A miniscule amount comes from lifers. (and even if it did... they still PAID Cryptic) The majority believe it or not comes from people buying zen to buy Dil with. I know crazy right... every single Zen in the game represents an actual cash purchase.
I believe you grossly underestimate the number of lifetime subscribers this game has. And, the fact that lifers paid for their subscription doesn't change the fact that they get a monthly stipend. The stipend can be used for any purpose and is not the same as a cash purchase. Over ten years - lifers would have received over 60,000 Zen...each...tell me again how that's not enough? Assuming that Zen was part of the LTS from the beginning, which I can't recall if it was...
Just because I disagree with your viewpoint it does not mean I am only interested in arguing or trying to get the last word. I would also point out the only person to quote people out of context is you. Which you did to me multiple times.
The number of ships is not incidental because it shows it’s impossible for zen from lifetimers to cover the costs of more than 1% of keys to get those ships. Which means if you go with your solution the devs would lose their main revenue stream which would most likely kill the game.
99.9% of keys that come from dilithium conversion come from players buying those keys with ZEN and 99% of Zen comes from people spending real cash. Don’t you see how if you remove all those keys from ZEN and players get them via EC you are cutting off massive revenue? Enough revenue to kill the game.
“Over ten years - lifers would have received over 60,000 Zen...each...tell me again how that's not enough? Assuming that Zen was part of the LTS from the beginning, which I can't recall if it was...”
Because the amount of zen needed to cover current ships and key sales is in the many millions per lockbox. When more than a million ZEN is traded per lockbox that 60,000 ZEN over 10 years is a drop in the ocean over the entire range of lockbox’s of what is needed to provide enough keys.
60,000 over 10 years is enough for 2 and a half ships. Now consider when a new lockbox comes out that ship is scrolling across the screen multiple times a second. It’s clear there cannot possibly be enough life time members to remotely come close to covering the keys that are needed.
Another way to look at it is 60,000 ZEN over 10 years only covers enough keys for half a month for 1 person trying to get 2 ships out of box.
The majority of players are not lifers; the majority are free to play. The small group of lifers do not come close to producing enough ZEN to cover the amount of keys needed on a daily basis. Which is why your solution is wrong and would seriously hurt the game.
You have still yet to provide any evidence I asked for. Do you have any evidence? Please don't say go back 10 pages as that was disproven, what you said then has been shown to be incorrect.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
As a player I have bowed out of this debate, which has devolved into a circular argument. As a moderator, I now have the unenviable task of ending it. That's enough.
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From a pure speculation point of view what is the actual issue they are hoping to address here?
Is it the fact that inflation is leading to certain items becoming ever more expensive on the player exchange an they want to reign that in?
My guess is that Borticus mathed the economy using metrics not available to players and concluded that the server-wide player base is producing more EC than they spend. With trading with other players not considered spending since the EC is still on the table just a different place.
Thus Bort is looking to find ways to remove EC from the table without kicking the table over.
ENERGY Credits. Why have we never used them as their name implies? We should be using them to make our ships fly through space, or to power our weapons, or anything else that is similar to fossil fuel consumption. How about 1 EC = 1 Light Year of Travel? If we did something like this, it wouldn't be long until you would have to decide between converting drops into EC or into Salvage.
Or we could use EC to buy Salvage Points at a hefty cost like 1000 EC to 1 Salvage Point. This would consume the EC just as well as using it as gasoline.
Or we could use EC to buy Salvage Points at a hefty cost like 1000 EC to 1 Salvage Point. This would consume the EC just as well as using it as gasoline.
We pay less then 100 EC per 1 salvage point now... buy some mk 10-12 purple junk off the exchange and salvage it.
That would have only worked as a sink if salvage wasn't already a thing. If they had released it in a way that the only way to get it would be to trade EC for it... that could have been a decent sink. Of course now the masses of already re rolled their best gear and the system is already in place. Would have worked well though if they had decided they wanted an ec sink sooner.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
We should be using them to make our ships fly through space, or to power our weapons, or anything else that is similar to fossil fuel consumption. How about 1 EC = 1 Light Year of Travel? If we did something like this, it wouldn't be long until you would have to decide between converting drops into EC or into Salvage.
How about NO. Because you forget that brand new characters, moreso brand new players, have 0 ECs. That means they can't even play the game and get anything to sell for ECs to fuel their ship. They are literally STRANDED and cannot play the game.
Besides... technically speaking that is already how vendors work. Instead of handing over a Credit Chit like a credit card, we're basically converting a set amount of energy into the item we are buying. Kinda like a replicator. After all... how many vendors actually look like they have a full on store with items on display? Not very many. Some just have a counter, like the ship item vendor on ESD. So you can just headcanon that they're making the items for you in a replicator, or they are requisitioning the items from another location.
As a F2P, other than surfing the exchange for good deals, I use EC almost exclusively for one thing, purchasing contraband to turn in for dilithium. Would it make sense to have a similar idea to turn EC directly to dilithium? Perhaps have a a bauble/trinket or thingy sold for EC by a vendor and account bound, turn in said item(s) for dilithium, and/or have the trinket/bauble as a requirement for some/all DOFF missions, something similar and in addition to contraband turn-in DOFF mission. Keep it time gated, and if a player wants to generate dilithium quicker then they pay more EC. Keep the daily 8K dilithium refinement in place and see how it goes.
Phoenix upgrades are the only thing anyone needs from the boxes and they are the most valuable item in the boxes.
This certainly holds true for me. Since they were introduced I think I have probably opened maybe 500 phoenix boxes or there about. As an old timer I already had everything in it. Every box was opened for the tech upgrades. I feel bad for the people opening these for the old event ships, those ultra rare and epic ship tokens are no more common then lockbox ships.
I spent millions of dil getting a Bulwark the first time the phoenix box ran (the only thing in the phoenix I didn't already have and I couldn't get anywhere else). Since then I've only picked the freebies...if I can remember to do even that.
The key is not putting up alternate ways to get stuff people already have anyway, but creating new things.
They can put up pretty much anything that's unique and people will get it, as long as it's good enough to matter. Repeatability can come from a lockbox/phoenix box-like random chance and/or from simply needing many copies to fully level up whatever it is, but uniqeueness is the key. Because if it's anything that's already available elsewhere, there's always the math of "is it easier to get somewhere else" that caps out the potential value.
Since nobody can ever stay relevant in game with a static unchanging build Phoenix Upgrades will never lose value. They are simply the best upgrades bar the ultimates from keyrings. As many tech points as 4 superiors with a lower dill cost per unit to acquire than 4 superiors cost to apply. Anyone not using phoenix upgrades is wasting resources.
All very true, Phoenix Kits will always be in demand.. every time we have an event, I stock up on as many as I can get.
I'd say all player builds are made irrelevant by the content being timed to auto-win, no player action required.
You're right.
Those of us that always re-build according to new changes, additions, or subtractions.. do so because for us it pretty much is the entire end game. No one has to change everything up when their 300k build gets knocked down to a 275k build because of a change.. we do it because it gives us something at end game to do, something to shoot for.
Occasionally, you get things like the S13 super nerfs where I pretty much rebuilt every ship in my fleet.. but luckily those are rare. With things being added all the time and small tweaks always going in, it keeps the Phoenix Kits highly relevant even for long time players that otherwise have everything.
Honestly, as a method to control the Dilithium Market.. the Phoenix Boxes were a flash of brilliance.
Insert witty signature line here.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
Honestly, as a method to control the Dilithium Market.. the Phoenix Boxes were a flash of brilliance.
They are a good way to balance the DL Economy. Its just that occasionally the timing gets countered and we see very little movement because some new shiny came out around the same time. When there's nothing to counter it, the DL Exchange actually does go gown. But when you happen to release a new ship bundle around the same time... that gets negated.
I'd say all player builds are made irrelevant by the content being timed to auto-win, no player action required.
You're right.
Those of us that always re-build according to new changes, additions, or subtractions.. do so because for us it pretty much is the entire end game. No one has to change everything up when their 300k build gets knocked down to a 275k build because of a change.. we do it because it gives us something at end game to do, something to shoot for.
Occasionally, you get things like the S13 super nerfs where I pretty much rebuilt every ship in my fleet.. but luckily those are rare. With things being added all the time and small tweaks always going in, it keeps the Phoenix Kits highly relevant even for long time players that otherwise have everything.
Honestly, as a method to control the Dilithium Market.. the Phoenix Boxes were a flash of brilliance.
That's pretty much how I view it. In fact the always rebuilding and little tweaks is what I love about STO and what keeps me coming back all the time.
The thread is huge so I apologize if this has been mentioned already. More fleet bank inventory has been requested for years. We already pay EC for the inventory we have there. Just let us buy more but charge much, much more for it. Thank you.
Honestly, as a method to control the Dilithium Market.. the Phoenix Boxes were a flash of brilliance.
They were brilliant at first yes, they made a big dent in an exchange price that was tickling the 500 per Zen mark.
But recently they just aren't having that effect anymore, there's just a lot less demand for their contents now; the exception being the upgrades.
So the upgrades being the most attractive prize shows the true value of what players want I guess. Prizes are ok, but what most want is to experiment and change existing builds. So those upgrades are really rather attractive.
You really want to burn some EC? Let us buy those Phoenix upgrades with EC via a vendor, even for a few million for a pair or similar. Watch people pour billions of EC into that sinkhole and remove that EC from the game permanently.
They'd do better with the Phoenix Boxes if they up'd the percentage on UR or Epic Tokens a smidge.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Honestly, as a method to control the Dilithium Market.. the Phoenix Boxes were a flash of brilliance.
They were brilliant at first yes, they made a big dent in an exchange price that was tickling the 500 per Zen mark.
But recently they just aren't having that effect anymore, there's just a lot less demand for their contents now; the exception being the upgrades.
So the upgrades being the most attractive prize shows the true value of what players want I guess. Prizes are ok, but what most want is to experiment and change existing builds. So those upgrades are really rather attractive.
I would expect most of the players who were willing to spend massive amounts of dil to get the rare prizes will have either got what they wanted or exhausted their budgets by now. I got the only thing I wanted (a Bulwark) on the first run.
The problem with the Phoenix box is old players already have all the contents and new players can't afford to buy large masses of them. And the upgrades, really, don't actually sink any extra dil. The Phoenix upgrades are just replacing regular upgrades which would also cost dil.
You really want to burn some EC? Let us buy those Phoenix upgrades with EC via a vendor, even for a few million for a pair or similar. Watch people pour billions of EC into that sinkhole and remove that EC from the game permanently.
And shoot the dilex rate through the cap permanently.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
They'd do better with the Phoenix Boxes if they up'd the percentage on UR or Epic Tokens a smidge.
They'd do better with better scheduling. The Phoenix event is far more effective, when its not followed up immediately by, or has something that makex Zen more desirable at the same time like a new ship release.
The last Phoenix Box event was neutralized by the release of the Command Dreadnought Cruisers.
And it was a few days right after a Dilitium Bonus Weekend.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Lt. Philip J. Minns
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
The way I see the Phoenix Event's effectiveness... its like shopping for land.
LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION.
So while playing WoW today an idea occurred to me that could help with this. If they revamp TFO loot such that they included unique loot that was worth using they could then introduce an NPC on ESD that sold tokens for EC that you could use for a bonus chance at loot if what you want doesn't drop or if someone else wins the roll for it. This would meet all four criteria of "Meaningful, Desirable, Repeatable, and Accessible", though it would probably require a decent amount of developer time to get the system working and to develop some decent loot for TFOs.
EDIT: An easier to implement variation on this might be tokens that give you a bonus chance at getting a higher rarity phoenix prize, or a bonus chance at getting a lockbox / promo ship when opening the respective boxes? These options would obviously need to be far more expensive EC wise than the loot idea, and would directly impact monetization methods, but they would likely be easier to implement.
sounds a little like the end-of-dungeon/skirmish chests in neverwinter...where if you don't like the results, you can pay (or spend a reroll token which only VIP members get) to change the results
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Comments
The number of ships is not incidental because it shows it’s impossible for zen from lifetimers to cover the costs of more than 1% of keys to get those ships. Which means if you go with your solution the devs would lose their main revenue stream which would most likely kill the game.
99.9% of keys that come from dilithium conversion come from players buying those keys with ZEN and 99% of Zen comes from people spending real cash. Don’t you see how if you remove all those keys from ZEN and players get them via EC you are cutting off massive revenue? Enough revenue to kill the game.
“Over ten years - lifers would have received over 60,000 Zen...each...tell me again how that's not enough? Assuming that Zen was part of the LTS from the beginning, which I can't recall if it was...”
Because the amount of zen needed to cover current ships and key sales is in the many millions per lockbox. When more than a million ZEN is traded per lockbox that 60,000 ZEN over 10 years is a drop in the ocean over the entire range of lockbox’s of what is needed to provide enough keys.
60,000 over 10 years is enough for 2 and a half ships. Now consider when a new lockbox comes out that ship is scrolling across the screen multiple times a second. It’s clear there cannot possibly be enough life time members to remotely come close to covering the keys that are needed.
Another way to look at it is 60,000 ZEN over 10 years only covers enough keys for half a month for 1 person trying to get 2 ships out of box.
The majority of players are not lifers; the majority are free to play. The small group of lifers do not come close to producing enough ZEN to cover the amount of keys needed on a daily basis. Which is why your solution is wrong and would seriously hurt the game.
You have still yet to provide any evidence I asked for. Do you have any evidence? Please don't say go back 10 pages as that was disproven, what you said then has been shown to be incorrect.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
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Thus Bort is looking to find ways to remove EC from the table without kicking the table over.
My character Tsin'xing
Or we could use EC to buy Salvage Points at a hefty cost like 1000 EC to 1 Salvage Point. This would consume the EC just as well as using it as gasoline.
We pay less then 100 EC per 1 salvage point now... buy some mk 10-12 purple junk off the exchange and salvage it.
That would have only worked as a sink if salvage wasn't already a thing. If they had released it in a way that the only way to get it would be to trade EC for it... that could have been a decent sink. Of course now the masses of already re rolled their best gear and the system is already in place. Would have worked well though if they had decided they wanted an ec sink sooner.
How about NO. Because you forget that brand new characters, moreso brand new players, have 0 ECs. That means they can't even play the game and get anything to sell for ECs to fuel their ship. They are literally STRANDED and cannot play the game.
Besides... technically speaking that is already how vendors work. Instead of handing over a Credit Chit like a credit card, we're basically converting a set amount of energy into the item we are buying. Kinda like a replicator. After all... how many vendors actually look like they have a full on store with items on display? Not very many. Some just have a counter, like the ship item vendor on ESD. So you can just headcanon that they're making the items for you in a replicator, or they are requisitioning the items from another location.
This certainly holds true for me. Since they were introduced I think I have probably opened maybe 500 phoenix boxes or there about. As an old timer I already had everything in it. Every box was opened for the tech upgrades. I feel bad for the people opening these for the old event ships, those ultra rare and epic ship tokens are no more common then lockbox ships.
The key is not putting up alternate ways to get stuff people already have anyway, but creating new things.
They can put up pretty much anything that's unique and people will get it, as long as it's good enough to matter. Repeatability can come from a lockbox/phoenix box-like random chance and/or from simply needing many copies to fully level up whatever it is, but uniqeueness is the key. Because if it's anything that's already available elsewhere, there's always the math of "is it easier to get somewhere else" that caps out the potential value.
All very true, Phoenix Kits will always be in demand.. every time we have an event, I stock up on as many as I can get.
You're right.
Those of us that always re-build according to new changes, additions, or subtractions.. do so because for us it pretty much is the entire end game. No one has to change everything up when their 300k build gets knocked down to a 275k build because of a change.. we do it because it gives us something at end game to do, something to shoot for.
Occasionally, you get things like the S13 super nerfs where I pretty much rebuilt every ship in my fleet.. but luckily those are rare. With things being added all the time and small tweaks always going in, it keeps the Phoenix Kits highly relevant even for long time players that otherwise have everything.
Honestly, as a method to control the Dilithium Market.. the Phoenix Boxes were a flash of brilliance.
They are a good way to balance the DL Economy. Its just that occasionally the timing gets countered and we see very little movement because some new shiny came out around the same time. When there's nothing to counter it, the DL Exchange actually does go gown. But when you happen to release a new ship bundle around the same time... that gets negated.
"-Grind is good!" --Gordon Geko
Accolades checklist: https://bit.ly/FLUFFYS
They were brilliant at first yes, they made a big dent in an exchange price that was tickling the 500 per Zen mark.
But recently they just aren't having that effect anymore, there's just a lot less demand for their contents now; the exception being the upgrades.
So the upgrades being the most attractive prize shows the true value of what players want I guess. Prizes are ok, but what most want is to experiment and change existing builds. So those upgrades are really rather attractive.
You really want to burn some EC? Let us buy those Phoenix upgrades with EC via a vendor, even for a few million for a pair or similar. Watch people pour billions of EC into that sinkhole and remove that EC from the game permanently.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The problem with the Phoenix box is old players already have all the contents and new players can't afford to buy large masses of them. And the upgrades, really, don't actually sink any extra dil. The Phoenix upgrades are just replacing regular upgrades which would also cost dil.
And shoot the dilex rate through the cap permanently.
They'd do better with better scheduling. The Phoenix event is far more effective, when its not followed up immediately by, or has something that makex Zen more desirable at the same time like a new ship release.
The last Phoenix Box event was neutralized by the release of the Command Dreadnought Cruisers.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION.
EDIT: An easier to implement variation on this might be tokens that give you a bonus chance at getting a higher rarity phoenix prize, or a bonus chance at getting a lockbox / promo ship when opening the respective boxes? These options would obviously need to be far more expensive EC wise than the loot idea, and would directly impact monetization methods, but they would likely be easier to implement.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"