endgame is still too low and until the next big expansion its going to be left with one Admiral skill.
that would atlest show they listen to everyone not just some people
Q: Is the current skill cap appropriate to the skill system ?
A) Yes No
Q: Under the current cap are you able to train what you want to train ?
A) Yes No
Q: How many Admiral skills do you need at endgame ?
A) 4 8
C) 12
D) All of them
Q: How many Admiral skills do you feel is appropriate when reaching the cap ?
A) 4 8
C) 12
D) All of them
Q: How many Admiral skills would you like to have when reaching the cap ?
A) 4 8
C) 12
D) All of them
Q: Given a cap of [X number of skillpoints] Distribute your points in the following graph
For this question make a template character planner that simulates players spending their skills all the way to admiral and then save it. See what skills are being ignored.
One Admiral skill at endgame is unacceptable and the cap needs raised. Four Admiral skills at Endgame is still too low and until the next big expansion its going to be left with one Admiral skill.
I would say post this poll in a new thread. some polls they close and some they wait a few weeks to close
Skill cap makes the population more diverse, which equals more fun during pvp and pve, i fail to see how those who don't want it, don't understand that.
A) Cryptic will close it Endless amounts of people derailing it into discussio
C) Only gets the forum input
For an accurate result they need to do exactly what they did with the last poll where is displayed in the launcher, the site, notified via E-mail and rewards C-Store points to encourage participation.
Incidentally, its Cryptics records that need to store all the template skill builds people make so they can check whats players are going for. That said, template build dosent get an accurate representation anyway because not everyone has reached Admiral to understand the situation or experienced the fact the skill system is messed up in relation to weapon specialisation.
Hmmm...
Choose the A-P / Polaron / Tricobalt / Chroniton weapon for 4500 skill points
or
Choose the phaser / Disruptor / Quantum / Photon weapon for 2700 skill points
'Oh but the effects are key' - Right ?
So lets say a newb starts... do they get to have the effect of Anti-Protons straight off ?
Uhh no, infact this game has a linear equipment scale based on the point where players can train those skills for the weapons.
Thus, if you want to use A-P your going to spend 90% of the leveling process without them which either means you need to train another weapon skill UNTILL that point and then respec or sit gimped for the game until you reach the point you can train those weapons.
Now what does waiting all the time get you ?
Absolutly, FA.
Mr. Phaser / Disruptor / Quantum / Torpedo user can skill away throughout the game doing more DPS all the way to endgame AND have spare points to put elsewhere thus improving them even more.
4500 - 2700 = 1800 points to put into whatever they want.
Thats up to 4 Captain skill levels and 200 points left. For a Tactical, that means mr. Space dude can now dump enough points to increase his ground skills or enhance his ship further via science powers / engineering powers or three new skills being introduced.
While Mr. Polaron gets the ability to do the exact same DPS with a 2.5% chance of a special proc as their only improved benefit.
Q: "Should every class, build, and player have every skill maximized?"
A:
-- Y
-- N
Q: "Should a skill-tree force you to make choices that potentially differentiate and specialize your current build from other players that make different skill-allotment choices?"
A:
-- Y
-- N
Let's also ask those basic, RPG element-based questions.
there is no CHOICE with a capped system, its all flavour of the month builds. capless lets you choose how you want to fight a encounter. can change things up and be creative
And again, what incentive is there to be "different" when the choices no longer matter, and if you make a mistake you just add as many points as necessary? You basically sidestepped the question, as the opposite is true - by forcing choices, you give a incentive to be creative. Again, the real call for "no skill caps" was the fact of NO RESPECS., so that if you made a mistake (and plenty did, with the basically undocumented skill trees), there was no way to change things around - but with no skill point cap, all you had to do was "fill in the blanks". Now, with respecs almost here, that point is moot - don't like what you have? Change it with a respec!
Note with a caped system when you join a new fleet that enjoys high end raiding ( if sto will ever have that ) they will want you to respec to THERE needs. pigeon holed agian
Which will inevitably happen in ANY system where roles are required; that is, any system based on class. Which is most MMOs ever created to date - and even in the few "classless" MMOs fleets will often require you to be equipped in a certain way or have a certain set of skills (EvE as a example - not for raids but for PvP blobs). It's a inevitable fact of ANY human grouping that beyond a certain size, specialization is required. Witht he current system, once you "specialized" on a character that was it - couldn't change it around - again, the call for "no skill point cap" to get around that limitation.
Cause and effect - a skill point cap + no respecs = call for "no skill point cap" to fill in the gaps - instead, Cryptic's giving us respecs and a skill point cap - so it's less of a issue. A better fix would be a really good set of documents onthe skill tree system for each class with what skills affext what - but that may be a bit too much to ask of the devs.
Skill cap is essential, but it can be reworked for the better. Weapon type skills need to branch better, i.e. the last thing you should rank up should be the phaser/disruptor/plasma etc. skill.
Would also be good to see mutually exclusive skills. That is, make it impossible for me to learn x if I learn y.
Q: "Should a skill-tree force you to make choices that potentially differentiate and specialize your current build from other players that make different skill-allotment choices?"
A:
-- Y
-- N
Q: " Should skills differentiate into specifc class limited roles ?"
so..... TRIBBLE it all, open up all the skills, make it a classless system and no cap. Everyone's happy.
Except that everyone will be the same.
We are the players. Lower your firewall and prepare to be assimilated. Your uber loots and trolling skills will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.
We are the players. Lower your firewall and prepare to be assimilated. Your uber loots and trolling skills will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.
Comments
YAY way to foster debate.
The third option is they leave the skill cap. I am not pro or con for the skill cap until someone proves to me that one is bad. So far, after reading and reading I still don't see why a skill cap isn't needed. Can't see why one is needed.
Are you on about "my" side, it being against the removal of the cap system or the opposite side, the one for its removal? Sorry it hards to keep up, since the majority of posts seem to be a lot of petty bickering from either side.
Look at my sig?
apparently Im a fanboy as I see the reason for the skill cap
Now if only Egosoft had made STO.
Oddly, I never liked x3... which IS weird as I LOVED the wing commander series
Ok got you
The game would lag horredously and the missions would barely tell you what to do...
Oh wait...
The pro-skill cap people made a total of six arguments, every one shot through with the same logical fallacies (sweeping generalization fallacy and affirming the consequent.) The anti-skill cap people made two arguments with two logical fallacies. (Appeal to authority and appeal to consequences).
Both sides, basically, said "we're not listening to the other's arguments becuase we are right and they are too stupid to see we are right". Neither side "discussed" anything and now people are setting each other on ignore.
*slow applause* Top notch, community, top notch. I have formulated a logical counter-attack to SesshoSeki's arguments, but I don't think I'll bother posting it here, I might PM it to him, because it's clear this isn't really about what's "good for the game" but "what I want personally and I don't care about anyone else".
Truly, there isn't much point posting on these forums any more. To the OP: Sorry to see you are going, if you play WAR sometimes come look me up. Same username.
He's not interested in PMs I can tell you that from experience
he dident make any great points so i dont mind being on his ignore. Best if all the pro skill cap people ignore us, then we can tell the new players the truth in peace
Dont tell captain_moxie he will put you on ignore.
Shaka, when the walls fell
Interestingly I don't understand how you can claim that. My intentions since coming to this forum have entirely been based upon making the game better.
If you are saying that I am wrong for expressing what I consider would be good for the game then I would have to disagree with you. I have only my opinion to go on.
'Listening' is no good when the message is being beaten over your head to the point where you lose your sense of hearing, regardless of whether or not you actually make any valid points.
I would like very much to read your counter to SesshoSeki because I have not yet seen anyone able to do so and of all people....I think perhaps you are the only one to have a chance.
It's up to him......it's just a pity that people can not be civil. I have no doubt that a wedge of that is Cryptic/Atari's fault....but really, is there any need for the forums to foster this negativity any further.
Brick wall.....meet my head.
Like thus:
Q: Do you agree with having a skill cap
A) Yes
Q: Is the current skill cap appropriate to the skill system ?
A) Yes
Q: Under the current cap are you able to train what you want to train ?
A) Yes
Q: How many Admiral skills do you need at endgame ?
A) 4
C) 12
D) All of them
Q: How many Admiral skills do you feel is appropriate when reaching the cap ?
A) 4
C) 12
D) All of them
Q: How many Admiral skills would you like to have when reaching the cap ?
A) 4
C) 12
D) All of them
Q: Given a cap of [X number of skillpoints] Distribute your points in the following graph
For this question make a template character planner that simulates players spending their skills all the way to admiral and then save it. See what skills are being ignored.
One Admiral skill at endgame is unacceptable and the cap needs raised. Four Admiral skills at Endgame is still too low and until the next big expansion its going to be left with one Admiral skill.
that would atlest show they listen to everyone not just some people
I would say post this poll in a new thread. some polls they close and some they wait a few weeks to close
A) Cryptic will close it
C) Only gets the forum input
For an accurate result they need to do exactly what they did with the last poll where is displayed in the launcher, the site, notified via E-mail and rewards C-Store points to encourage participation.
Incidentally, its Cryptics records that need to store all the template skill builds people make so they can check whats players are going for. That said, template build dosent get an accurate representation anyway because not everyone has reached Admiral to understand the situation or experienced the fact the skill system is messed up in relation to weapon specialisation.
Hmmm...
Choose the A-P / Polaron / Tricobalt / Chroniton weapon for 4500 skill points
or
Choose the phaser / Disruptor / Quantum / Photon weapon for 2700 skill points
'Oh but the effects are key' - Right ?
So lets say a newb starts... do they get to have the effect of Anti-Protons straight off ?
Uhh no, infact this game has a linear equipment scale based on the point where players can train those skills for the weapons.
Thus, if you want to use A-P your going to spend 90% of the leveling process without them which either means you need to train another weapon skill UNTILL that point and then respec or sit gimped for the game until you reach the point you can train those weapons.
Now what does waiting all the time get you ?
Absolutly, FA.
Mr. Phaser / Disruptor / Quantum / Torpedo user can skill away throughout the game doing more DPS all the way to endgame AND have spare points to put elsewhere thus improving them even more.
4500 - 2700 = 1800 points to put into whatever they want.
Thats up to 4 Captain skill levels and 200 points left. For a Tactical, that means mr. Space dude can now dump enough points to increase his ground skills or enhance his ship further via science powers / engineering powers or three new skills being introduced.
While Mr. Polaron gets the ability to do the exact same DPS with a 2.5% chance of a special proc as their only improved benefit.
Q: "Should every class, build, and player have every skill maximized?"
A:
-- Y
-- N
Q: "Should a skill-tree force you to make choices that potentially differentiate and specialize your current build from other players that make different skill-allotment choices?"
A:
-- Y
-- N
Let's also ask those basic, RPG element-based questions.
And again, what incentive is there to be "different" when the choices no longer matter, and if you make a mistake you just add as many points as necessary? You basically sidestepped the question, as the opposite is true - by forcing choices, you give a incentive to be creative. Again, the real call for "no skill caps" was the fact of NO RESPECS., so that if you made a mistake (and plenty did, with the basically undocumented skill trees), there was no way to change things around - but with no skill point cap, all you had to do was "fill in the blanks". Now, with respecs almost here, that point is moot - don't like what you have? Change it with a respec!
Which will inevitably happen in ANY system where roles are required; that is, any system based on class. Which is most MMOs ever created to date - and even in the few "classless" MMOs fleets will often require you to be equipped in a certain way or have a certain set of skills (EvE as a example - not for raids but for PvP blobs). It's a inevitable fact of ANY human grouping that beyond a certain size, specialization is required. Witht he current system, once you "specialized" on a character that was it - couldn't change it around - again, the call for "no skill point cap" to get around that limitation.
Cause and effect - a skill point cap + no respecs = call for "no skill point cap" to fill in the gaps - instead, Cryptic's giving us respecs and a skill point cap - so it's less of a issue. A better fix would be a really good set of documents onthe skill tree system for each class with what skills affext what - but that may be a bit too much to ask of the devs.
Would also be good to see mutually exclusive skills. That is, make it impossible for me to learn x if I learn y.
It's the skill-TREE that needs tweaked, if anything. (keep a skill-cap, once that's done)
And while they're at it, add a TRIBBLE-LOAD of faction-specific, lore-based weapons to each faction. (and integrate that into the new skill-tree)
Letting everyone have everything is utterly a waste of time. Might as well just remove the damn skill-tree altogether then.
:mad:
Q: "Should every player have the ability to maximize every class skill?"
A:
1) Y
2) N
Q: " Should skills differentiate into specifc class limited roles ?"
A:
1) Y
2) N
Fixed
so..... TRIBBLE it all, open up all the skills, make it a classless system and no cap. Everyone's happy.
Except that everyone will be the same.
We are the players. Lower your firewall and prepare to be assimilated. Your uber loots and trolling skills will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.
Hey, did you know im a fanboy now?