That's a problem with Discovery, all they do is toss money at it...the makeup and special effects get a lot of care...if only they put that half the effort they do into those into writing and care of canon it could be a great show....
Instead it's all about pew pew die die die
Nowadays, action sells (to the masses). Sex sells (despite the hypocrisy; to the masses). Inclusiveness sort of sells (it avoids bad press at least, even if half-arsed). Occasional 30 minute long stints of scientifically figuring out how to stop a freak space anomaly from destroying a local world? Too academic (for the masses).
If it isn't immediately engaging, you can forget about modern audience retention. It works in a theater because the movie creators made people pay to get there and watch without distractions. Doesn't quite work the same on the couch, when dinner is also being prepped and the kids are begging you to let them play their video games.
As a Millennial myself, I prefer campy stuff like TOS, Batman (Adam West), Reeves Superman, over the more serious stuff, I'm also not big fan of action stuff myself and personally I don't mind if characters talk or think things out, bring in the more academic stuff and sex appeal, I don't care how skimpy the outfits are or how much skin is shown just it bring in, you pointed out what Hollywood thinks we want but in reality most Millennials like myself would rather have great content with good storytelling and great characters like what Anime and Manga provides.
West's Batman and those early Superman movies were certainly campy, though to be fair it was not too much of an exaggeration of the comics themselves, back then in the silver and early bronze age of comics DC tended to be a bit campy compared to the deadpan seriousness that Marvel liked to do back then. The villain version of Dr. Light was a great example of that when he tended to forget what he was talking about during soliloquies and whatnot.
I am not sure what you are referring to as campy in regard to TOS though. A lot of people seem to think that production values like outdated special effects make something campy but that is not what camp is unless the production is deliberately done to look like it uses older effects technology as a way of lampooning something from an earlier time. It wasn't a lampoon in TOS, the SFX were movie-grade for the time, which is the main reason the show was always strapped for cash as so much of their budget was eaten by SFX costs.
To be fair, campiness is mostly based in humor, irony, and lightheartedness which TOS does as well to a large degree, but the nuances are totally different between the two (usually anyway, a few episodes did verge on camp).
A lot of the humorous irony in TOS was Kirk's viewpoint coming across, he had little patience for pompousness, political maneuvering, and even regulations beyond a certain point and would go through the motions when required with a rather ironic air, and was amused when the officious numbskulls he had to deal with (like Councilor Yuri) did not pick up on what he was doing.
The difference is that instead of the actors poking fun at the source material and general setting from a viewer perspective (like the way those Batman and Superman shows did), Kirk was directing it at a particular character or characters in the story from a perspective fully contained in the character's viewpoint. The same is true of the other regulars though to a lesser extent, and Bones did lampshade the conventions a bit from time to time, though not enough to call it campy.
On the whole it tended to be more avant garde for its time than anything else, pushing boundaries that many of which have drifted back into place in the post-modern, uptight, self-consciousness that characterizes the stereotype of generation-x (and through that the more conventional and "grounded" aspects of Hollywood culture), which I suppose could be mistaken for campiness.
TRIBBLE is trash, period. Cryptic push it making most of TRIBBLE related gear and traits op. We know who pull the strings so why the surprise?
Hahaha
S
T
D
becomes "tribble". Man, this forum...
@rattler2 already pointed out that under the FCT thread, the use of that acronym to get around the forum censor is a form of gatekeeping. You probably haven't even looked through this entire thread.
It seems like a 50/50 (maybe more like 60/40) that people in this thread get that there are those that dislike Discovery & Cryptic for spending almost 3 years of the game's development on a story arc based off of it when other series haven't even gotten near as long of a focus. People are being mostly civil about the discussion.
I don't consider Discovery a part of Star Trek. Completely avoiding Disco content in game, trying to forget I watched the TV show or that it ever existed. Awful experience and a good attempt to kill the franchise.
The situation with DSC is complex. Moonves was not trying to kill it even though he doesn't like Star Trek and especially detests TOS. What he wanted to do was use the NAME "Star Trek" to boot CBSAA into profitability but not produce more of the "intellectual (insert derisive expletive here)" that he considered Trek to be.
If he could have he would have simply made Kelvin Trek (and as movies instead of a series) but he could not do that because of legal issues, so they danced around those IP issues as close as they could get without the risk rising too high and swapped in elements of The Undiscovered Country (the movie that Roddenberry had the most objections to) to lower the points of similarity a bit. Unfortunately, even though he left CBS, DSC was already locked into those early choices and the damage control since has been, well..., shall we say less than elegant at best.
What Moonves would never have done would be to deliberately make a bad show with the express purpose of killing one of the companies potentially biggest assets no matter how much he hated it, that would have been career suicide. Unfortunately his ego-fueled games and distaste for science-fiction did damage it and split the fanbase, but he probably thought that bringing in the action movie fans who made the Kelvin movies briefly popular would balance out the loss of a lot of the old fans.
As for PIC, it is in a very awkward position of not being nonstop action enough for a lot of the Kelvin fans but neither is it close enough to TNG (both in the style/feel/depth sense and the compatibility one) to pull in a lot of the Berman era fans for the long haul either. The Numeris rating in Canada (where the show is on the Space channel and so the viewership numbers are more available for analysis) reflect that, with a high initial interest followed by a sharper, larger decline than average.
In the pilot of season 5, could Braxton just show up, blast Discovery with his temporal disruptor/Annorax ship-esque weapon, erase them from history and it just be another incursion the Temporal Integrity Commission correct?
In the pilot of season 5, could Braxton just show up, blast Discovery with his temporal disruptor/Annorax ship-esque weapon, erase them from history and it just be another incursion the Temporal Integrity Commission correct?
Honestly, I wouldn't hold it against him.
Congrats; you just helped CBS keep Disco fresh and also bring in more espionage drama for their S31 series.
S31 is involved via the Guardian of Forever dragging Georgiou back to save the Discovery and her friend Burnham, and S31 going full on espionage across time to stop the erasure of the Discovery with the Guardian's reluctant assistance (because the alternative would be worse, whatever it is). Which then conveniently leads to renewed Temporal Accords preventing more time travel trouble signed in 32c, with Discovery present and all files pertaining to enabling time travel completely erased, including the knowledge of the Red Angel suit and its systems.
I'm probably going to get zapped for saying this myself, but I can't help but notice any thread that's at all critical of Discovery gets locked or deleted. And anyone who makes a criticism of the show, even when it's a polite and intelligent reply or comment, gets banned.
I know that Cryptic is at the mercy of CBS and Discovery is CBS' pride and joy, but I do think we should be able to express an opinion, especially if they help to make changes for the better in Discovery.
My understanding is that they will make content along side current TV show/Movies. so Disco is getting heavy content when compaired to all other content. you'll also find Picard Show content increes other the next year or two.
For anyone that wonders why these threads get locked, look no further then this example.
Simply put, it's posts like this that remove any hint of civil discussion and plummet threads like this into ruin. Now, this is an obvious attempt to bait someone into an angry reply to get this thread closed, and I am not going to fall for it, just simply pointing it out as an example. This is a common tactic used by those that dislike something but either don't have enough logical reasons to support their argument or are simply incapable of properly representing those ideas on a cohesive manner. When that happens, the easiest way is to just spew vitriol hoping to flare reactions and get the thread shut down.
This tactic usually works.
I dont consider Disco Cannon. as they have stated that the reasion the show is so different is that it has to be 25% plus different form trek cannon. No, they didn't. That was John Eaves talking about his personal design goals for the look of the Ent-Nil specifically in DSC. -- WingedHussar its to far from cannon and breaks it. but i just go with the flow. Dont watch the show but will play STO as its all I have.
For anyone that wonders why these threads get locked, look no further then this example.
Simply put, it's posts like this that remove any hint of civil discussion and plummet threads like this into ruin. Now, this is an obvious attempt to bait someone into an angry reply to get this thread closed, and I am not going to fall for it, just simply pointing it out as an example. This is a common tactic used by those that dislike something but either don't have enough logical reasons to support their argument or are simply incapable of properly representing those ideas on a cohesive manner. When that happens, the easiest way is to just spew vitriol hoping to flare reactions and get the thread shut down.
This tactic usually works.
I dont consider Disco Cannon. as they have stated that the reasion the show is so different is that it has to be 25% plus different form trek cannon. its to far from cannon and breaks it. but i just go with the flow. Dont watch the show but will play STO as its all I have.
Sorry to disappoint, but that 25% myth was a misunderstanding from John Eaves. Well that's the awesomeness of Head Canon, you can pick and choose what you feel is Star Trek. The Official Canon is that Discovery, Picard, Lower Decks, Prodigy, Strange New Worlds, and The Animated Series are all canon. Granted they may retcon or play loose with the Canon (Not a new thing in Trek).
...they have stated that the reasion the show is so different is that it has to be 25% plus different form trek cannon
I think you are confused. They did ask John Eaves to changed the design of the Enterprise itself (no idea why) but that was only about the ship itself, not the show.
Comparing discovery's disregard for canon (or better yet, total canon destruction) to any of the classic trek's is like comparing a paper cut to a limb amputation.
Even Enterprise , the "worst offender" before Kurzman's "Trek" doesn't come close. FYI, I enjoyed and supported Enterprise back in the day. I do not support the current "Trek". Well, Lower Decks at least tries HARD, everything else...you can feel it's made by people that neither care nor know the canon.
I'm probably going to get zapped for saying this myself, but I can't help but notice any thread that's at all critical of Discovery gets locked or deleted. And anyone who makes a criticism of the show, even when it's a polite and intelligent reply or comment, gets banned.
I know that Cryptic is at the mercy of CBS and Discovery is CBS' pride and joy, but I do think we should be able to express an opinion, especially if they help to make changes for the better in Discovery.
My understanding is that they will make content along side current TV show/Movies. so Disco is getting heavy content when compaired to all other content. you'll also find Picard Show content increes other the next year or two.
Apart from Seven and her pistols, have we really had that much Picard in STO? Well, the La Sirena, but it's the worst of the raiders.
Comparing discovery's disregard for canon (or better yet, total canon destruction) to any of the classic trek's is like comparing a paper cut to a limb amputation.
Even Enterprise , the "worst offender" before Kurzman's "Trek" doesn't come close. FYI, I enjoyed and supported Enterprise back in the day. I do not support the current "Trek". Well, Lower Decks at least tries HARD, everything else...you can feel it's made by people that neither care nor know the canon.
Can please site examples of Discovery's disregard for canon or canon destruction. If you don't think Classic Trek is pretty bad, then you haven't been looking.
I will not be drawn into an discussion that will probably result in my own ban nor do I have the time to cite 1% of their canon problems (for just the pilot episode.) but just for the fun of it, have a few of the more glaring ones:
Klingon Sarcophagus ship (they do not care for the bodies of the dead)
Klingon appearance even though they should be mostly affected by the augment virus and be smootheads (not the mention the awful redesign)
Klingons shaving their heads in war time
Klingons with cloaks before Balance of Terror (Kor said it was brand spanking new much later in the timeline, Spock confused by it having it be only be a theoretical prior to the Balance of Terror encounter)
Starfleet holographic communication (it's supposed to be brand new, cutting edge in DS9, episode "For the Uniform" if I'm not mistaken)
Bridge windows (they were never ever windows in prime timeline, only in the JJ-mystery box timeline)
This are just some of the stuff from the pilot episodes. Please find me any other Trek pilot with more continuity problems.
I will not be drawn into an discussion that will probably result in my own ban nor do I have the time to cite 1% of their canon problems (for just the pilot episode.) but just for the fun of it, have a few of the more glaring ones:
Klingon Sarcophagus ship (they do not care for the bodies of the dead)
Klingon appearance even though they should be mostly affected by the augment virus and be smootheads (not the mention the awful redesign)
Klingons shaving their heads in war time
Klingons with cloaks before Balance of Terror (Kor said it was brand spanking new much later in the timeline, Spock confused by it having it be only be a theoretical prior to the Balance of Terror encounter)
Starfleet holographic communication (it's supposed to be brand new, cutting edge in DS9, episode "For the Uniform" if I'm not mistaken)
Bridge windows (they were never ever windows in prime timeline, only in the JJ-mystery box timeline)
This are just some of the stuff from the pilot episodes. Please find me any other Trek pilot with more continuity problems.
1. Klingon Sarcophagus Ship- That is your opinion
2. Klingon appearance issues - That is a recurring theme is Trek, Klingons have been re-designed several times and I imagine there will be more redesigns in future series
3. Cultural and societal differences occur all the time, especially separated by generations. 1900s fashion vs 2020s fashion are very different. Back in the 70s and 80s, clean shaven was the norm and now beards are everywhere.
4. It is a form of stealth technology, this is speculation on whether all of the Klingon empire employed it
5. In the intervening hundred years, we have seen Starfleet ships do spectacular things and holographic communication crosses that line?
6. We've never seen a head on Star Trek, I gather they use the three seashells. Besides, in First Contact they used a holographic wall to hide the viewscreen, why can't they have window shutters for the bridge?
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,434Community Moderator
I'm gonna address some of these concerns, at least from my point of view.
-Klingon Sarcophagus Ship: Was stated to be an OLD ship for one. For another... Klingon culture is just as diverse as our own. While true some groups believe the body is of no consequence, clearly some do care. And talk of The Black Fleet as part of the afterlife is canon. The Sarco seems to honor the idea of The Black Fleet. There's also the practice known as the Ak'voh, where warriors preside over the dead body of a fallen warrior for a time. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Fleet https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ak'voh
-Klingon Appearance: While radical in season one, they changed it in season two, which brought it more in line with TNG style Klingons. As for the Augment Virus... it was never revealed just HOW far it had spread through the Empire. So it is plausible to say that not ALL Klingons were affected. And honestly the appearance of the Klingons could be passed off as another ethnic group, or just handwaved because we also have three variations of Andorians.
-Klingons shaving heads: Eh... could be an ancient practice that was discontinued. After Discovery, the only bald Klingon we see after that is General Chang in Undiscovered Country. By choice, genetics, or ancient tradition... who knows.
-Klingons with Cloaks: They already explained it as having originated from the Sarco, which herself was an OLD design. While Starfleet has encountered cloaks in the past per Enterprise, citing only TOS is flawed because that is referencing the ROMULAN Cloak. Kor saying Klingon cloaks were new could be referring to their Romulan designed cloaks, which were much better than the older ones they had in the 2250s, which I might add, were rendered useless by data obtained by Discovery and given to Starfleet. Why keep using a flawed cloak your enemy can see through?
-Starfleet/Klingon Holographic communications: While an oddball choice... it doesn't mean it wasn't experimented with at any point before DS9. And it clearly had flaws in the 23rd Century, which led to it being mothballed until Holographic technology was perfected in the 24th Century. USS Enterprise was pretty much shut down because of it, and Pike ordered it ripped out. Also note that the 23rd Century variant seemed to depict the individuals using it as ghostly, whereas the system used in DS9 didn't.
-Bridge Windows: Just because we didn't see any doesn't mean they never existed. While Kelvin Timeline based, Star Trek Beyond's USS Franklin shows that Starfleet had been playing around with that style as early as the 22nd Century, before the timeline split in 2233. We just never saw it on mainline ships of the franchise until Discovery. Both versions of the viewscreen have their advantages and disadvantages.
And just in case anyone wants to bring it up:
-Spore Drive's existence: No one ever said that Starfleet COULDN'T experiment with new technologies at any point. Clearly the Spore Drive was an attempt at making a new FTL Propulsion System, so... its no different than their later Transwarp experiments with USS Excelsior. As for never hearing about it "later" in the timeline... need I point out that we also never heard about Genesis after the movies? And technically like the Spore Drive, Genesis Tech worked. Yet we never hear about it in TNG, DS9, or Voyager.
-Spock/Burnham connection: People ranted about Burnham being Spock's adopted sister. Well... we never knew he had a half brother before ST5 with the reveal of Sybok. And it is established IN CANON that Spock is very private about his family. His best friend James Kirk never knew who Spock's father was until Ambassador Sarek was aboard the Enterprise. And Kirk even says "I know for a FACT you don't have a brother" in Star Trek 5. Spock's answer was "You're right. I don't have a brother. I have a HALF brother". So not only is he private about his family, he's precise. Even without Discovery being classified at the highest level, ask Spock if he has a sister, and he'd say no, because he doesn't have a sister, he as an ADOPTED or FOSTER Sister.
TAS isn't canon. TOS never showed a holodeck on the Enterprise, but this isn't about holo tech, vulcans had it decades earlier. This is about holocommunication that was literally a new thing in DS9, and something starfleet clearly never imnplemented before. No other show, era or ship prior to that episode showed or hinted at it.
TMP also shows that the Enterprise viewscreen is holographic, but what's your point. In Discovery, the ships have literal see-trough windows, not holo-effect viewscreen.
Cloaks in ENT are the result of temporal tampering, but even if not, Spock not being aware of something from a century ago could be feasible, on the other hand, him not being aware of something less than a decade ago isn't. Specially if it was used during a wide-scale war against Starfleet. Only one United Earth ship ever encoutered them and they were used by the Suliban and the Romulans. As I said, Kor mentioned them as being a new tech to the Klingons, later in the timeline, so this is not just about Spock's lack of knowledge.
It was a thing, but far from being of such cultural importance that a giant ship would have been built and utilized in such a manner. That being said, I will concede this point to you. This can be considered a light recon, it even that and not a mistake.
Qu'vat colony might have been just one colony, but it was implied that the genetic effects from that event will spread and deeply influence much of the Klingon population (aggressive genes that are probably always dominant during reproduction) From visual evidence from TOS, we can easily say that a large enough segment of the population was affected that there were entire ships with the majority if not entire crews of smooth heads. If Discovery showed even a few, just a few here and there, I could have kinda conceded, but having two shows set only a decade from one another, one showing smooth heads exclusively, other some over the top mutated anti-smoothheads...yeah, no
I'm gonna address some of these concerns, at least from my point of view.
-Klingon Sarcophagus Ship: Was stated to be an OLD ship for one. For another... Klingon culture is just as diverse as our own. While true some groups believe the body is of no consequence, clearly some do care. And talk of The Black Fleet as part of the afterlife is canon. The Sarco seems to honor the idea of The Black Fleet. There's also the practice known as the Ak'voh, where warriors preside over the dead body of a fallen warrior for a time. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Fleet https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ak'voh
-Klingon Appearance: While radical in season one, they changed it in season two, which brought it more in line with TNG style Klingons. As for the Augment Virus... it was never revealed just HOW far it had spread through the Empire. So it is plausible to say that not ALL Klingons were affected. And honestly the appearance of the Klingons could be passed off as another ethnic group, or just handwaved because we also have three variations of Andorians.
-Klingons shaving heads: Eh... could be an ancient practice that was discontinued. After Discovery, the only bald Klingon we see after that is General Chang in Undiscovered Country. By choice, genetics, or ancient tradition... who knows.
-Klingons with Cloaks: They already explained it as having originated from the Sarco, which herself was an OLD design. While Starfleet has encountered cloaks in the past per Enterprise, citing only TOS is flawed because that is referencing the ROMULAN Cloak. Kor saying Klingon cloaks were new could be referring to their Romulan designed cloaks, which were much better than the older ones they had in the 2250s, which I might add, were rendered useless by data obtained by Discovery and given to Starfleet. Why keep using a flawed cloak your enemy can see through?
-Starfleet/Klingon Holographic communications: While an oddball choice... it doesn't mean it wasn't experimented with at any point before DS9. And it clearly had flaws in the 23rd Century, which led to it being mothballed until Holographic technology was perfected in the 24th Century. USS Enterprise was pretty much shut down because of it, and Pike ordered it ripped out. Also note that the 23rd Century variant seemed to depict the individuals using it as ghostly, whereas the system used in DS9 didn't.
-Bridge Windows: Just because we didn't see any doesn't mean they never existed. While Kelvin Timeline based, Star Trek Beyond's USS Franklin shows that Starfleet had been playing around with that style as early as the 22nd Century, before the timeline split in 2233. We just never saw it on mainline ships of the franchise until Discovery. Both versions of the viewscreen have their advantages and disadvantages.
And just in case anyone wants to bring it up:
-Spore Drive's existence: No one ever said that Starfleet COULDN'T experiment with new technologies at any point. Clearly the Spore Drive was an attempt at making a new FTL Propulsion System, so... its no different than their later Transwarp experiments with USS Excelsior. As for never hearing about it "later" in the timeline... need I point out that we also never heard about Genesis after the movies? And technically like the Spore Drive, Genesis Tech worked. Yet we never hear about it in TNG, DS9, or Voyager.
-Spock/Burnham connection: People ranted about Burnham being Spock's adopted sister. Well... we never knew he had a half brother before ST5 with the reveal of Sybok. And it is established IN CANON that Spock is very private about his family. His best friend James Kirk never knew who Spock's father was until Ambassador Sarek was aboard the Enterprise. And Kirk even says "I know for a FACT you don't have a brother" in Star Trek 5. Spock's answer was "You're right. I don't have a brother. I have a HALF brother". So not only is he private about his family, he's precise. Even without Discovery being classified at the highest level, ask Spock if he has a sister, and he'd say no, because he doesn't have a sister, he as an ADOPTED or FOSTER Sister.
Could you please move this thread to Ten Foward? It's clearly about the show now, not the game.
I'm gonna address some of these concerns, at least from my point of view.
-Klingon Sarcophagus Ship: Was stated to be an OLD ship for one. For another... Klingon culture is just as diverse as our own. While true some groups believe the body is of no consequence, clearly some do care. And talk of The Black Fleet as part of the afterlife is canon. The Sarco seems to honor the idea of The Black Fleet. There's also the practice known as the Ak'voh, where warriors preside over the dead body of a fallen warrior for a time. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Fleet https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ak'voh
-Klingon Appearance: While radical in season one, they changed it in season two, which brought it more in line with TNG style Klingons. As for the Augment Virus... it was never revealed just HOW far it had spread through the Empire. So it is plausible to say that not ALL Klingons were affected. And honestly the appearance of the Klingons could be passed off as another ethnic group, or just handwaved because we also have three variations of Andorians.
-Klingons shaving heads: Eh... could be an ancient practice that was discontinued. After Discovery, the only bald Klingon we see after that is General Chang in Undiscovered Country. By choice, genetics, or ancient tradition... who knows.
-Klingons with Cloaks: They already explained it as having originated from the Sarco, which herself was an OLD design. While Starfleet has encountered cloaks in the past per Enterprise, citing only TOS is flawed because that is referencing the ROMULAN Cloak. Kor saying Klingon cloaks were new could be referring to their Romulan designed cloaks, which were much better than the older ones they had in the 2250s, which I might add, were rendered useless by data obtained by Discovery and given to Starfleet. Why keep using a flawed cloak your enemy can see through?
-Starfleet/Klingon Holographic communications: While an oddball choice... it doesn't mean it wasn't experimented with at any point before DS9. And it clearly had flaws in the 23rd Century, which led to it being mothballed until Holographic technology was perfected in the 24th Century. USS Enterprise was pretty much shut down because of it, and Pike ordered it ripped out. Also note that the 23rd Century variant seemed to depict the individuals using it as ghostly, whereas the system used in DS9 didn't.
-Bridge Windows: Just because we didn't see any doesn't mean they never existed. While Kelvin Timeline based, Star Trek Beyond's USS Franklin shows that Starfleet had been playing around with that style as early as the 22nd Century, before the timeline split in 2233. We just never saw it on mainline ships of the franchise until Discovery. Both versions of the viewscreen have their advantages and disadvantages.
And just in case anyone wants to bring it up:
-Spore Drive's existence: No one ever said that Starfleet COULDN'T experiment with new technologies at any point. Clearly the Spore Drive was an attempt at making a new FTL Propulsion System, so... its no different than their later Transwarp experiments with USS Excelsior. As for never hearing about it "later" in the timeline... need I point out that we also never heard about Genesis after the movies? And technically like the Spore Drive, Genesis Tech worked. Yet we never hear about it in TNG, DS9, or Voyager.
-Spock/Burnham connection: People ranted about Burnham being Spock's adopted sister. Well... we never knew he had a half brother before ST5 with the reveal of Sybok. And it is established IN CANON that Spock is very private about his family. His best friend James Kirk never knew who Spock's father was until Ambassador Sarek was aboard the Enterprise. And Kirk even says "I know for a FACT you don't have a brother" in Star Trek 5. Spock's answer was "You're right. I don't have a brother. I have a HALF brother". So not only is he private about his family, he's precise. Even without Discovery being classified at the highest level, ask Spock if he has a sister, and he'd say no, because he doesn't have a sister, he as an ADOPTED or FOSTER Sister.
When you have power over the franchise that created Warp and even Quantum Slipstream...why use a form of propulsion that gets on everyone's thrupnies? Have fun with Warp! Give up Warp 13 200-years before it should be possible, but not something that essentially makes it a new franchise. It should have belonged in the next Earth: Final Conflict, not Star Trek.
You've got Warp...but you don't use it. You actually grind it into the ground by creating "The Burn", almost as if it's affronting, because you want to do something wonky and unpleasant.
No, TAS is not canon, never was, only one episode was ever considered as such. Or are you telling me the Bonaventure was the first Warp capable ship canonically. If CBS canonsed it in recent years, then they've opened a huge can of worms with that...Interestingly, you cire Gene's novel (non-canon) as a source of information, while completely ignoring his attitude towards TAS which he never accepted as canon (Except for one episode).
Romulan involvement in TCW was never established, so you can't say they were or weren't a part of it. Also, the Suliban future guy was supposed to be a Romulan, but since it also wasn't established, it is not canon, I will grant you that. In any case, the Romulan cloak in ENT can be rectified more easily with other Trek than the Klingon one in DIS but at the end of the day BOTH are mistakes and one doesn't justify the other. In fact, the Romulan cloak in ENT is one of the show's biggest canon violations to this day.
And this whole discussion makes my point perfectly, you had to draw from multiple shows, multiple episodes across multiple seasons, just to argue for the mistakes Discovery made in it's first two episodes, first two. And they are just the tip of the iceberg
I believe it would be more prudent to continue this over PMs because it is getting off topic here.
When it comes to people dictating what is or is not canon...NO! There is no bias in locking a thread when it descends into a whinge-fest, which it nearly always does. If folk can't accept DSC is canon, they can express their opinion, but they cannot go around saying something isn't canon. CBS is GOD when it comes to all things Star Trek, not the public. That's not to say CBS doesn't listen, because they did. There's also nothing in DSC that broke canon either, and that's simply because there's literally NOTHING to go off between ENT and TOS.
The ONLY thing that wound me up about DSC was the minority refusing to accept the 'updated visuals' in DSC. If TOS was made now, it would indeed have touchscreens!
The ONLY thing I didn't like about DSC was the Spore Drive, but everything else has been fantastic.
To be fair, the visuals were even more future tech that TNG, which irks me a bit. I for one would love to see the original shows get a complete remake. Same script, new actors with today's upgraded tech/visuals. I would absolutely watch those if they did. Also, anything that was awkward (like getting rid of that awkward unnatural tilt of the ship as it zips through space, or saying, "warp factor 9" instead of saying warp 9. And if there is anything that breaks canon, fix that as well.
I think it would be a hit...at least it would be a hit for me.
No, it has not been supported by past canon, as your responses continued, you responded to less and less points. Defending mistakes with mistakes is not supporting something. Only TOS happened? Yeah, I never mentioned any other show...
You never responded to the window, just stating something about holo-effect viewscreens, that's not a window. The ones used in discovery are clearly windows...why? Why? Well cool visuals are more important than common logic...a problem with the entire entertainment industry.
Holo-comms? Put aside that it is something new in DS9. Not to mention that you would have to have a ship filled with emitters (Prometheus was revolutionary for having holo emitters outside the holodeck and sickbay allowing the EMH to operate more freely) The stupid scene where the Admiral from the Europa is looking around the Shenzhou bridge, ordering around the crew. So what, he has the entire bridge from another ship projected around him?
The cloak is a mistake, both in discovery and enterprise. Just because enterprise made it, it doesn't mean the dicovery had to also. There were other ways, more creative ways to accomplish a similar narrative...but then again, it would take talent to do it, find a smart workaround.
Two Federation ships having 10000 drones, shuttles and smallcraft that all go pew-pew-pew at the bad ships! That's Trek! Why? Why not just have a few more ships that warp in and help. Why do the small dot pew-pew swarm? Why end on some over the top space battle when two ships vs 3-4 smaller ships would have done the trick. But no, it has to be a giant pew-pew
Starfleet scientist genetically creating the rapidly procreating Tribbles? No...Phlox didn't have one at all, explicitly referencing their rapid procreation a 100 years before that.
Starfleet scientist having time travelling space suits decades before TOS. Yeah, that's respecting established levels of tech and research of that era.
As I can see from the quote, the Future guy being Archer was ONE of the possible ideas, not the only nor the final one. Just the most interesting one according to Braga.
Discovery simply tries (and too often fails) to shove far too much into canon in too shot a time. You name various shows doing various things in many different points of their run. Discovery does just as much in a few episodes or one season. Might as have call it Star Trek Forced Shoehorn. The writers either have a superficial knowledge of canon or they just don't care. I would be willing to bet that most references came from like...one of them or they did some research like a day earlier, clearly not knowing enough.
Visually it's out of place completely (and don't give me that bullcr*p you can't show 60ties aesthetic, if you are not prepared to, don't place your show in that era. TNG respected it (Relics), DS9 respected it (Trials and Tribbleations), ENT respected it (In a Mirror Darkly)) Why go the the pre-TOS era when you have no intention of working within it's limitations and completely removing any suspension of disbelief? Go 26th century, have all the holograms and jump drives you want. But hey, you couldn't cash in on the good old memberberries then. Well you could, but it would take talent and creativity. I'm not saying I want a new show that looks like the 60ties, I don't but if you are not planning to respect it then don't do shows in that time period, simple!
Narrative wise it's also out of place. Trek lives in a different format and while it can have a larger multi season back story (DS9 ENT and VOY), it needs to be built on self contained stories. If you can't do that, do something original and don't try to leech of the Trek name. It can have total TRIBBLE of a story, but it's for one week, next week can be brilliant. This show always ends up a season long, not too interesting story that seems like it's being made up as they shoot it, filled with mystery boxes, half of them leading nowhere...other half filled with plot holes.
You want a reboot? Fine, do what JJ did, alternate reality, do what you want. But then again, you would have less hype...
Where to start science-wise? Yeah, Voyager did far too many scientific stretches, misunderstanding terms like quantum singularities etc...but at least we didn't have the brilliant "Time crystals" God...what were they? 5? At least call them Temporal Crystals or I don't know, Chrono-Lattice Crystals...something. Time crystals...c'mon. Or what, s simple light beacon instantly alerting various ships in various places light years away which all then warp in at the same time, sure...speed of light anyone? Sonar in space? Shooting stars in space?That's JJ level of scientific knowledge. But hey, the power of math, right? All of this is just a tiny scratch on the surface of it.
This show compiled all the worst aspects of mostly VOY and ENT, and some other shows displaying almost non of their strengths.
If you enjoy the show, good for you, I hope you get many many good moments. If you can seamlessly blend this with the rest of the trek and you see no contradictions, no narrative problems, no scientific problems with all your disbelief suspended. If you see just as many problems within classic Trek and this, also, good for you, have fun, enjoy.
I am personally tired of these discussions. The third season of this show was the last one I will ever watch because I just lost any emotion towards it. I really don't know why I got into this.
Do not expect any further response from me, it just won't lead anywhere.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,434Community Moderator
Moved the whole thread to Ten Forward. Don't wanna try to split the thread honestly.
The official published stance on TAS as far back as the mid 1980s was that it IS canon, with the caveat that anything done live action automatically prevails when there is a conflict (Paramount did not want to be held to anything it would be too expensive or impossible to do in live action that was featured in the animated show).
The myth about it being non-canon was because of one of Roddenberry's infamous rants during the time he was essentially shut out of the movie production after TMP, where he said that he did not consider anything he was not directly involved in canon. That included parts of the third season of TOS, all of TAS, and every movie after TMP (TNG was not yet on the horizon btw and he was really irked at Paramount movie division). However he cooled off and recanted the statement about a week or two later, but like the Internet, anything once put out in the fan community tends to stay no matter how one tries to get rid of it.
The problems with DSC are very numerous, but if Kurtzman's team was not boxed in by contempt for TOS (and not at all clever or subtle on top of it), they could have arranged that multitude so that they solve each other.
Two prime candidates for that are the JJwindows and the Sarc cloak. A few words of dialog could establish Shenzhou as a planetary survey ship capable of landing on the surface, the windows and the placement of the bridge make perfect sense for that role.
Then they run into the cloak and the Klingon ships keep dropping off the sensors (even the passive ones) but someone could notice that they are still visible visually to some extent (it could be a "living mind" thing like FTL navigation in Andromeda), but they have to get very close and fire weapons by eye without a lock (which also takes care of their truly execrable gunnery at laughably short range by TOS (and ENT) standards problem). All the screen-based ships in the battle get destroyed because they cannot get a lock on anything and they don't have direct vision windows that can be used to aim with.
The logical response would be to dredge up all of the ships that are designed to spend most of their time in a star system studying things with a conveniently close by sun where a window makes at least a little sense on it (and of course that can defend themselves) and send them into the war (which brings in why they would send a pure science ship like Discovery with its little pew-pew pulse phasers and keep a heavily armed tank of a battlecruiser like Enterprise out of the war zones because it would be effectively blind to the enemy until Discovery figured out working countermeasures with their jumping around stunt keeping them alive long enough to pull it off. And since the Romulan cloak is completely different that could lead to the situation in Balance of Terror without stretching believability too far.
Instead they let their contempt for TOS get in the way and seemed to do as much to contradict TOS as possible, even putting a line in the pilot that would rule out the 2240s war the Constitution class was designed for as being against the Klingons.
And TOS contempt is a real thing btw, cultural studies scholars were writing as far back as the 1980s about how Star Trek was almost unique in the weird phenomenon of fans of a spinoff series (and movies) having nothing but contempt for the original they were spun off from, where usually it is the spinoff that is the target of distain.
The problem with holographic communication was not a matter of not having the projectors to show them (in fact they refer to holograms several times in TOS in ways that imply that they look very real. In Catspaw Kirk and the landing party thinks someone is pranking them with a holoprojection of the Macbeth witches, and when they find that the photonic Losira is a hologram they seem to be more troubled by the fact that she can touch things than that she looks so real.
Also Mcoy's daughter was to be joining the crew in the fourth season and a humorous subthread was supposed to be the annoying (to Bones) holographic letters his ex-wife would keep sending him fishing for information about their daughter and trying to convince him to get her to go back to Earth. They planned to film the "holographic letters" on this little out of the way patio that didn't get much use since way back when it was RKO pictures.
Anyway, the problem with holocommunication in TOS was that an important part of the concept was that the ship was too far out for any kind of realtime two-way communication most of the time (so the weight of decisions would fall on the captain's shoulders, not just get kicked upstairs to HQ all the time), though they were able to sometimes. Technically they were using holographics then because the screens were holographic and showed depth behind the plane of the screen.
If they really wanted to do an updated TOS era show they could have if they actually started with TOS instead of The Undiscovered Country and the Kelvin movies. Overall, Kurtzman's team reminds me of a saying by G.K. Chesterton: “It isn’t that they cannot find the solution. It is that they cannot see the problem.”
Comments
West's Batman and those early Superman movies were certainly campy, though to be fair it was not too much of an exaggeration of the comics themselves, back then in the silver and early bronze age of comics DC tended to be a bit campy compared to the deadpan seriousness that Marvel liked to do back then. The villain version of Dr. Light was a great example of that when he tended to forget what he was talking about during soliloquies and whatnot.
I am not sure what you are referring to as campy in regard to TOS though. A lot of people seem to think that production values like outdated special effects make something campy but that is not what camp is unless the production is deliberately done to look like it uses older effects technology as a way of lampooning something from an earlier time. It wasn't a lampoon in TOS, the SFX were movie-grade for the time, which is the main reason the show was always strapped for cash as so much of their budget was eaten by SFX costs.
To be fair, campiness is mostly based in humor, irony, and lightheartedness which TOS does as well to a large degree, but the nuances are totally different between the two (usually anyway, a few episodes did verge on camp).
A lot of the humorous irony in TOS was Kirk's viewpoint coming across, he had little patience for pompousness, political maneuvering, and even regulations beyond a certain point and would go through the motions when required with a rather ironic air, and was amused when the officious numbskulls he had to deal with (like Councilor Yuri) did not pick up on what he was doing.
The difference is that instead of the actors poking fun at the source material and general setting from a viewer perspective (like the way those Batman and Superman shows did), Kirk was directing it at a particular character or characters in the story from a perspective fully contained in the character's viewpoint. The same is true of the other regulars though to a lesser extent, and Bones did lampshade the conventions a bit from time to time, though not enough to call it campy.
On the whole it tended to be more avant garde for its time than anything else, pushing boundaries that many of which have drifted back into place in the post-modern, uptight, self-consciousness that characterizes the stereotype of generation-x (and through that the more conventional and "grounded" aspects of Hollywood culture), which I suppose could be mistaken for campiness.
Hahaha
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becomes "tribble". Man, this forum...
@rattler2 already pointed out that under the FCT thread, the use of that acronym to get around the forum censor is a form of gatekeeping. You probably haven't even looked through this entire thread.
It seems like a 50/50 (maybe more like 60/40) that people in this thread get that there are those that dislike Discovery & Cryptic for spending almost 3 years of the game's development on a story arc based off of it when other series haven't even gotten near as long of a focus. People are being mostly civil about the discussion.
If he could have he would have simply made Kelvin Trek (and as movies instead of a series) but he could not do that because of legal issues, so they danced around those IP issues as close as they could get without the risk rising too high and swapped in elements of The Undiscovered Country (the movie that Roddenberry had the most objections to) to lower the points of similarity a bit. Unfortunately, even though he left CBS, DSC was already locked into those early choices and the damage control since has been, well..., shall we say less than elegant at best.
What Moonves would never have done would be to deliberately make a bad show with the express purpose of killing one of the companies potentially biggest assets no matter how much he hated it, that would have been career suicide. Unfortunately his ego-fueled games and distaste for science-fiction did damage it and split the fanbase, but he probably thought that bringing in the action movie fans who made the Kelvin movies briefly popular would balance out the loss of a lot of the old fans.
As for PIC, it is in a very awkward position of not being nonstop action enough for a lot of the Kelvin fans but neither is it close enough to TNG (both in the style/feel/depth sense and the compatibility one) to pull in a lot of the Berman era fans for the long haul either. The Numeris rating in Canada (where the show is on the Space channel and so the viewership numbers are more available for analysis) reflect that, with a high initial interest followed by a sharper, larger decline than average.
I think it was more that Roddenberry was a pain in their backsides. Trek would never have seen the light of day without Lucy
This was a sarcastic remark... just FYI.
Most suits are BEAN COUNTERS who THINK they have talent, and intelligence....but they don't.
Honestly, I wouldn't hold it against him.
Congrats; you just helped CBS keep Disco fresh and also bring in more espionage drama for their S31 series.
S31 is involved via the Guardian of Forever dragging Georgiou back to save the Discovery and her friend Burnham, and S31 going full on espionage across time to stop the erasure of the Discovery with the Guardian's reluctant assistance (because the alternative would be worse, whatever it is). Which then conveniently leads to renewed Temporal Accords preventing more time travel trouble signed in 32c, with Discovery present and all files pertaining to enabling time travel completely erased, including the knowledge of the Red Angel suit and its systems.
My understanding is that they will make content along side current TV show/Movies. so Disco is getting heavy content when compaired to all other content. you'll also find Picard Show content increes other the next year or two.
I dont consider Disco Cannon. as they have stated that the reasion the show is so different is that it has to be 25% plus different form trek cannon. No, they didn't. That was John Eaves talking about his personal design goals for the look of the Ent-Nil specifically in DSC. -- WingedHussar its to far from cannon and breaks it. but i just go with the flow. Dont watch the show but will play STO as its all I have.
Sorry to disappoint, but that 25% myth was a misunderstanding from John Eaves. Well that's the awesomeness of Head Canon, you can pick and choose what you feel is Star Trek. The Official Canon is that Discovery, Picard, Lower Decks, Prodigy, Strange New Worlds, and The Animated Series are all canon. Granted they may retcon or play loose with the Canon (Not a new thing in Trek).
I think you are confused. They did ask John Eaves to changed the design of the Enterprise itself (no idea why) but that was only about the ship itself, not the show.
https://comicbook.com/startrek/news/star-trek-discovery-enterprise-design-legal/
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Even Enterprise , the "worst offender" before Kurzman's "Trek" doesn't come close. FYI, I enjoyed and supported Enterprise back in the day. I do not support the current "Trek". Well, Lower Decks at least tries HARD, everything else...you can feel it's made by people that neither care nor know the canon.
Apart from Seven and her pistols, have we really had that much Picard in STO? Well, the La Sirena, but it's the worst of the raiders.
Can please site examples of Discovery's disregard for canon or canon destruction. If you don't think Classic Trek is pretty bad, then you haven't been looking.
Klingon Sarcophagus ship (they do not care for the bodies of the dead)
Klingon appearance even though they should be mostly affected by the augment virus and be smootheads (not the mention the awful redesign)
Klingons shaving their heads in war time
Klingons with cloaks before Balance of Terror (Kor said it was brand spanking new much later in the timeline, Spock confused by it having it be only be a theoretical prior to the Balance of Terror encounter)
Starfleet holographic communication (it's supposed to be brand new, cutting edge in DS9, episode "For the Uniform" if I'm not mistaken)
Bridge windows (they were never ever windows in prime timeline, only in the JJ-mystery box timeline)
This are just some of the stuff from the pilot episodes. Please find me any other Trek pilot with more continuity problems.
1. Klingon Sarcophagus Ship- That is your opinion
2. Klingon appearance issues - That is a recurring theme is Trek, Klingons have been re-designed several times and I imagine there will be more redesigns in future series
3. Cultural and societal differences occur all the time, especially separated by generations. 1900s fashion vs 2020s fashion are very different. Back in the 70s and 80s, clean shaven was the norm and now beards are everywhere.
4. It is a form of stealth technology, this is speculation on whether all of the Klingon empire employed it
5. In the intervening hundred years, we have seen Starfleet ships do spectacular things and holographic communication crosses that line?
6. We've never seen a head on Star Trek, I gather they use the three seashells. Besides, in First Contact they used a holographic wall to hide the viewscreen, why can't they have window shutters for the bridge?
-Klingon Sarcophagus Ship: Was stated to be an OLD ship for one. For another... Klingon culture is just as diverse as our own. While true some groups believe the body is of no consequence, clearly some do care. And talk of The Black Fleet as part of the afterlife is canon. The Sarco seems to honor the idea of The Black Fleet. There's also the practice known as the Ak'voh, where warriors preside over the dead body of a fallen warrior for a time.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Fleet
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ak'voh
-Klingon Appearance: While radical in season one, they changed it in season two, which brought it more in line with TNG style Klingons. As for the Augment Virus... it was never revealed just HOW far it had spread through the Empire. So it is plausible to say that not ALL Klingons were affected. And honestly the appearance of the Klingons could be passed off as another ethnic group, or just handwaved because we also have three variations of Andorians.
-Klingons shaving heads: Eh... could be an ancient practice that was discontinued. After Discovery, the only bald Klingon we see after that is General Chang in Undiscovered Country. By choice, genetics, or ancient tradition... who knows.
-Klingons with Cloaks: They already explained it as having originated from the Sarco, which herself was an OLD design. While Starfleet has encountered cloaks in the past per Enterprise, citing only TOS is flawed because that is referencing the ROMULAN Cloak. Kor saying Klingon cloaks were new could be referring to their Romulan designed cloaks, which were much better than the older ones they had in the 2250s, which I might add, were rendered useless by data obtained by Discovery and given to Starfleet. Why keep using a flawed cloak your enemy can see through?
-Starfleet/Klingon Holographic communications: While an oddball choice... it doesn't mean it wasn't experimented with at any point before DS9. And it clearly had flaws in the 23rd Century, which led to it being mothballed until Holographic technology was perfected in the 24th Century. USS Enterprise was pretty much shut down because of it, and Pike ordered it ripped out. Also note that the 23rd Century variant seemed to depict the individuals using it as ghostly, whereas the system used in DS9 didn't.
-Bridge Windows: Just because we didn't see any doesn't mean they never existed. While Kelvin Timeline based, Star Trek Beyond's USS Franklin shows that Starfleet had been playing around with that style as early as the 22nd Century, before the timeline split in 2233. We just never saw it on mainline ships of the franchise until Discovery. Both versions of the viewscreen have their advantages and disadvantages.
And just in case anyone wants to bring it up:
-Spore Drive's existence: No one ever said that Starfleet COULDN'T experiment with new technologies at any point. Clearly the Spore Drive was an attempt at making a new FTL Propulsion System, so... its no different than their later Transwarp experiments with USS Excelsior. As for never hearing about it "later" in the timeline... need I point out that we also never heard about Genesis after the movies? And technically like the Spore Drive, Genesis Tech worked. Yet we never hear about it in TNG, DS9, or Voyager.
-Spock/Burnham connection: People ranted about Burnham being Spock's adopted sister. Well... we never knew he had a half brother before ST5 with the reveal of Sybok. And it is established IN CANON that Spock is very private about his family. His best friend James Kirk never knew who Spock's father was until Ambassador Sarek was aboard the Enterprise. And Kirk even says "I know for a FACT you don't have a brother" in Star Trek 5. Spock's answer was "You're right. I don't have a brother. I have a HALF brother". So not only is he private about his family, he's precise. Even without Discovery being classified at the highest level, ask Spock if he has a sister, and he'd say no, because he doesn't have a sister, he as an ADOPTED or FOSTER Sister.
TMP also shows that the Enterprise viewscreen is holographic, but what's your point. In Discovery, the ships have literal see-trough windows, not holo-effect viewscreen.
Cloaks in ENT are the result of temporal tampering, but even if not, Spock not being aware of something from a century ago could be feasible, on the other hand, him not being aware of something less than a decade ago isn't. Specially if it was used during a wide-scale war against Starfleet. Only one United Earth ship ever encoutered them and they were used by the Suliban and the Romulans. As I said, Kor mentioned them as being a new tech to the Klingons, later in the timeline, so this is not just about Spock's lack of knowledge.
It was a thing, but far from being of such cultural importance that a giant ship would have been built and utilized in such a manner. That being said, I will concede this point to you. This can be considered a light recon, it even that and not a mistake.
Qu'vat colony might have been just one colony, but it was implied that the genetic effects from that event will spread and deeply influence much of the Klingon population (aggressive genes that are probably always dominant during reproduction) From visual evidence from TOS, we can easily say that a large enough segment of the population was affected that there were entire ships with the majority if not entire crews of smooth heads. If Discovery showed even a few, just a few here and there, I could have kinda conceded, but having two shows set only a decade from one another, one showing smooth heads exclusively, other some over the top mutated anti-smoothheads...yeah, no
Could you please move this thread to Ten Foward? It's clearly about the show now, not the game.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
When you have power over the franchise that created Warp and even Quantum Slipstream...why use a form of propulsion that gets on everyone's thrupnies? Have fun with Warp! Give up Warp 13 200-years before it should be possible, but not something that essentially makes it a new franchise. It should have belonged in the next Earth: Final Conflict, not Star Trek.
You've got Warp...but you don't use it. You actually grind it into the ground by creating "The Burn", almost as if it's affronting, because you want to do something wonky and unpleasant.
No, TAS is not canon, never was, only one episode was ever considered as such. Or are you telling me the Bonaventure was the first Warp capable ship canonically. If CBS canonsed it in recent years, then they've opened a huge can of worms with that...Interestingly, you cire Gene's novel (non-canon) as a source of information, while completely ignoring his attitude towards TAS which he never accepted as canon (Except for one episode).
Romulan involvement in TCW was never established, so you can't say they were or weren't a part of it. Also, the Suliban future guy was supposed to be a Romulan, but since it also wasn't established, it is not canon, I will grant you that. In any case, the Romulan cloak in ENT can be rectified more easily with other Trek than the Klingon one in DIS but at the end of the day BOTH are mistakes and one doesn't justify the other. In fact, the Romulan cloak in ENT is one of the show's biggest canon violations to this day.
And this whole discussion makes my point perfectly, you had to draw from multiple shows, multiple episodes across multiple seasons, just to argue for the mistakes Discovery made in it's first two episodes, first two. And they are just the tip of the iceberg
I believe it would be more prudent to continue this over PMs because it is getting off topic here.
To be fair, the visuals were even more future tech that TNG, which irks me a bit. I for one would love to see the original shows get a complete remake. Same script, new actors with today's upgraded tech/visuals. I would absolutely watch those if they did. Also, anything that was awkward (like getting rid of that awkward unnatural tilt of the ship as it zips through space, or saying, "warp factor 9" instead of saying warp 9. And if there is anything that breaks canon, fix that as well.
I think it would be a hit...at least it would be a hit for me.
You never responded to the window, just stating something about holo-effect viewscreens, that's not a window. The ones used in discovery are clearly windows...why? Why? Well cool visuals are more important than common logic...a problem with the entire entertainment industry.
Holo-comms? Put aside that it is something new in DS9. Not to mention that you would have to have a ship filled with emitters (Prometheus was revolutionary for having holo emitters outside the holodeck and sickbay allowing the EMH to operate more freely) The stupid scene where the Admiral from the Europa is looking around the Shenzhou bridge, ordering around the crew. So what, he has the entire bridge from another ship projected around him?
The cloak is a mistake, both in discovery and enterprise. Just because enterprise made it, it doesn't mean the dicovery had to also. There were other ways, more creative ways to accomplish a similar narrative...but then again, it would take talent to do it, find a smart workaround.
Two Federation ships having 10000 drones, shuttles and smallcraft that all go pew-pew-pew at the bad ships! That's Trek! Why? Why not just have a few more ships that warp in and help. Why do the small dot pew-pew swarm? Why end on some over the top space battle when two ships vs 3-4 smaller ships would have done the trick. But no, it has to be a giant pew-pew
Starfleet scientist genetically creating the rapidly procreating Tribbles? No...Phlox didn't have one at all, explicitly referencing their rapid procreation a 100 years before that.
Starfleet scientist having time travelling space suits decades before TOS. Yeah, that's respecting established levels of tech and research of that era.
As I can see from the quote, the Future guy being Archer was ONE of the possible ideas, not the only nor the final one. Just the most interesting one according to Braga.
Discovery simply tries (and too often fails) to shove far too much into canon in too shot a time. You name various shows doing various things in many different points of their run. Discovery does just as much in a few episodes or one season. Might as have call it Star Trek Forced Shoehorn. The writers either have a superficial knowledge of canon or they just don't care. I would be willing to bet that most references came from like...one of them or they did some research like a day earlier, clearly not knowing enough.
Visually it's out of place completely (and don't give me that bullcr*p you can't show 60ties aesthetic, if you are not prepared to, don't place your show in that era. TNG respected it (Relics), DS9 respected it (Trials and Tribbleations), ENT respected it (In a Mirror Darkly)) Why go the the pre-TOS era when you have no intention of working within it's limitations and completely removing any suspension of disbelief? Go 26th century, have all the holograms and jump drives you want. But hey, you couldn't cash in on the good old memberberries then. Well you could, but it would take talent and creativity. I'm not saying I want a new show that looks like the 60ties, I don't but if you are not planning to respect it then don't do shows in that time period, simple!
Narrative wise it's also out of place. Trek lives in a different format and while it can have a larger multi season back story (DS9 ENT and VOY), it needs to be built on self contained stories. If you can't do that, do something original and don't try to leech of the Trek name. It can have total TRIBBLE of a story, but it's for one week, next week can be brilliant. This show always ends up a season long, not too interesting story that seems like it's being made up as they shoot it, filled with mystery boxes, half of them leading nowhere...other half filled with plot holes.
You want a reboot? Fine, do what JJ did, alternate reality, do what you want. But then again, you would have less hype...
Where to start science-wise? Yeah, Voyager did far too many scientific stretches, misunderstanding terms like quantum singularities etc...but at least we didn't have the brilliant "Time crystals" God...what were they? 5? At least call them Temporal Crystals or I don't know, Chrono-Lattice Crystals...something. Time crystals...c'mon. Or what, s simple light beacon instantly alerting various ships in various places light years away which all then warp in at the same time, sure...speed of light anyone? Sonar in space? Shooting stars in space?That's JJ level of scientific knowledge. But hey, the power of math, right? All of this is just a tiny scratch on the surface of it.
This show compiled all the worst aspects of mostly VOY and ENT, and some other shows displaying almost non of their strengths.
If you enjoy the show, good for you, I hope you get many many good moments. If you can seamlessly blend this with the rest of the trek and you see no contradictions, no narrative problems, no scientific problems with all your disbelief suspended. If you see just as many problems within classic Trek and this, also, good for you, have fun, enjoy.
I am personally tired of these discussions. The third season of this show was the last one I will ever watch because I just lost any emotion towards it. I really don't know why I got into this.
Do not expect any further response from me, it just won't lead anywhere.
The myth about it being non-canon was because of one of Roddenberry's infamous rants during the time he was essentially shut out of the movie production after TMP, where he said that he did not consider anything he was not directly involved in canon. That included parts of the third season of TOS, all of TAS, and every movie after TMP (TNG was not yet on the horizon btw and he was really irked at Paramount movie division). However he cooled off and recanted the statement about a week or two later, but like the Internet, anything once put out in the fan community tends to stay no matter how one tries to get rid of it.
The problems with DSC are very numerous, but if Kurtzman's team was not boxed in by contempt for TOS (and not at all clever or subtle on top of it), they could have arranged that multitude so that they solve each other.
Two prime candidates for that are the JJwindows and the Sarc cloak. A few words of dialog could establish Shenzhou as a planetary survey ship capable of landing on the surface, the windows and the placement of the bridge make perfect sense for that role.
Then they run into the cloak and the Klingon ships keep dropping off the sensors (even the passive ones) but someone could notice that they are still visible visually to some extent (it could be a "living mind" thing like FTL navigation in Andromeda), but they have to get very close and fire weapons by eye without a lock (which also takes care of their truly execrable gunnery at laughably short range by TOS (and ENT) standards problem). All the screen-based ships in the battle get destroyed because they cannot get a lock on anything and they don't have direct vision windows that can be used to aim with.
The logical response would be to dredge up all of the ships that are designed to spend most of their time in a star system studying things with a conveniently close by sun where a window makes at least a little sense on it (and of course that can defend themselves) and send them into the war (which brings in why they would send a pure science ship like Discovery with its little pew-pew pulse phasers and keep a heavily armed tank of a battlecruiser like Enterprise out of the war zones because it would be effectively blind to the enemy until Discovery figured out working countermeasures with their jumping around stunt keeping them alive long enough to pull it off. And since the Romulan cloak is completely different that could lead to the situation in Balance of Terror without stretching believability too far.
Instead they let their contempt for TOS get in the way and seemed to do as much to contradict TOS as possible, even putting a line in the pilot that would rule out the 2240s war the Constitution class was designed for as being against the Klingons.
And TOS contempt is a real thing btw, cultural studies scholars were writing as far back as the 1980s about how Star Trek was almost unique in the weird phenomenon of fans of a spinoff series (and movies) having nothing but contempt for the original they were spun off from, where usually it is the spinoff that is the target of distain.
The problem with holographic communication was not a matter of not having the projectors to show them (in fact they refer to holograms several times in TOS in ways that imply that they look very real. In Catspaw Kirk and the landing party thinks someone is pranking them with a holoprojection of the Macbeth witches, and when they find that the photonic Losira is a hologram they seem to be more troubled by the fact that she can touch things than that she looks so real.
Also Mcoy's daughter was to be joining the crew in the fourth season and a humorous subthread was supposed to be the annoying (to Bones) holographic letters his ex-wife would keep sending him fishing for information about their daughter and trying to convince him to get her to go back to Earth. They planned to film the "holographic letters" on this little out of the way patio that didn't get much use since way back when it was RKO pictures.
Anyway, the problem with holocommunication in TOS was that an important part of the concept was that the ship was too far out for any kind of realtime two-way communication most of the time (so the weight of decisions would fall on the captain's shoulders, not just get kicked upstairs to HQ all the time), though they were able to sometimes. Technically they were using holographics then because the screens were holographic and showed depth behind the plane of the screen.
If they really wanted to do an updated TOS era show they could have if they actually started with TOS instead of The Undiscovered Country and the Kelvin movies. Overall, Kurtzman's team reminds me of a saying by G.K. Chesterton: “It isn’t that they cannot find the solution. It is that they cannot see the problem.”