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Is there a bias towards Discovery?

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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,166 Arc User
    zzzspina01 wrote: »
    ...they have stated that the reasion the show is so different is that it has to be 25% plus different form trek cannon

    I think you are confused. They did ask John Eaves to changed the design of the Enterprise itself (no idea why) but that was only about the ship itself, not the show.

    https://comicbook.com/startrek/news/star-trek-discovery-enterprise-design-legal/

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • altston1909#2309 altston1909 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    Comparing discovery's disregard for canon (or better yet, total canon destruction) to any of the classic trek's is like comparing a paper cut to a limb amputation.

    Even Enterprise , the "worst offender" before Kurzman's "Trek" doesn't come close. FYI, I enjoyed and supported Enterprise back in the day. I do not support the current "Trek". Well, Lower Decks at least tries HARD, everything else...you can feel it's made by people that neither care nor know the canon.
  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    zzzspina01 wrote: »
    kayajay wrote: »
    I'm probably going to get zapped for saying this myself, but I can't help but notice any thread that's at all critical of Discovery gets locked or deleted. And anyone who makes a criticism of the show, even when it's a polite and intelligent reply or comment, gets banned.

    I know that Cryptic is at the mercy of CBS and Discovery is CBS' pride and joy, but I do think we should be able to express an opinion, especially if they help to make changes for the better in Discovery.

    My understanding is that they will make content along side current TV show/Movies. so Disco is getting heavy content when compaired to all other content. you'll also find Picard Show content increes other the next year or two.

    Apart from Seven and her pistols, have we really had that much Picard in STO? Well, the La Sirena, but it's the worst of the raiders.
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  • eldarion79eldarion79 Member Posts: 1,679 Arc User
    Comparing discovery's disregard for canon (or better yet, total canon destruction) to any of the classic trek's is like comparing a paper cut to a limb amputation.

    Even Enterprise , the "worst offender" before Kurzman's "Trek" doesn't come close. FYI, I enjoyed and supported Enterprise back in the day. I do not support the current "Trek". Well, Lower Decks at least tries HARD, everything else...you can feel it's made by people that neither care nor know the canon.

    Can please site examples of Discovery's disregard for canon or canon destruction. If you don't think Classic Trek is pretty bad, then you haven't been looking.
  • altston1909#2309 altston1909 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    I will not be drawn into an discussion that will probably result in my own ban nor do I have the time to cite 1% of their canon problems (for just the pilot episode.) but just for the fun of it, have a few of the more glaring ones:

    Klingon Sarcophagus ship (they do not care for the bodies of the dead)
    Klingon appearance even though they should be mostly affected by the augment virus and be smootheads (not the mention the awful redesign)
    Klingons shaving their heads in war time
    Klingons with cloaks before Balance of Terror (Kor said it was brand spanking new much later in the timeline, Spock confused by it having it be only be a theoretical prior to the Balance of Terror encounter)
    Starfleet holographic communication (it's supposed to be brand new, cutting edge in DS9, episode "For the Uniform" if I'm not mistaken)
    Bridge windows (they were never ever windows in prime timeline, only in the JJ-mystery box timeline)

    This are just some of the stuff from the pilot episodes. Please find me any other Trek pilot with more continuity problems.
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  • eldarion79eldarion79 Member Posts: 1,679 Arc User
    I will not be drawn into an discussion that will probably result in my own ban nor do I have the time to cite 1% of their canon problems (for just the pilot episode.) but just for the fun of it, have a few of the more glaring ones:

    Klingon Sarcophagus ship (they do not care for the bodies of the dead)
    Klingon appearance even though they should be mostly affected by the augment virus and be smootheads (not the mention the awful redesign)
    Klingons shaving their heads in war time
    Klingons with cloaks before Balance of Terror (Kor said it was brand spanking new much later in the timeline, Spock confused by it having it be only be a theoretical prior to the Balance of Terror encounter)
    Starfleet holographic communication (it's supposed to be brand new, cutting edge in DS9, episode "For the Uniform" if I'm not mistaken)
    Bridge windows (they were never ever windows in prime timeline, only in the JJ-mystery box timeline)

    This are just some of the stuff from the pilot episodes. Please find me any other Trek pilot with more continuity problems.

    1. Klingon Sarcophagus Ship- That is your opinion
    2. Klingon appearance issues - That is a recurring theme is Trek, Klingons have been re-designed several times and I imagine there will be more redesigns in future series
    3. Cultural and societal differences occur all the time, especially separated by generations. 1900s fashion vs 2020s fashion are very different. Back in the 70s and 80s, clean shaven was the norm and now beards are everywhere.
    4. It is a form of stealth technology, this is speculation on whether all of the Klingon empire employed it
    5. In the intervening hundred years, we have seen Starfleet ships do spectacular things and holographic communication crosses that line?
    6. We've never seen a head on Star Trek, I gather they use the three seashells. Besides, in First Contact they used a holographic wall to hide the viewscreen, why can't they have window shutters for the bridge?
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,588 Community Moderator
    I'm gonna address some of these concerns, at least from my point of view.

    -Klingon Sarcophagus Ship: Was stated to be an OLD ship for one. For another... Klingon culture is just as diverse as our own. While true some groups believe the body is of no consequence, clearly some do care. And talk of The Black Fleet as part of the afterlife is canon. The Sarco seems to honor the idea of The Black Fleet. There's also the practice known as the Ak'voh, where warriors preside over the dead body of a fallen warrior for a time.
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Fleet
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ak'voh

    -Klingon Appearance: While radical in season one, they changed it in season two, which brought it more in line with TNG style Klingons. As for the Augment Virus... it was never revealed just HOW far it had spread through the Empire. So it is plausible to say that not ALL Klingons were affected. And honestly the appearance of the Klingons could be passed off as another ethnic group, or just handwaved because we also have three variations of Andorians.

    -Klingons shaving heads: Eh... could be an ancient practice that was discontinued. After Discovery, the only bald Klingon we see after that is General Chang in Undiscovered Country. By choice, genetics, or ancient tradition... who knows.

    -Klingons with Cloaks: They already explained it as having originated from the Sarco, which herself was an OLD design. While Starfleet has encountered cloaks in the past per Enterprise, citing only TOS is flawed because that is referencing the ROMULAN Cloak. Kor saying Klingon cloaks were new could be referring to their Romulan designed cloaks, which were much better than the older ones they had in the 2250s, which I might add, were rendered useless by data obtained by Discovery and given to Starfleet. Why keep using a flawed cloak your enemy can see through?

    -Starfleet/Klingon Holographic communications: While an oddball choice... it doesn't mean it wasn't experimented with at any point before DS9. And it clearly had flaws in the 23rd Century, which led to it being mothballed until Holographic technology was perfected in the 24th Century. USS Enterprise was pretty much shut down because of it, and Pike ordered it ripped out. Also note that the 23rd Century variant seemed to depict the individuals using it as ghostly, whereas the system used in DS9 didn't.

    -Bridge Windows: Just because we didn't see any doesn't mean they never existed. While Kelvin Timeline based, Star Trek Beyond's USS Franklin shows that Starfleet had been playing around with that style as early as the 22nd Century, before the timeline split in 2233. We just never saw it on mainline ships of the franchise until Discovery. Both versions of the viewscreen have their advantages and disadvantages.

    And just in case anyone wants to bring it up:
    -Spore Drive's existence: No one ever said that Starfleet COULDN'T experiment with new technologies at any point. Clearly the Spore Drive was an attempt at making a new FTL Propulsion System, so... its no different than their later Transwarp experiments with USS Excelsior. As for never hearing about it "later" in the timeline... need I point out that we also never heard about Genesis after the movies? And technically like the Spore Drive, Genesis Tech worked. Yet we never hear about it in TNG, DS9, or Voyager.

    -Spock/Burnham connection: People ranted about Burnham being Spock's adopted sister. Well... we never knew he had a half brother before ST5 with the reveal of Sybok. And it is established IN CANON that Spock is very private about his family. His best friend James Kirk never knew who Spock's father was until Ambassador Sarek was aboard the Enterprise. And Kirk even says "I know for a FACT you don't have a brother" in Star Trek 5. Spock's answer was "You're right. I don't have a brother. I have a HALF brother". So not only is he private about his family, he's precise. Even without Discovery being classified at the highest level, ask Spock if he has a sister, and he'd say no, because he doesn't have a sister, he as an ADOPTED or FOSTER Sister.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • altston1909#2309 altston1909 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    TAS isn't canon. TOS never showed a holodeck on the Enterprise, but this isn't about holo tech, vulcans had it decades earlier. This is about holocommunication that was literally a new thing in DS9, and something starfleet clearly never imnplemented before. No other show, era or ship prior to that episode showed or hinted at it.

    TMP also shows that the Enterprise viewscreen is holographic, but what's your point. In Discovery, the ships have literal see-trough windows, not holo-effect viewscreen.

    Cloaks in ENT are the result of temporal tampering, but even if not, Spock not being aware of something from a century ago could be feasible, on the other hand, him not being aware of something less than a decade ago isn't. Specially if it was used during a wide-scale war against Starfleet. Only one United Earth ship ever encoutered them and they were used by the Suliban and the Romulans. As I said, Kor mentioned them as being a new tech to the Klingons, later in the timeline, so this is not just about Spock's lack of knowledge.

    It was a thing, but far from being of such cultural importance that a giant ship would have been built and utilized in such a manner. That being said, I will concede this point to you. This can be considered a light recon, it even that and not a mistake.

    Qu'vat colony might have been just one colony, but it was implied that the genetic effects from that event will spread and deeply influence much of the Klingon population (aggressive genes that are probably always dominant during reproduction) From visual evidence from TOS, we can easily say that a large enough segment of the population was affected that there were entire ships with the majority if not entire crews of smooth heads. If Discovery showed even a few, just a few here and there, I could have kinda conceded, but having two shows set only a decade from one another, one showing smooth heads exclusively, other some over the top mutated anti-smoothheads...yeah, no
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,166 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I'm gonna address some of these concerns, at least from my point of view.

    -Klingon Sarcophagus Ship: Was stated to be an OLD ship for one. For another... Klingon culture is just as diverse as our own. While true some groups believe the body is of no consequence, clearly some do care. And talk of The Black Fleet as part of the afterlife is canon. The Sarco seems to honor the idea of The Black Fleet. There's also the practice known as the Ak'voh, where warriors preside over the dead body of a fallen warrior for a time.
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Fleet
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ak'voh

    -Klingon Appearance: While radical in season one, they changed it in season two, which brought it more in line with TNG style Klingons. As for the Augment Virus... it was never revealed just HOW far it had spread through the Empire. So it is plausible to say that not ALL Klingons were affected. And honestly the appearance of the Klingons could be passed off as another ethnic group, or just handwaved because we also have three variations of Andorians.

    -Klingons shaving heads: Eh... could be an ancient practice that was discontinued. After Discovery, the only bald Klingon we see after that is General Chang in Undiscovered Country. By choice, genetics, or ancient tradition... who knows.

    -Klingons with Cloaks: They already explained it as having originated from the Sarco, which herself was an OLD design. While Starfleet has encountered cloaks in the past per Enterprise, citing only TOS is flawed because that is referencing the ROMULAN Cloak. Kor saying Klingon cloaks were new could be referring to their Romulan designed cloaks, which were much better than the older ones they had in the 2250s, which I might add, were rendered useless by data obtained by Discovery and given to Starfleet. Why keep using a flawed cloak your enemy can see through?

    -Starfleet/Klingon Holographic communications: While an oddball choice... it doesn't mean it wasn't experimented with at any point before DS9. And it clearly had flaws in the 23rd Century, which led to it being mothballed until Holographic technology was perfected in the 24th Century. USS Enterprise was pretty much shut down because of it, and Pike ordered it ripped out. Also note that the 23rd Century variant seemed to depict the individuals using it as ghostly, whereas the system used in DS9 didn't.

    -Bridge Windows: Just because we didn't see any doesn't mean they never existed. While Kelvin Timeline based, Star Trek Beyond's USS Franklin shows that Starfleet had been playing around with that style as early as the 22nd Century, before the timeline split in 2233. We just never saw it on mainline ships of the franchise until Discovery. Both versions of the viewscreen have their advantages and disadvantages.

    And just in case anyone wants to bring it up:
    -Spore Drive's existence: No one ever said that Starfleet COULDN'T experiment with new technologies at any point. Clearly the Spore Drive was an attempt at making a new FTL Propulsion System, so... its no different than their later Transwarp experiments with USS Excelsior. As for never hearing about it "later" in the timeline... need I point out that we also never heard about Genesis after the movies? And technically like the Spore Drive, Genesis Tech worked. Yet we never hear about it in TNG, DS9, or Voyager.

    -Spock/Burnham connection: People ranted about Burnham being Spock's adopted sister. Well... we never knew he had a half brother before ST5 with the reveal of Sybok. And it is established IN CANON that Spock is very private about his family. His best friend James Kirk never knew who Spock's father was until Ambassador Sarek was aboard the Enterprise. And Kirk even says "I know for a FACT you don't have a brother" in Star Trek 5. Spock's answer was "You're right. I don't have a brother. I have a HALF brother". So not only is he private about his family, he's precise. Even without Discovery being classified at the highest level, ask Spock if he has a sister, and he'd say no, because he doesn't have a sister, he as an ADOPTED or FOSTER Sister.

    Could you please move this thread to Ten Foward? It's clearly about the show now, not the game.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I'm gonna address some of these concerns, at least from my point of view.

    -Klingon Sarcophagus Ship: Was stated to be an OLD ship for one. For another... Klingon culture is just as diverse as our own. While true some groups believe the body is of no consequence, clearly some do care. And talk of The Black Fleet as part of the afterlife is canon. The Sarco seems to honor the idea of The Black Fleet. There's also the practice known as the Ak'voh, where warriors preside over the dead body of a fallen warrior for a time.
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Fleet
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ak'voh

    -Klingon Appearance: While radical in season one, they changed it in season two, which brought it more in line with TNG style Klingons. As for the Augment Virus... it was never revealed just HOW far it had spread through the Empire. So it is plausible to say that not ALL Klingons were affected. And honestly the appearance of the Klingons could be passed off as another ethnic group, or just handwaved because we also have three variations of Andorians.

    -Klingons shaving heads: Eh... could be an ancient practice that was discontinued. After Discovery, the only bald Klingon we see after that is General Chang in Undiscovered Country. By choice, genetics, or ancient tradition... who knows.

    -Klingons with Cloaks: They already explained it as having originated from the Sarco, which herself was an OLD design. While Starfleet has encountered cloaks in the past per Enterprise, citing only TOS is flawed because that is referencing the ROMULAN Cloak. Kor saying Klingon cloaks were new could be referring to their Romulan designed cloaks, which were much better than the older ones they had in the 2250s, which I might add, were rendered useless by data obtained by Discovery and given to Starfleet. Why keep using a flawed cloak your enemy can see through?

    -Starfleet/Klingon Holographic communications: While an oddball choice... it doesn't mean it wasn't experimented with at any point before DS9. And it clearly had flaws in the 23rd Century, which led to it being mothballed until Holographic technology was perfected in the 24th Century. USS Enterprise was pretty much shut down because of it, and Pike ordered it ripped out. Also note that the 23rd Century variant seemed to depict the individuals using it as ghostly, whereas the system used in DS9 didn't.

    -Bridge Windows: Just because we didn't see any doesn't mean they never existed. While Kelvin Timeline based, Star Trek Beyond's USS Franklin shows that Starfleet had been playing around with that style as early as the 22nd Century, before the timeline split in 2233. We just never saw it on mainline ships of the franchise until Discovery. Both versions of the viewscreen have their advantages and disadvantages.

    And just in case anyone wants to bring it up:
    -Spore Drive's existence: No one ever said that Starfleet COULDN'T experiment with new technologies at any point. Clearly the Spore Drive was an attempt at making a new FTL Propulsion System, so... its no different than their later Transwarp experiments with USS Excelsior. As for never hearing about it "later" in the timeline... need I point out that we also never heard about Genesis after the movies? And technically like the Spore Drive, Genesis Tech worked. Yet we never hear about it in TNG, DS9, or Voyager.

    -Spock/Burnham connection: People ranted about Burnham being Spock's adopted sister. Well... we never knew he had a half brother before ST5 with the reveal of Sybok. And it is established IN CANON that Spock is very private about his family. His best friend James Kirk never knew who Spock's father was until Ambassador Sarek was aboard the Enterprise. And Kirk even says "I know for a FACT you don't have a brother" in Star Trek 5. Spock's answer was "You're right. I don't have a brother. I have a HALF brother". So not only is he private about his family, he's precise. Even without Discovery being classified at the highest level, ask Spock if he has a sister, and he'd say no, because he doesn't have a sister, he as an ADOPTED or FOSTER Sister.

    When you have power over the franchise that created Warp and even Quantum Slipstream...why use a form of propulsion that gets on everyone's thrupnies? Have fun with Warp! Give up Warp 13 200-years before it should be possible, but not something that essentially makes it a new franchise. It should have belonged in the next Earth: Final Conflict, not Star Trek.

    You've got Warp...but you don't use it. You actually grind it into the ground by creating "The Burn", almost as if it's affronting, because you want to do something wonky and unpleasant.
  • altston1909#2309 altston1909 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    @ somtaawkhar

    No, TAS is not canon, never was, only one episode was ever considered as such. Or are you telling me the Bonaventure was the first Warp capable ship canonically. If CBS canonsed it in recent years, then they've opened a huge can of worms with that...Interestingly, you cire Gene's novel (non-canon) as a source of information, while completely ignoring his attitude towards TAS which he never accepted as canon (Except for one episode).

    latest?cb=20200616010929&path-prefix=en

    Romulan involvement in TCW was never established, so you can't say they were or weren't a part of it. Also, the Suliban future guy was supposed to be a Romulan, but since it also wasn't established, it is not canon, I will grant you that. In any case, the Romulan cloak in ENT can be rectified more easily with other Trek than the Klingon one in DIS but at the end of the day BOTH are mistakes and one doesn't justify the other. In fact, the Romulan cloak in ENT is one of the show's biggest canon violations to this day.

    And this whole discussion makes my point perfectly, you had to draw from multiple shows, multiple episodes across multiple seasons, just to argue for the mistakes Discovery made in it's first two episodes, first two. And they are just the tip of the iceberg

    I believe it would be more prudent to continue this over PMs because it is getting off topic here.
  • edited May 2021
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  • navar#3536 navar Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    When it comes to people dictating what is or is not canon...NO! There is no bias in locking a thread when it descends into a whinge-fest, which it nearly always does. If folk can't accept DSC is canon, they can express their opinion, but they cannot go around saying something isn't canon. CBS is GOD when it comes to all things Star Trek, not the public. That's not to say CBS doesn't listen, because they did. There's also nothing in DSC that broke canon either, and that's simply because there's literally NOTHING to go off between ENT and TOS.

    The ONLY thing that wound me up about DSC was the minority refusing to accept the 'updated visuals' in DSC. If TOS was made now, it would indeed have touchscreens! :lol:

    The ONLY thing I didn't like about DSC was the Spore Drive, but everything else has been fantastic.

    To be fair, the visuals were even more future tech that TNG, which irks me a bit. I for one would love to see the original shows get a complete remake. Same script, new actors with today's upgraded tech/visuals. I would absolutely watch those if they did. Also, anything that was awkward (like getting rid of that awkward unnatural tilt of the ship as it zips through space, or saying, "warp factor 9" instead of saying warp 9. And if there is anything that breaks canon, fix that as well.

    I think it would be a hit...at least it would be a hit for me.
  • altston1909#2309 altston1909 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    No, it has not been supported by past canon, as your responses continued, you responded to less and less points. Defending mistakes with mistakes is not supporting something. Only TOS happened? Yeah, I never mentioned any other show...

    You never responded to the window, just stating something about holo-effect viewscreens, that's not a window. The ones used in discovery are clearly windows...why? Why? Well cool visuals are more important than common logic...a problem with the entire entertainment industry.

    Holo-comms? Put aside that it is something new in DS9. Not to mention that you would have to have a ship filled with emitters (Prometheus was revolutionary for having holo emitters outside the holodeck and sickbay allowing the EMH to operate more freely) The stupid scene where the Admiral from the Europa is looking around the Shenzhou bridge, ordering around the crew. So what, he has the entire bridge from another ship projected around him?

    The cloak is a mistake, both in discovery and enterprise. Just because enterprise made it, it doesn't mean the dicovery had to also. There were other ways, more creative ways to accomplish a similar narrative...but then again, it would take talent to do it, find a smart workaround.

    Two Federation ships having 10000 drones, shuttles and smallcraft that all go pew-pew-pew at the bad ships! That's Trek! Why? Why not just have a few more ships that warp in and help. Why do the small dot pew-pew swarm? Why end on some over the top space battle when two ships vs 3-4 smaller ships would have done the trick. But no, it has to be a giant pew-pew

    Starfleet scientist genetically creating the rapidly procreating Tribbles? No...Phlox didn't have one at all, explicitly referencing their rapid procreation a 100 years before that.

    Starfleet scientist having time travelling space suits decades before TOS. Yeah, that's respecting established levels of tech and research of that era.

    As I can see from the quote, the Future guy being Archer was ONE of the possible ideas, not the only nor the final one. Just the most interesting one according to Braga.

    Discovery simply tries (and too often fails) to shove far too much into canon in too shot a time. You name various shows doing various things in many different points of their run. Discovery does just as much in a few episodes or one season. Might as have call it Star Trek Forced Shoehorn. The writers either have a superficial knowledge of canon or they just don't care. I would be willing to bet that most references came from like...one of them or they did some research like a day earlier, clearly not knowing enough.

    Visually it's out of place completely (and don't give me that bullcr*p you can't show 60ties aesthetic, if you are not prepared to, don't place your show in that era. TNG respected it (Relics), DS9 respected it (Trials and Tribbleations), ENT respected it (In a Mirror Darkly)) Why go the the pre-TOS era when you have no intention of working within it's limitations and completely removing any suspension of disbelief? Go 26th century, have all the holograms and jump drives you want. But hey, you couldn't cash in on the good old memberberries then. Well you could, but it would take talent and creativity. I'm not saying I want a new show that looks like the 60ties, I don't but if you are not planning to respect it then don't do shows in that time period, simple!

    Narrative wise it's also out of place. Trek lives in a different format and while it can have a larger multi season back story (DS9 ENT and VOY), it needs to be built on self contained stories. If you can't do that, do something original and don't try to leech of the Trek name. It can have total TRIBBLE of a story, but it's for one week, next week can be brilliant. This show always ends up a season long, not too interesting story that seems like it's being made up as they shoot it, filled with mystery boxes, half of them leading nowhere...other half filled with plot holes.

    You want a reboot? Fine, do what JJ did, alternate reality, do what you want. But then again, you would have less hype...

    Where to start science-wise? Yeah, Voyager did far too many scientific stretches, misunderstanding terms like quantum singularities etc...but at least we didn't have the brilliant "Time crystals" God...what were they? 5? At least call them Temporal Crystals or I don't know, Chrono-Lattice Crystals...something. Time crystals...c'mon. Or what, s simple light beacon instantly alerting various ships in various places light years away which all then warp in at the same time, sure...speed of light anyone? Sonar in space? Shooting stars in space?That's JJ level of scientific knowledge. But hey, the power of math, right? All of this is just a tiny scratch on the surface of it.

    This show compiled all the worst aspects of mostly VOY and ENT, and some other shows displaying almost non of their strengths.

    If you enjoy the show, good for you, I hope you get many many good moments. If you can seamlessly blend this with the rest of the trek and you see no contradictions, no narrative problems, no scientific problems with all your disbelief suspended. If you see just as many problems within classic Trek and this, also, good for you, have fun, enjoy.

    I am personally tired of these discussions. The third season of this show was the last one I will ever watch because I just lost any emotion towards it. I really don't know why I got into this.

    Do not expect any further response from me, it just won't lead anywhere.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,588 Community Moderator
    Moved the whole thread to Ten Forward. Don't wanna try to split the thread honestly.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,841 Arc User
    edited May 2021
    The official published stance on TAS as far back as the mid 1980s was that it IS canon, with the caveat that anything done live action automatically prevails when there is a conflict (Paramount did not want to be held to anything it would be too expensive or impossible to do in live action that was featured in the animated show).

    The myth about it being non-canon was because of one of Roddenberry's infamous rants during the time he was essentially shut out of the movie production after TMP, where he said that he did not consider anything he was not directly involved in canon. That included parts of the third season of TOS, all of TAS, and every movie after TMP (TNG was not yet on the horizon btw and he was really irked at Paramount movie division). However he cooled off and recanted the statement about a week or two later, but like the Internet, anything once put out in the fan community tends to stay no matter how one tries to get rid of it.

    The problems with DSC are very numerous, but if Kurtzman's team was not boxed in by contempt for TOS (and not at all clever or subtle on top of it), they could have arranged that multitude so that they solve each other.

    Two prime candidates for that are the JJwindows and the Sarc cloak. A few words of dialog could establish Shenzhou as a planetary survey ship capable of landing on the surface, the windows and the placement of the bridge make perfect sense for that role.

    Then they run into the cloak and the Klingon ships keep dropping off the sensors (even the passive ones) but someone could notice that they are still visible visually to some extent (it could be a "living mind" thing like FTL navigation in Andromeda), but they have to get very close and fire weapons by eye without a lock (which also takes care of their truly execrable gunnery at laughably short range by TOS (and ENT) standards problem). All the screen-based ships in the battle get destroyed because they cannot get a lock on anything and they don't have direct vision windows that can be used to aim with.

    The logical response would be to dredge up all of the ships that are designed to spend most of their time in a star system studying things with a conveniently close by sun where a window makes at least a little sense on it (and of course that can defend themselves) and send them into the war (which brings in why they would send a pure science ship like Discovery with its little pew-pew pulse phasers and keep a heavily armed tank of a battlecruiser like Enterprise out of the war zones because it would be effectively blind to the enemy until Discovery figured out working countermeasures with their jumping around stunt keeping them alive long enough to pull it off. And since the Romulan cloak is completely different that could lead to the situation in Balance of Terror without stretching believability too far.

    Instead they let their contempt for TOS get in the way and seemed to do as much to contradict TOS as possible, even putting a line in the pilot that would rule out the 2240s war the Constitution class was designed for as being against the Klingons.

    And TOS contempt is a real thing btw, cultural studies scholars were writing as far back as the 1980s about how Star Trek was almost unique in the weird phenomenon of fans of a spinoff series (and movies) having nothing but contempt for the original they were spun off from, where usually it is the spinoff that is the target of distain.

    The problem with holographic communication was not a matter of not having the projectors to show them (in fact they refer to holograms several times in TOS in ways that imply that they look very real. In Catspaw Kirk and the landing party thinks someone is pranking them with a holoprojection of the Macbeth witches, and when they find that the photonic Losira is a hologram they seem to be more troubled by the fact that she can touch things than that she looks so real.

    Also Mcoy's daughter was to be joining the crew in the fourth season and a humorous subthread was supposed to be the annoying (to Bones) holographic letters his ex-wife would keep sending him fishing for information about their daughter and trying to convince him to get her to go back to Earth. They planned to film the "holographic letters" on this little out of the way patio that didn't get much use since way back when it was RKO pictures.

    Anyway, the problem with holocommunication in TOS was that an important part of the concept was that the ship was too far out for any kind of realtime two-way communication most of the time (so the weight of decisions would fall on the captain's shoulders, not just get kicked upstairs to HQ all the time), though they were able to sometimes. Technically they were using holographics then because the screens were holographic and showed depth behind the plane of the screen.

    If they really wanted to do an updated TOS era show they could have if they actually started with TOS instead of The Undiscovered Country and the Kelvin movies. Overall, Kurtzman's team reminds me of a saying by G.K. Chesterton: “It isn’t that they cannot find the solution. It is that they cannot see the problem.”
    Post edited by phoenixc#0738 on
  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    eldarion79 wrote: »
    I will not be drawn into an discussion that will probably result in my own ban nor do I have the time to cite 1% of their canon problems (for just the pilot episode.) but just for the fun of it, have a few of the more glaring ones:

    Klingon Sarcophagus ship (they do not care for the bodies of the dead)
    Klingon appearance even though they should be mostly affected by the augment virus and be smootheads (not the mention the awful redesign)
    Klingons shaving their heads in war time
    Klingons with cloaks before Balance of Terror (Kor said it was brand spanking new much later in the timeline, Spock confused by it having it be only be a theoretical prior to the Balance of Terror encounter)
    Starfleet holographic communication (it's supposed to be brand new, cutting edge in DS9, episode "For the Uniform" if I'm not mistaken)
    Bridge windows (they were never ever windows in prime timeline, only in the JJ-mystery box timeline)

    This are just some of the stuff from the pilot episodes. Please find me any other Trek pilot with more continuity problems.

    1. Klingon Sarcophagus Ship- That is your opinion
    2. Klingon appearance issues - That is a recurring theme is Trek, Klingons have been re-designed several times and I imagine there will be more redesigns in future series
    3. Cultural and societal differences occur all the time, especially separated by generations. 1900s fashion vs 2020s fashion are very different. Back in the 70s and 80s, clean shaven was the norm and now beards are everywhere.
    4. It is a form of stealth technology, this is speculation on whether all of the Klingon empire employed it
    5. In the intervening hundred years, we have seen Starfleet ships do spectacular things and holographic communication crosses that line?
    6. We've never seen a head on Star Trek, I gather they use the three seashells. Besides, in First Contact they used a holographic wall to hide the viewscreen, why can't they have window shutters for the bridge?

    I suppose I've always believed that the designers wanted to stamp their mark over everything. The ship designs, the look of the Klingons, a new form of propulsion and just didn't care what came before. They wanted to do their own thing, with the Star Trek brand and that was that.

    "Klingons look like that? No, I've got a design idea for their look that I'm going to use, but I want to call them Klingons instead of creating a new race that no one's heard of, so get over it."

    "Warp? Nah, I've got an idea for something totally different than Trek has ever used and might really compromise what came before, but I'm in control now and I'll do what I want."

    That's true of everything in Discovery. They wanted to do their own thing in everything, even if it means not using the selling points they already had to begin with, without creating anything new.

    It always puts me in mind of when a new team arrive on a beloved food stuff, "New Improved Recipe" on a classic, even when it was a classic and didn't need a new recipe. Discovery is a bit like a Fray Bentos tinned pie, which now has a strange taste to it.
  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    I personally dislike the premise of Discovery, but maybe if the show was episodic. The biggest downfall of series over the past 20-years have been seasonal stories and a forced cliff-hanger at the end of each episode. The great thing about Star Trek was in every series, there were some ropey episodes, but then they were over. You could just forget about them. When you don't like the idea behind a whole season though, it doesn't give you anywhere to go.

    Look at the difference between Stargate SG-1 and Universe. There were some great episodes of SG-1, but Universe was one great big episode, which didn't have the magic and the joy of even a single episode of SG-1...to me personally! V did it too and individual episodes gave a great writer a chance to shine, a not so great one the chance to hide out between some good ones, but in serial Star Trek...I'm never convinced that the entire season is planned. You then have such different writing and directing styles on each episode, so they don't really flow. If there was one writer, like J. Michael Straczynski wrote every episode of season five of B5, which was serial, then it could work. Discovery just has too many cooks.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    Then there is the issue with the name. Discovery should be about discovery and yet it goes from one problem to another. Any discovery is a side effect of dealing with problems rather than their raison d'être.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,588 Community Moderator
    Uh... what?
    Discovery is the name of the ship. Not the purpose of the show. That sounds a lot like complaining that Voyager was not about the voyage because they keep running into problems of the week.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Uh... what?
    Discovery is the name of the ship. Not the purpose of the show. That sounds a lot like complaining that Voyager was not about the voyage because they keep running into problems of the week.

    A name is sometimes more than just a name, it can be a symbol. It can encompass the hopes and desires of the crew of the ship. Calling a ship Einstein or Newton would show the desires of the crew to be for scientific research while calling a ship Patton or some other general would show the desires of the crew to be for warfare. Star Trek is partially about the discovery of the unknown or at least until recently.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,588 Community Moderator
    I'm aware of assigning meaning to a name. But we also have to consider how previous shows were named. For the most part they were named after the setting, starting with DS9.

    Deep Space Nine was mostly about the Dominion War, and life aboard a frontier space station. We don't really get any of that from the name.

    IMO if a show is named after the ship or station that is central to that series... there doesn't need to be any special meaning to it other than "this show is about this ship/station and its crew". Discovery is no different than Enterprise, Voyager, or Deep Space Nine in that regard. Strange New Worlds will be the first show since Next Generation to break that track of naming the show after the ship.

    As for what Star Trek is about... that has pretty much grown over the decades until its basically an umbrella for an entire universe full of stories to tell. Not just stories of science, exploration, and discovery, but adventure, mystery... and yes even war. Star Trek is more of a setting now that allows for stories to be told. It establishes the technology and politics. You set a story in the Star Trek universe, expect Warp Drive, phasers, Federation, Klingons... things like that. It doesn't necessarily mean it MUST be about science and exploration. A franchise like Star Trek is big enough to be able to touch on a lot of different subjects within the setting of the universe. And there are MANY stories to tell.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,460 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    A name is sometimes more than just a name, it can be a symbol.
    On the other hand, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Or was Enterprise supposed to be about starting a small business? Or perhaps a rental-car company?
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    A name is sometimes more than just a name, it can be a symbol.
    On the other hand, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Or was Enterprise supposed to be about starting a small business? Or perhaps a rental-car company?


    And sometimes words have different meanings. 'Enterprise' was quite literally aptly chosen -- just not your rental-car company: 'a project or undertaking, especially a bold or complex one.' As in, to boldly go where no man has gone before.
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,166 Arc User
    > @starkaos said:
    Star Trek is partially about the discovery of the unknown or at least until recently.

    Strange New Worlds, my friend. Classic Trek will be back again "soon". And it can't come soon enough :)

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,460 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    A name is sometimes more than just a name, it can be a symbol.
    On the other hand, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Or was Enterprise supposed to be about starting a small business? Or perhaps a rental-car company?


    And sometimes words have different meanings. 'Enterprise' was quite literally aptly chosen -- just not your rental-car company: 'a project or undertaking, especially a bold or complex one.' As in, to boldly go where no man has gone before.
    And the Discovery discovered a way to stabilize the DASH drive, then discovered a parallel universe, then discovered its captain was from that universe, then discovered the alien sphere, then discovered that the sphere's data was being sought by a rogue AI for the purpose of eliminating all organic life, then discovered a way to time-jump 930 years into the future to make that irrelevant, then discovered what caused the Burn and how to get around that...
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
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