and yes I will point you to the EVE skill system to show you that your statement is false.
I can't help but notice that you fail to mention, which is why I did not use EVE as an example, that EVE has an open skill system because EVE takes years to train whole skill groups to what may never become maxed out.
EVE has no end game content because it has not end game! You never stop growing in EVE. So lets not try to make a point by omitting important information. I played EVE for almost 5 years, I know it well, and STO is not EVE.
Hmmn, everyone wants no skill cap, but thats not a good idea. Everyone will be the SAME. There'll be no variety of characters. Not to mention how this'll just turn towards eve in terms of character building. Who wants to be the same? =/
There u go, its being worked on. They ARENT gtonna impliment it RIGHT NOW no matter how many "squabbles" (as you like this word) you start
The part that involvbes you actually countering anything. I see you posting definitions of words, deflecting issues, but I have yrt to see any of this "countering" you keep talking about, but ill ge back up the thread, im a few pages back, so I might have missed it.
Your point is flawed through and through. You even tried to use this before in a different thread and I then proceeded to point out where I had countered you.
I will happily debate anyone on any topic in these forums if I feel there is a reason to. But you seem to enjoy in the circular debate by asking people to go over old points again and again.
So i conclude that to debate with you is an effort in futility and nothing can be acchieved by it other than to waste time.
Whether you choose to interpret what I am telling you is a counter as something else is not my problem. If you choose not to take what I am saying as I intended then I can only recommend that we shake hands and walk away from debating with each other. For I see nothing gained by having to go over old points just to convince you that what I have said in the past is a true counter to your arguments.
If you should decide to engage in a meaningful debate with me in the future then I would ask you to consider what I am saying now and refrain from circular debate.
Hmmn, everyone wants no skill cap, but thats not a good idea. Everyone will be the SAME. There'll be no variety of characters. Not to mention how this'll just turn towards eve in terms of character building. Who wants to be the same? =/
Not flaming you but i am liking how you combined this and will to get this'll. very creative and i will be using it in the future
Originally Posted by dstahl
The designers have looked into options but a re-ranking structure would be akin to redesigning the entire skill tree which isn't coming any time soon if ever.
Note no skill cap removed
no skill system to be fixed, what are we left with?
The interesting thing about this is that they don't have to change it. What I mean is, they can add an entire new tree on top of it. Sure they can add and remove skill from this tree but instead of removing the cap they can just add a new progression tree on top of it.
Your point is flawed through and through. You even tried to use this before in a different thread and I then proceeded to point out where I had countered you.
I will happily debate anyone on any topic in these forums if I feel there is a reason to. But you seem to enjoy in the circular debate by asking people to go over old points again and again.
So i conclude that to debate with you is an effort in futility and nothing can be acchieved by it other than to waste time.
Whether you choose to interpret what I am telling you is a counter as something else is not my problem. If you choose not to take what I am saying as I intended then I can only recommend that we shake hands and walk away from debating with each other. For I see nothing gained by having to go over old points just to convince you that what I have said in the past is a true counter to your arguments.
If you should decide to engage in a meaningful debate with me in the future then I would ask you to consider what I am saying now and refrain from circular debate.
lol you keep telling me how youre countering me yet, with the exception of me using an old dev post, I have yet to see you DO it. YOU saying it doesnt make it happen, you DO realize this, right?
Can someone show me what the skill tree would look like WITHOUT a cap? Does the lack of a cap mean that you could theoretically max out every skill you have?
I can't help but notice that you fail to mention, which is why I did not use EVE as an example, that EVE has an open skill system because EVE takes years to train whole skill groups to what may never become maxed out.
EVE has no end game content because it has not end game! You never stop growing in EVE. So lets not try to make a point by omitting important information. I played EVE for almost 5 years, I know it well, and STO is not EVE.
Correct STO is not EVE but my point remains valid as they use a capless system. I too have played EVE for a number of years and I too can say that I understand that EVE is not STO.
But don't take it out of context. I was using the skill system as an example to disprove the fallacy that capless systems mean everyone will end up being the same.
People said oh but everyone will be the same.....I countered with.....add more skills then. Case closed.
The interesting thing about this is that they don't have to change it. What I mean is, they can add an entire new tree on top of it. Sure they can add and remove skill from this tree but instead of removing the cap they can just add a new progression tree on top of it.
I know, I always wondered why they just didnt plan to do this and leave the original uncapped skill tree in place. One of the many stupid Cryptic design decisions that has seriously reduced the CO and STO player bases.
get some sleep. This particular fight i have a feeling will still be here in the morning and the next morning and the next and the next.
This'll be around till Cryptic gives a final word, and then it'll still be argued.
Its a fair call to say that if the skill cap is removed, then yes, everyone is on an even playing field, especially when you cap your skills (They're rather meagre to be honest, wont take long).
However I personally like the cap, it forces you to plan and build your character, and then play the character style around which it is built. This means, if you skill for antiproton, then you use antiproton exclusively and you'll do great dps. If you skill for engineering, you'll do 12-14k heals and be hard to kill. You skill for science and you have great shields and/or insane CCs(ugh).
What you wont have is great dps, 14k heals and 30second CCs. What is the real point of that? Is that balance? Yes and No. Balance because everyone gets it, but will it be truely fun? C'mon
Hey, we agree on something, but not cause yer right, unless of course, you intend on them adding skill points for all eternity, then designing content for those infinite skill point players, leaving ppl that are new to end game essentially screwed from being able to run it till THEY get infinite skills too, but because, like your paragon, you are unable to see that you are wrong. You also have closed your mind to any but your own argument, and like your paragon, there IS NO arguing with you because refuse to change. YOU know what YOU think is right, and EVERYONE is wrong NO MATTER WHAT.
IVE already listened to the other side, having decided on my own what I think is correc t, and I have yet to see anything intelligent come out of your side other that "DEBATE ME I WIN" type stuff and how you seem to win all debats without countering arguments.
I wish I could win an argument because I say I did, but then I live in a place called reality.
Actually, for the most part I DO think they would be mostly identical. The whole game is essentially based around dps. Threat is dps based, loot is dps based. So yer gonna run the best dps ships available, th best dps weapons, kits, etc. EVENTUALLY, yes, its all gonna end up the same stuff if you can max out everything.b
If this is the case - if dps is essentially the basis of the game and maximizing dps is the best way to play - then our characters will be identical whether we have a skill cap or not.
Consider:
If there is no skill cap, how may one maximize dps? Max out all available skills, then "run the best dps ships available, th best dps weapons, kits, etc." Result: everyone is identical.
If there is a skill cap, how may one maximize dps? Max out the skills which offer the best dps, then "run the best dps ships available, th best dps weapons, kits, etc." Result: everyone is identical.
The point being, perhaps dps is not a particularly meaningful factor in the skill cap/no skill cap argument.
See, Im done, not cause yer right, but because I get points when I post and repost the same thing over and over, and THAT is eventually gona render me unable to post
(PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT AIMED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR)
The interesting thing about this is that they don't have to change it. What I mean is, they can add an entire new tree on top of it. Sure they can add and remove skill from this tree but instead of removing the cap they can just add a new progression tree on top of it.
Which if anyone had bothered to read the Season 1 notes, they are doing thiswith introducing three new skills.
Part of the whole basis for the "no skill cap" argument is the fact that there are no respecs in-game yet, so mistakes can't be corrected at all by the min-maxers. Well, in Season 1's content patch it's been said that there are respecs - so that argument goes away permanently. So does much of any argument for no skill point caps - after all, when you can respec it doesn't matter all that much, now does it?
Part of any game is CHOICE - even if it's at the level of "do I use the pistol, or use the sniper rifle?". Having a skill point cap forces the choice - players muust choose between alternatives to buiuld their character and their playstyle. That also forces diversity in characters, as not everyone will be the same. Having no player skill point cap means that none of the choices matter, and everyone will be on a level playing field at emd game. Wonderful for PvP, as then player skill will shine out - and bad for PvP as well, since EVERYONE will know what to equip and what to defend against Since we can change euipment in space at a whim, this would eliminate ANY challenge - enemy's using Polaron? Switch in the Polaron resistance module and off ya go. See that Escort coming? Have yoru Shield skills maxed, and hacve a Sci officer with Jam Sensors - hit 'em with a chroniton torp and watch him melt. It would KILL the endgame by eliminating all challenge once the rules are figured out.
Cryptic made a real mistake byu having a PvE-centric grind to endgame, then a PvP endgame. That was a BAD mistake, as such MMOs inthe past have always failed. Whether or not Cryptic can salvage it is another matter - I hope they can, as nobody else has so far.
Correct STO is not EVE but my point remains valid as they use a capless system. I too have played EVE for a number of years and I too can say that I understand that EVE is not STO.
But don't take it out of context. I was using the skill system as an example to disprove the fallacy that capless systems mean everyone will end up being the same.
People said oh but everyone will be the same.....I countered with.....add more skills then. Case closed.
EVE limits skill levels or mastering many different skills by using a skill progression system based on real time. Not everyone is going to spend 27 days training Commandships 5, and that is not even a Capital Ship. CCP (EVE's Dev) does not want a system where everyone is a Master of Everything.
Here in STO, just adding more skills won't fix the problem that eventually everyone will have all of the same skills at Maximum level. Its skill progressing is based on earned skill points, much faster than real time. Only way to fix this would be to hyper inflate the skill point cost of the skills, stretch out the tier advancement, and over time add more skills (tier 6, 7 , etc....).
STO is not even 45 days old yet, it is not fair to compare it to a game that has been around for over 6 years and has had dozens of patches and about 8 expansions.
I think Atari is to blame, they see short sighted gain in having a skill cap (money), cryptic has to do as they are told. ofc a capless system will make more money in the long run, but a caped system will pay more atm
No cap = long term income/cash cow
Cap = Quick money and atari is hungry
am sorry the dev's designed a great game and were forced the change it the last minute by said named party
I think Atari is to blame, they see short sighted gain in having a skill cap (money), cryptic has to do as they are told. ofc a capless system will make more money in the long run, but a caped system will pay more atm
No cap = long term income/cash cow
Cap = Quick money and atari is hungry
am sorry the dev's designed a great game and were forced the change it the last minute by said named party
I've already argued my points in another thread which included you as well, so you already know my points and arguments against removing the cap, and from my viewed I believe I sufficently proved it was a bad idea.
This is why Im putting that entire side on my ignore list. Theres no point in arguing with ppl who are only interested in hearing themselves talk ... or seeing themselves type in this case
They have NO interest in PROVING their points, they just want to "Squabble"
Which if anyone had bothered to read the Season 1 notes, they are doing thiswith introducing three new skills.
Part of the whole basis for the "no skill cap" argument is the fact that there are no respecs in-game yet, so mistakes can't be corrected at all by the min-maxers. Well, in Season 1's content patch it's been said that there are respecs - so that argument goes away permanently. So does much of any argument for no skill point caps - after all, when you can respec it doesn't matter all that much, now does it?
Part of any game is CHOICE - even if it's at the level of "do I use the pistol, or use the sniper rifle?". Having a skill point cap forces the choice - players muust choose between alternatives to buiuld their character and their playstyle. That also forces diversity in characters, as not everyone will be the same. Having no player skill point cap means that none of the choices matter, and everyone will be on a level playing field at emd game. Wonderful for PvP, as then player skill will shine out - and bad for PvP as well, since EVERYONE will know what to equip and what to defend against Since we can change euipment in space at a whim, this would eliminate ANY challenge - enemy's using Polaron? Switch in the Polaron resistance module and off ya go. See that Escort coming? Have yoru Shield skills maxed, and hacve a Sci officer with Jam Sensors - hit 'em with a chroniton torp and watch him melt. It would KILL the endgame by eliminating all challenge once the rules are figured out.
Cryptic made a real mistake byu having a PvE-centric grind to endgame, then a PvP endgame. That was a BAD mistake, as such MMOs inthe past have always failed. Whether or not Cryptic can salvage it is another matter - I hope they can, as nobody else has so far.
there is no CHOICE with a capped system, its all flavour of the month builds. capless lets you choose how you want to fight a encounter. can change things up and be creative
Note with a caped system when you join a new fleet that enjoys high end raiding ( if sto will ever have that ) they will want you to respec to THERE needs. pigeon holed agian
Hey, we agree on something, but not cause yer right, unless of course, you intend on them adding skill points for all eternity, then designing content for those infinite skill point players, leaving ppl that are new to end game essentially screwed from being able to run it till THEY get infinite skills too, but because, like your paragon, you are unable to see that you are wrong. You also have closed your mind to any but your own argument, and like your paragon, there IS NO arguing with you because refuse to change. YOU know what YOU think is right, and EVERYONE is wrong NO MATTER WHAT.
IVE already listened to the other side, having decided on my own what I think is correc t, and I have yet to see anything intelligent come out of your side other that "DEBATE ME I WIN" type stuff and how you seem to win all debats without countering arguments.
I wish I could win an argument because I say I did, but then I live in a place called reality.
I have never once said I have won an argument because I said I did.
Once again you are making points that have no relevance and so I stand by my decision to not debate with you further. It is a pure waste of my time to enter into a debate with you. You are completely wrong in your assumption that I will not accept when I am wrong....as I have done so....many times before. If you should choose to ignore this.....it's not my problem, but good luck to you.
I have no animosity towards you and I wish you the best in the game and in life in general.
Like I say if you wish to enter into an intellectual debate with me at some point in the future I ask that you cease to make unfounded arguments and try to base your points in fact.
Same way Vanguard was destroyed by Sony, I felt sorry for Sigil. One of the reasons why I hate Sony, they make good MMos, but ultimately tend to destroy them with poor decision making.
Honestly i couldnt care less what the pro skill-cap side has to say, because all arugments they make is irellevant.
Heres why, and has already been said again and again.
STO skill system was designed from the ground up to be cap-less.
The way i see it there really is only two choices.
1.) completely revamp the skills and weapons from the ground up to reflect a "capped" skill system.
2.) remove the skill cap.
Its too late, Cryptic made there beds and now they have to sleep in them. The game has launched, it'll be near on impossible to make major changes now. Maybe in the future if STo survives we might see a Star Trek Online: New Game Experience like they did with SWG...../facepalm
Comments
I can't help but notice that you fail to mention, which is why I did not use EVE as an example, that EVE has an open skill system because EVE takes years to train whole skill groups to what may never become maxed out.
EVE has no end game content because it has not end game! You never stop growing in EVE. So lets not try to make a point by omitting important information. I played EVE for almost 5 years, I know it well, and STO is not EVE.
Can I have your stuff?
Your point is flawed through and through. You even tried to use this before in a different thread and I then proceeded to point out where I had countered you.
I will happily debate anyone on any topic in these forums if I feel there is a reason to. But you seem to enjoy in the circular debate by asking people to go over old points again and again.
So i conclude that to debate with you is an effort in futility and nothing can be acchieved by it other than to waste time.
Whether you choose to interpret what I am telling you is a counter as something else is not my problem. If you choose not to take what I am saying as I intended then I can only recommend that we shake hands and walk away from debating with each other. For I see nothing gained by having to go over old points just to convince you that what I have said in the past is a true counter to your arguments.
If you should decide to engage in a meaningful debate with me in the future then I would ask you to consider what I am saying now and refrain from circular debate.
Not flaming you but i am liking how you combined this and will to get this'll. very creative and i will be using it in the future
The interesting thing about this is that they don't have to change it. What I mean is, they can add an entire new tree on top of it. Sure they can add and remove skill from this tree but instead of removing the cap they can just add a new progression tree on top of it.
lol you keep telling me how youre countering me yet, with the exception of me using an old dev post, I have yet to see you DO it. YOU saying it doesnt make it happen, you DO realize this, right?
Then again, this thread is little more than http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=137495 part two lol and you all didnt fare too well there either
Correct STO is not EVE but my point remains valid as they use a capless system. I too have played EVE for a number of years and I too can say that I understand that EVE is not STO.
But don't take it out of context. I was using the skill system as an example to disprove the fallacy that capless systems mean everyone will end up being the same.
People said oh but everyone will be the same.....I countered with.....add more skills then. Case closed.
I know, I always wondered why they just didnt plan to do this and leave the original uncapped skill tree in place. One of the many stupid Cryptic design decisions that has seriously reduced the CO and STO player bases.
Not sure I understand, not sure I got my point across either, i need sleep
get some sleep. This particular fight i have a feeling will still be here in the morning and the next morning and the next and the next.
I am aquainted with the practice of combining This and Will........I am in the UK and it's not unheard of.
First time i ever saw it used. i like it and will be using it in the future
This'll be around till Cryptic gives a final word, and then it'll still be argued.
Its a fair call to say that if the skill cap is removed, then yes, everyone is on an even playing field, especially when you cap your skills (They're rather meagre to be honest, wont take long).
However I personally like the cap, it forces you to plan and build your character, and then play the character style around which it is built. This means, if you skill for antiproton, then you use antiproton exclusively and you'll do great dps. If you skill for engineering, you'll do 12-14k heals and be hard to kill. You skill for science and you have great shields and/or insane CCs(ugh).
What you wont have is great dps, 14k heals and 30second CCs. What is the real point of that? Is that balance? Yes and No. Balance because everyone gets it, but will it be truely fun? C'mon
edit typo, need sleep.
Hey, we agree on something, but not cause yer right, unless of course, you intend on them adding skill points for all eternity, then designing content for those infinite skill point players, leaving ppl that are new to end game essentially screwed from being able to run it till THEY get infinite skills too, but because, like your paragon, you are unable to see that you are wrong. You also have closed your mind to any but your own argument, and like your paragon, there IS NO arguing with you because refuse to change. YOU know what YOU think is right, and EVERYONE is wrong NO MATTER WHAT.
IVE already listened to the other side, having decided on my own what I think is correc t, and I have yet to see anything intelligent come out of your side other that "DEBATE ME I WIN" type stuff and how you seem to win all debats without countering arguments.
I wish I could win an argument because I say I did, but then I live in a place called reality.
If this is the case - if dps is essentially the basis of the game and maximizing dps is the best way to play - then our characters will be identical whether we have a skill cap or not.
Consider:
If there is no skill cap, how may one maximize dps? Max out all available skills, then "run the best dps ships available, th best dps weapons, kits, etc." Result: everyone is identical.
If there is a skill cap, how may one maximize dps? Max out the skills which offer the best dps, then "run the best dps ships available, th best dps weapons, kits, etc." Result: everyone is identical.
The point being, perhaps dps is not a particularly meaningful factor in the skill cap/no skill cap argument.
(PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT AIMED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR)
Which if anyone had bothered to read the Season 1 notes, they are doing thiswith introducing three new skills.
Part of the whole basis for the "no skill cap" argument is the fact that there are no respecs in-game yet, so mistakes can't be corrected at all by the min-maxers. Well, in Season 1's content patch it's been said that there are respecs - so that argument goes away permanently. So does much of any argument for no skill point caps - after all, when you can respec it doesn't matter all that much, now does it?
Part of any game is CHOICE - even if it's at the level of "do I use the pistol, or use the sniper rifle?". Having a skill point cap forces the choice - players muust choose between alternatives to buiuld their character and their playstyle. That also forces diversity in characters, as not everyone will be the same. Having no player skill point cap means that none of the choices matter, and everyone will be on a level playing field at emd game. Wonderful for PvP, as then player skill will shine out - and bad for PvP as well, since EVERYONE will know what to equip and what to defend against Since we can change euipment in space at a whim, this would eliminate ANY challenge - enemy's using Polaron? Switch in the Polaron resistance module and off ya go. See that Escort coming? Have yoru Shield skills maxed, and hacve a Sci officer with Jam Sensors - hit 'em with a chroniton torp and watch him melt. It would KILL the endgame by eliminating all challenge once the rules are figured out.
Cryptic made a real mistake byu having a PvE-centric grind to endgame, then a PvP endgame. That was a BAD mistake, as such MMOs inthe past have always failed. Whether or not Cryptic can salvage it is another matter - I hope they can, as nobody else has so far.
EVE limits skill levels or mastering many different skills by using a skill progression system based on real time. Not everyone is going to spend 27 days training Commandships 5, and that is not even a Capital Ship. CCP (EVE's Dev) does not want a system where everyone is a Master of Everything.
Here in STO, just adding more skills won't fix the problem that eventually everyone will have all of the same skills at Maximum level. Its skill progressing is based on earned skill points, much faster than real time. Only way to fix this would be to hyper inflate the skill point cost of the skills, stretch out the tier advancement, and over time add more skills (tier 6, 7 , etc....).
STO is not even 45 days old yet, it is not fair to compare it to a game that has been around for over 6 years and has had dozens of patches and about 8 expansions.
No cap = long term income/cash cow
Cap = Quick money and atari is hungry
am sorry the dev's designed a great game and were forced the change it the last minute by said named party
How is a skill cap going to make them more money?
This is why Im putting that entire side on my ignore list. Theres no point in arguing with ppl who are only interested in hearing themselves talk ... or seeing themselves type in this case
They have NO interest in PROVING their points, they just want to "Squabble"
there is no CHOICE with a capped system, its all flavour of the month builds. capless lets you choose how you want to fight a encounter. can change things up and be creative
Note with a caped system when you join a new fleet that enjoys high end raiding ( if sto will ever have that ) they will want you to respec to THERE needs. pigeon holed agian
I have never once said I have won an argument because I said I did.
Once again you are making points that have no relevance and so I stand by my decision to not debate with you further. It is a pure waste of my time to enter into a debate with you. You are completely wrong in your assumption that I will not accept when I am wrong....as I have done so....many times before. If you should choose to ignore this.....it's not my problem, but good luck to you.
I have no animosity towards you and I wish you the best in the game and in life in general.
Like I say if you wish to enter into an intellectual debate with me at some point in the future I ask that you cease to make unfounded arguments and try to base your points in fact.
Heres why, and has already been said again and again.
STO skill system was designed from the ground up to be cap-less.
The way i see it there really is only two choices.
1.) completely revamp the skills and weapons from the ground up to reflect a "capped" skill system.
2.) remove the skill cap.
Its too late, Cryptic made there beds and now they have to sleep in them. The game has launched, it'll be near on impossible to make major changes now. Maybe in the future if STo survives we might see a Star Trek Online: New Game Experience like they did with SWG...../facepalm
This message is hidden because Rumbleskin is on your ignore list.
yay
guess thats what you do when you know you are wrong and wont face it