I don't understand why people insist that they're disagreeing with me when they're clearly agreeing with what I'm saying. The "math" can be interpreted in many ways - you just conceded that cornering the market is not only possible but easy...which is what I've been typing about all along.
We are not agreeing with what you are saying, if you think that then you have a major misunderstanding on what is being said.
The math cannot be interpreted in many ways in this situation. Also I did not conclude that cornering the market is possible and easy, the opposite in fact. What you said is wrong as cornering the market is for the most part extremely difficult if not impossible most of the time. Just look at new lockbox items or experimental upgrades it’s not really possible to corner the market on those.
Your entire section about drip feeding lockbox items to keep the price high is 100% wrong. It doesn’t work like that.
“I specifically addressed your statements three pages ago, 10 pages ago...”
You mean the statements you made that where pointed out as being flawed and incorrect. Those statements do not disprove what I said.
“I understand the markets because I've studied Macroeconomics...I know why the market is behaving the way it is and why we have EC inflation. I also understand why looking at the exchange is NOT how you measure EC inflation...its how you measure the amount of EC in circulation...and there is WAY more of it than the game can support.”
Yet you don’t seem to understand the market making lots of incorrect statements.
I have seen zero evidence we have EC inflation. Everything points to a deflation market with index tracking showing not only 0% inflation but actual deflation which as you should know is the opposite to inflation. There is zero evidence I have seen there is more EC in the game then the game can support and the exchange is not a measure of EC circulation.
I understand the markets because I've studied Macroeconomics...
See now what we have here is an assertion based on authority. When I studied Epistemology one of the first things they taught us is that assertions based on authority are typically the weakest and least likely to be true.
People are disagreeing with your because your statements, supported by authority, are contradicting their beliefs based upon their experience. Knowledge gained a posteriori is the most likely to be true, so they are right to hold to their belief.
See I can make statements that draw on academic authority too, and based on that authority I assert that you should disregard my statements if they conflict with your experience. Its basic Epistemology.
nix... none of your ideas are viable. Give it a rest and stop beating us with a stick to defend the chicken coop. Hell... so far you've come up with ideas to shut the game down by depriving them of income that keeps th lights on.
Even if you did study economics of some kind like you just claimed, you're not working with ALL relevant data. Just your observed data, which could only be a fraction of the total data, and thus incomplete. And its pretty clear NO ONE here agrees with your "Keys make ECs" train of thought, as it has been pointed out god knows how many times that Lockbox Keys do not add ECs to the economy. They just move existing ECs around. A fact you have, multiple times, ingored. Not only that, you have single handedly devolved this thread into a debate on the economy of the game in general, acted like you know all, disregarded opposing viewpoints, and have generally declared all of us to be idiots who don't know an EC from a rock for all intents and purposes.
Some of us have been working the Exchange for a long time to get what we want. For myself, I have gotten just about all my fancy lockbox gear off the Exchange, generally by selling various items including tech upgrades. So I know a thing or two about the Exchange, as well as the general behavior of the Dilithium Exchange as well. You don't see me bashing anyone who doesn't agree with me. I am not all knowing, and I certainly don't act like it. We all have differing viewpoints, with different sets of data to draw from. That doesn't make their viewpoint any less relevant than your own.
This is a complex issue. One that no one person can magically solve by saying "Oh just do this because I studied economics!" And frankly... ANYONE on the internet can say something like that. And we don't know if its true or not because we're just avatars and text on a screen. We can say we studied anything at all, and no one can refute or confirm that really. Hell... I can say that I have a degree in Astrophysics if I wanted to. (I don't by the way)
So... respectfully... stop beating us with the stick. Unless you are willing to listen to differing viewpoints your continued use of "The beatings will continue until morale improves" tactics is not earning you any points. In fact it is showing a complete unwillingness to consider anyone else's viewpoints that do not line up with your own.
My ideas? I only had ONE idea...make lockbox keys purchasable for EC from a vendor in game. How is that not viable? Because Cryptic needs money? There are LOTS of things you can buy in the Z-store and the majority of lockbox keys come from dilithium refinement and conversion, not direct purchases. What else do you have?
Out of curiosity Professor where do you think all that zen comes from that people are picking up with their Dilithium to buy keys?
I have no authority, I am not a name. I studied Macroeconomics, which is a fact.
Authority is a source of knowledge that you gain from the assertion of others, such as your parents, a book, a teacher or an expert.
If you are not arguing from authority why are you asserting that you studied macroeconomics?
Either your first statement is correct, and you have no authority, in which case your second statement is a lie.
Or your second statement is correct in which case your first statement is a lie.
In either case you have lost any ability to represent yourself as an expert. This topic is not: What subjects has everyone studied. The topic is, how can we reduce ec inflation. The only reason to repeatedly bring up what you have studied is to assert knowledge by authority and thus divert criticism... which you have also failed to do.
No, really. Saying "nuh uh" doesn't change my view that you don't understand this topic. Provide a counterargument that we can follow and show us that you understand something that I don't.
Please take your own advice as you are doing the very thing you excuse me off. I didn’t say "nuh uh" I provided evidence, numbers and facts to go alongside my opinion. I showed valid figures via an index tracker that we have deflation not inflation.
Not only did I post a valid counterargument with evidence to show we have deflation. I also clearly explained why you are wrong on the lockbox and I clearly provided a valid counterargument on why you are wrong on cornering the market. Where is your counterargument that we can follow that shows you understand the subject? Just going "nuh uh" doesn't discredit what I said.
“That other posters in this thread have not studied macroeconomics is another fact.”
That is not a fact it’s something you have made up and are treating like a fact. Which is something you have done multiple times now. You are not the only person in the world to study macroeconomics and not the only person in this forum to study macroeconomics.
Where is your evidence no one else studied macroeconomics apart from you? Where is your evidence we have inflation? Where is your evidence there is a problem with EC and where it your evidence there is more EC then the game can handle?
“How is that not viable? Because Cryptic needs money? There are LOTS of things you can buy in the Z-store and the majority of lockbox keys come from dilithium refinement and conversion, not direct purchases. What else do you have?”
Again you just showed your compete misunderstanding of how the market works. Over 99% of keys come from ZEN and over 99% of ZEN comes from players spending cash which goes to Cryptic which means over 99% of keys in game come from direct purchases. If you use your idea and take that away you are taking away a massive revenue stream from Cryptic.
The majority of keys do not appear out of thin air and come from dilithium refinement and conversion. The majority of keys come from people spending real money and buying them from Cryptic. The much less then 1% comes from promotions stipends.
From a pure speculation point of view what is the actual issue they are hoping to address here?
Is it the fact that inflation is leading to certain items becoming ever more expensive on the player exchange an they want to reign that in?
Is it because since increasing the EC caps of both players and the exchange listings to multi-billion limits the servers now need to handle excessively large numbers that strain resources?
If it's the first then there isa lot of complex issues at play there; lockbox mechanics, RNG crafting, ease of access to more desirable gear from fleet/rep/missions, excessive rarity of certain items, whales, hoarders, market controllers.....it's all a massive jumble of issues. You can't just change one thing and hope to solve the problem.
If it's the second issue then a simple solution is to just remove a zero off the value of everything that needs an EC value. Simply reduce the size of the numbers needed for the data regarding costs/prices by reducing all numbers using said values by the same. Just move the decimal point, remove a zero. A lockbox ship still retains its value as everything got reduced equally (including EC held by players).
nix... none of your ideas are viable. Give it a rest and stop beating us with a stick to defend the chicken coop. Hell... so far you've come up with ideas to shut the game down by depriving them of income that keeps th lights on.
Even if you did study economics of some kind like you just claimed, you're not working with ALL relevant data. Just your observed data, which could only be a fraction of the total data, and thus incomplete. And its pretty clear NO ONE here agrees with your "Keys make ECs" train of thought, as it has been pointed out god knows how many times that Lockbox Keys do not add ECs to the economy. They just move existing ECs around. A fact you have, multiple times, ingored. Not only that, you have single handedly devolved this thread into a debate on the economy of the game in general, acted like you know all, disregarded opposing viewpoints, and have generally declared all of us to be idiots who don't know an EC from a rock for all intents and purposes.
Some of us have been working the Exchange for a long time to get what we want. For myself, I have gotten just about all my fancy lockbox gear off the Exchange, generally by selling various items including tech upgrades. So I know a thing or two about the Exchange, as well as the general behavior of the Dilithium Exchange as well. You don't see me bashing anyone who doesn't agree with me. I am not all knowing, and I certainly don't act like it. We all have differing viewpoints, with different sets of data to draw from. That doesn't make their viewpoint any less relevant than your own.
This is a complex issue. One that no one person can magically solve by saying "Oh just do this because I studied economics!" And frankly... ANYONE on the internet can say something like that. And we don't know if its true or not because we're just avatars and text on a screen. We can say we studied anything at all, and no one can refute or confirm that really. Hell... I can say that I have a degree in Astrophysics if I wanted to. (I don't by the way)
So... respectfully... stop beating us with the stick. Unless you are willing to listen to differing viewpoints your continued use of "The beatings will continue until morale improves" tactics is not earning you any points. In fact it is showing a complete unwillingness to consider anyone else's viewpoints that do not line up with your own.
My ideas? I only had ONE idea...make lockbox keys purchasable for EC from a vendor in game. How is that not viable? Because Cryptic needs money? There are LOTS of things you can buy in the Z-store and the majority of lockbox keys come from dilithium refinement and conversion, not direct purchases. What else do you have?
Let me start by saying I don't really buy keys. I did, but I've figured out there are MUCH easier ways to obtain the shinies I want. I think suggesting that Cryptic gets rid of one of the top few income streams is ... well ... I'm not entirely sure what macroeconomics is, but if your thinking is representative of it? Then it's wrong headed and painfully self harming for Cryptic.
This game exists to make money. That is its sole reason for being. The fact that it's fun for many people playing it simply helps it make that money. Carrots are dangled, people pay money to have the carrots. I really fail to see the issue in that basic premise.
You suggest making the carrots freely available, removing a revenue stream from Cryptic. Please don't try to lecture me on how little it makes from keys, you have no idea. It's likely that no-one outside Cryptic/PWE has hard data how much is made from particular streams.
I can't believe you are being unintentionally ignorant. Despite many posters having made far more reasoned and intelligent arguments than I'm capable of, you are resolute in your position. I admire your dedication to this trolling. At least I hope it is trolling, because if you truly believe this is how things work? I think that's worse.
EDIT - One other note to make, you claim that the majority of keys are bought from Dil refining and exchanging for Zen? May I ask where you think that Zen comes from? Could it be that someone bought Zen with real money and posted it in exchange for Dilithium? I'm pretty sure that's how the system works.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,585Community Moderator
“Yeah, no. Either you don't remember the things you've typed or you're being argumentative simply to argue. Exactly one page ago you agreed with me about people cornering the market then asserted that it was hard to do while agreeing that it was entirely possible to do.”
Exactly one page ago I disagreed with you. You pretend I agreed with you and I made it clear you misunderstood and in fact I disagree. My words where clear “try that with one of the popular areas of the market and it just doesn’t work like you say.”“the market is for the most part extremely difficult if not impossible most of the time. Just look at new lockbox items or experimental upgrades it’s not really possible to corner the market on those.” you are wrong and I do not agree. Stop trying to twist my words. You got it wrong and I never agreed with what you put.
“You argued that we can't have EC lockbox keys because Cryptic needs to make money then told me that you have knowledge that 99% of keys come from players spending cash for Zen which is patently false because lifers get free Zen every month.”
Its not patently false its basic math. Lifers fall within the 1% I talked about. The other 99% comes from players spending cash. Lifers get 6000 zen a year which is 50 keys a year. It takes on average 200 keys to get 1 ship so it takes a lifer 4 years to save up to get enough keys for 1 ship on average.
Given the amount of ships on the market and given the low volume of lifers its clear lifers keys from free zen make up less than 1%. It’s not possible for lifers to remotely cover the key market with the free zen. Again you failed at Macroeconomics.
You have failed to address my position and you have failed to provide the evidence I asked for. Your posting has been proven to be flawed and wrong. Your idea will massively hurt the game by cutting off one of the core sources of revenue the devs rely on.
Outfits. EC only outfits. 1 million EC for a top or bottom, 2 million for a top/bottom set. 3 million for a hat, need to keep that cryptic logic after all.
I agree. Space Barbie for the win here. It's the one and only thing noboy can escape.
lol true,.
...but honestly i think you need to get rid of the many currency. Just keep one,.. ec or dilithium.. have it in the store and everywhere…. Remove the zen and the thousand other currency. It is really these lockboxes creating this and the fact there is nothing else to get. You put all the new shiny things in the lockboxes. I also rarely get stuff from rep system because there are SO many options. Its pretty easy to get stuff in rep. crafting and all that. its chaotic.
Borticus incorrectly assumes that players haven't been paying billions in EC for items all along. They have, though, but in private deals and trading channels, because the Exchange cap previously prevented listing items at those prices. Upping the Exchange cap brought those trades more into the "light of day," but it didn't cause prices to inflate. Using the example of Lockbox ships, Borticus acknowledges that supply is a factor in Exchange pricing, but doesn't seem to give it enough credence. This is to be expected, of course, because the odds of getting a ship from a Lockbox indirectly helps fund the game.
There's a very simple mathematical formula to determine the base price of a Lockbox ship: (Exchange price of 1 key in EC) x (the average number of opened Lockboxes to get a ship, the odds) = starting price in EC for a Lockbox ship on the Exchange. There are player-controlled variables, of course, like desirability, rarity, etc., that can influence that price up or down, but one can reasonably expect and calculate these prices. Notice the multiplier in this formula relates to the odds programmed into opening the box, a variable controlled by Cryptic. Bring the odds down, and the price comes down, too. The base price in EC of a key can also be determined mathematically, since a key costs 125 Zen in the C-Store and there are Zen to Dilithium to EC and vice versa equations. End result: Do the math and you'll understand why Exchange prices are what they are. Reducing the amount of EC in-game won't bring Exchange prices down, though, because as I said, they've always been that high. It'll just mean fewer people will be able to afford said ships and further concentrate the "wealth" on those who already have it.
Man.. what to say here but.. nailed it. Most of the ideas posted will do nothing but put expensive items even further out of reach for most players.
the majority of lockbox keys come from dilithium refinement and conversion, not direct purchases.
See, here is where it all falls apart.
Where is your data to support this claim? Because I would be willing to bet a fairly substantial sum that it's completely wrong.
There is a reason why Cryptic puts their most desirable ships in Lock Boxes (and R&D Boxes) and that is money. Keys bring in cash.. a lot of it. In fact, I would not be the least bit surprised to find out that Keys are probably the main source of money for Cryptic. Can I prove this? No.. no more then you can prove that 'no one buys keys,' but the fact that they keep releasing desirable ships in lock boxes seems to run contrary to your assumption.
While selling keys in game from vendors might be a good solution it's not viable due to the loss of revenue it would cost Cryptic. Your assumption that keys don't make money is completely unfounded and as out there as just about everything else you have said so far.
The real problem is no useful solution can be proposed without a clear definition of what, exactly, Borticus thinks is already happening that needs to change.
without a clear definition of the "Problem" nobody is going to be able to propose a workable solution, regardless of how much expertise they claim to have, or have, or may have gained.
we do not have a clear definition here-we've got a string of criteria but without a clear definition of the problem everything is going to devolve as it has in these discussions, to people listing 'krissmuss gifts' on one side, and punishment on the other.
Fundamentally, there are no commodities in the game, and EC as it is presently structured is literally only worth what the playerbase feels it to be worth, and this is only demonstrated on the resale/auction-house market and trading.
nix... none of your ideas are viable. Give it a rest and stop beating us with a stick to defend the chicken coop. Hell... so far you've come up with ideas to shut the game down by depriving them of income that keeps th lights on.
Even if you did study economics of some kind like you just claimed, you're not working with ALL relevant data. Just your observed data, which could only be a fraction of the total data, and thus incomplete. And its pretty clear NO ONE here agrees with your "Keys make ECs" train of thought, as it has been pointed out god knows how many times that Lockbox Keys do not add ECs to the economy. They just move existing ECs around. A fact you have, multiple times, ingored. Not only that, you have single handedly devolved this thread into a debate on the economy of the game in general, acted like you know all, disregarded opposing viewpoints, and have generally declared all of us to be idiots who don't know an EC from a rock for all intents and purposes.
Some of us have been working the Exchange for a long time to get what we want. For myself, I have gotten just about all my fancy lockbox gear off the Exchange, generally by selling various items including tech upgrades. So I know a thing or two about the Exchange, as well as the general behavior of the Dilithium Exchange as well. You don't see me bashing anyone who doesn't agree with me. I am not all knowing, and I certainly don't act like it. We all have differing viewpoints, with different sets of data to draw from. That doesn't make their viewpoint any less relevant than your own.
This is a complex issue. One that no one person can magically solve by saying "Oh just do this because I studied economics!" And frankly... ANYONE on the internet can say something like that. And we don't know if its true or not because we're just avatars and text on a screen. We can say we studied anything at all, and no one can refute or confirm that really. Hell... I can say that I have a degree in Astrophysics if I wanted to. (I don't by the way)
So... respectfully... stop beating us with the stick. Unless you are willing to listen to differing viewpoints your continued use of "The beatings will continue until morale improves" tactics is not earning you any points. In fact it is showing a complete unwillingness to consider anyone else's viewpoints that do not line up with your own.
My ideas? I only had ONE idea...make lockbox keys purchasable for EC from a vendor in game. How is that not viable? Because Cryptic needs money? There are LOTS of things you can buy in the Z-store and the majority of lockbox keys come from dilithium refinement and conversion, not direct purchases. What else do you have?
Out of curiosity Professor where do you think all that zen comes from that people are picking up with their Dilithium to buy keys?
I didn't know there was an in game zen farm.
Lifers...
A miniscule amount comes from lifers. (and even if it did... they still PAID Cryptic) The majority believe it or not comes from people buying zen to buy Dil with. I know crazy right... every single Zen in the game represents an actual cash purchase.
nix... none of your ideas are viable. Give it a rest and stop beating us with a stick to defend the chicken coop. Hell... so far you've come up with ideas to shut the game down by depriving them of income that keeps th lights on.
Even if you did study economics of some kind like you just claimed, you're not working with ALL relevant data. Just your observed data, which could only be a fraction of the total data, and thus incomplete. And its pretty clear NO ONE here agrees with your "Keys make ECs" train of thought, as it has been pointed out god knows how many times that Lockbox Keys do not add ECs to the economy. They just move existing ECs around. A fact you have, multiple times, ingored. Not only that, you have single handedly devolved this thread into a debate on the economy of the game in general, acted like you know all, disregarded opposing viewpoints, and have generally declared all of us to be idiots who don't know an EC from a rock for all intents and purposes.
Some of us have been working the Exchange for a long time to get what we want. For myself, I have gotten just about all my fancy lockbox gear off the Exchange, generally by selling various items including tech upgrades. So I know a thing or two about the Exchange, as well as the general behavior of the Dilithium Exchange as well. You don't see me bashing anyone who doesn't agree with me. I am not all knowing, and I certainly don't act like it. We all have differing viewpoints, with different sets of data to draw from. That doesn't make their viewpoint any less relevant than your own.
This is a complex issue. One that no one person can magically solve by saying "Oh just do this because I studied economics!" And frankly... ANYONE on the internet can say something like that. And we don't know if its true or not because we're just avatars and text on a screen. We can say we studied anything at all, and no one can refute or confirm that really. Hell... I can say that I have a degree in Astrophysics if I wanted to. (I don't by the way)
So... respectfully... stop beating us with the stick. Unless you are willing to listen to differing viewpoints your continued use of "The beatings will continue until morale improves" tactics is not earning you any points. In fact it is showing a complete unwillingness to consider anyone else's viewpoints that do not line up with your own.
My ideas? I only had ONE idea...make lockbox keys purchasable for EC from a vendor in game. How is that not viable? Because Cryptic needs money? There are LOTS of things you can buy in the Z-store and the majority of lockbox keys come from dilithium refinement and conversion, not direct purchases. What else do you have?
Let me start by saying I don't really buy keys. I did, but I've figured out there are MUCH easier ways to obtain the shinies I want. I think suggesting that Cryptic gets rid of one of the top few income streams is ... well ... I'm not entirely sure what macroeconomics is, but if your thinking is representative of it? Then it's wrong headed and painfully self harming for Cryptic.
This game exists to make money. That is its sole reason for being. The fact that it's fun for many people playing it simply helps it make that money. Carrots are dangled, people pay money to have the carrots. I really fail to see the issue in that basic premise.
You suggest making the carrots freely available, removing a revenue stream from Cryptic. Please don't try to lecture me on how little it makes from keys, you have no idea. It's likely that no-one outside Cryptic/PWE has hard data how much is made from particular streams.
I can't believe you are being unintentionally ignorant. Despite many posters having made far more reasoned and intelligent arguments than I'm capable of, you are resolute in your position. I admire your dedication to this trolling. At least I hope it is trolling, because if you truly believe this is how things work? I think that's worse.
EDIT - One other note to make, you claim that the majority of keys are bought from Dil refining and exchanging for Zen? May I ask where you think that Zen comes from? Could it be that someone bought Zen with real money and posted it in exchange for Dilithium? I'm pretty sure that's how the system works.
What you are doing here is moving the goal posts. The PROBLEM is EC Inflation which can be easily solved by just making lockbox keys available from an ingame vendor at a low-ish price. Substituting ANY discussion about how Cryptic makes money is entirely beyond the scope of this brainstorming enterprise. And, again, Lifetime subscribers get a monthly stipend of Zen every month. I don't know if you all don't know that...
You don't really understand economics very well.
Lifers get 500 zen a month. Which means they can buy 10 keys every TWO months.
Yesterday I bought and burned off the exchange with EC 180 keys. So your trying to say 18 lifers spent 2 months of stipend to supply me one day of key burning.
I don't open 180 keys every day... but I average 60 or so. Again 6 people every day burn 2 months of stipend to supply me... 60 x 60 days = Means that I alone account for burning up 3600 players stipends.
You see how stupid small that is... because I am not even close to the biggest key purchaser. The 60 I remove from the exchange every day are but a small fraction of the keys being picked up and burned.
There is NO WAY stipend accounts for anything but a tiny % of the keys added to the game. The vast majority come directly from people paying Cryptic for Zen.
Which is also why I believe if Cryptic does anything stupid like try and drop lockbox ships by 50% or something insane... the game will be dead in no time. Like it or not we need Lockbox ships to average 400-500 million EC if they don't why would anyone buy keys to sell for EC. Any drop in the high end prize EC cost in game will be a direct loose in revenue for Cryptic.
And as far as the other smaller bits.... the Doffs the consoles the traits and all the other door prize lockbox stuffs. Those prices have been dropping for years now. Doffs that used to be 50+ million sell for under 10. Things like Kemo that used to set people back 10s of millions are now under 5.
Crytpic has things right about perfect right now... but as is typical they have no idea that things are fine. Its cheap to play STO in terms of EC. The only high ticket items are Lockbox and promo ships. If that changed why would anyone need to sell 100s of millions worth of keys bought with real money.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,585Community Moderator
I expect that is because you don't understand how the dilithium/zen exchange works. You don't sell Zen to other players, you sell it to Cryptic.
FALSE!
I have used the DL Exchange quite a bit since it was introduced in fact, know how it works, and how it fluctuates based on in game events/sales. Its how I ground out all those big packs over time. Not only that, YOU are not the authority on how any system in STO works. You are not a programmer. You did not make the DL Exchange. You are nothing more than a normal player like the rest of us trying to pass yourself off as some great master of knowlege as if you have insider knowlege or clarvoyance.
You do NOT have the right to decide who understands and who doesn't.
Stop trolling please. Its blatantly obvious that's what you're doing at this point. All you see is your argument, and not anyone else's viewpoint. You are hung up on your "solution" as if it is the only solution, and disregard anyone elses ideas that don't line up with your own because of you having studied "Macroeconomics".
Stop. Trolling.
A miniscule amount comes from lifers. (and even if it did... they still PAID Cryptic) The majority believe it or not comes from people buying zen to buy Dil with. I know crazy right... every single Zen in the game represents an actual cash purchase.
I believe you grossly underestimate the number of lifetime subscribers this game has. And, the fact that lifers paid for their subscription doesn't change the fact that they get a monthly stipend. The stipend can be used for any purpose and is not the same as a cash purchase. Over ten years - lifers would have received over 60,000 Zen...each...tell me again how that's not enough? Assuming that Zen was part of the LTS from the beginning, which I can't recall if it was...
So IF a lifer was to have bought in day one ... and not spent ANY of their stipend on ships or anything until today. They can spend it all on 600 keys. Which again would supply my key burning habit for 10 days. I have been burning that many keys one and off since lockboxes where added. And during the fist year of in game lockbox when you got more in EC back then you put in buying keys. I probably opened 10x as many boxes. So I would say its fair to say I have averaged 5 years of 60 a day. Or put another way I have burned myself 110k keys over 5 years. So I have used up 183 players LIFE time keys. Assuming 183 lifetime players really did nothing but buy 5 keys per month for 5 years.
And again... I am not alone. There are plenty of people opening lots of boxes. As well as plenty more opening 20 here and there purchased from the exchange.
Stipend is accounting for less then 1% of the keys on the exchange. No doubt.
Comments
The math cannot be interpreted in many ways in this situation. Also I did not conclude that cornering the market is possible and easy, the opposite in fact. What you said is wrong as cornering the market is for the most part extremely difficult if not impossible most of the time. Just look at new lockbox items or experimental upgrades it’s not really possible to corner the market on those.
Your entire section about drip feeding lockbox items to keep the price high is 100% wrong. It doesn’t work like that.
“I specifically addressed your statements three pages ago, 10 pages ago...”
You mean the statements you made that where pointed out as being flawed and incorrect. Those statements do not disprove what I said.
Yet you don’t seem to understand the market making lots of incorrect statements.
I have seen zero evidence we have EC inflation. Everything points to a deflation market with index tracking showing not only 0% inflation but actual deflation which as you should know is the opposite to inflation. There is zero evidence I have seen there is more EC in the game then the game can support and the exchange is not a measure of EC circulation.
See now what we have here is an assertion based on authority. When I studied Epistemology one of the first things they taught us is that assertions based on authority are typically the weakest and least likely to be true.
People are disagreeing with your because your statements, supported by authority, are contradicting their beliefs based upon their experience. Knowledge gained a posteriori is the most likely to be true, so they are right to hold to their belief.
See I can make statements that draw on academic authority too, and based on that authority I assert that you should disregard my statements if they conflict with your experience. Its basic Epistemology.
Out of curiosity Professor where do you think all that zen comes from that people are picking up with their Dilithium to buy keys?
I didn't know there was an in game zen farm.
Authority is a source of knowledge that you gain from the assertion of others, such as your parents, a book, a teacher or an expert.
If you are not arguing from authority why are you asserting that you studied macroeconomics?
Either your first statement is correct, and you have no authority, in which case your second statement is a lie.
Or your second statement is correct in which case your first statement is a lie.
In either case you have lost any ability to represent yourself as an expert. This topic is not: What subjects has everyone studied. The topic is, how can we reduce ec inflation. The only reason to repeatedly bring up what you have studied is to assert knowledge by authority and thus divert criticism... which you have also failed to do.
Not only did I post a valid counterargument with evidence to show we have deflation. I also clearly explained why you are wrong on the lockbox and I clearly provided a valid counterargument on why you are wrong on cornering the market. Where is your counterargument that we can follow that shows you understand the subject? Just going "nuh uh" doesn't discredit what I said.
That is not a fact it’s something you have made up and are treating like a fact. Which is something you have done multiple times now. You are not the only person in the world to study macroeconomics and not the only person in this forum to study macroeconomics.
Where is your evidence no one else studied macroeconomics apart from you? Where is your evidence we have inflation? Where is your evidence there is a problem with EC and where it your evidence there is more EC then the game can handle?
Again you just showed your compete misunderstanding of how the market works. Over 99% of keys come from ZEN and over 99% of ZEN comes from players spending cash which goes to Cryptic which means over 99% of keys in game come from direct purchases. If you use your idea and take that away you are taking away a massive revenue stream from Cryptic.
The majority of keys do not appear out of thin air and come from dilithium refinement and conversion. The majority of keys come from people spending real money and buying them from Cryptic. The much less then 1% comes from promotions stipends.
Is it the fact that inflation is leading to certain items becoming ever more expensive on the player exchange an they want to reign that in?
Is it because since increasing the EC caps of both players and the exchange listings to multi-billion limits the servers now need to handle excessively large numbers that strain resources?
If it's the first then there isa lot of complex issues at play there; lockbox mechanics, RNG crafting, ease of access to more desirable gear from fleet/rep/missions, excessive rarity of certain items, whales, hoarders, market controllers.....it's all a massive jumble of issues. You can't just change one thing and hope to solve the problem.
If it's the second issue then a simple solution is to just remove a zero off the value of everything that needs an EC value. Simply reduce the size of the numbers needed for the data regarding costs/prices by reducing all numbers using said values by the same. Just move the decimal point, remove a zero. A lockbox ship still retains its value as everything got reduced equally (including EC held by players).
Let me start by saying I don't really buy keys. I did, but I've figured out there are MUCH easier ways to obtain the shinies I want. I think suggesting that Cryptic gets rid of one of the top few income streams is ... well ... I'm not entirely sure what macroeconomics is, but if your thinking is representative of it? Then it's wrong headed and painfully self harming for Cryptic.
This game exists to make money. That is its sole reason for being. The fact that it's fun for many people playing it simply helps it make that money. Carrots are dangled, people pay money to have the carrots. I really fail to see the issue in that basic premise.
You suggest making the carrots freely available, removing a revenue stream from Cryptic. Please don't try to lecture me on how little it makes from keys, you have no idea. It's likely that no-one outside Cryptic/PWE has hard data how much is made from particular streams.
I can't believe you are being unintentionally ignorant. Despite many posters having made far more reasoned and intelligent arguments than I'm capable of, you are resolute in your position. I admire your dedication to this trolling. At least I hope it is trolling, because if you truly believe this is how things work? I think that's worse.
EDIT - One other note to make, you claim that the majority of keys are bought from Dil refining and exchanging for Zen? May I ask where you think that Zen comes from? Could it be that someone bought Zen with real money and posted it in exchange for Dilithium? I'm pretty sure that's how the system works.
I wasn't aware there were enough lifers to support the Dilithium Exchange every day to the levels we have... on 500 a month.
Its not patently false its basic math. Lifers fall within the 1% I talked about. The other 99% comes from players spending cash. Lifers get 6000 zen a year which is 50 keys a year. It takes on average 200 keys to get 1 ship so it takes a lifer 4 years to save up to get enough keys for 1 ship on average.
Given the amount of ships on the market and given the low volume of lifers its clear lifers keys from free zen make up less than 1%. It’s not possible for lifers to remotely cover the key market with the free zen. Again you failed at Macroeconomics.
You have failed to address my position and you have failed to provide the evidence I asked for. Your posting has been proven to be flawed and wrong. Your idea will massively hurt the game by cutting off one of the core sources of revenue the devs rely on.
lol true,.
...but honestly i think you need to get rid of the many currency. Just keep one,.. ec or dilithium.. have it in the store and everywhere…. Remove the zen and the thousand other currency. It is really these lockboxes creating this and the fact there is nothing else to get. You put all the new shiny things in the lockboxes. I also rarely get stuff from rep system because there are SO many options. Its pretty easy to get stuff in rep. crafting and all that. its chaotic.
Man.. what to say here but.. nailed it. Most of the ideas posted will do nothing but put expensive items even further out of reach for most players.
See, here is where it all falls apart.
Where is your data to support this claim? Because I would be willing to bet a fairly substantial sum that it's completely wrong.
There is a reason why Cryptic puts their most desirable ships in Lock Boxes (and R&D Boxes) and that is money. Keys bring in cash.. a lot of it. In fact, I would not be the least bit surprised to find out that Keys are probably the main source of money for Cryptic. Can I prove this? No.. no more then you can prove that 'no one buys keys,' but the fact that they keep releasing desirable ships in lock boxes seems to run contrary to your assumption.
While selling keys in game from vendors might be a good solution it's not viable due to the loss of revenue it would cost Cryptic. Your assumption that keys don't make money is completely unfounded and as out there as just about everything else you have said so far.
We all took Economics in high school, I don't believe for one second that you have any formal education in Economics beyond that level.
Absolutely agreed.
A miniscule amount comes from lifers. (and even if it did... they still PAID Cryptic) The majority believe it or not comes from people buying zen to buy Dil with. I know crazy right... every single Zen in the game represents an actual cash purchase.
You don't really understand economics very well.
Lifers get 500 zen a month. Which means they can buy 10 keys every TWO months.
Yesterday I bought and burned off the exchange with EC 180 keys. So your trying to say 18 lifers spent 2 months of stipend to supply me one day of key burning.
I don't open 180 keys every day... but I average 60 or so. Again 6 people every day burn 2 months of stipend to supply me... 60 x 60 days = Means that I alone account for burning up 3600 players stipends.
You see how stupid small that is... because I am not even close to the biggest key purchaser. The 60 I remove from the exchange every day are but a small fraction of the keys being picked up and burned.
There is NO WAY stipend accounts for anything but a tiny % of the keys added to the game. The vast majority come directly from people paying Cryptic for Zen.
Which is also why I believe if Cryptic does anything stupid like try and drop lockbox ships by 50% or something insane... the game will be dead in no time. Like it or not we need Lockbox ships to average 400-500 million EC if they don't why would anyone buy keys to sell for EC. Any drop in the high end prize EC cost in game will be a direct loose in revenue for Cryptic.
And as far as the other smaller bits.... the Doffs the consoles the traits and all the other door prize lockbox stuffs. Those prices have been dropping for years now. Doffs that used to be 50+ million sell for under 10. Things like Kemo that used to set people back 10s of millions are now under 5.
Crytpic has things right about perfect right now... but as is typical they have no idea that things are fine. Its cheap to play STO in terms of EC. The only high ticket items are Lockbox and promo ships. If that changed why would anyone need to sell 100s of millions worth of keys bought with real money.
FALSE!
I have used the DL Exchange quite a bit since it was introduced in fact, know how it works, and how it fluctuates based on in game events/sales. Its how I ground out all those big packs over time. Not only that, YOU are not the authority on how any system in STO works. You are not a programmer. You did not make the DL Exchange. You are nothing more than a normal player like the rest of us trying to pass yourself off as some great master of knowlege as if you have insider knowlege or clarvoyance.
You do NOT have the right to decide who understands and who doesn't.
Stop trolling please. Its blatantly obvious that's what you're doing at this point. All you see is your argument, and not anyone else's viewpoint. You are hung up on your "solution" as if it is the only solution, and disregard anyone elses ideas that don't line up with your own because of you having studied "Macroeconomics".
Stop. Trolling.
So IF a lifer was to have bought in day one ... and not spent ANY of their stipend on ships or anything until today. They can spend it all on 600 keys. Which again would supply my key burning habit for 10 days. I have been burning that many keys one and off since lockboxes where added. And during the fist year of in game lockbox when you got more in EC back then you put in buying keys. I probably opened 10x as many boxes. So I would say its fair to say I have averaged 5 years of 60 a day. Or put another way I have burned myself 110k keys over 5 years. So I have used up 183 players LIFE time keys. Assuming 183 lifetime players really did nothing but buy 5 keys per month for 5 years.
And again... I am not alone. There are plenty of people opening lots of boxes. As well as plenty more opening 20 here and there purchased from the exchange.
Stipend is accounting for less then 1% of the keys on the exchange. No doubt.