the cryptic staff have supposedly seen up to 3, though
How? Season 2 has not even begun filming yet. They maybe have some notes which between now and when/if a third season is greenlit can change quite a lot.
Well, has been 10 years, so, fires should be put out, a starbase constructed and the orbital shipyards repaired, while colonization start again, having a shipyard close to home is a tactical advantage, and that would explain why we have so many old ships around, and the time it takes for new designs to be ready. Also, about the lore, every single ship constructed so far has been in an orbital facility.. Wettu and others rings a bell?, it's a small modification, but dont remember ever mentioned that they where in the surface of Mars (ingame lore)
Part of the reason I love Star Trek is it's fairly easy to fill in the blanks as far as plot holes, story inconsistencies and other gaps.
Heavy Spoiler Alert for Picard Episode 1:
1) Mars Burning. Planets are huge. You would not believe just how huge planets are. That's a lot of oxygen... and greenhouse gasses! Mars is being terraformed - without access to the Genesis Device or other handwavum technology that would take a long long time to do. We had glimpses of various processes in TNG at various stages and in other shows (I think? Not sure!)
Mars is cold and it's atmosphere is thin. One of the first steps to getting Mars Earth-like would be to jigger the atmosphere. Reserves of water and ice would have to be found, and cracked into oxygen. Other gasses would have to be added. In order to make the planet warm enough for our kind of life you'd need to either provide artificial heat, OR add greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere. Methane is one of the most potent greenhouse gasses there is, and sources of methane such as concentrated meat animal farming have a huge greenhouse footprint currently.
So a Mars with a concentrated oxygen atmosphere with an inordinate amount of methane in the upper atmosphere to trap heat is a ticking bomb. And given the scale and scope of such a project I could see Mars continuing to "burn" for quite a while depending on how the atmosphere was composed and the method used to extract and mix said gasses.
Depending on how they take this in-game, here's a story-telling hook where the Lukari and their handwavum protomatter restoration matrix could be a plot point -- we just met them in-game so if Mars is still damaged in-game here's a jumping off point for a story or story-arc. This is one of those times I wish The Foundry was still active.
2) Shipyards: As far back as a 1990s era novel we had the saucer for the Enterprise Refit on the ground being reconstructed then relaunched. It was parodied in Star Wrek In The Prikining with an actual launch scene of a Sovereign class ship built in Finland. There was a DS9 novel in which an Ambassador class ship was built on the ground at Bajor. And we saw a Galaxy Class being built on the ground in TNG. We've seen snatches of ships being built in orbit in TNG, in Voyager and elsewhere. We've seen the Enterprise in an open dock and just assumed she was built there...
Given the technology of the era, getting a large mass from the ground to orbit is dead simple. Plus there are a lot of reasons why construction on the ground makes sense with additional work being done in orbit. Here's how I envision some contractors building starships
General Dynamics Spaceframe And Hull Systems does major fabrication work here in Lincoln, Nebraska then launches the frames into space where their Bath Orbital Yard integrates the sections and the partly finished frame is then transferred to Starfleet's custody, they take over the system integration and final assembly.
It would largely depend on the ship being built, the companies building it and Starfleet's contract specifications. Maybe one ship of a class is built on the ground in Iowa, with another being built entirely in orbit above Mars while a third is assembled in orbit above San Fran out of components from both orbital factories and ground factories.
Thing to remember -- it has never been stated in canon at any point that all ships period are built in orbit. That was a FAN ASSUMPTION and the studio has now put out examples of shipyards in orbit and shipyards on the ground. So why get "upset" over one or the other when we see it is done both ways?
3) Synths: I'm not sure where they are going with this because we've seen a ton of artificial life-forms in Star Trek over the years. Then again given what happened with Control and M5 and later Lore I could see the Federation finally saying "No more synths because this 'kill all humans' TRIBBLE is getting old." But then again -- that's not very ideal or Utopian and kind of goes against what I personally believe Star Trek is. We'll see how it shakes out I'm interested to see the angle they take. HOPEFULLY it's a plot point that can be integrated into STO because my main has two "synth" members who have been with her since the beginning. Perhaps Picard is a redemption story bringing peace between artificial and natural life and closing down that eternal sci-fi conflict as only Star Trek can.
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regarding the synths being banned not being "very like the Utopian UFP" I'm going to note this isn't the first time the UFP has restricted or outright banned a technology that could have promising uses in the future due to a bad experiance. consider genetic engineering
The UFP in general didn't even consider artificial life forms to be more than tools as recently as Voyager. Remember that Data was only recognized as being a sapient life form some odd 30 years before Picard.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
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really artifical life forms when you think of it where an obvious ethical dilemia for the federation to deal with, the idea that the status quo from the next gen era would continue is silly. eventually as the tech advanced and more and more self-aware AI became a thing, the federation would have to deal with the fact that they where creating a slave race. I mean from a morality POV simply refusing to build them anymore proably was the SIMPLIEST and EASIEST solution
The reference to the 'Romulan Free State' in episode 2 at least means there needs to be a progression from Old Empire->Free State->Empire (under Sela) right? And then the splintered Romulan Republic.
The way it sounds from the show, that the ships were built on the ground * references from the Kelvin Timeline* and then finish in space. *although never mentioned in full to how the ships were built period*
Mars was the perfect place for a shipyard because of the low gravity. The major parts of the spaceframe for vessels, in Federation ships usually being saucer, engineering section and nacelle's were built and assembled on the surface of Mars.
Once completed, they were lifted into the orbital facilities in order to be fully assembled into a starship, according to the tech manuals from TNG era. You can also kinda see a glimpse of this in one of the TNG episodes.
Once the ship was whole so to speak, it would usually be moved into a closed drydock for interior construction.
Here you see the saucer, engineering section and nacelle's of a Galaxy Class starship being constructed on the surface of Mars.
That's cool...never saw the manuals, thanks for that.
As someone whose worked in a ship yard before BTW this isn't without precident in real life eaither, the basic hull of the ship is build on land before the ship is launched and completed.
Romulan free state could just be a prototypical name for the republic. *shrugs*
I'd say it's more like the overall name for the romulan factions of which the RSE remnant ruled by Sela and the Romulan Republic are splinter parts, after all most romulans in STO are neutral in the RSE/RR conflict, so it's possible that between Picard and STO the free state splinters into the reconstituted RSE and several minor factions of which the (future) Romulan Republic was the most successful one.
As someone whose worked in a ship yard before BTW this isn't without precident in real life eaither, the basic hull of the ship is build on land before the ship is launched and completed.
Yeah but the issue is getting something from ground to space takes a massive amount of energy versus flooding a lock or pushing a ship down a ramp into the water. You don't build on a planet if you don't have to, because that is a ton of fuel to get it off the surface again that you don't need if you can build it in space. If we were to start mining asteroids to make space ships, we would not be bringing them onto Earth for assembly. They would be built on site, or at worst moved into orbit of some planet where some construction facility would be because getting it back off the ground again is by far the worst thing to try and do.
Of course this is Star Trek and that issue of delta V is irrelevant, however, I'm not sure why they would build on a planet. You don't have to worry about support structures holding up the weight and possible collapses if you're building in space. You don't have to worry about atmospheric issues from reactive gasses or other things. You don't need to worry about large object curvatures due to gravity. You'd have to worry about radiation, but shields are a thing in ST too.
Sorry, ST:P is flat-out incompatible with STO, and that was inevitable once the company started redeveloping the TOS universe. In particular Alex Kurtzman has made it perfectly clear he doesn't want to deal with actual series canon, or for that matter the constraints of time, space, logic, etc. There was no way he was going to take notes from a video game.
Aside from the state of Mars and the "synth rebellion", you've got B4 failing to develop into Data and retconning the Hobus supernova into the Romulan star itself going boom.
As long as the TOS universe was being left fallow in favor of the "Kelvin timeline" we could at least pretend STO was the One True Continuation, but that was just a fragile fantasy. It's "alternate continuity" now.
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Sorry, ST:P is flat-out incompatible with STO, and that was inevitable once the company started redeveloping the TOS universe. In particular Alex Kurtzman has made it perfectly clear he doesn't want to deal with actual series canon, or for that matter the constraints of time, space, logic, etc. There was no way he was going to take notes from a video game.
Aside from the state of Mars and the "synth rebellion", you've got B4 failing to develop into Data and retconning the Hobus supernova into the Romulan star itself going boom.
As long as the TOS universe was being left fallow in favor of the "Kelvin timeline" we could at least pretend STO was the One True Continuation, but that was just a fragile fantasy. It's "alternate continuity" now.
B4 not being developed into a reborn Data was a condition that Brent Spiner had for coming back to play Data. He said that as long as they didn't have Data as a functioning entity again, he'd be willing to play him. So, they obviously came up with the synth attack storyline as an excuse to not have Data physically alive again.
As for the Romulan star, I kinda feel they wanted to bring it more to something that hasn't been done yet.
I suspect the synth attack, this new romulan faction and the "Data Daughters" are all going to be connected. I think honestly the AI plotline is one trek needs to have, after TNG and voyager AI is kinda a big thing in trek, and they're going to need to tackle it's place in the franchise's future.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
Hobus wasn't retconned. It IS a Star in Romulan space. They just didn't identify it as Hobus specifically. So calling it a "Romulan" Star can still describe Hobus and not just the Romulus System, or whatever the Romulan home system is called. I mean they never identified Hobus in the Kelvin Timeline either. It all came from secondary sources and not actual on screen dialog.
Kinda like saying "The President" when talking about an event in history. It doesn't specifically mean the CURRENT President.
Its vague. Not a retcon. Could be ANY star in Romulan space. Also that reporter was rather biased against Romulans so probably didn't even care which star it was and just did a generic description. Kind of a "They're all the same to me" kind of thing.
I imagine they said "The romulan star" for two reasons, on an OOC level it introduces the concept for people who aren't familer in a nice easy way to handle it "a romulan star went super nova" on an in character level, it's pretty insidious and smart why it was done. the reporter obviously was hostile to the romulans, by refering to it as "the romulan star" it subtly suggests she saw it as "the Romulans PROBLEM"
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
I imagine they said "The romulan star" for two reasons, on an OOC level it introduces the concept for people who aren't familer in a nice easy way to handle it "a romulan star went super nova" on an in character level, it's pretty insidious and smart why it was done. the reporter obviously was hostile to the romulans, by refering to it as "the romulan star" it subtly suggests she saw it as "the Romulans PROBLEM"
Yea... that's how I see it, especially considering how she kept trying to basically seperate Romulans from everyone else and Picard had to reiterate that lives were at stake. Didn't matter if they were Romulan or not.
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Video games have never been considered canon to the franchises they were created in. Why start now? Because we get voice cameos?
The issue isn't considering STO canon, but whether to force it to comply with the "canon" STP gives us.
Personally if the new show wasn't playing really fast and loose with canon as it was, completely ignoring established things and making things up they don't need to when canon offers a perfectly fine answer, as well as not even trying to stay in the realm of science fiction, it might be a more interesting question.
Who says the Federation didn't find a way to stop the Mars fires and rebuild Utopia Planitia in the 10 years between Picard and STO?
Because it's established that the crust of the planet is physically destroyed, Mars is only a small fireball from 2380 to the 2400's. Nothing to build on, it's totally destroyed.
That was NEVER stated anywhere in the STP episode; all that was said was the flamable gases in Mars' terraformed atmosphere were ignited; and parts of Mars are still burning to this day (the day of that interview in 2399). Again STO started 10 years later - and obviously in the 25 years since the attack in 2385 - the Federation found a way to maintain Mars as a shipyard.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
Video games have never been considered canon to the franchises they were created in. Why start now? Because we get voice cameos?
Actually I believe the Kelvin Timeline one set between 09 and Into Darkness is considered canon. Hell... Into Darkness and the game reference something about McCoy dealing with a Pregnant Gorn.
Also I believe Aliens: Colonial Marines is considered canon as well, and actually retcons the death of Hicks and acts as a DIRECT sequel to Aliens.
The idea of flammable gases in the atmosphere burning for 10 years has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of reality. Flammable gas pre-mixed with oxygen burns explosively, so there would be a big giant "whoosh" and then it would be over. To continue burning, there would need to be a continual source of both fuel and oxygen.
Nevermind it would be impossible for a planetary atmosphere to be flammable in the first place, since it would be instantly ignited by the first little meteor or whatever that flew into it.
But then we already had the Hobus magic FTL supernova and Cryptic came up with an explanation for that, so...iconians?
There would need to be a continuous source of O2 in the Martian atmosphere in the first place, to maintain a breathable shirtsleeves environment for humans. Martian surface gravity is 1/3g, one of the two main reasons Mars no longer has water or enough of an atmosphere to be terribly useful (Curiosity was slowed somewhat with parachutes, but the landing had to be accomplished with a disposable retrorocket because there wasn't enough air to slow the craft to a safe landing). Without a constant influx of breathing-gases, plus (as pointed out above) some nice greenhouse gases in the upper atmosphere to help hold in the heat, Mars remains what it is today - a useless dustball on the fringes of the asteroid belt.
Thus, a fire in the atmosphere would indeed sweep the planet quickly, and the atmosphere plants would be hot pockets for some time to come; given replicator technology, ten years doesn't seem terribly unlikely at all.
And as we saw in the second episode, the androids on Mars were h.acked - it wasn't an uprising, it was a reprogramming. The one we saw shot everyone in that control room, then shot itself right through the processor matrix, erasing its own memory so that even if its frame were recovered, it would have no useful data remaining. Unfortunately, as we learned in TNG:"Contagion", the Federation as a whole and Starfleet in particular has forgotten everything it ever knew about cybernetic security systems - Geordi had to reinvent "reboot the system from protected backups" from scratch! So it would have been pathetically easy for this highly-advanced Romulan agency to hack the androids and make them appear so treacherous that the Federation would join them in destroying these "abominations".
There has also been at least one TV series/game pair where the game was just as canon as the show: Defiance.
Except the TV series was tied into the MMO from the start for Defiance. So there was no problem of trying to integrate the canon like the almost impossible task of STO and Picard. We would have to wait for STO 2 and a new Star Trek series for Star Trek being able to do that.
Comments
I think he means up to episode 3 not season 3.
Heavy Spoiler Alert for Picard Episode 1:
1) Mars Burning. Planets are huge. You would not believe just how huge planets are. That's a lot of oxygen... and greenhouse gasses! Mars is being terraformed - without access to the Genesis Device or other handwavum technology that would take a long long time to do. We had glimpses of various processes in TNG at various stages and in other shows (I think? Not sure!)
Mars is cold and it's atmosphere is thin. One of the first steps to getting Mars Earth-like would be to jigger the atmosphere. Reserves of water and ice would have to be found, and cracked into oxygen. Other gasses would have to be added. In order to make the planet warm enough for our kind of life you'd need to either provide artificial heat, OR add greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere. Methane is one of the most potent greenhouse gasses there is, and sources of methane such as concentrated meat animal farming have a huge greenhouse footprint currently.
So a Mars with a concentrated oxygen atmosphere with an inordinate amount of methane in the upper atmosphere to trap heat is a ticking bomb. And given the scale and scope of such a project I could see Mars continuing to "burn" for quite a while depending on how the atmosphere was composed and the method used to extract and mix said gasses.
Depending on how they take this in-game, here's a story-telling hook where the Lukari and their handwavum protomatter restoration matrix could be a plot point -- we just met them in-game so if Mars is still damaged in-game here's a jumping off point for a story or story-arc. This is one of those times I wish The Foundry was still active.
2) Shipyards: As far back as a 1990s era novel we had the saucer for the Enterprise Refit on the ground being reconstructed then relaunched. It was parodied in Star Wrek In The Prikining with an actual launch scene of a Sovereign class ship built in Finland. There was a DS9 novel in which an Ambassador class ship was built on the ground at Bajor. And we saw a Galaxy Class being built on the ground in TNG. We've seen snatches of ships being built in orbit in TNG, in Voyager and elsewhere. We've seen the Enterprise in an open dock and just assumed she was built there...
Given the technology of the era, getting a large mass from the ground to orbit is dead simple. Plus there are a lot of reasons why construction on the ground makes sense with additional work being done in orbit. Here's how I envision some contractors building starships
General Dynamics Spaceframe And Hull Systems does major fabrication work here in Lincoln, Nebraska then launches the frames into space where their Bath Orbital Yard integrates the sections and the partly finished frame is then transferred to Starfleet's custody, they take over the system integration and final assembly.
It would largely depend on the ship being built, the companies building it and Starfleet's contract specifications. Maybe one ship of a class is built on the ground in Iowa, with another being built entirely in orbit above Mars while a third is assembled in orbit above San Fran out of components from both orbital factories and ground factories.
Thing to remember -- it has never been stated in canon at any point that all ships period are built in orbit. That was a FAN ASSUMPTION and the studio has now put out examples of shipyards in orbit and shipyards on the ground. So why get "upset" over one or the other when we see it is done both ways?
3) Synths: I'm not sure where they are going with this because we've seen a ton of artificial life-forms in Star Trek over the years. Then again given what happened with Control and M5 and later Lore I could see the Federation finally saying "No more synths because this 'kill all humans' TRIBBLE is getting old." But then again -- that's not very ideal or Utopian and kind of goes against what I personally believe Star Trek is. We'll see how it shakes out I'm interested to see the angle they take. HOPEFULLY it's a plot point that can be integrated into STO because my main has two "synth" members who have been with her since the beginning. Perhaps Picard is a redemption story bringing peace between artificial and natural life and closing down that eternal sci-fi conflict as only Star Trek can.
We'll see!
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
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That's cool...never saw the manuals, thanks for that.
Yeah but the issue is getting something from ground to space takes a massive amount of energy versus flooding a lock or pushing a ship down a ramp into the water. You don't build on a planet if you don't have to, because that is a ton of fuel to get it off the surface again that you don't need if you can build it in space. If we were to start mining asteroids to make space ships, we would not be bringing them onto Earth for assembly. They would be built on site, or at worst moved into orbit of some planet where some construction facility would be because getting it back off the ground again is by far the worst thing to try and do.
Of course this is Star Trek and that issue of delta V is irrelevant, however, I'm not sure why they would build on a planet. You don't have to worry about support structures holding up the weight and possible collapses if you're building in space. You don't have to worry about atmospheric issues from reactive gasses or other things. You don't need to worry about large object curvatures due to gravity. You'd have to worry about radiation, but shields are a thing in ST too.
Aside from the state of Mars and the "synth rebellion", you've got B4 failing to develop into Data and retconning the Hobus supernova into the Romulan star itself going boom.
As long as the TOS universe was being left fallow in favor of the "Kelvin timeline" we could at least pretend STO was the One True Continuation, but that was just a fragile fantasy. It's "alternate continuity" now.
B4 not being developed into a reborn Data was a condition that Brent Spiner had for coming back to play Data. He said that as long as they didn't have Data as a functioning entity again, he'd be willing to play him. So, they obviously came up with the synth attack storyline as an excuse to not have Data physically alive again.
As for the Romulan star, I kinda feel they wanted to bring it more to something that hasn't been done yet.
Kinda like saying "The President" when talking about an event in history. It doesn't specifically mean the CURRENT President.
Its vague. Not a retcon. Could be ANY star in Romulan space. Also that reporter was rather biased against Romulans so probably didn't even care which star it was and just did a generic description. Kind of a "They're all the same to me" kind of thing.
Yea... that's how I see it, especially considering how she kept trying to basically seperate Romulans from everyone else and Picard had to reiterate that lives were at stake. Didn't matter if they were Romulan or not.
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
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A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The issue isn't considering STO canon, but whether to force it to comply with the "canon" STP gives us.
Personally if the new show wasn't playing really fast and loose with canon as it was, completely ignoring established things and making things up they don't need to when canon offers a perfectly fine answer, as well as not even trying to stay in the realm of science fiction, it might be a more interesting question.
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Actually I believe the Kelvin Timeline one set between 09 and Into Darkness is considered canon. Hell... Into Darkness and the game reference something about McCoy dealing with a Pregnant Gorn.
Also I believe Aliens: Colonial Marines is considered canon as well, and actually retcons the death of Hicks and acts as a DIRECT sequel to Aliens.
Nevermind it would be impossible for a planetary atmosphere to be flammable in the first place, since it would be instantly ignited by the first little meteor or whatever that flew into it.
But then we already had the Hobus magic FTL supernova and Cryptic came up with an explanation for that, so...iconians?
Thus, a fire in the atmosphere would indeed sweep the planet quickly, and the atmosphere plants would be hot pockets for some time to come; given replicator technology, ten years doesn't seem terribly unlikely at all.
Except the TV series was tied into the MMO from the start for Defiance. So there was no problem of trying to integrate the canon like the almost impossible task of STO and Picard. We would have to wait for STO 2 and a new Star Trek series for Star Trek being able to do that.