I don't play enough or have enough time to support losing my stuff then starting over..
Same here. Sadly, I will bet real money this is the direction they will go with it. Some seem to think there is a need for massive time and currency sinks in the game, so Cryptic can kill 2 birds with 1 stone with a DP. It's unfortunate that you sift through posts here with people suggesting "innovations" and "new types of gameplay", yet want the same stale and boring features (DP) that lend nothing to the gameplay experience.
I dont think anyone has ever suggested a DP quite as strong as permanently losing your best ships and gear. I think this is something the anti crowd like to bandy around as gospel in order to recruit more people to their side of the fence.
Actually, there have been (very few) pro-DPs that want it.
The object of a DP is not to cripple anyone's toon, its simply to avoid zerging and promote more considered / strategic gameplay imo....this is not space invaders after all....
This may sound crazy but, how about NOT teaming with people who want to play differently than you do? I know that may sound insane, but you know what? It works perfectly 100% of the time.
Also, who is forcing anyone to zerg? The game is not, the individual players themselves are.
Not to make sound as though I really enjoy poking holes in arguments (ok, I do)..
1 - How do you, when pugging, determine who's going to want to play differently?
2 - Assuming that doesn't work, do you mean team off auto-teaming?
3 - No-ones being forced to play zerg. It's just really annoying have a team of 5, 4 of which decide to kamikaze rather than play as a team.
Ok, that's actually rare, usually it's only 1 of the team. But that's still very annoying when the team has more than enough firepower and diversity to do the mission without anyone's shields failing.
Same here. Sadly, I will bet real money this is the direction they will go with it. Some seem to think there is a need for massive time and currency sinks in the game, so Cryptic can kill 2 birds with 1 stone with a DP. It's unfortunate that you sift through posts here with people suggesting "innovations" and "new types of gameplay", yet want the same stale and boring features (DP) that lend nothing to the gameplay experience.
See thats the thing, I think that a DP does add to the gameplay experience imo...firstly it makes you think about the consequences of your actions.
Secondly, if Science officers and crafters were able to make consumables to remove and penalty from death, that would also add to their game experience...I cannot think of any MMORPG without a DP and its a constant wonder to me why there is such a resistence to it in this game.
Whilst I used to be a hardcore MMORPG player, these days I am deffo a casual as wife / kids / job prevent me from spending more than a couple of nights a week gaming....I would still rather have a DP than not.
Heck even single player games have a DP, such as loss of progress or being reset to the last checkpoint / save or whatver....
A sample of a minority cannot be applied to the whole - thus when the poll is being used to say "the [entire STO population] votes 60% opposed to DP", it's unverifiable.
umm a lot of drugs (legal ones :P) hit the market after small samples of the population show them as safe. 2 years later 30 people die
just about every survey out there that claims viable statistics has a small sample size. yet it is still taken in consideration.
not trying to deliberately knock you off your perch here, and when it comes to games forums i believe all players should be polled, but that statement of yours is not correct as it stands. the poll may be skewed due to who does and doesnt come to the forum, but that doesnt make it an illegitimate poll. its just that the sample isnt really a good one in terms of what the whole playerbase wants, although as a sample of the population it still succeeds at being valid.
umm a lot of drugs (legal ones :P) hit the market after small samples of the population show them as safe. 2 years later 30 people die
just about every survey out there that claims viable statistics has a small sample size. yet it is still taken in consideration.
You miss the point.
The forum-viewers and posters are a minority group within the population - they are not representative of the whole.
The drugs trials are done on samples of the target group.
Try to apply that here, the target 'group' is the entire player-base of STO. For the sample to be representative, it has to include people from the non-forum going group, first-time MMO players etc. That isn't done here.
not trying to deliberately knock you off your perch here, and when it comes to games forums i believe all players should be polled, but that statement of yours is not correct as it stands. the poll may be skewed due to who does and doesnt come to the forum, but that doesnt make it an illegitimate poll.
Correct. My point is that it can't be taken as representative of the entire playerbase - while if you look back, that's exactly what a few people (not the OP) have been doing.
its just that the sample isnt really a good one in terms of what the whole playerbase wants, although as a sample of the population it still succeeds at being valid.
Not population .
Please, if you're going to post "You're wrong", have the common sense to read back to what I'm responding to.
Not to make sound as though I really enjoy poking holes in arguments (ok, I do)..
Is it really that difficult for you?
1 - How do you, when pugging, determine who's going to want to play differently?
How about saying "hello" in team chat to start up a conversation? Discuss strategy with the other player(s)? For example, I like to take my time between objectives in missions. I don't full impulse zerg from one enemy squadron to the next. If I'm auto teamed and the others are doing that, I'll leave the team and do the mission myself at my pace.
2 - Assuming that doesn't work, do you mean team off auto-teaming?
See above.
3 - No-ones being forced to play zerg. It's just really annoying have a team of 5, 4 of which decide to kamikaze rather than play as a team.
What's stopping you from leaving that team? Drop it and go on your merry way. Use the chat channels to advertise for teammates and let them know how you like to do things. LEAD the team instead of just zoning in and complaining that no one listens and just zergs. Put some EFFORT into doing that and you will eventually find like-minded players. It's so easy to do these things.
Ok, that's actually rare, usually it's only 1 of the team. But that's still very annoying when the team has more than enough firepower and diversity to do the mission without anyone's shields failing.
and
Secondly, if Science officers and crafters were able to make consumables to remove and penalty from death, that would also add to their game experience...I cannot think of any MMORPG without a DP and its a constant wonder to me why there is such a resistence to it in this game.
I've seen this argument mentioned numerous times now and in my mind it fails completely. A DP is not going to force anyone to help with buffs/debuffs. All it will do is cause bad players to become more focused on staying alive themselves to avoid the penalty than they will focus on helping you or the rest of your team.
Use in-game chat and the forums here to find players with a similar playstyle as you. A monkey can do it it's so easy.
Heck even single player games have a DP, such as loss of progress or being reset to the last checkpoint / save or whatver....
Last I checked, this is what STO does so by this definition, it has a DP.
How about saying "hello" in team chat to start up a conversation? Discuss strategy with the other player(s)? For example, I like to take my time between objectives in missions. I don't full impulse zerg from one enemy squadron to the next. If I'm auto teamed and the others are doing that, I'll leave the team and do the mission myself at my pace.
See above.
What's stopping you from leaving that team? Drop it and go on your merry way. Use the chat channels to advertise for teammates and let them know how you like to do things. LEAD the team instead of just zoning in and complaining that no one listens and just zergs. Put some EFFORT into doing that and you will eventually find like-minded players. It's so easy to do these things.
So it's not 100% success. :rolleyes:
Nothing stops me (or others) leaving or leading a team. Since so many missions can be completed solo anyway, it's not a problem. I love all the assumptions you, and others, make when asked questions. It speaks a lot about you.
I asked questions to get answers. You gave none. Thanks.
The forum-viewers and posters are a minority group within the population - they are not representative of the whole.
The drugs trials are done on samples of the target group.
Try to apply that here, the target 'group' is the entire player-base of STO. For the sample to be representative, it has to include people from the non-forum going group, first-time MMO players etc. That isn't done here.
Correct. My point is that it can't be taken as representative of the entire playerbase - while if you look back, that's exactly what a few people (not the OP) have been doing.
Not population .
Please, if you're going to post "You're wrong", have the common sense to read back to what I'm responding to.
no no, i agree with you, and wasnt saying youre wrong as such, just pointing out that it is a valid sample as far as surveys go, just not a very good one for an mmo standpoint. i understand that the forums are only a small percentage of the population (mostly true for mmo's) so any sample taken on the forums cannot strictly be called a definitive viewpoint of what the game community wants. but any sample taken from here is still a valid one was my point.
to get a true survey they need to poll people on login to the game, and have a survey on the forums, to ensure they catch everyone. with account holders only able to vote in one or the other (but even that could be skewed by multiple account holders mind you...)
like i said i wasnt trying to push you over, was merely pointing out that even in a minority its still a valid sample, just not the best one to have for this game
...like i said i wasnt trying to push you over, was merely pointing out that even in a minority its still a valid sample, just not the best one to have for this game
Then you understand why your post was completely out of context? Good.
See thats the thing, I think that a DP does add to the gameplay experience imo...firstly it makes you think about the consequences of your actions.
It adds to your experience, maybe, but every DP I've seen yet detracts from mine (if it does anything at all - most of 'em are just petty annoyances). I really don't need a hickory stick to "think about the consequences of my actions."
Secondly, if Science officers and crafters were able to make consumables to remove and penalty from death, that would also add to their game experience...
Would it? Grinding out consumables that nullify the effect of DPs (and thus the means of making people think about the consequences of their actions) would actually add to people's game experiences?
Even if the answer is "yes," consider that you'd have a new balancing act - the death penalty would be tied into crafting, and, thus, the player economy, so a change to, say, difficulty level would ripple through everyone's gameplay in unanticipated and possibly unfavorable ways.
I cannot think of any MMORPG without a DP and its a constant wonder to me why there is such a resistence to it in this game.
Can't speak for anyone else, but this actually highlights one reason I resist it. Saying "everyone else does it" isn't really an argument, and speaks to a general problem with MMOs and player expectations. MMO designers throw in features because players expect it, or are used to it, or can't conceive of a game without it - so we get things like half-arsed crafting systems or arena-only PvP just for the sake of having crafting and PvP.
If we're going to have a DP, I'd like to know that 1) it's supposed to serve an in-game purpose other than satisfying player expectations, 2) it actually does serve the stated purpose, and 3) it serves the purpose better than other available mechanics could. If it can do so while still being true to the setting, so much the better. But I haven't seen any proposed DPs that satisfy all these points for all stated purposes of having a DP.
As a result, I'd bet we'll get a weak, wimpy, annoying, anti-setting DP that won't really do anything for anyone. Just to have one. Because everyone else has one.
It adds to your experience, maybe, but every DP I've seen yet detracts from mine (if it does anything at all - most of 'em are just petty annoyances). I really don't need a hickory stick to "think about the consequences of my actions."
I asked questions to get answers. You gave none. Thanks.
What wasn't answered? If you are unable to determine that others are not playing to your liking, I don't know what to tell you.
Also, "3 - No-ones being forced to play zerg. It's just really annoying have a team of 5, 4 of which decide to kamikaze rather than play as a team. " is not a question.
I'm more than happy to show you how to find/run teams of people that play like you want to.
1 - You weren't the person who was meant to respond.
2 - The biggest problem I've seen, and this is across all MMOs I've played, is people don't want to stop and discuss tactics. They'll either 'rush/zerg' or quit, which in the PuG context is not helpful either way.
If you are unable to determine...
Already mentioned about that. Don't make assumptions.
I'm more than happy to show you how to find/run teams of people that play like you want to.
I'm sure you are, but you're not the person who turned around and said that they had a 100% guaranteed way to never group with "zerg"ing individuals.
Then you understand why your post was completely out of context? Good.
*sigh* no it wasnt completely out of context. you said it wasnt a valid sample, i said it was because thats the way surveys work. just not a very good sample for an mmo. the vote is still valid, just not an accurate overview of the entire playerbase. the sample itself is still valid,
even if the sample is taken from a minority its still valid, they do it all the time for important surveys worldwide. thats all i was trying to get across. you cant throw out a sample simply because you dont agree with it. its not a good overview of the playerbase in totality, but its an overview all the same. forum users are still players
See thats the thing, I think that a DP does add to the gameplay experience imo...firstly it makes you think about the consequences of your actions.
Wanted to key in on this part here...
It forces you to think about the consequences of your actions. It does not force others toward better team play as many will just save themselves with buffs/enemy debuffs long before they'll lift a finger to help anyone else.
Right now, if you and I were teamed up, I'd throw you the Science Team II if your shields needed it or whatever other buff I can because I want to and that's how I play.
If a DP is added where if I'm defeated and it's going to cost me time/money to repair/re-equip my ship, guess who is going to get my science buffs?
*sigh* no it wasnt completely out of context. you said it wasnt a valid sample
I said it wasn't valid in the context of the entire playerbase (which was the claim I was arguing against), I did not say it was not a valid sample for this forum.
The forum-viewers and posters are a minority group within the population - they are not representative of the whole.
The drugs trials are done on samples of the target group.
Try to apply that here, the target 'group' is the entire player-base of STO. For the sample to be representative, it has to include people from the non-forum going group, first-time MMO players etc. That isn't done here.
Correct. My point is that it can't be taken as representative of the entire playerbase - while if you look back, that's exactly what a few people (not the OP) have been doing.
Not population .
Please, if you're going to post "You're wrong", have the common sense to read back to what I'm responding to.
any poll wether in politics or otherwise only samples a minority of the population. and they're good enough for people like cnn to report on.
the fact of the matter is, this poll is representative of forum goers. it has a minority of a minority. the larger minority being people that actually visit the forums, the smaller minority being the people that actually care enough about the issue to read and post on teh thread in question.
now if you dig into the forums and check forum polls on the issue, you'll find that PRO DP people will defend polls that give them the majority of those responded when the questions are less clear, divide the vote in their favour and are only 2-5 pages long and are filled with people discussing the poll.
hell i did an in game survey with only 4 responding in one out around five sector blocks and PRO DP took it as a valid poll that showed 100% of players wanted a DP.
so what it comes down to is when the poll question is biased in favour of PRO DP people and or shows a majority in favour of DP increase, PRO DP people say it's valid and shows that the community wants a DP, but when a poll is less biased in the question and or shows a majority of forum goers who care in favour of the status quo, PRO DP ppl say th epoll is bisaed and not accurate and too small a sample size - even when it's the longest, oldest thread/poll on the issue.
and when you look at the one or two polls that gave multiple choices as to what kind of DP should be implemented, or even at any one of the DP related threads, you'll find that no one can decide on what kind of DP increase would be too harsh or too lenient.
i would like to see an in game poll that pops up on log in. but some pro DP people have argued against this.
i would like to see an in game poll that pops up on log in. but some pro DP people have argued against this.
I'd rather see a poll that samples the entire player-base. And I don't care if people argue against it, as you, I and several others have all pointed out, the other polls are all flawed.
i want to point out that in every other mmo i've ever played, i've had PUGs and even clan/guild groups that never discussed what we were doing- it was assumed that you knew what to do.
hell i've had groups that no one talked for like 8 hours.
i had dungeon PUGs in wow where the only time anyone talked was when the party wiped and everyone decided to blame someone else for it.
in l2 i rarely grouped up with people outside of a few select people, but when i did we rarely discussed strategy before going into a new area. sure if i was in vent with new people and was trying to get them do something they weren't used to i explained how to do it.
in swg my groups might've rped and socialized for the two hours it took to form a group, but when the action started no one talked, and at no time did we talk about the strategy.
in raid groups in wow, sure you're going to teach your guild/regular raid group how to do each encounter. but for PUGs? most people tag along and everyone assume you know what to do.
someone said that his PUGs often don't bring the correct consumables or just suicide(zerg) or at least try to. guess what? this happens in wow and every other mmo i've ever played.
all these examples have a range of DPs, all harsher then STOs, and none of them have stopped anyone from doing what the PRO DP crowd claim an increased DP in STO will do.
I'd rather see a poll that samples the entire player-base. And I don't care if people argue against it, as you, I and several others have all pointed out, the other polls are all flawed.
wouldn't an in game sample the entire playerbase?
or do you count people that have canceled or just visiting the forums or thinking of playing or quit in beta as the playerbase?
and is a poll in the public forum more valid? because i posted one there and the poll was almost exactly even with 1 or 2 more people voting against increased DP with 62 total votes. PRO DP said it was too simple or wasn't valid or any other number of excuses because it wasn't biased one way or the other. it was ajust a simple increased dp or current DP question.
and which polls are not flawed? the ones that split the status quo vote in your favour? the ones that split the pro dp vote among a variety of confusing and not clearly laid out choices? the ones that end in your favour after only 2-5 pages of discussion and maybe 40 votes tops? the ones on the public forum that non players can vote in? one that is posted on the front page that even fewer people visit and few people know about until someone posts on the forums "HEY FREE CRYPTIC POINTS!"
what would satisfy your unreasonable demands?
what would make you believe that a status quo majority poll wasn't biased or unfair in some way? and what makes them more unfair or biased then polls that go your way?
this particular thread was made in demands from PRO DP ppl that said that the majority of people wanted a DP. so the OP made a poll to find out if that was true.
i know i know, you want a poll that would be to the effect of are you republican? are you conservative democrat? liberal democrat? moderate democrat? and declaring a majority of people republican based on the results. and one that had a higher respondent rate than any election in the west has had in decade if not centuries.
If you misinterpreted what I said, and I can see why that'd be easy..
An In-game poll is the best solution, yes.
what would satisfy your unreasonable demands?
You lot are unreasonable. Ask questions, but don't make stupid assumptions.
The OP also said this poll wouldn't actually represent the entire player-base.
EDIT:
Allow me to make this clear for you, I think an IN GAME poll, sampling the ENTIRE PLAYERBASE and not just the forum-browsing minority is the best solution.
This thread 'poll', which sampled the forum-browsing minority cannot be used to claim the majority view.
Anything else is your own paranoia:
- I never said the majority wanted DP.
- I never claimed nor said I believed it.
If you misinterpreted what I said, and I can see why that'd be easy..
An In-game poll is the best solution, yes.
You lot are unreasonable. Ask questions, but don't make stupid assumptions.
The OP also said this poll wouldn't actually represent the entire player-base.
EDIT:
Allow me to make this clear for you, I think an IN GAME poll, sampling the ENTIRE PLAYERBASE and not just the forum-browsing minority is the best solution.
This thread 'poll', which sampled the forum-browsing minority cannot be used to claim the majority view.
Anything else is your own paranoia:
- I never said the majority wanted DP.
- I never claimed nor said I believed it.
you said you'd "rather see..." when i said i wanted an in game poll.
we aren't making assumptions at all. this is based on the posts in this thread and half of threads on this subject since OB. you jumped in the end of this thread and are making assumptions here.
we know the forum going players are a minority of the playerbase. we've pointed it out several times in this thread alone. we also know that real world polls only sample a minority of the target audience.
my paranoia? lolz.
you yourself may not have said it, i didn't say YOU, it's a fairly popular "argument" from the pro DP crowd. unless YOU speak for the whole pro DP crowd now?
i'm glad you don't claim nor believe that you are in the majority. you are a minority of your side of the issue.
i was trying to bring YOU up to date on the issue, of DP and polls. YOU seemed to be ignorant of what has passed before on this issue.
you said you'd "rather see..." when i said i wanted an in game poll.
Yeah, that's the part I worded poorly.
we aren't making assumptions at all.
what would satisfy your unreasonable demands?
what would make you believe that a status quo majority poll wasn't biased or unfair in some way? and what makes them more unfair or biased then polls that go your way?
You're not?
you jumped in the end of this thread
I've been in this one since the start.
my paranoia? lolz.
See above.
YOU seemed to be ignorant of what has passed before on this issue.
What I said that sparked this little piece of **** argument was taken out of context, and continued to run with people refusing to take note.
As I said, one person in particular said this poll was 60% against, 40% for a DP, and that it represented the 'entire' playerbase. I set about telling how wrong they were. People jumped on me - by taking my post very much out of context.
At least not until cryptic gets on the ball and fixes the fleet actions so that every enemy concentrates fire on the first ship to get in range.
Hello there Soupgoblin, this issue has been addressed and fixed in the latest patch for the Tribble Server, check out the sneak peak notes in the Tribble Server section of the forums.
I assume you are pointing out where it says they are "tuning" several fleet instances? Hopefully they will post better details on the patch in the near future.
That could also be referring to fixing the issue but I can't be sure, I accidently mislead you to the wrong section of the Tribble forums, the following is quoted from the Tribble Release Notes - March 10, 2010 thread, and addresses some issues relevent to a DP.
What I said that sparked this little piece of **** argument was taken out of context, and continued to run with people refusing to take note.
As I said, one person in particular said this poll was 60% against, 40% for a DP, and that it represented the 'entire' playerbase. I set about telling how wrong they were. People jumped on me - by taking my post very much out of context.
forgive me but i've only seen you post in the last several pages of this thread.
and your beef seems to be that this thread is unfair and biased etc.
and this poll does represent the ENTIRE playerbase. at least more so than any other poll on the subject. you don't have to be an expert on polling protocols to realize that.
your argument that this poll does not represent the ENTIRE player base in taken into an analogy would be that election results in western countries do not represent the ENTIRE population of those countries due to poor turn out and having to register to vote.
it's a small sample size, yes, and in game poll that had to be filled out would be best yes. if you really had followed this thread and the various threads on the subject for at least since the polling issue came up near launch, then you'd know that that's what the ANTI DP people want. and that this has been shot down by a dev as being "unfair". mind you that dev works in the art dept and may not have been speaking as someone who has authority on the subject, but it was under his dev account.
if you wish to demonstrate ignorance on the subject some more while claiming to be to have been here all along then be my guest.
There's a lot more, but from what I could see, what I have quoted is more relevent to a DP then anything else.
I agree, and it is pointing to what all the disenfranchised WoW/Eve players wanted... damage/destruction of equipment that will have to be paid for to fix or replaced entirely.
Good luck trying to find people who are willing to work together on missions if that is the case. It will go from zergfesting to every player for themselves in terms of buffs.
I agree, and it is pointing to what all the disenfranchised WoW/Eve players wanted... damage/destruction of equipment that will have to be paid for to fix or replaced entirely.
i don't see that from what he quoted.
are you getting this info from somewhere else? link or quote plz?
forgive me but i've only seen you post in the last several pages of this thread.
...
and your beef seems to be that this thread is unfair and biased etc.
Stop there. You've not read what I'm saying, you've made an assumption.
I've been pointing out the flaws of the poll, yes. my point of contention are the people who take this to represent the entire community when it's already been pointed out by quite a few people it doesn't.
and this poll does represent the ENTIRE playerbase. at least more so than any other poll on the subject. you don't have to be an expert on polling protocols to realize that.
I refute the first sentence because the first sentence implies that the proportions are the same in game and on the forums. They're usually not. (btw, I did media studies and this came up)
"At least more so" is another falsehood.
Continue to troll and harass me if you wish. It doesn't change the fact this poll, AS STATED BY THE OP:
Comments
Same here. Sadly, I will bet real money this is the direction they will go with it. Some seem to think there is a need for massive time and currency sinks in the game, so Cryptic can kill 2 birds with 1 stone with a DP. It's unfortunate that you sift through posts here with people suggesting "innovations" and "new types of gameplay", yet want the same stale and boring features (DP) that lend nothing to the gameplay experience.
Actually, there have been (very few) pro-DPs that want it.
This may sound crazy but, how about NOT teaming with people who want to play differently than you do? I know that may sound insane, but you know what? It works perfectly 100% of the time.
Also, who is forcing anyone to zerg? The game is not, the individual players themselves are.
1 - How do you, when pugging, determine who's going to want to play differently?
2 - Assuming that doesn't work, do you mean team off auto-teaming?
3 - No-ones being forced to play zerg. It's just really annoying have a team of 5, 4 of which decide to kamikaze rather than play as a team.
Ok, that's actually rare, usually it's only 1 of the team. But that's still very annoying when the team has more than enough firepower and diversity to do the mission without anyone's shields failing.
See thats the thing, I think that a DP does add to the gameplay experience imo...firstly it makes you think about the consequences of your actions.
Secondly, if Science officers and crafters were able to make consumables to remove and penalty from death, that would also add to their game experience...I cannot think of any MMORPG without a DP and its a constant wonder to me why there is such a resistence to it in this game.
Whilst I used to be a hardcore MMORPG player, these days I am deffo a casual as wife / kids / job prevent me from spending more than a couple of nights a week gaming....I would still rather have a DP than not.
Heck even single player games have a DP, such as loss of progress or being reset to the last checkpoint / save or whatver....
Driz00
umm a lot of drugs (legal ones :P) hit the market after small samples of the population show them as safe. 2 years later 30 people die
just about every survey out there that claims viable statistics has a small sample size. yet it is still taken in consideration.
not trying to deliberately knock you off your perch here, and when it comes to games forums i believe all players should be polled, but that statement of yours is not correct as it stands. the poll may be skewed due to who does and doesnt come to the forum, but that doesnt make it an illegitimate poll. its just that the sample isnt really a good one in terms of what the whole playerbase wants, although as a sample of the population it still succeeds at being valid.
You miss the point.
The forum-viewers and posters are a minority group within the population - they are not representative of the whole.
The drugs trials are done on samples of the target group.
Try to apply that here, the target 'group' is the entire player-base of STO. For the sample to be representative, it has to include people from the non-forum going group, first-time MMO players etc. That isn't done here.
Correct. My point is that it can't be taken as representative of the entire playerbase - while if you look back, that's exactly what a few people (not the OP) have been doing.
Not population
Please, if you're going to post "You're wrong", have the common sense to read back to what I'm responding to.
Is it really that difficult for you?
How about saying "hello" in team chat to start up a conversation? Discuss strategy with the other player(s)? For example, I like to take my time between objectives in missions. I don't full impulse zerg from one enemy squadron to the next. If I'm auto teamed and the others are doing that, I'll leave the team and do the mission myself at my pace.
See above.
What's stopping you from leaving that team? Drop it and go on your merry way. Use the chat channels to advertise for teammates and let them know how you like to do things. LEAD the team instead of just zoning in and complaining that no one listens and just zergs. Put some EFFORT into doing that and you will eventually find like-minded players. It's so easy to do these things.
and
I've seen this argument mentioned numerous times now and in my mind it fails completely. A DP is not going to force anyone to help with buffs/debuffs. All it will do is cause bad players to become more focused on staying alive themselves to avoid the penalty than they will focus on helping you or the rest of your team.
Use in-game chat and the forums here to find players with a similar playstyle as you. A monkey can do it it's so easy.
Last I checked, this is what STO does so by this definition, it has a DP.
So it's not 100% success. :rolleyes:
Nothing stops me (or others) leaving or leading a team. Since so many missions can be completed solo anyway, it's not a problem. I love all the assumptions you, and others, make when asked questions. It speaks a lot about you.
I asked questions to get answers. You gave none. Thanks.
no no, i agree with you, and wasnt saying youre wrong as such, just pointing out that it is a valid sample as far as surveys go, just not a very good one for an mmo standpoint. i understand that the forums are only a small percentage of the population (mostly true for mmo's) so any sample taken on the forums cannot strictly be called a definitive viewpoint of what the game community wants. but any sample taken from here is still a valid one was my point.
to get a true survey they need to poll people on login to the game, and have a survey on the forums, to ensure they catch everyone. with account holders only able to vote in one or the other (but even that could be skewed by multiple account holders mind you...)
like i said i wasnt trying to push you over, was merely pointing out that even in a minority its still a valid sample, just not the best one to have for this game
Then you understand why your post was completely out of context? Good.
Even if the answer is "yes," consider that you'd have a new balancing act - the death penalty would be tied into crafting, and, thus, the player economy, so a change to, say, difficulty level would ripple through everyone's gameplay in unanticipated and possibly unfavorable ways. Can't speak for anyone else, but this actually highlights one reason I resist it. Saying "everyone else does it" isn't really an argument, and speaks to a general problem with MMOs and player expectations. MMO designers throw in features because players expect it, or are used to it, or can't conceive of a game without it - so we get things like half-arsed crafting systems or arena-only PvP just for the sake of having crafting and PvP.
If we're going to have a DP, I'd like to know that 1) it's supposed to serve an in-game purpose other than satisfying player expectations, 2) it actually does serve the stated purpose, and 3) it serves the purpose better than other available mechanics could. If it can do so while still being true to the setting, so much the better. But I haven't seen any proposed DPs that satisfy all these points for all stated purposes of having a DP.
As a result, I'd bet we'll get a weak, wimpy, annoying, anti-setting DP that won't really do anything for anyone. Just to have one. Because everyone else has one.
Genuine question - which games?
What wasn't answered? If you are unable to determine that others are not playing to your liking, I don't know what to tell you.
Also, "3 - No-ones being forced to play zerg. It's just really annoying have a team of 5, 4 of which decide to kamikaze rather than play as a team. " is not a question.
I'm more than happy to show you how to find/run teams of people that play like you want to.
1 - You weren't the person who was meant to respond.
2 - The biggest problem I've seen, and this is across all MMOs I've played, is people don't want to stop and discuss tactics. They'll either 'rush/zerg' or quit, which in the PuG context is not helpful either way.
Already mentioned about that. Don't make assumptions.
I'm sure you are, but you're not the person who turned around and said that they had a 100% guaranteed way to never group with "zerg"ing individuals.
*sigh* no it wasnt completely out of context. you said it wasnt a valid sample, i said it was because thats the way surveys work. just not a very good sample for an mmo. the vote is still valid, just not an accurate overview of the entire playerbase. the sample itself is still valid,
even if the sample is taken from a minority its still valid, they do it all the time for important surveys worldwide. thats all i was trying to get across. you cant throw out a sample simply because you dont agree with it. its not a good overview of the playerbase in totality, but its an overview all the same. forum users are still players
Wanted to key in on this part here...
It forces you to think about the consequences of your actions. It does not force others toward better team play as many will just save themselves with buffs/enemy debuffs long before they'll lift a finger to help anyone else.
Right now, if you and I were teamed up, I'd throw you the Science Team II if your shields needed it or whatever other buff I can because I want to and that's how I play.
If a DP is added where if I'm defeated and it's going to cost me time/money to repair/re-equip my ship, guess who is going to get my science buffs?
I said it wasn't valid in the context of the entire playerbase (which was the claim I was arguing against), I did not say it was not a valid sample for this forum.
any poll wether in politics or otherwise only samples a minority of the population. and they're good enough for people like cnn to report on.
the fact of the matter is, this poll is representative of forum goers. it has a minority of a minority. the larger minority being people that actually visit the forums, the smaller minority being the people that actually care enough about the issue to read and post on teh thread in question.
now if you dig into the forums and check forum polls on the issue, you'll find that PRO DP people will defend polls that give them the majority of those responded when the questions are less clear, divide the vote in their favour and are only 2-5 pages long and are filled with people discussing the poll.
hell i did an in game survey with only 4 responding in one out around five sector blocks and PRO DP took it as a valid poll that showed 100% of players wanted a DP.
so what it comes down to is when the poll question is biased in favour of PRO DP people and or shows a majority in favour of DP increase, PRO DP people say it's valid and shows that the community wants a DP, but when a poll is less biased in the question and or shows a majority of forum goers who care in favour of the status quo, PRO DP ppl say th epoll is bisaed and not accurate and too small a sample size - even when it's the longest, oldest thread/poll on the issue.
and when you look at the one or two polls that gave multiple choices as to what kind of DP should be implemented, or even at any one of the DP related threads, you'll find that no one can decide on what kind of DP increase would be too harsh or too lenient.
i would like to see an in game poll that pops up on log in. but some pro DP people have argued against this.
We've been over this...
I'd rather see a poll that samples the entire player-base. And I don't care if people argue against it, as you, I and several others have all pointed out, the other polls are all flawed.
hell i've had groups that no one talked for like 8 hours.
i had dungeon PUGs in wow where the only time anyone talked was when the party wiped and everyone decided to blame someone else for it.
in l2 i rarely grouped up with people outside of a few select people, but when i did we rarely discussed strategy before going into a new area. sure if i was in vent with new people and was trying to get them do something they weren't used to i explained how to do it.
in swg my groups might've rped and socialized for the two hours it took to form a group, but when the action started no one talked, and at no time did we talk about the strategy.
in raid groups in wow, sure you're going to teach your guild/regular raid group how to do each encounter. but for PUGs? most people tag along and everyone assume you know what to do.
someone said that his PUGs often don't bring the correct consumables or just suicide(zerg) or at least try to. guess what? this happens in wow and every other mmo i've ever played.
all these examples have a range of DPs, all harsher then STOs, and none of them have stopped anyone from doing what the PRO DP crowd claim an increased DP in STO will do.
wouldn't an in game sample the entire playerbase?
or do you count people that have canceled or just visiting the forums or thinking of playing or quit in beta as the playerbase?
and is a poll in the public forum more valid? because i posted one there and the poll was almost exactly even with 1 or 2 more people voting against increased DP with 62 total votes. PRO DP said it was too simple or wasn't valid or any other number of excuses because it wasn't biased one way or the other. it was ajust a simple increased dp or current DP question.
and which polls are not flawed? the ones that split the status quo vote in your favour? the ones that split the pro dp vote among a variety of confusing and not clearly laid out choices? the ones that end in your favour after only 2-5 pages of discussion and maybe 40 votes tops? the ones on the public forum that non players can vote in? one that is posted on the front page that even fewer people visit and few people know about until someone posts on the forums "HEY FREE CRYPTIC POINTS!"
what would satisfy your unreasonable demands?
what would make you believe that a status quo majority poll wasn't biased or unfair in some way? and what makes them more unfair or biased then polls that go your way?
this particular thread was made in demands from PRO DP ppl that said that the majority of people wanted a DP. so the OP made a poll to find out if that was true.
i know i know, you want a poll that would be to the effect of are you republican? are you conservative democrat? liberal democrat? moderate democrat? and declaring a majority of people republican based on the results. and one that had a higher respondent rate than any election in the west has had in decade if not centuries.
/facepalm
Exactly.
If you misinterpreted what I said, and I can see why that'd be easy..
An In-game poll is the best solution, yes.
You lot are unreasonable. Ask questions, but don't make stupid assumptions.
The OP also said this poll wouldn't actually represent the entire player-base.
EDIT:
Allow me to make this clear for you, I think an IN GAME poll, sampling the ENTIRE PLAYERBASE and not just the forum-browsing minority is the best solution.
This thread 'poll', which sampled the forum-browsing minority cannot be used to claim the majority view.
Anything else is your own paranoia:
- I never said the majority wanted DP.
- I never claimed nor said I believed it.
we aren't making assumptions at all. this is based on the posts in this thread and half of threads on this subject since OB. you jumped in the end of this thread and are making assumptions here.
we know the forum going players are a minority of the playerbase. we've pointed it out several times in this thread alone. we also know that real world polls only sample a minority of the target audience.
my paranoia? lolz.
you yourself may not have said it, i didn't say YOU, it's a fairly popular "argument" from the pro DP crowd. unless YOU speak for the whole pro DP crowd now?
i'm glad you don't claim nor believe that you are in the majority. you are a minority of your side of the issue.
i was trying to bring YOU up to date on the issue, of DP and polls. YOU seemed to be ignorant of what has passed before on this issue.
Yeah, that's the part I worded poorly.
You're not?
I've been in this one since the start.
See above.
What I said that sparked this little piece of **** argument was taken out of context, and continued to run with people refusing to take note.
As I said, one person in particular said this poll was 60% against, 40% for a DP, and that it represented the 'entire' playerbase. I set about telling how wrong they were. People jumped on me - by taking my post very much out of context.
Previously within the POLL: Death Penalty thread...
That could also be referring to fixing the issue but I can't be sure, I accidently mislead you to the wrong section of the Tribble forums, the following is quoted from the Tribble Release Notes - March 10, 2010 thread, and addresses some issues relevent to a DP.
There's a lot more, but from what I could see, what I have quoted is more relevent to a DP then anything else.
forgive me but i've only seen you post in the last several pages of this thread.
and your beef seems to be that this thread is unfair and biased etc.
and this poll does represent the ENTIRE playerbase. at least more so than any other poll on the subject. you don't have to be an expert on polling protocols to realize that.
your argument that this poll does not represent the ENTIRE player base in taken into an analogy would be that election results in western countries do not represent the ENTIRE population of those countries due to poor turn out and having to register to vote.
it's a small sample size, yes, and in game poll that had to be filled out would be best yes. if you really had followed this thread and the various threads on the subject for at least since the polling issue came up near launch, then you'd know that that's what the ANTI DP people want. and that this has been shot down by a dev as being "unfair". mind you that dev works in the art dept and may not have been speaking as someone who has authority on the subject, but it was under his dev account.
if you wish to demonstrate ignorance on the subject some more while claiming to be to have been here all along then be my guest.
I agree, and it is pointing to what all the disenfranchised WoW/Eve players wanted... damage/destruction of equipment that will have to be paid for to fix or replaced entirely.
Good luck trying to find people who are willing to work together on missions if that is the case. It will go from zergfesting to every player for themselves in terms of buffs.
i don't see that from what he quoted.
are you getting this info from somewhere else? link or quote plz?
...
Stop there. You've not read what I'm saying, you've made an assumption.
I've been pointing out the flaws of the poll, yes. my point of contention are the people who take this to represent the entire community when it's already been pointed out by quite a few people it doesn't.
I refute the first sentence because the first sentence implies that the proportions are the same in game and on the forums. They're usually not. (btw, I did media studies and this came up)
"At least more so" is another falsehood.
Continue to troll and harass me if you wish. It doesn't change the fact this poll, AS STATED BY THE OP: