If memory serves correctly that there was an Enterprise episode that dealt with the aftereffects of First Contact. Apprently some people discovered Borg (although they didn't know it was Borg obvisouly). those people managed to get themselves assimilated. The assimilated people cobbled a ship together and started to haul off for the Delta quadrant. Enterprise was apprised of the situation and gave chase. By the time Enterprise was ale to destory the Borg ship (still no knowledge of what the Borg were reallY) the Borg were able to send a signal to the delta quadrant, and it was mentioned near the neding that the signal would take a couple of hundred years to get where it was going. therefore setting up Enterprise-D's Q enforced meeting.
I read a Trek book, written by William Shatner, "The Return" if memory serves, where at the end, you discover that
the Borg were created when Decker merged with V-Ger.
Now that I think about it, that doesn't actually make any sense. Wasn't Guinan's planet attacked by the borg centuries ago? Unless, of course, when Decker and V-Ger merged, they ended up going back in time...
I read that book as well. I suppose the short answer is that the "star trek books" are not considered canon.
Of course who annointed the people that made that decision? That would be the great and holy Roddenberry that made the statement that if it isn't on screen it isn't canon. Then again I suppose if Tolkein had been alive when the "Lord of the Rings" books went crazy on screen he'd be chipping in what was or was not canon for his own work.
If books were canon then I'd note that Capt. Kirk got brought back to life.
It can be argued that Kirk's soul is still alive with Guinan offering the clue.
Is there a relationship between the Edosians and Undine/8472, even as an homage?
What of Gary Seven and his advanced race of tutors?
Why are there so many DAMNED "higher-leveled" energy races, such as the Organians, the ones later called "Q", the Metrons, etc. (especially in TOS) and what happened to them?
I read that book as well. I suppose the short answer is that the "star trek books" are not considered canon.
Of course who annointed the people that made that decision? That would be the great and holy Roddenberry that made the statement that if it isn't on screen it isn't canon. Then again I suppose if Tolkein had been alive when the "Lord of the Rings" books went crazy on screen he'd be chipping in what was or was not canon for his own work.
If books were canon then I'd note that Capt. Kirk got brought back to life.
I think there might be an issue with the Shatner books versus the series books in general. I think I remember Shatner talking on youtube about JJA not giving Kirk a chance to be alive in the latest film. Shatner said (to an extent) 'JJ couldn't think of a way to believeably allow Kirk to be alive in this timeframe, but clearly, if he would have read my book (insert title here), I gave him that way.'
I think there are some basic canon books out there, just to propel the series and it's spawn forward. There's a timeline, as the publisher has a deal with the powers behind ST to work with the authors to get the bible so they can write the stories they're paid to write... KWIM?
I heard that too...but what about STO? Are the details in "the path to 2409" canon? It is "onscreen"...even though it's my tiny monitor.:)
To quote the late Ed McMahon, "You are correct, sir!" :eek:
LMAO, I guess everything we do or cryptic does becomes canon now! Gosh, surprising the way things flow when comments of what is or is not canon were made before this technology was in the main stream. I know that isn't what Roddenberry meant, but it is what he said. So, do we follow the letter of the law or the intent? Traditionally its the letter. So, all this here be canon from now on. Too funny, tis to laugh!
It was followed up on in DS9 episodes. He joined the Klingon Defense Force, where he was pretty rubbish because he wasn't a good warrior and seriously clumsy. Eventually the crew came to like him as a good luck charm and started to like his blundering. He's apparently gotten more competent but we don't know what he's been doing since the end of the Dominion War. Surely he's survived since we got no episode of Worf in grief over it, and presumably he's still an officer on the battlecruiser he ended up on.
concerning Guinan, when she and Q meet in Ten foreward, she does raise her hands in a way that seems like she might be able to do something. Q likewise reacts as though she might be able to do something, hence the issue. Also, you will recall in later episodes Guinan proves resistant to the effects of reality alteration. all lead to the perception she isn't just a normal humanoid.
See this post for my "answer" to this ... a whole thread on the "Q conspiracy"
I still feel this is simply pointless defiance on her part and wishful thinking on the part of everyone who likes Guinan. Sure I like her too, but although she has some cryptic intuition of time (she was never unaffected by changes, just able to realise somehow that things were 'wrong'), that's a seriously far, far, far, far, far cry from being able to put up any defense against Q when the Borg were capable of squashing her species with her present. Even the slightest ability to combat a Q would render the Borg a pathetic irritant; we're talking about entities capable of hopping around time and space at a whim, constructing and deconstructing entire dimensions, changing matter reduced to the level of a joke (Beverly didn't even know she'd been turned into a barking dog), and considering changing the gravitational constant of the entire universe as the most obvious and immediate solution to an errant rock.
Likewise in the episode where Q "sends" the enterprise to meet the borg i am certain two things are stated 1) It is stated that it is the first time Starfleet encounters the Borg. and 2) it is stated that the borg were already on their way to the alpha quadrant. I do not believe it was stated why they where headed that way or that they were headed for earth specificly, but it was headed that direction. and this is of course well before first contact.
The Enterprise episode "Regeneration" deals with Borg recovered from the events of Star Trek First Contact that regenerate and revive after discovery. They finally managed to send a message to the Delta Quadrant before being destroyed, with the implication being that the Cube Q sent Picard to meet was already en route, and it turns out that Q was helping us by letting us know what was already coming ahead of time, because lets face it, the Federation would have been screwed if that Cube had just suddenly turned up with no warning.
For it's part, the Enterprise episode makes sure that no-one ever finds out who these mysterious creatures are, not even their name, so official 'first contact' still goes to Picard and the Ent-D, courtesy of our capricious friend Q.
How come the Raven (I think thats what it is called) with 7 of 9s parents were following and researching borg ships before the federation learned of them (Q - EntD - Cube Encounter)
It was followed up on in DS9 episodes. He joined the Klingon Defense Force, where he was pretty rubbish because he wasn't a good warrior and seriously clumsy. Eventually the crew came to like him as a good luck charm and started to like his blundering. He's apparently gotten more competent but we don't know what he's been doing since the end of the Dominion War. Surely he's survived since we got no episode of Worf in grief over it, and presumably he's still an officer on the battlecruiser he ended up on.
(...)
Hm i must of missed those episodes, didn't like him anyway
At the very least, Prime Spock is missing in his own timeline. And now there's two Spocks in this new timeline. Will there be another movie? Will Prime Spock go back? Is he stuck in that timeline?
On memory Alpha it says there is going to be another movie, but I don't remeber what it's going to be about. I heard that it might be a remake of the Wrath of Khan. I hope it isn't. It would be cooler if it was something origional.
On memory Alpha it says there is going to be another movie, but I don't remeber what it's going to be about. I heard that it might be a remake of the Wrath of Khan. I hope it isn't. It would be cooler if it was something origional.
What happened to B4?
B4 became Data 2.0 and Captain of the Enterprise.
The new Star Trek movie will be out in 2012 I think it is and no word on whats happening with it. As far as Spock goes he make sit clear he has no interest in returning to his reality and is staying to help rebuild a new Vulcan.
Ok fine, Q is a bastich, who tries to help us, the only time a toilet has been seen on screen (that I can recall) is when Odo and Kira were in in Jadzia's bathroom (Odo was sitting on it) and Spock has died more times than I have in this game. . .but the real question of Star Trek is when exactly did the time-line split thus causing the occurrence of multiple universes?
The earliest time that a member of the Enterprise crew went back in time to was BCE on Sarpedon when Atoz sent them through the Atavatron. I find it unlikely that this event played any part in the creation of a new timeline/universe.
The next farthest back they had gone was into the 1800s to have an encounter with one Samuel Clemens. Mr. Clemens was brought to the Enterprise D and thus had a good view of future tech. It's possible that he filched something, but not likely.
We have a number of encounters in the 60s were future tech may have been lost.
In the 80s Kirk and Crew make it to Sanfrancisco but given that a terran empire flag is being planted on the moon in the ENT opening credits for teh MU eps I think it had to have been before this.
The one I left out that I feel is a true possibility is a visit to the 1930s in City on The Edge of Forever. Why, you may ask is this a possibility? Because bum killed himself with McCoys dropped phaser.
There are other theories, there are other possibilities, I'd like to explore them and this seemed a good thread for it.
Ok fine, Q is a bastich, who tries to help us, the only time a toilet has been seen on screen (that I can recall) is when Odo and Kira were in in Jadzia's bathroom (Odo was sitting on it) and Spock has died more times than I have in this game. . .but the real question of Star Trek is when exactly did the time-line split thus causing the occurrence of multiple universes?
The earliest time that a member of the Enterprise crew went back in time to was BCE on Sarpedon when Atoz sent them through the Atavatron. I find it unlikely that this event played any part in the creation of a new timeline/universe.
The next farthest back they had gone was into the 1800s to have an encounter with one Samuel Clemens. Mr. Clemens was brought to the Enterprise D and thus had a good view of future tech. It's possible that he filched something, but not likely.
We have a number of encounters in the 60s were future tech may have been lost.
In the 80s Kirk and Crew make it to Sanfrancisco but given that a terran empire flag is being planted on the moon in the ENT opening credits for teh MU eps I think it had to have been before this.
The one I left out that I feel is a true possibility is a visit to the 1930s in City on The Edge of Forever. Why, you may ask is this a possibility? Because bum killed himself with McCoys dropped phaser.
There are other theories, there are other possibilities, I'd like to explore them and this seemed a good thread for it.
I think the first contact change is the most likely. Enterprise's intro basically contradicted the lore presented in the episode itself of the major divergence happening with the Vulcan's landing and instead of tea and crumpets they get a shotgun to the chest,
Ok fine, Q is a bastich, who tries to help us, the only time a toilet has been seen on screen (that I can recall) is when Odo and Kira were in in Jadzia's bathroom (Odo was sitting on it) and Spock has died more times than I have in this game. . .but the real question of Star Trek is when exactly did the time-line split thus causing the occurrence of multiple universes?
The earliest time that a member of the Enterprise crew went back in time to was BCE on Sarpedon when Atoz sent them through the Atavatron. I find it unlikely that this event played any part in the creation of a new timeline/universe.
The next farthest back they had gone was into the 1800s to have an encounter with one Samuel Clemens. Mr. Clemens was brought to the Enterprise D and thus had a good view of future tech. It's possible that he filched something, but not likely.
We have a number of encounters in the 60s were future tech may have been lost.
In the 80s Kirk and Crew make it to Sanfrancisco but given that a terran empire flag is being planted on the moon in the ENT opening credits for teh MU eps I think it had to have been before this.
The one I left out that I feel is a true possibility is a visit to the 1930s in City on The Edge of Forever. Why, you may ask is this a possibility? Because bum killed himself with McCoys dropped phaser.
There are other theories, there are other possibilities, I'd like to explore them and this seemed a good thread for it.
There's also Spock going back in time to the ice age on some planet on TOS. Was that mentioned I am not sure what the first example of BCE is referring to?
There's Picard going to the begining of huminod existance in TNG "All Good Things" Maybe he slapped a bug that was to someday become the 2nd sentinent species on Earth?
Geeze, somebody took a fun plot twist of the 1960's and has just really ran with that ball over the years. (If you guess I am NOT a fan of time travel in Trek, you get the big prize.)
I think the first contact change is the most likely. Enterprise's intro basically contradicted the lore presented in the episode itself of the major divergence happening with the Vulcan's landing and instead of tea and crumpets they get a shotgun to the chest,
The problem here comes with teh opening credits showing earths history of war. Also if you look at the sequence, the flag is planted before the Phoenix flight IIRC (at work so not sure). What that implies even tho it is the standard ENT space suit(and is confirmed by creators by saying they used the space suit that they did because they already had the CG of it rendered) , is that it happened first.
As for the First Contact being the point of divergence, the problem we face is that it's not in keeping with the "I just wanna make money attitude" of Cochran. He had a "I don't give a rat's patootie" attitude about everything that wasn't making money. Thus the MU Cochran shotgunning the first Vulcan implies the change is much older.
I liked the origional posts, and it got 41 pages, so I thought it would be cool to recreat this post. Just list the different mysteries of the Star Trek universe.
To quote JonathanMax for the first mystery, "Toilets. You never see them on screen."
Thank you for keeping my idea for this thread alive.
There's also Spock going back in time to the ice age on some planet on TOS. Was that mentioned I am not sure what the first example of BCE is referring to?
There's Picard going to the begining of huminod existance in TNG "All Good Things" Maybe he slapped a bug that was to someday become the 2nd sentinent species on Earth?
Geeze, somebody took a fun plot twist of the 1960's and has just really ran with that ball over the years. (If you guess I am NOT a fan of time travel in Trek, you get the big prize.)
Yes, I was referring to the "Ice Age" episode with the BCE comment. I just typed it poorly. That was a different planet. It doesn't apply simply because in the Roddenverse (and it's parallels) earth is the traditional point of crux.
Picard going back to the Primordial soup in all good things is one possibility, replacing the incident with Samuel Clemens as the farthest trip back in Earth history onscreen. I suppose it could have happened there. .Picard showing up, breathing his future germs on the primordial goop causing an unexpected mutation to occur making humanity more aggressive in temperament.
I don't mind the time travel in Trek, nor do I mind the alternate universe stuff. I just want to make my brain stop hurting by reconciling them with each other. If books were canon I could do it more easily, but books aren't canon and thus can only be used (loosely) as further evidence of the problematic nature of Temporal Physics.
The problem here comes with teh opening credits showing earths history of war. Also if you look at the sequence, the flag is planted before the Phoenix flight IIRC (at work so not sure). What that implies even tho it is the standard ENT space suit(and is confirmed by creators by saying they used the space suit that they did because they already had the CG of it rendered) , is that it happened first.
As for the First Contact being the point of divergence, the problem we face is that it's not in keeping with the "I just wanna make money attitude" of Cochran. He had a "I don't give a rat's patootie" attitude about everything that wasn't making money. Thus the MU Cochran shotgunning the first Vulcan implies the change is much older.
Well the Change in attitude attributed to Cochrane is based on Picard and crew basically and the info of the Borg. Instead of trusting the future they basically panic at the thought of the Borg and decide they need to be prepared.
Thats where the issue does come in because the Enterprise intro as you said shows a Terran Empire far earlier
Yes, I was referring to the "Ice Age" episode with the BCE comment. I just typed it poorly. That was a different planet. It doesn't apply simply because in the Roddenverse (and it's parallels) earth is the traditional point of crux.
Picard going back to the Primordial soup in all good things is one possibility, replacing the incident with Samuel Clemens as the farthest trip back in Earth history onscreen. I suppose it could have happened there. .Picard showing up, breathing his future germs on the primordial goop causing an unexpected mutation to occur making humanity more aggressive in temperament.
I don't mind the time travel in Trek, nor do I mind the alternate universe stuff. I just want to make my brain stop hurting by reconciling them with each other. If books were canon I could do it more easily, but books aren't canon and thus can only be used (loosely) as further evidence of the problematic nature of Temporal Physics.
Well the Change in attitude attributed to Cochrane is based on Picard and crew basically and the info of the Borg. Instead of trusting the future they basically panic at the thought of the Borg and decide they need to be prepared.
Thats where the issue does come in because the Enterprise intro as you said shows a Terran Empire far earlier
Hmmm, that's not bad. With the Enterprise hanging around Watching first contact happen, but from a safe distance it's believable. As you say, the problem is with the Terran Flag being planted on the moon at the moon landing.
Although I'm beginning to form a theory that takes a number of different things into account. There will need to be diagrams!
I don't know if I mentioned it in my first post, but the purpose of this is to help me determine what happened in a believable manner so that I can write a paper on it. This isn't for class or anything like that (I'm 38 and well out of school) it's for all of us Trek geeks to have fun with.
Hmmm, that's not bad. With the Enterprise hanging around Watching first contact happen, but from a safe distance it's believable. As you say, the problem is with the Terran Flag being planted on the moon at the moon landing.
Although I'm beginning to form a theory that takes a number of different things into account. There will need to be diagrams!
I don't know if I mentioned it in my first post, but the purpose of this is to help me determine what happened in a believable manner so that I can write a paper on it. This isn't for class or anything like that (I'm 38 and well out of school) it's for all of us Trek geeks to have fun with.
The First Contact change was featured in The Mirror Universe Trilogy by William Shatner and Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens. In fact the first contact divergence was written in 1999.
They put it as Human space travel was colored by Earth's pre-mature encounter with the Borg and so instead of developing a diverse and peaceful Federation based on exploration, humans created a hostile and military-oriented Empire based on strength and fear to be prepared for the Borg.
Fun fact with that is Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens were Co-Producers of Season 4 and Executive Story Editors for Enterprise so the First Contact coincidence is likely on purpose.
I suspect the Intro was made how it was more because they had to have filler to meet the happy go lucky world version.
I have long felt the Stevens and their long link to writing Star Trek material was a huge part of Season 4 being so much better.
At the very least, Prime Spock is missing in his own timeline. And now there's two Spocks in this new timeline. Will there be another movie? Will Prime Spock go back? Is he stuck in that timeline?
Well if not a movie, lets hope another series, we need another startrek series and the last movie left enough so the writers have plenty to play with
The one I left out that I feel is a true possibility is a visit to the 1930s in City on The Edge of Forever. Why, you may ask is this a possibility? Because bum killed himself with McCoys dropped phaser.
There are other theories, there are other possibilities, I'd like to explore them and this seemed a good thread for it.
I wonder what happened with City on the Edge of Forever? The Guardien said that Kirk, Spock, and McCoy would be brought back to their universe the moment they reset the timeline. So how did Kirk and Spock manage to get back into their uniforms if they were instantly went back to their universe? Also, did Kirk and Spock getting jobs, renting rooms, ect. in the Great Depression change the timeline? Did they take jobs from other people, changing the whole timeline? I try not to think about the fine details for episodes dealing with time. It gets too confusing.
The First Contact change was featured in The Mirror Universe Trilogy by William Shatner and Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens. In fact the first contact divergence was written in 1999.
They put it as Human space travel was colored by Earth's pre-mature encounter with the Borg and so instead of developing a diverse and peaceful Federation based on exploration, humans created a hostile and military-oriented Empire based on strength and fear to be prepared for the Borg.
Fun fact with that is Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens were Co-Producers of Season 4 and Executive Story Editors for Enterprise so the First Contact coincidence is likely on purpose.
I suspect the Intro was made how it was more because they had to have filler to meet the happy go lucky world version.
I have long felt the Stevens and their long link to writing Star Trek material was a huge part of Season 4 being so much better.
The problem is that even with the same authors being responsible for the books (which were among my favorites) and the 4th season, the books can't be held as canon.
The theory I'm working on will follow this line of reasoning:
1. Picard breathes future germs into the primordial ooze causing humanity to develop more aggressively than it did in the prime universe.
2. Picard travels to the 1800s to meet with a rather cantankerous Samuel Clemens who [filches? Memorizes? etc] Information about future tech.
3. McCoy travels to the 1930s, looses his Phaser and a man kills himself with it (vaporizing the phaser in the process). This man will have turned out to be a major contributor to peace after the economic recovery.
4. Kirk, having traveled to the past to save McCoy saves Helen Keller. However because she died three days later than she should have, she was able to feed and help a person who goes on to be a military leader and due to the vagaries of his career we join WWII earlier than we would have. (He built his carrerr during WWI don't question me! :-)
5. Kirk makes later journeys into past, 3 that take place in the 1960s. Trace evidence of his passing is left despite his efforts to maintain the time-line. This allows the USA to develop more advanced weaponry earlier than it's contemporaries.
6. Kirk and crew go back in time, yet again, to the 80's. While their gear was recovered, the military was able to take photographs of and rude schematics of Chekov's equipment.
7. Picard and crew make the trip to visit Zephram Cochren further contaminating the time-line. resulting in the MU we come to love.
The "terran empire" flag is actually the Flag of the conquering empire of the USA after it had been provided future tech by Kirk and crew, Mr. Clemens, and an aggressive gene by Picard.
You may now fill in the MU episode of your choice and know that it all makes sense and that we can blame a combination of Picard and Kirk for all that has transpired in the MU as a result of Temporal Interference.
Now that I have the core theory, I really do have to write this paper and include lots of trek technobabble!
i dont think MU's origin can be explained by the show, i always thought that it was a what if the roman empire never fell kind of universe given that there is a ceasar and according yo memory alpha archer makes refrences to "gods", thats how i always thought of it, the fact that they write/speak english however, well i dont know....
what ever did happen with the traveler and wesley "neo" crusher?
what precise function does the queen have? i mean the objectives of the borg seem pretty damn sinple, they need no more leadership than a swarm of locust
whats the dirt on picard and guinan as in their relationship
The problem is that even with the same authors being responsible for the books (which were among my favorites) and the 4th season, the books can't be held as canon.
The theory I'm working on will follow this line of reasoning:
1. Picard breathes future germs into the primordial ooze causing humanity to develop more aggressively than it did in the prime universe.
2. Picard travels to the 1800s to meet with a rather cantankerous Samuel Clemens who [filches? Memorizes? etc] Information about future tech.
3. McCoy travels to the 1930s, looses his Phaser and a man kills himself with it (vaporizing the phaser in the process). This man will have turned out to be a major contributor to peace after the economic recovery.
4. Kirk, having traveled to the past to save McCoy saves Helen Keller. However because she died three days later than she should have, she was able to feed and help a person who goes on to be a military leader and due to the vagaries of his career we join WWII earlier than we would have. (He built his carrerr during WWI don't question me! :-)
5. Kirk makes later journeys into past, 3 that take place in the 1960s. Trace evidence of his passing is left despite his efforts to maintain the time-line. This allows the USA to develop more advanced weaponry earlier than it's contemporaries.
6. Kirk and crew go back in time, yet again, to the 80's. While their gear was recovered, the military was able to take photographs of and rude schematics of Chekov's equipment.
7. Picard and crew make the trip to visit Zephram Cochren further contaminating the time-line. resulting in the MU we come to love.
The "terran empire" flag is actually the Flag of the conquering empire of the USA after it had been provided future tech by Kirk and crew, Mr. Clemens, and an aggressive gene by Picard.
You may now fill in the MU episode of your choice and know that it all makes sense and that we can blame a combination of Picard and Kirk for all that has transpired in the MU as a result of Temporal Interference.
Now that I have the core theory, I really do have to write this paper and include lots of trek technobabble!
i must ask but what makes you so certain that it was an american empire? from your description i could easily see the rest of the world banding together against the US.
further more if you take into account the general attitude america has towards royalty and any kind of visibly large state influence in their privat lives, i find it very hard to believe that they would accept anything as infringing as an empire or a corporatism/facism. coupled with america's intense love for capitalism i find it incredible (in the original meaning of the word)
i think something happened that stabalized the ancient roman government and its colonies, or a descendent empire not based on religion
I wonder what happened with City on the Edge of Forever? The Guardien said that Kirk, Spock, and McCoy would be brought back to their universe the moment they reset the timeline. So how did Kirk and Spock manage to get back into their uniforms if they were instantly went back to their universe? Also, did Kirk and Spock getting jobs, renting rooms, ect. in the Great Depression change the timeline? Did they take jobs from other people, changing the whole timeline? I try not to think about the fine details for episodes dealing with time. It gets too confusing.
Your welcome. I really missed the origional thread, so I thought I would recreat it. Thanks for coming up with the origional idea for this thread!
City on the Edge of Forever is one of those time-loop things that always proves to me that media revolving around time just doesn't work. Think about it. What's-her-face that they had to figure out whether she's supposed to live or die... she wouldn't have died if she hadn't have tried to cross the street to get back to Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. But that's what was SUPPOSED to happen in order for our timeline to remain unchanged. Which means that they were SUPPOSED to go back in time. To make sure she died. Because they were back in time. Which is what they were supposed to do.
Do you see? It's a damned broken time loop! Somewhere in this little blip in time, Kirk and gang will keep going back in time to stop Bones from breaking time, which will actually be what causes time to be the way it is!
City on the Edge of Forever is one of those time-loop things that always proves to me that media revolving around time just doesn't work. Think about it. What's-her-face that they had to figure out whether she's supposed to live or die... she wouldn't have died if she hadn't have tried to cross the street to get back to Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. But that's what was SUPPOSED to happen in order for our timeline to remain unchanged. Which means that they were SUPPOSED to go back in time. To make sure she died. Because they were back in time. Which is what they were supposed to do.
Do you see? It's a damned broken time loop! Somewhere in this little blip in time, Kirk and gang will keep going back in time to stop Bones from breaking time, which will actually be what causes time to be the way it is!
IT'S DUMB!
Ok, I'm at work and will have to try to answer these last three posts when I get home (which is when I normally play the game
In short I think it's american because all of the potentially lost tech was in America. In theory it could be France (as that's likely where Q took Picard, but I'd have to watch the Ep to be sure.
What you're describing is a predestination paradox. And that's what I LOVE about temporal physics. I'll try to get some answers tonight or tomorrow!
i dont think MU's origin can be explained by the show, i always thought that it was a what if the roman empire never fell kind of universe given that there is a ceasar and according yo memory alpha archer makes refrences to "gods", thats how i always thought of it, the fact that they write/speak english however, well i dont know....
what ever did happen with the traveler and wesley "neo" crusher?
what precise function does the queen have? i mean the objectives of the borg seem pretty damn sinple, they need no more leadership than a swarm of locust
whats the dirt on picard and guinan as in their relationship
I'll cover the MU specific stuff later after I've had a chance to gather some more data.
Wesley was at Riker and Troy's wedding sitting at the far edge of the table as I recall. But essentially, Wesley had the ability to manipulate space with his mind (as focused through machines) and teh Traveler taught him to harness his power. Wesley ultimately left Starfleet during season 5 or 6 of TNG when they started going after the Maquis <sp>.
The function of the queen is less one of leadership and more one of administration of resources. They use a queen (though hypothetically a king could also work) because a biological brain is better able to respond to random situations and be a bit more creative than a mechanical one. Additionally from a storytelling point, it adds more to the insect like nature of teh collective.
Picard and Guinan's relationship is one of mutual respect and friendship. Guinan first met Picard in teh 1800s when he went back in time to stop aliens from effing things up. Picard first met Guinan a few centuries later.
I follow what you're saying, but it's fun and interesting to look at ways to explain events in fictional future time lines when our own history denies the fictional explanation.
Anyway.....
What ever happened to Enterprise-A?
Decommisioned at the end of ST6... and suuposedly turned into a museum ship and renamed back to its original name of the Yorktown.
Comments
I read that book as well. I suppose the short answer is that the "star trek books" are not considered canon.
Of course who annointed the people that made that decision? That would be the great and holy Roddenberry that made the statement that if it isn't on screen it isn't canon. Then again I suppose if Tolkein had been alive when the "Lord of the Rings" books went crazy on screen he'd be chipping in what was or was not canon for his own work.
If books were canon then I'd note that Capt. Kirk got brought back to life.
Is there a relationship between the Edosians and Undine/8472, even as an homage?
What of Gary Seven and his advanced race of tutors?
Why are there so many DAMNED "higher-leveled" energy races, such as the Organians, the ones later called "Q", the Metrons, etc. (especially in TOS) and what happened to them?
I think there might be an issue with the Shatner books versus the series books in general. I think I remember Shatner talking on youtube about JJA not giving Kirk a chance to be alive in the latest film. Shatner said (to an extent) 'JJ couldn't think of a way to believeably allow Kirk to be alive in this timeframe, but clearly, if he would have read my book (insert title here), I gave him that way.'
I think there are some basic canon books out there, just to propel the series and it's spawn forward. There's a timeline, as the publisher has a deal with the powers behind ST to work with the authors to get the bible so they can write the stories they're paid to write... KWIM?
I heard that too...but what about STO? Are the details in "the path to 2409" canon? It is "onscreen"...even though it's my tiny monitor.:)
To quote the late Ed McMahon, "You are correct, sir!" :eek:
LMAO, I guess everything we do or cryptic does becomes canon now! Gosh, surprising the way things flow when comments of what is or is not canon were made before this technology was in the main stream. I know that isn't what Roddenberry meant, but it is what he said. So, do we follow the letter of the law or the intent? Traditionally its the letter. So, all this here be canon from now on. Too funny, tis to laugh!
It was followed up on in DS9 episodes. He joined the Klingon Defense Force, where he was pretty rubbish because he wasn't a good warrior and seriously clumsy. Eventually the crew came to like him as a good luck charm and started to like his blundering. He's apparently gotten more competent but we don't know what he's been doing since the end of the Dominion War. Surely he's survived since we got no episode of Worf in grief over it, and presumably he's still an officer on the battlecruiser he ended up on.
I still feel this is simply pointless defiance on her part and wishful thinking on the part of everyone who likes Guinan. Sure I like her too, but although she has some cryptic intuition of time (she was never unaffected by changes, just able to realise somehow that things were 'wrong'), that's a seriously far, far, far, far, far cry from being able to put up any defense against Q when the Borg were capable of squashing her species with her present. Even the slightest ability to combat a Q would render the Borg a pathetic irritant; we're talking about entities capable of hopping around time and space at a whim, constructing and deconstructing entire dimensions, changing matter reduced to the level of a joke (Beverly didn't even know she'd been turned into a barking dog), and considering changing the gravitational constant of the entire universe as the most obvious and immediate solution to an errant rock.
The Enterprise episode "Regeneration" deals with Borg recovered from the events of Star Trek First Contact that regenerate and revive after discovery. They finally managed to send a message to the Delta Quadrant before being destroyed, with the implication being that the Cube Q sent Picard to meet was already en route, and it turns out that Q was helping us by letting us know what was already coming ahead of time, because lets face it, the Federation would have been screwed if that Cube had just suddenly turned up with no warning.
For it's part, the Enterprise episode makes sure that no-one ever finds out who these mysterious creatures are, not even their name, so official 'first contact' still goes to Picard and the Ent-D, courtesy of our capricious friend Q.
Hm i must of missed those episodes, didn't like him anyway
On memory Alpha it says there is going to be another movie, but I don't remeber what it's going to be about. I heard that it might be a remake of the Wrath of Khan. I hope it isn't. It would be cooler if it was something origional.
What happened to B4?
B4 became Data 2.0 and Captain of the Enterprise.
The new Star Trek movie will be out in 2012 I think it is and no word on whats happening with it. As far as Spock goes he make sit clear he has no interest in returning to his reality and is staying to help rebuild a new Vulcan.
The earliest time that a member of the Enterprise crew went back in time to was BCE on Sarpedon when Atoz sent them through the Atavatron. I find it unlikely that this event played any part in the creation of a new timeline/universe.
The next farthest back they had gone was into the 1800s to have an encounter with one Samuel Clemens. Mr. Clemens was brought to the Enterprise D and thus had a good view of future tech. It's possible that he filched something, but not likely.
We have a number of encounters in the 60s were future tech may have been lost.
In the 80s Kirk and Crew make it to Sanfrancisco but given that a terran empire flag is being planted on the moon in the ENT opening credits for teh MU eps I think it had to have been before this.
The one I left out that I feel is a true possibility is a visit to the 1930s in City on The Edge of Forever. Why, you may ask is this a possibility? Because bum killed himself with McCoys dropped phaser.
There are other theories, there are other possibilities, I'd like to explore them and this seemed a good thread for it.
I think the first contact change is the most likely. Enterprise's intro basically contradicted the lore presented in the episode itself of the major divergence happening with the Vulcan's landing and instead of tea and crumpets they get a shotgun to the chest,
There's also Spock going back in time to the ice age on some planet on TOS. Was that mentioned I am not sure what the first example of BCE is referring to?
There's Picard going to the begining of huminod existance in TNG "All Good Things" Maybe he slapped a bug that was to someday become the 2nd sentinent species on Earth?
Geeze, somebody took a fun plot twist of the 1960's and has just really ran with that ball over the years. (If you guess I am NOT a fan of time travel in Trek, you get the big prize.)
The problem here comes with teh opening credits showing earths history of war. Also if you look at the sequence, the flag is planted before the Phoenix flight IIRC (at work so not sure). What that implies even tho it is the standard ENT space suit(and is confirmed by creators by saying they used the space suit that they did because they already had the CG of it rendered) , is that it happened first.
As for the First Contact being the point of divergence, the problem we face is that it's not in keeping with the "I just wanna make money attitude" of Cochran. He had a "I don't give a rat's patootie" attitude about everything that wasn't making money. Thus the MU Cochran shotgunning the first Vulcan implies the change is much older.
Thank you for keeping my idea for this thread alive.
Yes, I was referring to the "Ice Age" episode with the BCE comment. I just typed it poorly. That was a different planet. It doesn't apply simply because in the Roddenverse (and it's parallels) earth is the traditional point of crux.
Picard going back to the Primordial soup in all good things is one possibility, replacing the incident with Samuel Clemens as the farthest trip back in Earth history onscreen. I suppose it could have happened there. .Picard showing up, breathing his future germs on the primordial goop causing an unexpected mutation to occur making humanity more aggressive in temperament.
I don't mind the time travel in Trek, nor do I mind the alternate universe stuff. I just want to make my brain stop hurting by reconciling them with each other. If books were canon I could do it more easily, but books aren't canon and thus can only be used (loosely) as further evidence of the problematic nature of Temporal Physics.
Well the Change in attitude attributed to Cochrane is based on Picard and crew basically and the info of the Borg. Instead of trusting the future they basically panic at the thought of the Borg and decide they need to be prepared.
Thats where the issue does come in because the Enterprise intro as you said shows a Terran Empire far earlier
Thanks for clearing that up!
Hmmm, that's not bad. With the Enterprise hanging around Watching first contact happen, but from a safe distance it's believable. As you say, the problem is with the Terran Flag being planted on the moon at the moon landing.
Although I'm beginning to form a theory that takes a number of different things into account. There will need to be diagrams!
I don't know if I mentioned it in my first post, but the purpose of this is to help me determine what happened in a believable manner so that I can write a paper on it. This isn't for class or anything like that (I'm 38 and well out of school) it's for all of us Trek geeks to have fun with.
The First Contact change was featured in The Mirror Universe Trilogy by William Shatner and Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens. In fact the first contact divergence was written in 1999.
They put it as Human space travel was colored by Earth's pre-mature encounter with the Borg and so instead of developing a diverse and peaceful Federation based on exploration, humans created a hostile and military-oriented Empire based on strength and fear to be prepared for the Borg.
Fun fact with that is Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens were Co-Producers of Season 4 and Executive Story Editors for Enterprise so the First Contact coincidence is likely on purpose.
I suspect the Intro was made how it was more because they had to have filler to meet the happy go lucky world version.
I have long felt the Stevens and their long link to writing Star Trek material was a huge part of Season 4 being so much better.
Well if not a movie, lets hope another series, we need another startrek series and the last movie left enough so the writers have plenty to play with
I wonder what happened with City on the Edge of Forever? The Guardien said that Kirk, Spock, and McCoy would be brought back to their universe the moment they reset the timeline. So how did Kirk and Spock manage to get back into their uniforms if they were instantly went back to their universe? Also, did Kirk and Spock getting jobs, renting rooms, ect. in the Great Depression change the timeline? Did they take jobs from other people, changing the whole timeline? I try not to think about the fine details for episodes dealing with time. It gets too confusing.
Your welcome. I really missed the origional thread, so I thought I would recreat it. Thanks for coming up with the origional idea for this thread!
The problem is that even with the same authors being responsible for the books (which were among my favorites) and the 4th season, the books can't be held as canon.
The theory I'm working on will follow this line of reasoning:
1. Picard breathes future germs into the primordial ooze causing humanity to develop more aggressively than it did in the prime universe.
2. Picard travels to the 1800s to meet with a rather cantankerous Samuel Clemens who [filches? Memorizes? etc] Information about future tech.
3. McCoy travels to the 1930s, looses his Phaser and a man kills himself with it (vaporizing the phaser in the process). This man will have turned out to be a major contributor to peace after the economic recovery.
4. Kirk, having traveled to the past to save McCoy saves Helen Keller. However because she died three days later than she should have, she was able to feed and help a person who goes on to be a military leader and due to the vagaries of his career we join WWII earlier than we would have. (He built his carrerr during WWI don't question me! :-)
5. Kirk makes later journeys into past, 3 that take place in the 1960s. Trace evidence of his passing is left despite his efforts to maintain the time-line. This allows the USA to develop more advanced weaponry earlier than it's contemporaries.
6. Kirk and crew go back in time, yet again, to the 80's. While their gear was recovered, the military was able to take photographs of and rude schematics of Chekov's equipment.
7. Picard and crew make the trip to visit Zephram Cochren further contaminating the time-line. resulting in the MU we come to love.
The "terran empire" flag is actually the Flag of the conquering empire of the USA after it had been provided future tech by Kirk and crew, Mr. Clemens, and an aggressive gene by Picard.
You may now fill in the MU episode of your choice and know that it all makes sense and that we can blame a combination of Picard and Kirk for all that has transpired in the MU as a result of Temporal Interference.
Now that I have the core theory, I really do have to write this paper and include lots of trek technobabble!
what ever did happen with the traveler and wesley "neo" crusher?
what precise function does the queen have? i mean the objectives of the borg seem pretty damn sinple, they need no more leadership than a swarm of locust
whats the dirt on picard and guinan as in their relationship
i must ask but what makes you so certain that it was an american empire? from your description i could easily see the rest of the world banding together against the US.
further more if you take into account the general attitude america has towards royalty and any kind of visibly large state influence in their privat lives, i find it very hard to believe that they would accept anything as infringing as an empire or a corporatism/facism. coupled with america's intense love for capitalism i find it incredible (in the original meaning of the word)
i think something happened that stabalized the ancient roman government and its colonies, or a descendent empire not based on religion
City on the Edge of Forever is one of those time-loop things that always proves to me that media revolving around time just doesn't work. Think about it. What's-her-face that they had to figure out whether she's supposed to live or die... she wouldn't have died if she hadn't have tried to cross the street to get back to Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. But that's what was SUPPOSED to happen in order for our timeline to remain unchanged. Which means that they were SUPPOSED to go back in time. To make sure she died. Because they were back in time. Which is what they were supposed to do.
Do you see? It's a damned broken time loop! Somewhere in this little blip in time, Kirk and gang will keep going back in time to stop Bones from breaking time, which will actually be what causes time to be the way it is!
IT'S DUMB!
Ok, I'm at work and will have to try to answer these last three posts when I get home (which is when I normally play the game
In short I think it's american because all of the potentially lost tech was in America. In theory it could be France (as that's likely where Q took Picard, but I'd have to watch the Ep to be sure.
What you're describing is a predestination paradox. And that's what I LOVE about temporal physics. I'll try to get some answers tonight or tomorrow!
-Off work, going home!
I'll cover the MU specific stuff later after I've had a chance to gather some more data.
Wesley was at Riker and Troy's wedding sitting at the far edge of the table as I recall. But essentially, Wesley had the ability to manipulate space with his mind (as focused through machines) and teh Traveler taught him to harness his power. Wesley ultimately left Starfleet during season 5 or 6 of TNG when they started going after the Maquis <sp>.
The function of the queen is less one of leadership and more one of administration of resources. They use a queen (though hypothetically a king could also work) because a biological brain is better able to respond to random situations and be a bit more creative than a mechanical one. Additionally from a storytelling point, it adds more to the insect like nature of teh collective.
Picard and Guinan's relationship is one of mutual respect and friendship. Guinan first met Picard in teh 1800s when he went back in time to stop aliens from effing things up. Picard first met Guinan a few centuries later.
Decommisioned at the end of ST6... and suuposedly turned into a museum ship and renamed back to its original name of the Yorktown.