That was an interesting episode, but the issue I have is that they went back to 1996, which should have been in the middle of the Eugenics Wars, but there didn't seem to be any issues there involving those events. So then one has to ponder if Voyager is in a separate timline than ST:TOS.
No, ST:V and ST:TOS are in the same timeline. As much as I hate to reference books when dealing with issues of canon, I'll point you toward the Eugenics wars books which are a phenomenal read. They show how easily the EW can fit into todays society w/o having caused enough of a rukus for us to recognize them for what they were.
Of course it is possible taht while ST:V is normally in the same timeline, that the events of that episode threw them into an alternate because of the tech that went back to the 60s (I think it was the 60s). Upon correting the timeline they were then shunted back into their proper quantum reality.
How does it fit with what we know? Other than a novel I can't think of a reference that VGR was sent by the borg. Remember novels are not canon and thus don't count.
There is one line in TMP that I find fascinating. Rmember, when Spock was having all those mental connections with VGer going? He was sitting on the bridge and something was mentioned about attempting to actually fight it, Spock says no "Because resistance... would be futile."
Yes, innocuous enough that it doesnt prove a thing, but as that line went on to basically define the Borg later on... and, as we know, TMP was based on unused scripts for Star Trek Phase 2, and said scripts also went on to influence TNG... it may not have been a conscious design decision at the time, but I think its safe to say in the minds of Roddenberry and the other creators the two ideas were at the very least linked in as much as their inspiration.
There is one line in TMP that I find fascinating. Rmember, when Spock was having all those mental connections with VGer going? He was sitting on the bridge and something was mentioned about attempting to actually fight it, Spock says no "Because resistance... would be futile."
Yes, innocuous enough that it doesnt prove a thing, but as that line went on to basically define the Borg later on... and, as we know, TMP was based on unused scripts for Star Trek Phase 2, and said scripts also went on to influence TNG... it may not have been a conscious design decision at the time, but I think its safe to say in the minds of Roddenberry and the other creators the two ideas were at the very least linked in as much as their inspiration.
Imma have to go back and rewatch that movie now. . .damn you!
I try to forget the Motion Picture. I thought Spock's part was prety good, but the rest of the movie was terrible. Sometimes I call it ST the Motion-less Picture. (runs for cover)
Another mystery is, how did the Millennium Falcon end up fighting the Borg during the events of Star Trek First Contact? As well as the events of The Battle of Sector 001?
The Millennium Falcon was in ST?
I remeber a ship that kind of looked like the Millennium Falcon in the First Congact, but I think that was the second Defiant.
I try to forget the Motion Picture. I thought Spock's part was prety good, but the rest of the movie was terrible. Sometimes I call it ST the Motion-less Picture. (runs for cover)
WHAAAT !?!?!
:::Anger building to mass Star Trek fan anger! :::
( Okay, although I like the movie for other reasons, it could've used some work. It probably was better for presentation as an hour-long episode instead of a full feature film, story wise; wherin they filled the gaps with pretty pictures.
Still, i consider it better than... Star Trek 5 (well...maybe not; I flucuate on that) and Star Trek Nemesis.)
:::Anger building to mass Star Trek fan anger! :::
( Okay, although I like the movie for other reasons, it could've used some work. It probably was better for presentation as an hour-long episode instead of a full feature film, story wise; wherin they filled the gaps with pretty pictures.
Still, i consider it better than... Star Trek 5 (well...maybe not; I flucuate on that) and Star Trek Nemesis.)
(Starts to builld a large baricade to hide in for all eternity)
I havn't seen ST 5 yet, but Nemesis was pretty bad also. Defenatly not as good as the First Contact. I just thoght that it seemed too over dramatised. A good example of this is the scene where it takes Kirk about 10 minuets for the shuttle to get to the Enterprise. Or the part where they are moving in slow motion to blow up the asteroid. ect.
I was watching it with my parents the first time I watched it and both of them fell asleep. Now I have to beg them to watch anything from the Origional Series or from the first 6 movies because they think it is going to be like the motion picture.
The problem with the theories about Kirk's, Picard's or whoever's interfereance in past timelines influencing the creation of the "Mirror Universe" alternate reality is that most or all of those changes would have been confined to Earth. It would not account for changes in the timeline occuring on other planets. For example, Mirror Klingons and Romulans never developed cloaking technology. Or the Klingons never once managed to capture and study a Romulan cloak, despite this being highly unlikely. Everyone involved seemed flabbergasted that such a device could even exist when the idea came up in the DS9 episode where Quark and Rom had to steal one for Mirror Worf.
(Starts to builld a large baricade to hide in for all eternity)
I havn't seen ST 5 yet, but Nemesis was pretty bad also. Defenatly not as good as the First Contact. I just thoght that it seemed too over dramatised. A good example of this is the scene where it takes Kirk about 10 minuets for the shuttle to get to the Enterprise. Or the part where they are moving in slow motion to blow up the asteroid. ect.
I was watching it with my parents the first time I watched it and both of them fell asleep. Now I have to beg them to watch anything from the Origional Series or from the first 6 movies because they think it is going to be like the motion picture.
You REALLY should pop in "Wrath of Khan". That will keep most ANYONE awake.
IMO, it is hard to find a very good story fit for a Star Trek movie. "First Contact" had the action, I agree, but I also kept thinking, "Wouldn't this work better as a TV episode of about an hour?" Same thing with TMP and some of the other movies, both TNG and TOS-side. I won't say the stories are terrible, but most do have those "pver-dramatizing" parts you mention and would be better condensed into a season dinale/season Intro storyline than a full-fledged movie.
If books are canon, then the crew of the Enterprise meets up with the X-Men.
I kid you not. They even talk about how Picard and Xavier look like each other.
Is that the same one where the also encounter the Shi'ar Imperial Guard, and Gladiator flies up to the Enterprise and punches it. As the bridge shakes, Picard turns to Worf and asks "Did he just punch my ship?"
Is cannonical star trek time travel based on Quantum mechanics, i.e. when you go back in time you enter a parallel universe indistinguishable from your own up until the poit of your arrival, at which point the timeline branches off into a new, seprate reality that has no effect on your original timeline/reality (Abrams) or is time travel restricted to a singular timeline, to which drastic changes can be made (a la Back to the Future, many ST episodes). Are both forms of time travel valid, and if so what are the dynamics of interaction between alternate and present realities. Is the mirror universe considered on of these realities or is what we know as the mirror universe merelly a different subset of realities branching off an inverse prime universe. (It is regarded that the Mirror universe mirrors or own up to the point of the Romans). How do time altering but not time traveling practices interact with the quantum/linear timeline? When you re materialize in transporter beam, do you remember being killed?
The problem with the theories about Kirk's, Picard's or whoever's interfereance in past timelines influencing the creation of the "Mirror Universe" alternate reality is that most or all of those changes would have been confined to Earth. It would not account for changes in the timeline occuring on other planets. For example, Mirror Klingons and Romulans never developed cloaking technology. Or the Klingons never once managed to capture and study a Romulan cloak, despite this being highly unlikely. Everyone involved seemed flabbergasted that such a device could even exist when the idea came up in the DS9 episode where Quark and Rom had to steal one for Mirror Worf.
Correct!
Totally agree! Gold Star from me!
Most try to simplify an answer to something that is more complex than first glance.
I mean, what ARE the Klingons like in this universe? Or the Romulans? Do they wear pink and trade in "Hello Kitty" merchandise?
What about the Ferenghi? Are the the ultimate in "Billionaire phillanthropics" of the Mirror Universe? Spoiled rich kids? Slaves to fashion?
Too many variables covering too many other species that do not center around humanity.
But, that is sorta a "Trek curse" in my view. The "Enterprise" from TOS (and TNG) always was number one. It ALWAYS did everything. We barely heard of other Starfleet ships doing anything. One wonders if they all parked themselves at the Donut-making planet and ate their fill while waiting for the "Enterprise" to make the newest discovery. (Of course, I am exxagerating, but not by much).
This kinda view tends to cover "humanity" as well. There is nothing wrong about writers making humans feel good about their..."manifest destiny" in the universe, but it IS good to be humble. There ARE other races out there that ARE doing their thing and may be as important as humans. To be fair (and equals in race and other things) these stories should be made. IMO, it encourages acceptance of not only your fellow man, but in the future, when we really DO meet aliens. Maybe I am a bit "non-conformance" to what the average Sci-Fi fan feels, but I think SHARING discoveries and stories about a multitude of races is more interesting (and makes me feel I can identify with it) than some of the Trek stories of every episode of, "Well, we discovered an important new race that no other ship has."
I am pretty sure I lost some of you readers and others may not understand my thought process, but I hope some of you do.
You REALLY should pop in "Wrath of Khan". That will keep most ANYONE awake.
IMO, it is hard to find a very good story fit for a Star Trek movie. "First Contact" had the action, I agree, but I also kept thinking, "Wouldn't this work better as a TV episode of about an hour?" Same thing with TMP and some of the other movies, both TNG and TOS-side. I won't say the stories are terrible, but most do have those "pver-dramatizing" parts you mention and would be better condensed into a season dinale/season Intro storyline than a full-fledged movie.
But that's my movie-senses talking.
My Dad refused to watch the Wrath of Khan, but my Mom thought it was ok. I thought it was GREAT!!!!!! The person that plaid Khan was perfect for that part. His speaches still give me chills when I watch them.
My Dad refused to watch the Wrath of Khan, but my Mom thought it was ok. I thought it was GREAT!!!!!! The person that plaid Khan was perfect for that part. His speaches still give me chills when I watch them.
It's definately a "guy" movie. One day, you should figure out how to "trick" him to watch it.
It's definately a "guy" movie. One day, you should figure out how to "trick" him to watch it.
I disagree with your assumption that the Wrath of Khan is a "guy" movie, on the basis that I'm a girl and I like the Wrath of Khan. I will have to trick him into watching it at some point. The only problem with this is that he isn't really a ST fan and I don't think he's seen Space Seed. That might be a minor issue.
I disagree with your assumption that the Wrath of Khan is a "guy" movie, on the basis that I'm a girl and I like the Wrath of Khan. I will have to trick him into watching it at some point. The only problem with this is that he isn't really a ST fan and I don't think he's seen Space Seed. That might be a minor issue.
by the tim ehe gets to "THIS is Ceti Alpha 5!" he will never have needed to see space seed, becuse Ricardo "zomgimtalented" Montalban will have shown him what the movie is about by this time
Is cannonical star trek time travel based on Quantum mechanics, i.e. when you go back in time you enter a parallel universe indistinguishable from your own up until the poit of your arrival, at which point the timeline branches off into a new, seprate reality that has no effect on your original timeline/reality (Abrams) or is time travel restricted to a singular timeline, to which drastic changes can be made (a la Back to the Future, many ST episodes). Are both forms of time travel valid, and if so what are the dynamics of interaction between alternate and present realities. Is the mirror universe considered on of these realities or is what we know as the mirror universe merelly a different subset of realities branching off an inverse prime universe. (It is regarded that the Mirror universe mirrors or own up to the point of the Romans). How do time altering but not time traveling practices interact with the quantum/linear timeline? When you re materialize in transporter beam, do you remember being killed?
According to the episode Parallels It's a quantum based multiverse. Each possibility creates it's own universe. There are 250,000 during this episode. If you watch however, more enterprises are popping into existence after this number is stated.
I seem to recall on some MU episode (of which series, I can't really remember...maybe TOS) while the team that got shunted over were looking up info about where the heck they were, they came across some "different" plays by Shakespeare and some other "different" cultural stuff.
What would the Olmipics be like in the time of ST? Would different species come from all over the galixy? It would be interresting to see what sports the Klingons would compeat in for the Olimpics.
I seem to recall on some MU episode (of which series, I can't really remember...maybe TOS) while the team that got shunted over were looking up info about where the heck they were, they came across some "different" plays by Shakespeare and some other "different" cultural stuff.
One question I have is how do the Borg know Latin? "Locutus" is Latin for "having spoken" so did the Borg assimilate someone that knew Latin??? I noticed this when I was translating during school.
Quick answer: yes. Borg assimilate Picard. Borg now know everything Picard knows. Picard knows Latin (he quizes Wes in one episode). Therefore Borg know Latin.
Now a few points regarding time travel and alternate realities.
I am surprised I did not see any mention of The Voyage Home. The crew go back to the eighties to collect whales. Alternate reality creators include (1) Scotty giving that plastics guy the formula to make tranparent alluminum, (2) taking the whales out of their natural time, and (3) taking Gillian out of her natural time.
TNG episode where Worf is bouncing around all kinds of different alternate realities pretty much "proves" (at least in Star Trek) that there are an infinite number of alternate realities. "Canon" just focuses on one.
A few people mentioned All Good Things and what Picard could have done in the way far away past. It was revealed at the end that what Picard saw in the future was not going to happen because it was affected by what Q was doing to him. It is therefore logical to assume that the same can be said about the past.
Now my mystery: How is it logical to assume? It is logical to accept proven facts, and to make decisions based on what past experiences show us what the most likely consequences of these decisions will be, but not to assume.
Now my mystery: How is it logical to assume? It is logical to accept proven facts, and to make decisions based on what past experiences show us what the most likely consequences of these decisions will be, but not to assume.
Great post.
My theory on this is, the writers write what they write. There really is not a "strong bible" for the series anymore. Rodennberry and Berman do not oversee the storytelling anymore.
Gillian has said (in that movie) that no one would miss her. She had no relatives or whatnot. Of course, a writer could easily propose something contrary to that; such as a future romance she did not know about that resulted in marriage or whatever.
"Enterprise", in my opinion (and others), mucked up accepted continuity of the main universe. That is probably one of the main reasons myself (and others) hate it. It changed things so casually and no, it wasn't just because of the time-travel aspect of it (an example being introducing Holodecks...too early....and the Klingons get the tech???) "Enterprise" changed canon/show continuity with a way I do not like, but what of any possible future series or writer? They could either explain it away convincingly or essentially write out the whole of "Enterprise" if they so chose to do so.
My theory on this is, the writers write what they write. There really is not a "strong bible" for the series anymore. Rodennberry and Berman do not oversee the storytelling anymore.
Gillian has said (in that movie) that no one would miss her. She had no relatives or whatnot. Of course, a writer could easily propose something contrary to that; such as a future romance she did not know about that resulted in marriage or whatever.
"Enterprise", in my opinion (and others), mucked up accepted continuity of the main universe. That is probably one of the main reasons myself (and others) hate it. It changed things so casually and no, it wasn't just because of the time-travel aspect of it (an example being introducing Holodecks...too early....and the Klingons get the tech???) "Enterprise" changed canon/show continuity with a way I do not like, but what of any possible future series or writer? They could either explain it away convincingly or essentially write out the whole of "Enterprise" if they so chose to do so.
So, anything can/will happen, timelines or no.
OK, I just got up and have to run so I'm only going to touch two points:
ST:TVH was mentioned, I talked in passing about them going to the eighties. I dismissed it as the split because we know that they planted the Terran flag on the moon in the 60s.
Gillian is the real reason we have a Temporal Prime Directive.
The holodeck on ENT was on an alien ship and it was mentioned that it would be great to have them on board SF ships. It can easily be assumed that it took the next couple of hundred years to design or reverse engineer teh tech to work with our own in a seamless manner.
That is all. I am now going to enjoy the other nerdy part of my life at the ren fest!
Comments
No, ST:V and ST:TOS are in the same timeline. As much as I hate to reference books when dealing with issues of canon, I'll point you toward the Eugenics wars books which are a phenomenal read. They show how easily the EW can fit into todays society w/o having caused enough of a rukus for us to recognize them for what they were.
Of course it is possible taht while ST:V is normally in the same timeline, that the events of that episode threw them into an alternate because of the tech that went back to the 60s (I think it was the 60s). Upon correting the timeline they were then shunted back into their proper quantum reality.
It does fit with what we know.
How does it fit with what we know? Other than a novel I can't think of a reference that VGR was sent by the borg. Remember novels are not canon and thus don't count.
Yes, innocuous enough that it doesnt prove a thing, but as that line went on to basically define the Borg later on... and, as we know, TMP was based on unused scripts for Star Trek Phase 2, and said scripts also went on to influence TNG... it may not have been a conscious design decision at the time, but I think its safe to say in the minds of Roddenberry and the other creators the two ideas were at the very least linked in as much as their inspiration.
Imma have to go back and rewatch that movie now. . .damn you!
If Picard had hair, he wouldn't have been as awesome.
The Millennium Falcon was in ST?
I remeber a ship that kind of looked like the Millennium Falcon in the First Congact, but I think that was the second Defiant.
WHAAAT !?!?!
:::Anger building to mass Star Trek fan anger! :::
( Okay, although I like the movie for other reasons, it could've used some work. It probably was better for presentation as an hour-long episode instead of a full feature film, story wise; wherin they filled the gaps with pretty pictures.
Still, i consider it better than... Star Trek 5 (well...maybe not; I flucuate on that) and Star Trek Nemesis.)
(Starts to builld a large baricade to hide in for all eternity)
I havn't seen ST 5 yet, but Nemesis was pretty bad also. Defenatly not as good as the First Contact. I just thoght that it seemed too over dramatised. A good example of this is the scene where it takes Kirk about 10 minuets for the shuttle to get to the Enterprise. Or the part where they are moving in slow motion to blow up the asteroid. ect.
I was watching it with my parents the first time I watched it and both of them fell asleep. Now I have to beg them to watch anything from the Origional Series or from the first 6 movies because they think it is going to be like the motion picture.
You REALLY should pop in "Wrath of Khan". That will keep most ANYONE awake.
IMO, it is hard to find a very good story fit for a Star Trek movie. "First Contact" had the action, I agree, but I also kept thinking, "Wouldn't this work better as a TV episode of about an hour?" Same thing with TMP and some of the other movies, both TNG and TOS-side. I won't say the stories are terrible, but most do have those "pver-dramatizing" parts you mention and would be better condensed into a season dinale/season Intro storyline than a full-fledged movie.
But that's my movie-senses talking.
Is that the same one where the also encounter the Shi'ar Imperial Guard, and Gladiator flies up to the Enterprise and punches it. As the bridge shakes, Picard turns to Worf and asks "Did he just punch my ship?"
Correct!
Totally agree! Gold Star from me!
Most try to simplify an answer to something that is more complex than first glance.
I mean, what ARE the Klingons like in this universe? Or the Romulans? Do they wear pink and trade in "Hello Kitty" merchandise?
What about the Ferenghi? Are the the ultimate in "Billionaire phillanthropics" of the Mirror Universe? Spoiled rich kids? Slaves to fashion?
Too many variables covering too many other species that do not center around humanity.
But, that is sorta a "Trek curse" in my view. The "Enterprise" from TOS (and TNG) always was number one. It ALWAYS did everything. We barely heard of other Starfleet ships doing anything. One wonders if they all parked themselves at the Donut-making planet and ate their fill while waiting for the "Enterprise" to make the newest discovery. (Of course, I am exxagerating, but not by much).
This kinda view tends to cover "humanity" as well. There is nothing wrong about writers making humans feel good about their..."manifest destiny" in the universe, but it IS good to be humble. There ARE other races out there that ARE doing their thing and may be as important as humans. To be fair (and equals in race and other things) these stories should be made. IMO, it encourages acceptance of not only your fellow man, but in the future, when we really DO meet aliens. Maybe I am a bit "non-conformance" to what the average Sci-Fi fan feels, but I think SHARING discoveries and stories about a multitude of races is more interesting (and makes me feel I can identify with it) than some of the Trek stories of every episode of, "Well, we discovered an important new race that no other ship has."
I am pretty sure I lost some of you readers and others may not understand my thought process, but I hope some of you do.
My Dad refused to watch the Wrath of Khan, but my Mom thought it was ok. I thought it was GREAT!!!!!! The person that plaid Khan was perfect for that part. His speaches still give me chills when I watch them.
It's definately a "guy" movie. One day, you should figure out how to "trick" him to watch it.
I disagree with your assumption that the Wrath of Khan is a "guy" movie, on the basis that I'm a girl and I like the Wrath of Khan. I will have to trick him into watching it at some point. The only problem with this is that he isn't really a ST fan and I don't think he's seen Space Seed. That might be a minor issue.
by the tim ehe gets to "THIS is Ceti Alpha 5!" he will never have needed to see space seed, becuse Ricardo "zomgimtalented" Montalban will have shown him what the movie is about by this time
It was more of a visiual treat by the crew from ILM. But story-wise it was never explained.
Pop some no doz, or at least a red bull or some mountain dew if you do
in Answer to this post ... I give you ... well I give you the TRIBBLE Episode thanks to Voltair:p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvG8rJCRgJ0
p.s. just uploaded this so it may be a min or two before it is viewable
According to the episode Parallels It's a quantum based multiverse. Each possibility creates it's own universe. There are 250,000 during this episode. If you watch however, more enterprises are popping into existence after this number is stated.
I seem to recall on some MU episode (of which series, I can't really remember...maybe TOS) while the team that got shunted over were looking up info about where the heck they were, they came across some "different" plays by Shakespeare and some other "different" cultural stuff.
IIRC that was in "Im a Mirror Darkley" on ST:ENT.
Now a few points regarding time travel and alternate realities.
I am surprised I did not see any mention of The Voyage Home. The crew go back to the eighties to collect whales. Alternate reality creators include (1) Scotty giving that plastics guy the formula to make tranparent alluminum, (2) taking the whales out of their natural time, and (3) taking Gillian out of her natural time.
TNG episode where Worf is bouncing around all kinds of different alternate realities pretty much "proves" (at least in Star Trek) that there are an infinite number of alternate realities. "Canon" just focuses on one.
A few people mentioned All Good Things and what Picard could have done in the way far away past. It was revealed at the end that what Picard saw in the future was not going to happen because it was affected by what Q was doing to him. It is therefore logical to assume that the same can be said about the past.
Now my mystery: How is it logical to assume? It is logical to accept proven facts, and to make decisions based on what past experiences show us what the most likely consequences of these decisions will be, but not to assume.
Great post.
My theory on this is, the writers write what they write. There really is not a "strong bible" for the series anymore. Rodennberry and Berman do not oversee the storytelling anymore.
Gillian has said (in that movie) that no one would miss her. She had no relatives or whatnot. Of course, a writer could easily propose something contrary to that; such as a future romance she did not know about that resulted in marriage or whatever.
"Enterprise", in my opinion (and others), mucked up accepted continuity of the main universe. That is probably one of the main reasons myself (and others) hate it. It changed things so casually and no, it wasn't just because of the time-travel aspect of it (an example being introducing Holodecks...too early....and the Klingons get the tech???) "Enterprise" changed canon/show continuity with a way I do not like, but what of any possible future series or writer? They could either explain it away convincingly or essentially write out the whole of "Enterprise" if they so chose to do so.
So, anything can/will happen, timelines or no.
OK, I just got up and have to run so I'm only going to touch two points:
ST:TVH was mentioned, I talked in passing about them going to the eighties. I dismissed it as the split because we know that they planted the Terran flag on the moon in the 60s.
Gillian is the real reason we have a Temporal Prime Directive.
The holodeck on ENT was on an alien ship and it was mentioned that it would be great to have them on board SF ships. It can easily be assumed that it took the next couple of hundred years to design or reverse engineer teh tech to work with our own in a seamless manner.
That is all. I am now going to enjoy the other nerdy part of my life at the ren fest!