'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The Vulcan hello is just bad writing. But even then it is not an example of the Federation shooting first and not bothering to ask questions, it was a pragmatic, coldly logical Vulcan High Command policy for dealing specifically with Klingons, not Federation policy.
The Vulcan hello is just bad writing. But even then it is not an example of the Federation shooting first and not bothering to ask questions, it was a pragmatic, coldly logical Vulcan High Command policy for dealing specifically with Klingons, not Federation policy.
One person's bad writing is another's good writing.
Where there is a Will, there is a Way.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,600Community Moderator
The "Vulcan Hello" was basically a show of force towards an aggressive warrior culture. Could Starfleet have avoided the Fed-Klingon War if they used the Vulcan Hello? Probably not as T'Kuvma was out to START a war no matter what. But it might have made the Great Houses think a bit more before backing T'Kuvma if they had seen a show of force rather than an attempt at peaceful settlement, which played right into T'Kuvma's hands.
It kinda reminds me of a more aggressive version of the traditional Minbari greeting from Babylon 5, where they approach with their "gun ports open" as a show of respect. However one species show of respect is another species threat. And unfortunately the show of respect was misinterpreted by a somewhat paranoid Earth Alliance Captain, and he opened fire without checking to see if they were actually being targeted. he just went full paranoid, assumed they were waiting in ambush, and lashed out. And thus... the Earth-Minbari War started. over a misunderstanding of culture.
The "Vulcan Hello" was basically a show of force towards an aggressive warrior culture. Could Starfleet have avoided the Fed-Klingon War if they used the Vulcan Hello? Probably not as T'Kuvma was out to START a war no matter what. But it might have made the Great Houses think a bit more before backing T'Kuvma if they had seen a show of force rather than an attempt at peaceful settlement, which played right into T'Kuvma's hands.
It kinda reminds me of a more aggressive version of the traditional Minbari greeting from Babylon 5, where they approach with their "gun ports open" as a show of respect. However one species show of respect is another species threat. And unfortunately the show of respect was misinterpreted by a somewhat paranoid Earth Alliance Captain, and he opened fire without checking to see if they were actually being targeted. he just went full paranoid, assumed they were waiting in ambush, and lashed out. And thus... the Earth-Minbari War started. over a misunderstanding of culture.
Though in the B5 example it wasn't so much that the captain didn't check if they were targeted as the captain couldn't due something in the Minbari systems TRIBBLE up EA sensors.
And yeah the "Vulcan Hello" does in fact make perfect sense when dealing with a culture like the klingons, after all "to win a battle but loose an empire is no victory" the whole idea with this tactic is to show the klingons that you're strong and deterimined enough that fighting you would ultimately be lethally detrimental to the Klingons.
Though in the B5 example it wasn't so much that the captain didn't check if they were targeted as the captain couldn't due something in the Minbari systems TRIBBLE up EA sensors.
I don't think the Gray Council's War Cruiser was actively doing that though. It was a common thing during the war, but it seems to be an ability they can turn on and off at will. Around the time Sheridan took command of B5, they had a run in with a rogue War Cruiser and could see them just fine on the station's sensors, which were apparently the same model as those used during the war. Which means the Minbari WANTED to be seen. So again it falls on the Captain of Prometheus acting in paranoia during a First Contact. While the fault isn't purely on the humans, as the Minbari Warrior Caste made the mistake of not realizing humans may not recognize the gesture as a show of respect, it was still a clusterfrak.
The "Vulcan Hello" was basically a show of force towards an aggressive warrior culture. Could Starfleet have avoided the Fed-Klingon War if they used the Vulcan Hello? Probably not as T'Kuvma was out to START a war no matter what. But it might have made the Great Houses think a bit more before backing T'Kuvma if they had seen a show of force rather than an attempt at peaceful settlement, which played right into T'Kuvma's hands.
It kinda reminds me of a more aggressive version of the traditional Minbari greeting from Babylon 5, where they approach with their "gun ports open" as a show of respect. However one species show of respect is another species threat. And unfortunately the show of respect was misinterpreted by a somewhat paranoid Earth Alliance Captain, and he opened fire without checking to see if they were actually being targeted. he just went full paranoid, assumed they were waiting in ambush, and lashed out. And thus... the Earth-Minbari War started. over a misunderstanding of culture.
Though in the B5 example it wasn't so much that the captain didn't check if they were targeted as the captain couldn't due something in the Minbari systems TRIBBLE up EA sensors.
And yeah the "Vulcan Hello" does in fact make perfect sense when dealing with a culture like the klingons, after all "to win a battle but loose an empire is no victory" the whole idea with this tactic is to show the klingons that you're strong and deterimined enough that fighting you would ultimately be lethally detrimental to the Klingons.
It was such a major plot point it got talked about several times later. The Minbari simply had no idea that their ECM tech was so good the Humans couldn't properly target them. Sheridan was called "Starkiller" because he came up with the brilliant idea of using a non-targeted explosion. Yeah, half the Minbari fleet wanted him dead for that. In a later ep Sheridan deduced that a group of Minbari who were aggressively targeting B5 were feigning the attack and had actually shut off their ECM systems to make it easier for the station to destroy their ships. Yeah... they were attempting to commit suicide and trying to provoke the legendary Starkiller into destroying them. Sheridan was like "You WANT to die? NOPE, not taking the bait".
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,600Community Moderator
Sheridan used remote detonated tactical nukes hidden in an asteroid field. 2/3 killed the Black Star as it came to finish off Lexington. And they say he was dishonorable when the Minbari were out to kill the survivors of a wrecked ship.
But it did spawn one of the best "Come at me bro" moments when Delenn came to the defense of B5.
"Only one Human Captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives... be somewhere else."
The reason for stationing "Starkiller" as the commander of B5 was also an interesting plot point. Earthforce did it because A: he'd seen things most Humans had never imagined, and B: as a power move to remind the Minbari that Earthforce has teeth... even if it's not many.
It's kind alike "Oh the Klingons want to negotiate? Captain Kirk is the best man to ensure the safety of the ambassador."
and also partly because, at the time, there was a rogue minbari cruiser skulking around EA space, and as the only human to have ever destroyed one...he was a prime choice in case that cruiser came near B5 with hostile intentions​​
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Speculation on my part. There is a Memorial Day sale this weekend. With a tease of something more this weekend. As we've had a few Stovokor Saturday teasers, I can't help but wonder if we might get more than a tease for our Klingons this weekend?
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
Though in the B5 example it wasn't so much that the captain didn't check if they were targeted as the captain couldn't due something in the Minbari systems TRIBBLE up EA sensors.
I don't think the Gray Council's War Cruiser was actively doing that though. It was a common thing during the war, but it seems to be an ability they can turn on and off at will. Around the time Sheridan took command of B5, they had a run in with a rogue War Cruiser and could see them just fine on the station's sensors, which were apparently the same model as those used during the war. Which means the Minbari WANTED to be seen. So again it falls on the Captain of Prometheus acting in paranoia during a First Contact. While the fault isn't purely on the humans, as the Minbari Warrior Caste made the mistake of not realizing humans may not recognize the gesture as a show of respect, it was still a clusterfrak.
It's been many years since I last watched B5 (though I used to watch it all the time when I was single...), but iirc....
The Gray Council's war cruiser was using their ECM systems. This is why the EA cruiser was only ever able to get a "silhouette" scan of the thing. What "tribbled" them up, however, was not the ECM but rather when the war cruiser scanned them back. The energy output from the Minbari scanners was enough to interfere with many of the systems on the EA cruiser, most importantly their ability to open a jump point. The captain thought the Minbari were attempting to disable them for capture and this is ultimately why he open fired. When they managed to hit something on the Minbari cruiser that took the scanners offline, they were then able to open a jump point again and this is when he ordered a retreat.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Comments
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The Vulcan hello is just bad writing. But even then it is not an example of the Federation shooting first and not bothering to ask questions, it was a pragmatic, coldly logical Vulcan High Command policy for dealing specifically with Klingons, not Federation policy.
One person's bad writing is another's good writing.
It kinda reminds me of a more aggressive version of the traditional Minbari greeting from Babylon 5, where they approach with their "gun ports open" as a show of respect. However one species show of respect is another species threat. And unfortunately the show of respect was misinterpreted by a somewhat paranoid Earth Alliance Captain, and he opened fire without checking to see if they were actually being targeted. he just went full paranoid, assumed they were waiting in ambush, and lashed out. And thus... the Earth-Minbari War started. over a misunderstanding of culture.
Though in the B5 example it wasn't so much that the captain didn't check if they were targeted as the captain couldn't due something in the Minbari systems TRIBBLE up EA sensors.
And yeah the "Vulcan Hello" does in fact make perfect sense when dealing with a culture like the klingons, after all "to win a battle but loose an empire is no victory" the whole idea with this tactic is to show the klingons that you're strong and deterimined enough that fighting you would ultimately be lethally detrimental to the Klingons.
of course they can.. that fat one from Nimbus 3 was as big around as he was tall.. easy to roll him around....
I don't think the Gray Council's War Cruiser was actively doing that though. It was a common thing during the war, but it seems to be an ability they can turn on and off at will. Around the time Sheridan took command of B5, they had a run in with a rogue War Cruiser and could see them just fine on the station's sensors, which were apparently the same model as those used during the war. Which means the Minbari WANTED to be seen. So again it falls on the Captain of Prometheus acting in paranoia during a First Contact. While the fault isn't purely on the humans, as the Minbari Warrior Caste made the mistake of not realizing humans may not recognize the gesture as a show of respect, it was still a clusterfrak.
My character Tsin'xing
But it did spawn one of the best "Come at me bro" moments when Delenn came to the defense of B5.
"Only one Human Captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives... be somewhere else."
It's kind alike "Oh the Klingons want to negotiate? Captain Kirk is the best man to ensure the safety of the ambassador."
My character Tsin'xing
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Well Rura Penthe is a Klingon prison colony. It is supposed to be ewww! It is a prison for crying out loud!
It's been many years since I last watched B5 (though I used to watch it all the time when I was single...), but iirc....
The Gray Council's war cruiser was using their ECM systems. This is why the EA cruiser was only ever able to get a "silhouette" scan of the thing. What "tribbled" them up, however, was not the ECM but rather when the war cruiser scanned them back. The energy output from the Minbari scanners was enough to interfere with many of the systems on the EA cruiser, most importantly their ability to open a jump point. The captain thought the Minbari were attempting to disable them for capture and this is ultimately why he open fired. When they managed to hit something on the Minbari cruiser that took the scanners offline, they were then able to open a jump point again and this is when he ordered a retreat.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
My character Tsin'xing
I have been behind drivers like that before, its not fun at all.....
I mean these guys:
who fly these things:
My character Tsin'xing
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Those guys are all-caps "THE SHADOWS" so they are probably meaner than the B5 ones who only have the first letter capitalized