At first after watching the trailer for this show, I was extremely underwhelmed. Even so, I figured I'd give the show a chance and watch what I could. Thanks to YouTube, I was able to watch the first episode. I know I'm late to the party but I figured I'd chime in.
The animation style for the show fits the "comedy" theme they attempted. The ship design is not the worst I've seen but it still makes no sense to me. The uniforms look nice. The general story was actually decent. Mariner actually having been to the planet before during her last assignment and seemingly made friends and wanted to help them out this time, was a good thing.
That said, the "humor" I didn't find funny. I didn't laugh at a single thing in the episode. And that may actually be a backhanded compliment since I didn't even react to any of the ludicrous events that happened either. Like Ransom getting bit and blowing off the need to getting it looked at. Or the whole spider thing with Boimler.
The 4 main characters, eh. Mariner is annoying and is the least likable for me. Boimler might okay at best, but still kind of meh. Tendi and Rutherford actually were the ones I liked the most. The Captain's relationship with Mariner I kind of suspected, but how negative it was left a bad taste in my mouth. And the Admiral...
Overall, I don't think I'll go out of my way to watch any other episodes of this show. I really have no idea who this show is aimed towards, but it's clearly not me. And that's fine. Not everyone is going to like everything. I actually hope that if enough people like the show and it becomes a success, it allows other takes on Star Trek shows a chance.
Humor is completely subjective, and I laughed at pretty much every joke (not always because it was "funny" but sometimes just because it was ridiculous). That said I have pretty much the same take on the characters as you. Mariner starting to annoy me, Boimler is...like you said, he's ok. But Tendi and Rutherford are just fun to watch; they are definitely my favorites.
But again, we're talking about completely subjective things here and not like the show or not wanting to keep watching is completely valid. But I find it fun overall and plan to keep watching.
and absolutely no one has yet to comment on the fact that the ship's doctor is a cat...i seriously hope they include a running gag of her randomly knocking medical equipment off tables the same way earth cats like knocking things off their perches​​
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Kirk and crew abandoned a citizen of the Federation on an alien world, surrounded by hostile artificial life forms that they themselves had built and programmed. Yet nobody went on trial for any of that. (We won't even go into the Prime Directive, which Kirk seemed to regard more as the Prime Suggestion...)
Picard placed an untried, underage civilian in charge of navigation aboard Starfleet's premiere ship. This resulted in numerous issues, ranging from a diplomatic crisis on Rubicun III to the release of a new life form in the ship's computer. His first officer refused promotion and reassignment to his own command for the better part of a decade, a process which in any other ship service, military or civilian, would have resulted in running afoul of "up or out" (in fact, some civilian shipping companies would have fired him quickly for that, as there's no shortage of lower-ranking officers who want the job). The ship's counselor was a walking, talking privacy and security violation. Yet none of them were jailed by the end of the series, and in fact Commander I Don't Wanna was promoted to Captain and given command of a fleet in the sequel series!
Oh yeah, speaking of that untried civilian - he later went to Starfleet Academy (finally!), where he participated in an event that violated numerous safety protocols and resulted in the death of a fellow cadet. He still graduated.
DS9 gave us a station commander who participated in a conspiracy to commit murder and espionage, and covered up the evidence later. The primary distinction here is that he at least admitted he was in the wrong, and felt guilty about the whole thing. (I won't count the other incidents on DS9, or VOY, because the former featured interactions with mostly non-citizens of the Federation, and the latter had a crew that was, by necessity, made up largely of rebels against Federation law and Starfleet regulations.)
As we can readily see, "realism" jumped out the airlock several lightyears back. Why hold this series to a higher standard than the previous live-action series? Particularly when Boimler's injury was the sort that can be easily handled with a couple of minutes of protoplaser, and reporting it would probably have been seen as being like reporting that somebody came in for a band-aid?
As we can readily see, "realism" jumped out the airlock several lightyears back. Why hold this series to a higher standard than the previous live-action series?
Oh don't worry, I'm not. If any show, be it TOS, TNG, or whatever, had one crew member drunkenly injure another and then less than 10 minutes later have the captain say they are looking for a reason to get rid of that crew member, I would ask why the drunken-injury incident from less than 10 minutes ago was completely ignored. But because this specific thread is about this specific show, this specific show is the one I'm talking about in this specific thread.
Particularly when Boimler's injury was the sort that can be easily handled with a couple of minutes of protoplaser, and reporting it would probably have been seen as being like reporting that somebody came in for a band-aid?
Not sure why you are so hell-bent on hand-waiving this away. I know Mariner is supposed to be some kind of demi-god who can do everything herself, but unless you are suggesting Boimler didn't even go to sickback I refer you back to my previous comment above. Assuming he did go to sickbay, the doctor definitely would have informed the captain of what happened. And then the captain wouldn't still be looking for a reason to get rid of Mariner, she would have it.
All that said, maybe the show just isn't supposed to make sense. I'm not saying that as a criticism. Maybe that is what the creators actually intend. I'm not saying that can't be fun in it's own way. But if that is the intent, then let's just admit it and not bother trying to rationalize anything going forward.
I mean she's actively trying to kill him in her drunkeness,
I disagree. I don't think she was trying to kill him, or even hurt him. I think she was playing around. She shouldn't have been, but my point is that I didn't get the impression it was intentional.
That said, I'm also going to have to disagree with smokebailey's apparent view that just because it's a comedy it doesn't need to make sense. What we're talking about is not some 'technicality'; it's a completely legitimate point. The show completely ignores the bat'leth incident as soon as the scene is over, yet makes it clear the captain is actively looking for a reason to get rid of her (and that certainly would have qualified).
I mean, if we're just going to go with 'the show doesn't make sense' I guess I can buy that, but you can't have it both ways. Either it does, or it doesn't. So if it doesn't, then there's no need arguing about whether anything makes sense going forward.
I'm reminded of a lawyer explaining why if you shot someone in the leg or the hand you'll still get prosecuted for attempted murder. Simply put, the prosecutor is going to argue that you definitely wanted to kill them, but you're just a terrible shot (and if you were actually terrible shot, your hands start shaking in the adrenaline rush of the situation, or they moved the wrong way, that leg or hand shot you took could become a fatal wound somewhere else very easily.) So you don't just shoot in someone's direction unless they present a deadly threat, despite what any politicians might say on the matter.
Whether Mariner wanted to kill him or not, she's doing something exceedingly likely to result in serious injury or death of another person that is not a threat to her (and did result in serious injury).
I don't subscribe to the idea that the show doesn't need to make sense either. It doesn't have to be completely 'realistic' or logical, but it should be internally consistent and use the elements it creates. If its not, and you notice, it takes you out.
Its a Chekhov's gun. They went through the trouble to set up that scene, and then it doesn't ever matter again, even when the audience is imminently expecting it to come into play when Boimler is tasked by the captain.
I'm reminded of a lawyer explaining why if you shot someone in the leg or the hand you'll still get prosecuted for attempted murder. Simply put, the prosecutor is going to argue that you definitely wanted to kill them, but you're just a terrible shot (and if you were actually terrible shot, your hands start shaking in the adrenaline rush of the situation, or they moved the wrong way, that leg or hand shot you took could become a fatal wound somewhere else very easily.) So you don't just shoot in someone's direction unless they present a deadly threat, despite what any politicians might say on the matter.
Apparently we are talking about 2 different things. In your previous post I *thought* you were speaking from the perspective of a viewer of a TV show, and saying you actually thought she was trying to kill him. And as a fellow viewer, I'm saying I don't think she was, nor do I think that was what the writers were trying to portray in that scene.
However, it seems you are (now) talking about how the situation might be viewed in a legal sense, which is not what I'm talking about at all. So, I guess we're talking about different things?
I'm reminded of a lawyer explaining why if you shot someone in the leg or the hand you'll still get prosecuted for attempted murder. Simply put, the prosecutor is going to argue that you definitely wanted to kill them, but you're just a terrible shot (and if you were actually terrible shot, your hands start shaking in the adrenaline rush of the situation, or they moved the wrong way, that leg or hand shot you took could become a fatal wound somewhere else very easily.) So you don't just shoot in someone's direction unless they present a deadly threat, despite what any politicians might say on the matter.
Apparently we are talking about 2 different things. In your previous post I *thought* you were speaking from the perspective of a viewer of a TV show, and saying you actually thought she was trying to kill him. And as a fellow viewer, I'm saying I don't think she was, nor do I think that was what the writers were trying to portray in that scene.
However, it seems you are (now) talking about how the situation might be viewed in a legal sense, which is not what I'm talking about at all. So, I guess we're talking about different things?
Well I'll try to explain. I'm not trying to bring any legal perspective into it, even as it might sound like it. Instead, its just a matter of fact perspective, maybe slightly philosophical. And it is based on what I was watching and how I see things. And I'm sure my perspective is skewed from the view of someone who takes safe weapon handling more seriously than Hollywood types.
First I'll say I'd entirely grant the statement that she didn't want to kill him. However that is different from trying to kill him. You can try to kill someone without wanting to do so, if you're say forced to fight one another, or lack control of your faculties, and usually basic self defense is reluctant as you have no other options. We've seen this sort of thing in Star Trek before (Amok Time.)
So from my perspective her intent is mostly irrelevant. I mean she may not have intended or wanted to slice his leg open, but she did. She swung the batleth around and he was forced to actively dodge it until she finally made contact. Her actions actively put him in bodily danger. Her actions injured him. Whatever her intent, she acted to hurt him and was entirely likely to have killed him if he didn't dodge as well as he did. She was using the batleth exactly as it was designed to be used, and focused against a single target, Boimler, as opposed to randomly attacking walls and other objects nor was she swinging the batleth in his direction, but just out of reach.
So I think its more than fair to say she was trying to kill him. Did she really want to? Well probably not, but in her drunken haze she lost her ability to not go through the motions. Only once she actually sliced him open did she snap out of her drunken rampage and stop from going further. A different swing or a less competent dodge and he could be dead.
So trying to kill him is the answer to all that, in my opinion.
For another take on it though, as the show goes on we learn she seems to have the answer to everything and doesn't make mistakes. So, drawing on that, we can retroactively realize that she was definitely doing it on purpose, because she's right, she has experience, and everyone else is wrong. With that we can probably argue she wasn't trying to kill him, because if she was, he would actually be dead, as she knew exactly how well he could dodge. I'm not going to subscribe to that logic, though, for reasons that should be obvious.
There is also the possibility that Boimler did not go into detail about how the injury happened. For the paperwork-averse like the doctor, simply saying it was an accident without mentioning Mariner caused it by playing with a bat'leth would have probably resulted in a checkbox-item report of either minor work related accident or possibly a liberty injury.
Something like that probably would not have made it to the captain's attention unless there was something obviously off about it (and Boimler seems to be enough of a fumble-fingered goof that he is probably a frequent patient), especially if the captain did not order the crotchety old cat to report anything and everything involving Mariner no matter how innocuous (she seemed rather cagey with who she brought into the watch-Mariner circle).
Kirk and crew abandoned a citizen of the Federation on an alien world, surrounded by hostile artificial life forms that they themselves had built and programmed. Yet nobody went on trial for any of that. (We won't even go into the Prime Directive, which Kirk seemed to regard more as the Prime Suggestion...)
Picard placed an untried, underage civilian in charge of navigation aboard Starfleet's premiere ship. This resulted in numerous issues, ranging from a diplomatic crisis on Rubicun III to the release of a new life form in the ship's computer. His first officer refused promotion and reassignment to his own command for the better part of a decade, a process which in any other ship service, military or civilian, would have resulted in running afoul of "up or out" (in fact, some civilian shipping companies would have fired him quickly for that, as there's no shortage of lower-ranking officers who want the job). The ship's counselor was a walking, talking privacy and security violation. Yet none of them were jailed by the end of the series, and in fact Commander I Don't Wanna was promoted to Captain and given command of a fleet in the sequel series!
Oh yeah, speaking of that untried civilian - he later went to Starfleet Academy (finally!), where he participated in an event that violated numerous safety protocols and resulted in the death of a fellow cadet. He still graduated.
DS9 gave us a station commander who participated in a conspiracy to commit murder and espionage, and covered up the evidence later. The primary distinction here is that he at least admitted he was in the wrong, and felt guilty about the whole thing. (I won't count the other incidents on DS9, or VOY, because the former featured interactions with mostly non-citizens of the Federation, and the latter had a crew that was, by necessity, made up largely of rebels against Federation law and Starfleet regulations.)
As we can readily see, "realism" jumped out the airlock several lightyears back. Why hold this series to a higher standard than the previous live-action series? Particularly when Boimler's injury was the sort that can be easily handled with a couple of minutes of protoplaser, and reporting it would probably have been seen as being like reporting that somebody came in for a band-aid?
Kirk was supposed to be the loose canon type from the start, if he had not gone into Starfleet he would probably have ended up a grifter like Mudd. And people like that, while often trouble in a peacetime service often become very effective in more dangerous times and places (like the wild frontier) where out of the box thinking can save lives and salvage the situation up to and including preventing war.
The almost bucolic state that the TNG Starfleet was in after the long period of relative peace would not have tolerated Kirk's antics of course, but that was much later and a completely different political and operational environment. Remember, when Kirk was captain of the Enterprise the subspace relay net was very sparse out on the frontier and captains were accorded more leeway to act on their own since micromanaging is not very practical when messages can take hours or even a few days to make the round trip to HQ and back. Don't think in modern naval terms, TOS was based mainly on Victorian sailing ship days.
The civilian you mention is Mudd left with the Stella androids I take it?
Back in sailing ship times stranding was not used lightly, but it was done in extreme cases, and Mudd happened to be the 23rd century equivalent of that. In his bio that was on a screen in "Mudd's Women" it is mentioned that he has a partial immunity to the conditioning they use in the correctional centers. While that neatly explains why the older Mudd is a bit milder than the DSC version while still a slippery grifter, it also meant that he would have likely ended up in a long term holding facility for untreatable cases, like the one Garth was in, had Kirk followed procedure and formally brought charges.
Kirk actually did him a favor since the androids would not have actually harmed him (and quite possibly had orders to let him go after a certain period of time though they did not go into that in the show), and he was likely to escape the androids in any case (they would not have have been able to hold Kirk for long for instance). There is the possibility that the Stella treatment could break the previous conditioning and the insane melomaniac Mudd reemerge but that is a different story, and it is not like they presented Kirk as never making any mistakes.
As for Picard and Wesely, for some odd reason the writers chose to resurrect the 19th century version of the Midshipman practice. Back in those days the average age for an apprentice officer to start was eleven or twelve, Wesely was actually rather old in comparison. As a midshipman he was expected to do a lot of the things an actual junior officer would do though he would not have a commission himself until later, which is exactly what happened in the show. It was realistic, just not today's practice.
If the Academy was an elite officer training center then yes, the incident Wesley was in would have gotten the whole bunch booted out without question. But it isn't one, it is the regular service training path (or at least it is as far as the basic program is concerned, they may be more discriminatory when they return for the equivalent of OCS that grants them access to ranks above the lower half of lieutenant) and the judgement was that as the senior cadet and chief instigator Locarno was solely responsible for the ill-fated maneuver so the rest were eligible for graduation albeit with serious black marks on their records that would haunt their careers from then on.
As for Troi, they had full Betazoids with fully functional telepathy in Starfleet, her empathy and occasional telepathic flash was nowhere near as much of a "security breach" as they could potentially be. And in the kind of missions they did her abilities were somewhat useful, though they would have been much more so if the writers didn't mostly ignore her as simply eye-candy fanservice. It is one of those things TNG did not know how to write properly for.
Sisko had unrealistic parts, but the black-ops thing was chillingly realistic. Things like that are not common by any stretch, but massaging a situation, even to that extreme degree, to recruit allies is not exactly unknown either. If he had blown it he would have been toast, but since it worked his superiors turned a blind eye to the details (especially if Section 31 caught wind of it).
Riker and his promotion avoidance would be a problem with the modern navy, but again the 19th century navy with its undercurrent of charisma cliques was another matter and the behavior would have been ignored (though eventually the promotion offers would have dried up because they would have assumed he would refuse again), and Star Trek has one foot in each so it is not that big of a deal.
In fact, the idea that the future is just like today but with more compact and powerful tech is a big problem with DSC and much of the other sci-fi TV and movies coming out in the last few years. Viewers today tend to judge everything by the neat eye-candy effects and give little thought to what it is supposed to represent. That is why a lot of people think DSC technology is so far ahead of TOS tech because DSC looks more like cutting edge 2017 instead of looking (and listening) to what the fictional-tech can do rather than whether it was done with modern electronics and CGI or old physical models and travelling mat film compositors.
Note: what I'm about to say isn't aimed directly at the previous post because the previous post is just a response to someone else who 'did it first'. That said, please don't drag this thread off topic with detailed discussion of the other shows like happened with the trailer thread. The entire reason I created thread was because of how off topic the trailer thread had gotten, to the point where people were just responding to each others posts about the "other stuff" and not even talking about Lower Decks anymore.
Kirk and crew abandoned a citizen of the Federation on an alien world, surrounded by hostile artificial life forms that they themselves had built and programmed. Yet nobody went on trial for any of that. (We won't even go into the Prime Directive, which Kirk seemed to regard more as the Prime Suggestion...)
Picard placed an untried, underage civilian in charge of navigation aboard Starfleet's premiere ship. This resulted in numerous issues, ranging from a diplomatic crisis on Rubicun III to the release of a new life form in the ship's computer. His first officer refused promotion and reassignment to his own command for the better part of a decade, a process which in any other ship service, military or civilian, would have resulted in running afoul of "up or out" (in fact, some civilian shipping companies would have fired him quickly for that, as there's no shortage of lower-ranking officers who want the job). The ship's counselor was a walking, talking privacy and security violation. Yet none of them were jailed by the end of the series, and in fact Commander I Don't Wanna was promoted to Captain and given command of a fleet in the sequel series!
Oh yeah, speaking of that untried civilian - he later went to Starfleet Academy (finally!), where he participated in an event that violated numerous safety protocols and resulted in the death of a fellow cadet. He still graduated.
DS9 gave us a station commander who participated in a conspiracy to commit murder and espionage, and covered up the evidence later. The primary distinction here is that he at least admitted he was in the wrong, and felt guilty about the whole thing. (I won't count the other incidents on DS9, or VOY, because the former featured interactions with mostly non-citizens of the Federation, and the latter had a crew that was, by necessity, made up largely of rebels against Federation law and Starfleet regulations.)
As we can readily see, "realism" jumped out the airlock several lightyears back. Why hold this series to a higher standard than the previous live-action series? Particularly when Boimler's injury was the sort that can be easily handled with a couple of minutes of protoplaser, and reporting it would probably have been seen as being like reporting that somebody came in for a band-aid?
I find the Prime Directive only works on paper.
It was ok in TOS, but by TNG, it became like elite dogma or something...as in never, EVER question the Prime Directive, B*tch!
Like the Voth and their Doctrine. There were times, such as "Home Ward", for example, where, had I been on the Enterprise, I would have resigned and threw my badge and pips into Picard's face.
If Doctor Who existed in the Trek verse, like those cross over comics....I could see Starfleet's equivalent of a wanted poster, with "Federation Public Enemy#1" with Tom Baker's picture on it.
Best line from this: In the future, there is no hunger, war, or poverty. Unless you’re not a member of the Federation’s Country Club, then %$#2 you. %$#@ off and die.
Anyhow....
Mariner, with her hands on experience, probably healed Boimler herself. Heck, she knew some of the local leaves on 'Little Qo'Nos' work as pain killers.
I bet Mariner did something....involving breaking regulations, but saved a lot of folks in the process, but get demoted anyhow.
Happened to Kirk.....hell, Starfleet 'rewarded' him with the Enterprise-A, which was essentially held together with chewing gum and duct tape. The Certitos is not too different.
So I think its more than fair to say she was trying to kill him.
Okie dokie. We'll just have to agree to disagree then. No problem
Yes, we have different perspectives. The horror.
I'm hoping that Mariner actually grows and changes over the season (not that I'll see it happen.) They seem to be pushing her Mary Sue status pretty hard in the first and second episode (based on what I've heard about it at least,) so maybe they are setting her up for a fall later that moderates her character, and they could use the batleth incident to remind her she isn't perfect.
They seem to be pushing her Mary Sue status pretty hard in the first and second episode.
A Mary Sue is a character who everyone loves, never makes mistakes, and is the solution to every problem.
Many people, in universe, don't like her, shes made a ton of mistakes(hence constant demotions), and she isn't the solution to most problems(in fact, she causes them)
She is nowhere close to a Mary Sue by any definition of the word.
Beat me to it.
Least she saved Boimler's butt a few times.
To me, Burnham feels more like a Mary Sue....she had all these skills, corrected everyone, everyone said how great and amazing she is, felt like the entire cosmos revolved around here, and is like some sort of 'chosen one'.
They seem to be pushing her Mary Sue status pretty hard in the first and second episode.
A Mary Sue is a character who everyone loves, never makes mistakes, and is the solution to every problem.
Many people, in universe, don't like her, shes made a ton of mistakes(hence constant demotions), and she isn't the solution to most problems(in fact, she causes them)
She is nowhere close to a Mary Sue by any definition of the word.
For the record, there is no one "official" definition of that term. Yes, I know it's history. But again, there is no one "official" definition. For reference, google says:
(originally in fan fiction) a type of female character who is depicted as unrealistically lacking in flaws or weaknesses.
So google's definition does NOT require everyone to like them and it does NOT require them to have NO flaws or weaknesses, only for them to be so few or minor that it seems unrealistic.
But for the sake of argument, let's just say that term doesn't apply to Mariner. In that case, it sounds like we actually need a new term to describe her:
But for the sake of argument, let's just say that term doesn't apply to Mariner. In that case, it sounds like we actually need a new term to describe her:
But for the sake of argument, let's just say that term doesn't apply to Mariner. In that case, it sounds like we actually need a new term to describe her:
1: she is good at "almost" everything
2: she seems to know "almost" everything.
3: she brags about being the best.
What term would you recommend?
She's a Rick Sanchez.
So your take on Mariner is she's an entertaining abusive jerk? Not sure I agree completely, but definitely an interesting take!
So your take on Mariner is she's an entertaining abusive jerk? Not sure I agree completely, but definitely an interesting take!
Ya pretty much lol
She's more like a drop of Rick, maybe even a starting point before her character grows in other directions. But she has a level of mastery of the universe outside of the ship, but is somewhat in handcuffs inside of it.
I think she was disillusioned of the senior staff, especially what caused her demotion, and felt a lot more at home with the ensigns.
Heck, the captain made no mention of Boimler and Mariner in regards to the pink slime that saved the day, saying it was the efforts of her senior staff that did it.
That would leave a bit of a nasty flavor in one's mouth. Reminds of me the episode of Roughnecks: The Starship Troopers Chronicles, where the Roughnecks had a mission to capture a baby fire bug, saved the day, and the douchebag officer in charge got all the credit, and a medal, whilst the Roughnecks just got 2 hours of sleep and a new assignment.
New episode! Hahaha the hand-clasped punching. Classic Trek fight move.
And, "Congratulations, you look like a #$%@ scratching post."
I enjoyed it a lot. I'm glad Ransom was the one to fight the big dude (and win, at that) and I'm glad the statue at the end of the show was none of the main characters from recent Trek shows
Unless Boimler considerably changes in the coming episodes, we know however that the future doesn't always get things right.
It felt a bit like a nod to the O'Brien at Work comics "we're aware of you, we even find you funny, but O'Brien is actually awesome and important and people love him!". But maybe that's just me projecting my own feelings.
The Kirk-Two-Fist punch thing wasn't the only nod to "traditional" Trek... The whole idea that Starfleet officers can go toe to toe with powerful enemies is pretty much a staple.. How many Klingons and Jem'Hadar did Sisko, Dax and even Kira (not even Starfleet, technically) beat! Starfleet combat training must really be way above the average.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
New episode! Hahaha the hand-clasped punching. Classic Trek fight move.
And, "Congratulations, you look like a #$%@ scratching post."
I enjoyed it a lot. I'm glad Ransom was the one to fight the big dude (and win, at that) and I'm glad the statue at the end of the show was none of the main characters from recent Trek shows
Pity he's a douche bag and put Mariner in the brig for rolled up sleeves.
SENTIENT TARGS! If I didn't mishear that, and assuming they confused sentient and sapient, it's canon. Okay Cryptic, Targ expansion when? I'd like a playable version, doffs, boffs and a ship. (Ransom mentions them during his 'things that can happen on away missions' talk).
The fight scene checked so many boxes. Shirt rip, double fist punch, negotiation through ritual combat - a shame they didn't use the TOS fighting theme. And Kirks missile dropkick was missing, but that was later performed by the doctor.
Ransom is awesome, probably because as a hybrid of bearded Riker and Kirk he can check most Trek tropes.
And you can insult Klingons with insane bass. Who knew ;D
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
New episode! Hahaha the hand-clasped punching. Classic Trek fight move.
And, "Congratulations, you look like a #$%@ scratching post."
I enjoyed it a lot. I'm glad Ransom was the one to fight the big dude (and win, at that) and I'm glad the statue at the end of the show was none of the main characters from recent Trek shows
Pity he's a douche bag and put Mariner in the brig for rolled up sleeves.
Yeah, so that comment has nothing to do with my post.
But since you raised the issue, it was actually kind of nice to have someone treat Mariner the way she treats Boimler. Not the "throwing in the brig" part(only because she doesn't have the authority), but simply the "I'm better than everyone else" attitude she definitely shares with Ransom. Maybe it will give her something to think about (but probably not).
SENTIENT TARGS! If I didn't mishear that, and assuming they confused sentient and sapient, it's canon. Okay Cryptic, Targ expansion when? I'd like a playable version, doffs, boffs and a ship. (Ransom mentions them during his 'things that can happen on away missions' talk).
The fight scene checked so many boxes. Shirt rip, double fist punch, negotiation through ritual combat - a shame they didn't use the TOS fighting theme. And Kirks missile dropkick was missing, but that was later performed by the doctor.
Ransom is awesome, probably because as a hybrid of bearded Riker and Kirk he can check most Trek tropes.
And you can insult Klingons with insane bass. Who knew ;D
I think he said sentient tar, referring to when Tasha Yar got killed by that living sludge guy.
> @smokebailey said: > (Quote) > > I think he said sentient tar, referring to when Tasha Yar got killed by that living sludge guy.
That would be pretty racist, though, as the 'sludge guy' is a Sheliak and their people even hold (very cold) diplomatic relations with the federation. However it might be possible. But I still like to believe
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
> @shadowfang240 said: > uh...armus is not a sheliak - he is not even REMOTELY close to a sheliak​​
Oh my bad. Yes Armus is not a Sheliak, but 'not even remotely' is a bit of a stretch. They both are 'sludge people' and had the same voice actor
But yes, busted. I guess I am the non-carbon racist here, mea culpa.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
Humor is completely subjective, and I laughed at pretty much every joke (not always because it was "funny" but sometimes just because it was ridiculous). That said I have pretty much the same take on the characters as you. Mariner starting to annoy me, Boimler is...like you said, he's ok. But Tendi and Rutherford are just fun to watch; they are definitely my favorites.
But again, we're talking about completely subjective things here and not like the show or not wanting to keep watching is completely valid. But I find it fun overall and plan to keep watching.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Kirk and crew abandoned a citizen of the Federation on an alien world, surrounded by hostile artificial life forms that they themselves had built and programmed. Yet nobody went on trial for any of that. (We won't even go into the Prime Directive, which Kirk seemed to regard more as the Prime Suggestion...)
Picard placed an untried, underage civilian in charge of navigation aboard Starfleet's premiere ship. This resulted in numerous issues, ranging from a diplomatic crisis on Rubicun III to the release of a new life form in the ship's computer. His first officer refused promotion and reassignment to his own command for the better part of a decade, a process which in any other ship service, military or civilian, would have resulted in running afoul of "up or out" (in fact, some civilian shipping companies would have fired him quickly for that, as there's no shortage of lower-ranking officers who want the job). The ship's counselor was a walking, talking privacy and security violation. Yet none of them were jailed by the end of the series, and in fact Commander I Don't Wanna was promoted to Captain and given command of a fleet in the sequel series!
Oh yeah, speaking of that untried civilian - he later went to Starfleet Academy (finally!), where he participated in an event that violated numerous safety protocols and resulted in the death of a fellow cadet. He still graduated.
DS9 gave us a station commander who participated in a conspiracy to commit murder and espionage, and covered up the evidence later. The primary distinction here is that he at least admitted he was in the wrong, and felt guilty about the whole thing. (I won't count the other incidents on DS9, or VOY, because the former featured interactions with mostly non-citizens of the Federation, and the latter had a crew that was, by necessity, made up largely of rebels against Federation law and Starfleet regulations.)
As we can readily see, "realism" jumped out the airlock several lightyears back. Why hold this series to a higher standard than the previous live-action series? Particularly when Boimler's injury was the sort that can be easily handled with a couple of minutes of protoplaser, and reporting it would probably have been seen as being like reporting that somebody came in for a band-aid?
Oh don't worry, I'm not. If any show, be it TOS, TNG, or whatever, had one crew member drunkenly injure another and then less than 10 minutes later have the captain say they are looking for a reason to get rid of that crew member, I would ask why the drunken-injury incident from less than 10 minutes ago was completely ignored. But because this specific thread is about this specific show, this specific show is the one I'm talking about in this specific thread.
Not sure why you are so hell-bent on hand-waiving this away. I know Mariner is supposed to be some kind of demi-god who can do everything herself, but unless you are suggesting Boimler didn't even go to sickback I refer you back to my previous comment above. Assuming he did go to sickbay, the doctor definitely would have informed the captain of what happened. And then the captain wouldn't still be looking for a reason to get rid of Mariner, she would have it.
All that said, maybe the show just isn't supposed to make sense. I'm not saying that as a criticism. Maybe that is what the creators actually intend. I'm not saying that can't be fun in it's own way. But if that is the intent, then let's just admit it and not bother trying to rationalize anything going forward.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I'm reminded of a lawyer explaining why if you shot someone in the leg or the hand you'll still get prosecuted for attempted murder. Simply put, the prosecutor is going to argue that you definitely wanted to kill them, but you're just a terrible shot (and if you were actually terrible shot, your hands start shaking in the adrenaline rush of the situation, or they moved the wrong way, that leg or hand shot you took could become a fatal wound somewhere else very easily.) So you don't just shoot in someone's direction unless they present a deadly threat, despite what any politicians might say on the matter.
Whether Mariner wanted to kill him or not, she's doing something exceedingly likely to result in serious injury or death of another person that is not a threat to her (and did result in serious injury).
I don't subscribe to the idea that the show doesn't need to make sense either. It doesn't have to be completely 'realistic' or logical, but it should be internally consistent and use the elements it creates. If its not, and you notice, it takes you out.
Its a Chekhov's gun. They went through the trouble to set up that scene, and then it doesn't ever matter again, even when the audience is imminently expecting it to come into play when Boimler is tasked by the captain.
Apparently we are talking about 2 different things. In your previous post I *thought* you were speaking from the perspective of a viewer of a TV show, and saying you actually thought she was trying to kill him. And as a fellow viewer, I'm saying I don't think she was, nor do I think that was what the writers were trying to portray in that scene.
However, it seems you are (now) talking about how the situation might be viewed in a legal sense, which is not what I'm talking about at all. So, I guess we're talking about different things?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Well I'll try to explain. I'm not trying to bring any legal perspective into it, even as it might sound like it. Instead, its just a matter of fact perspective, maybe slightly philosophical. And it is based on what I was watching and how I see things. And I'm sure my perspective is skewed from the view of someone who takes safe weapon handling more seriously than Hollywood types.
First I'll say I'd entirely grant the statement that she didn't want to kill him. However that is different from trying to kill him. You can try to kill someone without wanting to do so, if you're say forced to fight one another, or lack control of your faculties, and usually basic self defense is reluctant as you have no other options. We've seen this sort of thing in Star Trek before (Amok Time.)
So from my perspective her intent is mostly irrelevant. I mean she may not have intended or wanted to slice his leg open, but she did. She swung the batleth around and he was forced to actively dodge it until she finally made contact. Her actions actively put him in bodily danger. Her actions injured him. Whatever her intent, she acted to hurt him and was entirely likely to have killed him if he didn't dodge as well as he did. She was using the batleth exactly as it was designed to be used, and focused against a single target, Boimler, as opposed to randomly attacking walls and other objects nor was she swinging the batleth in his direction, but just out of reach.
So I think its more than fair to say she was trying to kill him. Did she really want to? Well probably not, but in her drunken haze she lost her ability to not go through the motions. Only once she actually sliced him open did she snap out of her drunken rampage and stop from going further. A different swing or a less competent dodge and he could be dead.
So trying to kill him is the answer to all that, in my opinion.
For another take on it though, as the show goes on we learn she seems to have the answer to everything and doesn't make mistakes. So, drawing on that, we can retroactively realize that she was definitely doing it on purpose, because she's right, she has experience, and everyone else is wrong. With that we can probably argue she wasn't trying to kill him, because if she was, he would actually be dead, as she knew exactly how well he could dodge. I'm not going to subscribe to that logic, though, for reasons that should be obvious.
Okie dokie. We'll just have to agree to disagree then. No problem
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Something like that probably would not have made it to the captain's attention unless there was something obviously off about it (and Boimler seems to be enough of a fumble-fingered goof that he is probably a frequent patient), especially if the captain did not order the crotchety old cat to report anything and everything involving Mariner no matter how innocuous (she seemed rather cagey with who she brought into the watch-Mariner circle).
Kirk was supposed to be the loose canon type from the start, if he had not gone into Starfleet he would probably have ended up a grifter like Mudd. And people like that, while often trouble in a peacetime service often become very effective in more dangerous times and places (like the wild frontier) where out of the box thinking can save lives and salvage the situation up to and including preventing war.
The almost bucolic state that the TNG Starfleet was in after the long period of relative peace would not have tolerated Kirk's antics of course, but that was much later and a completely different political and operational environment. Remember, when Kirk was captain of the Enterprise the subspace relay net was very sparse out on the frontier and captains were accorded more leeway to act on their own since micromanaging is not very practical when messages can take hours or even a few days to make the round trip to HQ and back. Don't think in modern naval terms, TOS was based mainly on Victorian sailing ship days.
The civilian you mention is Mudd left with the Stella androids I take it?
Back in sailing ship times stranding was not used lightly, but it was done in extreme cases, and Mudd happened to be the 23rd century equivalent of that. In his bio that was on a screen in "Mudd's Women" it is mentioned that he has a partial immunity to the conditioning they use in the correctional centers. While that neatly explains why the older Mudd is a bit milder than the DSC version while still a slippery grifter, it also meant that he would have likely ended up in a long term holding facility for untreatable cases, like the one Garth was in, had Kirk followed procedure and formally brought charges.
Kirk actually did him a favor since the androids would not have actually harmed him (and quite possibly had orders to let him go after a certain period of time though they did not go into that in the show), and he was likely to escape the androids in any case (they would not have have been able to hold Kirk for long for instance). There is the possibility that the Stella treatment could break the previous conditioning and the insane melomaniac Mudd reemerge but that is a different story, and it is not like they presented Kirk as never making any mistakes.
As for Picard and Wesely, for some odd reason the writers chose to resurrect the 19th century version of the Midshipman practice. Back in those days the average age for an apprentice officer to start was eleven or twelve, Wesely was actually rather old in comparison. As a midshipman he was expected to do a lot of the things an actual junior officer would do though he would not have a commission himself until later, which is exactly what happened in the show. It was realistic, just not today's practice.
If the Academy was an elite officer training center then yes, the incident Wesley was in would have gotten the whole bunch booted out without question. But it isn't one, it is the regular service training path (or at least it is as far as the basic program is concerned, they may be more discriminatory when they return for the equivalent of OCS that grants them access to ranks above the lower half of lieutenant) and the judgement was that as the senior cadet and chief instigator Locarno was solely responsible for the ill-fated maneuver so the rest were eligible for graduation albeit with serious black marks on their records that would haunt their careers from then on.
As for Troi, they had full Betazoids with fully functional telepathy in Starfleet, her empathy and occasional telepathic flash was nowhere near as much of a "security breach" as they could potentially be. And in the kind of missions they did her abilities were somewhat useful, though they would have been much more so if the writers didn't mostly ignore her as simply eye-candy fanservice. It is one of those things TNG did not know how to write properly for.
Sisko had unrealistic parts, but the black-ops thing was chillingly realistic. Things like that are not common by any stretch, but massaging a situation, even to that extreme degree, to recruit allies is not exactly unknown either. If he had blown it he would have been toast, but since it worked his superiors turned a blind eye to the details (especially if Section 31 caught wind of it).
Riker and his promotion avoidance would be a problem with the modern navy, but again the 19th century navy with its undercurrent of charisma cliques was another matter and the behavior would have been ignored (though eventually the promotion offers would have dried up because they would have assumed he would refuse again), and Star Trek has one foot in each so it is not that big of a deal.
In fact, the idea that the future is just like today but with more compact and powerful tech is a big problem with DSC and much of the other sci-fi TV and movies coming out in the last few years. Viewers today tend to judge everything by the neat eye-candy effects and give little thought to what it is supposed to represent. That is why a lot of people think DSC technology is so far ahead of TOS tech because DSC looks more like cutting edge 2017 instead of looking (and listening) to what the fictional-tech can do rather than whether it was done with modern electronics and CGI or old physical models and travelling mat film compositors.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I find the Prime Directive only works on paper.
It was ok in TOS, but by TNG, it became like elite dogma or something...as in never, EVER question the Prime Directive, B*tch!
Like the Voth and their Doctrine. There were times, such as "Home Ward", for example, where, had I been on the Enterprise, I would have resigned and threw my badge and pips into Picard's face.
If Doctor Who existed in the Trek verse, like those cross over comics....I could see Starfleet's equivalent of a wanted poster, with "Federation Public Enemy#1" with Tom Baker's picture on it.
https://skepticink.com/incredulous/2012/11/04/the-prime-directive-star-treks-doctrine-of-moral-laziness/
Best line from this: In the future, there is no hunger, war, or poverty. Unless you’re not a member of the Federation’s Country Club, then %$#2 you. %$#@ off and die.
Anyhow....
Mariner, with her hands on experience, probably healed Boimler herself. Heck, she knew some of the local leaves on 'Little Qo'Nos' work as pain killers.
I bet Mariner did something....involving breaking regulations, but saved a lot of folks in the process, but get demoted anyhow.
Happened to Kirk.....hell, Starfleet 'rewarded' him with the Enterprise-A, which was essentially held together with chewing gum and duct tape. The Certitos is not too different.
Yes, we have different perspectives. The horror.
I'm hoping that Mariner actually grows and changes over the season (not that I'll see it happen.) They seem to be pushing her Mary Sue status pretty hard in the first and second episode (based on what I've heard about it at least,) so maybe they are setting her up for a fall later that moderates her character, and they could use the batleth incident to remind her she isn't perfect.
Beat me to it.
Least she saved Boimler's butt a few times.
To me, Burnham feels more like a Mary Sue....she had all these skills, corrected everyone, everyone said how great and amazing she is, felt like the entire cosmos revolved around here, and is like some sort of 'chosen one'.
For the record, there is no one "official" definition of that term. Yes, I know it's history. But again, there is no one "official" definition. For reference, google says:
So google's definition does NOT require everyone to like them and it does NOT require them to have NO flaws or weaknesses, only for them to be so few or minor that it seems unrealistic.
But for the sake of argument, let's just say that term doesn't apply to Mariner. In that case, it sounds like we actually need a new term to describe her:
1: she is good at "almost" everything
2: she seems to know "almost" everything.
3: she brags about being the best.
What term would you recommend?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
She's a Rick Sanchez.
So your take on Mariner is she's an entertaining abusive jerk? Not sure I agree completely, but definitely an interesting take!
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Ya pretty much lol
She's more like a drop of Rick, maybe even a starting point before her character grows in other directions. But she has a level of mastery of the universe outside of the ship, but is somewhat in handcuffs inside of it.
Heck, the captain made no mention of Boimler and Mariner in regards to the pink slime that saved the day, saying it was the efforts of her senior staff that did it.
That would leave a bit of a nasty flavor in one's mouth. Reminds of me the episode of Roughnecks: The Starship Troopers Chronicles, where the Roughnecks had a mission to capture a baby fire bug, saved the day, and the douchebag officer in charge got all the credit, and a medal, whilst the Roughnecks just got 2 hours of sleep and a new assignment.
And, "Congratulations, you look like a #$%@ scratching post."
I enjoyed it a lot. I'm glad Ransom was the one to fight the big dude (and win, at that) and I'm glad the statue at the end of the show was none of the main characters from recent Trek shows
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
It felt a bit like a nod to the O'Brien at Work comics "we're aware of you, we even find you funny, but O'Brien is actually awesome and important and people love him!". But maybe that's just me projecting my own feelings.
The Kirk-Two-Fist punch thing wasn't the only nod to "traditional" Trek... The whole idea that Starfleet officers can go toe to toe with powerful enemies is pretty much a staple.. How many Klingons and Jem'Hadar did Sisko, Dax and even Kira (not even Starfleet, technically) beat! Starfleet combat training must really be way above the average.
Pity he's a douche bag and put Mariner in the brig for rolled up sleeves.
The fight scene checked so many boxes. Shirt rip, double fist punch, negotiation through ritual combat - a shame they didn't use the TOS fighting theme. And Kirks missile dropkick was missing, but that was later performed by the doctor.
Ransom is awesome, probably because as a hybrid of bearded Riker and Kirk he can check most Trek tropes.
And you can insult Klingons with insane bass. Who knew ;D
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Yeah, so that comment has nothing to do with my post.
But since you raised the issue, it was actually kind of nice to have someone treat Mariner the way she treats Boimler. Not the "throwing in the brig" part(only because she doesn't have the authority), but simply the "I'm better than everyone else" attitude she definitely shares with Ransom. Maybe it will give her something to think about (but probably not).
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I think he said sentient tar, referring to when Tasha Yar got killed by that living sludge guy.
> (Quote)
>
> I think he said sentient tar, referring to when Tasha Yar got killed by that living sludge guy.
That would be pretty racist, though, as the 'sludge guy' is a Sheliak and their people even hold (very cold) diplomatic relations with the federation. However it might be possible. But I still like to believe
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#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
> uh...armus is not a sheliak - he is not even REMOTELY close to a sheliak​​
Oh my bad. Yes Armus is not a Sheliak, but 'not even remotely' is a bit of a stretch. They both are 'sludge people' and had the same voice actor
But yes, busted. I guess I am the non-carbon racist here, mea culpa.
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