Having finally watched the episode, I have to wonder - would these hypothetical ships have a built-in function, similar to the cloaking ability of some Intel ships, which causes them to just randomly explode for no adequately explained reason?
You mean like how the Excelsior originally would randomly fail to transwarp when it was put in game?
After watching the episode I would really not hold my breath on seeing any of those ships in-game.
They only appear for a few seconds in a flashback-shot. That's literally nothing to work with as of now. Of course it's possible that a few of these ships are somehow still out there (like being in drydock during the burn, similar to how Pegasus survived the EW-attack of the Cylons) and may cross paths with the DIS-crew lateron.
Book's Millenium-Falcon-knock-off seems much more likely.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,585Community Moderator
To be fair... all we had to work off of, at least from on screen, of the Ent-J was a wall display.
The difference being that Enterprise-J was afterwards featured in the SotL-calendars, and was a popular mod-plugin for multiple other Star Trek-games. It's an Enterprise so it's a different situation from the get-go.
Some of the ships also remind me of the Phamysht-ships in Star Control: Origins.
I wonder what is gonna be the excuse to their presence in the game this time, considering they show up after time travel tech is banned and destroyed (which is technically impossible and downright ridiculous, but then, that'd ruin one of the main points of the season), so unlike the rest where you had the "exceptional assets for Temporal Agents", "we keep a close eye on the Kelvin timeline considering the mess started with a Prime!ship", "declassified S31 files", or "stolen by the Tholians", here, it's gonna be harder to justify it.
I wonder what is gonna be the excuse to their presence in the game this time
A wizard did it.
Frankly this doesn't even matter so much IMO. There are so many things throughout all of Trek that are handwaved away with technobabble or by other means.
I personally think the Starfleet design looks less advanced than the supposedly much older Enterprise-J. Since the J had advanced to the point that tiny pylons were all that was needed to connect the nacelles to the ship, imo ships this far further into the future should have nacelles that are completely separated from the rest of the ship, tethered to it with invisible tractor beams, and receiving power wirelessly rather than with a physical connection to the warp core.
not only that, but the J was meant to be a galactic explorer...so where the hell is the federation presence in other galaxies and why aren't they shipping dilithium from any of those? everything said about the burn so far seems to indicate it was confined to the milky way
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
not only that, but the J was meant to be a galactic explorer...
This was never canon. In fact, we know from canon, specifically the episode "Living Witness" that the Federation never even managed to explore all of the Milky way. Much less reach other galaxies.
How so? The episode was focused on a specific museum on a specific planet in the Delta Quadrant. I don't remember it even mentioning anything about the Federation's reach in the galaxy at either of the two displayed time periods, just that the Doctor's backup eventually left to go back to the Alpha Quadrant some time after the 31st century.
not only that, but the J was meant to be a galactic explorer...
This was never canon. In fact, we know from canon, specifically the episode "Living Witness" that the Federation never even managed to explore all of the Milky way. Much less reach other galaxies.
How so? The episode was focused on a specific museum on a specific planet in the Delta Quadrant. I don't remember it even mentioning anything about the Federation's reach in the galaxy at either of the two displayed time periods, just that the Doctor's backup eventually left to go back to the Alpha Quadrant some time after the 31st century.
I forgot about that episode. For it to work means that either the burn did not get to delta or everyone fairly quickly went to something else that worked despite the burn since the hideously expensive travel in DSC S3 would have trapped him there otherwise.
The funny thing is, the point of the sharkjump was supposedly to free the writers from the constraints of being directly in the immediate past of the TOS era, but the burn idea actually hobbles the kind of stories they can tell.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The episode makes it clear that neither species involved has had any contact with the Federation,
What was the affiliation of Voyager, again?
Technicalities apart, my question wasn't about whether the Federation explored the entire galaxy (it's in fact pretty much unlikely if we go with a more realistic path and the whole "20% of the galaxy explored" is ludicrous in the first place with how vast space and the galaxy itself are), but how the episode makes it canon. For all we know, the Federation could be around in the last time period, but the Doctor's backup wants to go back to the Alpha Quadrant specifically.
Also,
That's also not what a shark jump means, but I'll just add that to the list of words along with canon, fanon, headcanon, and retcon, that you have shown to not really understand the meaning of.
Dear God, can you stop being condescending and questioning people's intelligence (as opposed to people just missing/forgetting some details) for 5 freaking minutes?
Just to be awkward Living Witness could take place before the burn. Quarran did say give or take a decade. Trek characters always round up their centuries so exact years are just not known.
Likewise the ENT box set says Daniel's is from the year 3000 and not the 3050s as dialogue could suggest.
And let us not forget the 29th century being 400 years after the 2370s in many lines.
The Doctor went back specifically to learn if his friends made it home. If they Federation was even remotely around that area of space he wouldn't need to do so to learn such information, he could just ask the nearest Federation ship to check the historical database.
They said he had "a longing for home", hence why he simply doesn't just settle to go ask to an hypothetical Federation station and be done with it.
Also, the fact they mentioned he chose a small vessel to accomplish that gives more credibility to the Federation actually having a foothold in the Delta Quadrant. Considering all the disasters that happened to Voyager, even if the Doctor's backup had improved tech from several centuries in the future, going there using a small vessel would still be unwise. It's more likely he grabbed a small craft to head to the nearest Federation spaceport so he could take a bigger transport ship to the Alpha Quadrant.
He also would need to take a small ship to make the journey himself, he could just ask to be dropped off at the nearest Federation ship and have them take him back when they get a chance.
Just to be awkward Living Witness could take place before the burn. Quarran did say give or take a decade. Trek characters always round up their centuries so exact years are just not known.
Likewise the ENT box set says Daniel's is from the year 3000 and not the 3050s as dialogue could suggest.
And let us not forget the 29th century being 400 years after the 2370s in many lines.
And sometimes they don't even get that close. We all know that TOS is set in the mid-23rd Century, right? Except in the episode "Tomorrow Is Yesterday", an Air Force colonel in 1968 threatens to "lock [Kirk] up for two hundred years!", to which Kirk replies, "That ought to be just about right."
Just to be awkward Living Witness could take place before the burn. Quarran did say give or take a decade. Trek characters always round up their centuries so exact years are just not known.
Likewise the ENT box set says Daniel's is from the year 3000 and not the 3050s as dialogue could suggest.
And let us not forget the 29th century being 400 years after the 2370s in many lines.
And sometimes they don't even get that close. We all know that TOS is set in the mid-23rd Century, right? Except in the episode "Tomorrow Is Yesterday", an Air Force colonel in 1968 threatens to "lock [Kirk] up for two hundred years!", to which Kirk replies, "That ought to be just about right."
Oh yes that just reminded of the admiral on DS9 that said the eugenics war of the 90s was 200 years before the 2379
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
How so? The episode was focused on a specific museum on a specific planet in the Delta Quadrant. I don't remember it even mentioning anything about the Federation's reach in the galaxy at either of the two displayed time periods, just that the Doctor's backup eventually left to go back to the Alpha Quadrant some time after the 31st century.
The episode makes it clear that neither species involved has had any contact with the Federation, even into the year 3074(when the episode begins) This despite the fact that Living Witness is a late S4 episode, and by that time Voyager was over 10,600LY from the edge of the Delta Quadrant where they started(mostly due to Kes's 9,500LY gift, on top of normal annual travel). Not only do we have to count the distance from the galactic edge to the planet, but some distant past that to account for their "local space" area. This means that the Federation never made it into a rather expansive section of the Delta Quadrant.
This would be consistent with the "fundamental limit of warp travel" problem in Star Trek. Back in TOS space exploration was treated as the wild west. The Federation know the big players(Klingons and Romulans) but space was still so unexplored that they were running into new stuff left and right. In TNG, we are told the Federation has explored around 20% of the galaxy. However, despite large improvements in warp speeds, we see the Enterprise in that era is sent mostly on diplomatic hand shaking missions, to planets much closer to Earth ten the distances given in TOS. Suggesting that, even with faster warp speeds, space travel further outward just isn't realistic because its just so far away.
We see this same situation with the Dominion in DS9. Despite having existed for 2,000 years(over TWICE the time between ENT and modern day Discovery) The Dominion is still limited to the Gamma Quadrant. the only exploration outside the GQ the Dominion has done is via the 100 infant Changelings sent out centuries ago, who weren't expected to return for several more centuries. This problem is again referenced in Voyager, where, in VOY's 7th season, its mentioned by a Starfleet admiral that Janeway has become the first person ever to beat Kirk's record for number of first contacts. A feat attributed the only being possible because she was stranded in the DQ for 7 years.
This means that even someone like Picard, who had been a captain for anywhere from 35-44 years at that point(depending on what he did in the lost years between the stargazer and the ENT-D, hadn't achieved the same. The high days of space exploration were at an end by the time of TNG, and what we see of other ancient galactic powers like the Dominion suggest thats the limit any one group can really go.
Even with the development of a warp 9.99 drive(something they achieved in VOY S4 with the Prometheus class) they would really only be able to up that % a few more points before further travel again becomes unsustainable. Without the discovery of the Bajoran Wormhole, the best the Federation could have ever really hoped to achieve is around 25% exploration of the galaxy. Using the wormhole as a shortcut to bypass a lot of space, and start again at a far off area, they could probably bump that up to 50% or so. But warp speed limits means theres going to be about 50% of the galaxy that would just be beyond the Federation's reach.
While faster then warp travel methods do exist, Star Trek has always painted them as unreliable(quantum slipstream), or incredibly damaging even to Borg cubes(transwarp), which would make them not viable as large scale exploration systems. Something Discovery confirms in S3.
I forgot about that episode. For it to work means that either the burn did not get to delta or everyone fairly quickly went to something else that worked despite the burn since the hideously expensive travel in DSC S3 would have trapped him there otherwise.
The funny thing is, the point of the sharkjump was supposedly to free the writers from the constraints of being directly in the immediate past of the TOS era, but the burn idea actually hobbles the kind of stories they can tell.
Or literally neither of those things are ture and like Discovery S3 itself has shown, Diltihum is still around enough to allow for travel.
That's also not what a shark jump means, but I'll just add that to the list of words along with canon, fanon, headcanon, and retcon, that you have shown to not really understand the meaning of.
You can add it to any list you like, but the fact remains that the term "jump the shark" has become somewhat wider ranging than the narrower definition you pretend is the only one. Take the one from Wiktionary for instance:
jump the shark(Verb)
To undergo a storyline development which heralds a fundamental and generally disappointing change in direction.
Etymology: From a moment on the TV series Happy Days in which the character Fonzie jumped over a shark on waterskis, and from then on (supposedly) the show bore no similarity to its original form.
How is that not what they in essence did? S3 is certainly a fundamental change to the show, and while I am sure you do not agree with me, I (and a lot of other Trek fans) do see it as a disappointing change in direction for the show. I am hoping I am wrong about the latter part and that they have something good planned that requires this inauspicious beginning to lay the groundwork, but as I said before clever is not Kurtzman's thing. So, a fundamental storyline change in the show plus a disappointing outlook certainly fits the term.
Your word usage diversion aside, dilithium in S3 is implied to be so scarce and expensive that long trips like the one the Doctor planned to take would almost certainly be too expensive to even contemplate. And if there is almost nothing but local traffic the option to work passage probably would not have gotten him very far either.
Of course, the burn could have been some kind of false scarcity power-grab conspiracy of some sort, that kind of thing is common in Abrams plots, for example Revolution, the Abrams series the burn most resembles. Or it could be a way to force the general use of the DASH drive so they get the true jump drive that Kurtzman seems to want instead of warp.
As for the future thing being to clear the decks for the writers, so many people have complained about DSC being a prequel and were hammering the storylines pointing out the inconsistencies it has with other Treks (especially TOS) that the writers were undoubtedly getting hemmed in, especially with the ham-handed damage control from S1.
In theory jumping to the far future would free them of those constraints and quell the nasty reviews to some extent, but the way they did it also cut out a lot of possible plotlines and the silly JJisms (like the burn) they continue to base the show on opens them to as much criticism as their original situation did. I do applaud their not jumping onto the same "the heroes have/are the mcguffin being pursued" thing like Dark Matter devolved into and Blake's 7 was for several seasons (or at least so far anyway, DSC S3 has barely started).
Even Gene foresaw the inevitable narrative end the Federation would cause, and had the idea to just nuke it and do it all over again.
I doubt he "foresaw" anything; It was mere experimentation with another idea. Gene tried multiple things, after kinda setting them up in TOS or even in other productions (that went nowhere).
Gary 7, Khan and the idea of the Nietzscheans, then those other pilots he made for TV (Assignment Earth/Genesis II) etc.
Star Trek is FICTION. They can make it up. All this nonsense about them having no loose ends to tie up from canon ST products is irrelevant.
Except
A. That's been the point of the game since it came out.
B. People play STO to see things from the Star Trek TV shows and movies, not for whatever wholly made up nonsense someone just threw into the Trek universe out of nowhere.
C. Cryptic wants to avoid stepping on the toes of official Trek, so they aren't just going to go "well theres a giant alien empire in this part of the galaxy no one has heard of!" in case official Star Trek goes "actually there is this other thing entirely here"
D. Between known local space in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants, The Dominion's territory in the Gamma Quadrant, and the known empires of the Delta quadrant, we are looking at something like 60% of the galaxy being known.
If they have any problem, its that their ideas are too big. Saving entire quadrants or universes? WTF. Scale that nonsense down.
That's not that uncommon, even for Trek. The Dominion War was a war between the major powers of like 40-45% of the galaxy's total space.
A. No it hasn't. Trek is born on the idea of boldy going where no one has gone before, not rehashing hanging plot threads.
B. See A, and who dislikes the Lukari/Deferi to the point that they wanted them out, replaced with some canon species?
C. Too late. Path to 2409 was broken by ST:P. Also, the fear of doing something because it might conflict with yet to be canon at some unknown future date is an idiotic reason to not do something.
D. No we aren't. Nor do we need to deal in the unknown. Example: Trill symbiotes are afflicted with a new disease and make the Trill go crazy. Now we have to fight Trill who have stolen FED ships and find the cure without wiping them out.
E? It wasn't a good idea then, and its not now. You can't keep making conflicts larger and larger, nor does every conflict need to be large scale, super high stakes in the first place.
not only that, but the J was meant to be a galactic explorer...so where the hell is the federation presence in other galaxies and why aren't they shipping dilithium from any of those? everything said about the burn so far seems to indicate it was confined to the milky way
^^^
That was from Doug Drexler (IE His original; concept for the ship). That aspect of the concept was never accepted or canonized by anything said by the ENT show producers or anything stated by Daniels on screen in the episode.
Even the STO version is scaled down drastically from Doug Drexler's stated ship concept.
(It's the same for the N-X01 'refit' that's in STO. Again a concept designed by Doug Drexler which never appeared in ENT or any Star Trek series or film to date.)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Comments
You mean like how the Excelsior originally would randomly fail to transwarp when it was put in game?
They only appear for a few seconds in a flashback-shot. That's literally nothing to work with as of now. Of course it's possible that a few of these ships are somehow still out there (like being in drydock during the burn, similar to how Pegasus survived the EW-attack of the Cylons) and may cross paths with the DIS-crew lateron.
Book's Millenium-Falcon-knock-off seems much more likely.
Some of the ships also remind me of the Phamysht-ships in Star Control: Origins.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/945085779276759006/FC6659EC1828DE814C2A839E96B16767956A52C8/
A wizard did it.
Frankly this doesn't even matter so much IMO. There are so many things throughout all of Trek that are handwaved away with technobabble or by other means.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I forgot about that episode. For it to work means that either the burn did not get to delta or everyone fairly quickly went to something else that worked despite the burn since the hideously expensive travel in DSC S3 would have trapped him there otherwise.
The funny thing is, the point of the sharkjump was supposedly to free the writers from the constraints of being directly in the immediate past of the TOS era, but the burn idea actually hobbles the kind of stories they can tell.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Technicalities apart, my question wasn't about whether the Federation explored the entire galaxy (it's in fact pretty much unlikely if we go with a more realistic path and the whole "20% of the galaxy explored" is ludicrous in the first place with how vast space and the galaxy itself are), but how the episode makes it canon. For all we know, the Federation could be around in the last time period, but the Doctor's backup wants to go back to the Alpha Quadrant specifically.
Also, Dear God, can you stop being condescending and questioning people's intelligence (as opposed to people just missing/forgetting some details) for 5 freaking minutes?
Likewise the ENT box set says Daniel's is from the year 3000 and not the 3050s as dialogue could suggest.
And let us not forget the 29th century being 400 years after the 2370s in many lines.
Also, the fact they mentioned he chose a small vessel to accomplish that gives more credibility to the Federation actually having a foothold in the Delta Quadrant. Considering all the disasters that happened to Voyager, even if the Doctor's backup had improved tech from several centuries in the future, going there using a small vessel would still be unwise. It's more likely he grabbed a small craft to head to the nearest Federation spaceport so he could take a bigger transport ship to the Alpha Quadrant.
So yeah, exactly.
Oh yes that just reminded of the admiral on DS9 that said the eugenics war of the 90s was 200 years before the 2379
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The burn is some nonsense anyway, its most likely going to be undone in some bull way.
Edit: If you saw this before the edit, ignore the other stuff, I don't know what happened there the quote got so messed up
You can add it to any list you like, but the fact remains that the term "jump the shark" has become somewhat wider ranging than the narrower definition you pretend is the only one. Take the one from Wiktionary for instance:
How is that not what they in essence did? S3 is certainly a fundamental change to the show, and while I am sure you do not agree with me, I (and a lot of other Trek fans) do see it as a disappointing change in direction for the show. I am hoping I am wrong about the latter part and that they have something good planned that requires this inauspicious beginning to lay the groundwork, but as I said before clever is not Kurtzman's thing. So, a fundamental storyline change in the show plus a disappointing outlook certainly fits the term.
Your word usage diversion aside, dilithium in S3 is implied to be so scarce and expensive that long trips like the one the Doctor planned to take would almost certainly be too expensive to even contemplate. And if there is almost nothing but local traffic the option to work passage probably would not have gotten him very far either.
Of course, the burn could have been some kind of false scarcity power-grab conspiracy of some sort, that kind of thing is common in Abrams plots, for example Revolution, the Abrams series the burn most resembles. Or it could be a way to force the general use of the DASH drive so they get the true jump drive that Kurtzman seems to want instead of warp.
As for the future thing being to clear the decks for the writers, so many people have complained about DSC being a prequel and were hammering the storylines pointing out the inconsistencies it has with other Treks (especially TOS) that the writers were undoubtedly getting hemmed in, especially with the ham-handed damage control from S1.
In theory jumping to the far future would free them of those constraints and quell the nasty reviews to some extent, but the way they did it also cut out a lot of possible plotlines and the silly JJisms (like the burn) they continue to base the show on opens them to as much criticism as their original situation did. I do applaud their not jumping onto the same "the heroes have/are the mcguffin being pursued" thing like Dark Matter devolved into and Blake's 7 was for several seasons (or at least so far anyway, DSC S3 has barely started).
I doubt he "foresaw" anything; It was mere experimentation with another idea. Gene tried multiple things, after kinda setting them up in TOS or even in other productions (that went nowhere).
Gary 7, Khan and the idea of the Nietzscheans, then those other pilots he made for TV (Assignment Earth/Genesis II) etc.
If they have any problem, its that their ideas are too big. Saving entire quadrants or universes? WTF. Scale that nonsense down.
A. No it hasn't. Trek is born on the idea of boldy going where no one has gone before, not rehashing hanging plot threads.
B. See A, and who dislikes the Lukari/Deferi to the point that they wanted them out, replaced with some canon species?
C. Too late. Path to 2409 was broken by ST:P. Also, the fear of doing something because it might conflict with yet to be canon at some unknown future date is an idiotic reason to not do something.
D. No we aren't. Nor do we need to deal in the unknown. Example: Trill symbiotes are afflicted with a new disease and make the Trill go crazy. Now we have to fight Trill who have stolen FED ships and find the cure without wiping them out.
E? It wasn't a good idea then, and its not now. You can't keep making conflicts larger and larger, nor does every conflict need to be large scale, super high stakes in the first place.
That was from Doug Drexler (IE His original; concept for the ship). That aspect of the concept was never accepted or canonized by anything said by the ENT show producers or anything stated by Daniels on screen in the episode.
Even the STO version is scaled down drastically from Doug Drexler's stated ship concept.
(It's the same for the N-X01 'refit' that's in STO. Again a concept designed by Doug Drexler which never appeared in ENT or any Star Trek series or film to date.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."