Just a random thought - the problem seems to be the way some players behave, and the only solutions that have been suggested in this thread are to change the code? If the problem is people, the solution needs to involve more than just tweaking lines of code. If there is a Rise of the TFO Trolls, how about a Rise of the TFO Angels/Heroes/Whatever?
If the problem is people who don't know what to do, this community needs to foster a habit of helping others to learn, and not just among fleet members: As did someone I was with in some Borg TFO, they kept directing the whole thing via chat. Attack X, ignore Y, go left, go right. In short, being a teamleader. Commands appeared right on screen, so nobody missed it.
If the problem is people who get off on making others suffer, call such behaviour out, which is already happening in this thread, but perhaps the people who are *not* out to ruin things for others aren't vocal enough ingame, I don't know.
If the problem is queues not being time-efficient, minimise your losses by setting up private queues with people who are your peers in every respect, instead of wasting your time with losers on the public queue
If the problem is people who don't know what to do, this community needs to foster a habit of helping others to learn [...] As did someone I was with in some Borg TFO, they kept directing the whole thing via chat. Attack X, ignore Y, go left, go right. In short, being a teamleader. Commands appeared right on screen, so nobody missed it.
I think this community is still very much in the habit of helping others. The volume of constructive input into this thread is in part a good indicator of that.
Being a 'team leader' in-game is no small task and takes a good deal of effort for a knowledgeable player to both type and play hard at the same time. It's also fraught with difficulty as it assumes other players actually are paying attention to team chat and that other team members sometime can take even the simplest of instructions the wrong way. My hat goes off to those that do try as leadership can be an amazing thing, but can also understand that even for those that are capable of this there are going to be times where they may choose to compensate for less effective team members in other ways.
If the problem is people who get off on making others suffer, call such behaviour out, which is already happening in this thread, but perhaps the people who are *not* out to ruin things for others aren't vocal enough ingame, I don't know.
This is fraught with difficulty. Is that fellow team member actually an afk'r, troll, or (insert other descriptive) or are they just a newer player, encountering game or connection issues, or dealing with a real life urgent matter? It's can be difficult at best in the heat of the moment to send a message that is constructive and correct.
If the problem is queues not being time-efficient, minimize your losses by setting up private queues with people who are your peers in every respect, instead of wasting your time with losers on the public queue
Not disagreeing with the first part of what you said but RTFO's are the meat and potatoes of the game for many and the opportunity to set up a private may not always be an option. As to the term you used in the second part it kind of highlights the two dimensional nature of the printed word whether here or in team chat and some of the difficulties involved in your earlier suggestions relating to leadership and perhaps more so in calling people out.
> @somtaawkhar said: > This. Automatic fail conditions only make sense in elite TFOs, since no one pugs elites.
I plugged 'Binary Circuit' on Elite back in May/June 2017. That is the only Elite content I have played after Delta Rising released and the former Elite basically became Advanced.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,588Community Moderator
I think the "Request Reinforcements" idea is actually one of the more level headed ideas that came up in this thread. It allows for the team in the STF to have a choice. If they feel confident they can do it as is they can do so, but if they feel they need help, they can hit the button, and that particular instance is flagged as accepting drop ins.
As for the complaining about failed optionals... I admit I get a little annoyed, especially if it was caused by some stupid mistake. But things happen. Fact of Life. I'm not going to rant and rave about not getting the optionals all the time because guess what? They're OPTIONAL. Its NOT NECESSARY to get them. And honestly the added reward from doing them isn't that much of a multiplier of any kind.
Maybe if they do the "Request Reinforcements" thing, they can add a little something to it for dropping into an already active instance. But to recieve said little something, be it some kind of reward, you gotta stick through to the end. And the people who requested the aid can also recieve a little bit as well.
Just spitballin' on that part really. But I kinda like this idea of being able to flag an instance in case of getting shorthanded. If you wanna take it one step further, add a way for players to flag themselves as willing to drop into an active instance as well. That way people who are willing to help can go while those who are afraid of not getting maximum reward (IE those who complained about failed optionals) don't have to.
To be fair, the "failed optional" thing was almost always in regards to the Borg TFOs, which Cryptic are likely to axe and replace at some point. As we have seen with the Discovery TFOs, the optionals have been changed largely from either a straight pass/fail to more of a sliding bar sort of thing, or are multi-layered.
Like, failing to save one ship during Starbase 24 doesn't mean you automatically loose all of the "save the evac ships" optional. Likewise, in Battle of Binary Stars, the optional for keeping the Shenzhou above a certain HP, how many escape pods you rescue, and how many ships you destroy in the final phase, all have multiple tiers. So even if you don't get the top tier bonus reward, you are still likely to get A bonus reward. Pahvo works the same way.
Somehow, I don't think the kind of people who instantly ragequit over missing 5 peanuts would be much placated by still having the potential to lose more. But on the other hand, there's no reason to give a rodent's posterior about ragequitters in those queues anyway, since they're all timed to auto-win no matter what happens.
Also, Omega Rep doesn't require the Implants to buy the Space Weapon Set. The only Rep that has Elite Marks that doesn't.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Lately i have noticed that there is a rise in the amount of TFO trolls who make use of the Random TFO mechanic which fills up a TFO once someone has queued for it. Once the TFO has started, they switch characters leaving the remaining members shorthanded.
One queue which IMO is particular vulnerable to this the Herald Sphere with the numerous time gates and cut scenes.
Has anyone else experienced this and which TFO are also vulnerable.
Should certain TFO be removed from the list due to their vulnerability to trolls? Or should people who queued for a TFO the regular way simply not be allowed to switch characters.
I'm one of those "trolls", so many times I warp into a map to find that players have no idea how to successfully finish a mission and won't take the time to listen how to do it right. I save myself a heap of time and frustration and just warp out.
I think there should be some sort of experience level filter so that I could be paired with teammates that know the mission or at the very least are willing to learn from more seasoned teammates.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,588Community Moderator
I think there should be some sort of experience level filter so that I could be paired with teammates that know the mission or at the very least are willing to learn from more seasoned teammates.
Problem with that. You can't really judge a player's experience level. For one thing, this game is rather Alt Friendly. And not everyone has put the same amount of time and effort into alts as they do their main.
For example, my main is running all mk XV gear on a Temporal Connie. Not all gold plated gear, but still mk XV. Now... I also have several alts, including a Discovery character running a Crossfield. However... she has mk XII gear. Same player, same knowledge and experience, but different performance characteristics. Also for the record, I've been playing since just before F2P, so I have quite a bit of experience in ship combat in STO.
Would you automatically assume, if I was on said Discovery character, that I was less experienced? And by what measuring stick would you use? Performance in Infected as seems to be one of the favorites for measuring DPS?
So not only do you not know anything about STO you don't know jack about any other games either. Ever tried playing Gears of War 3's Horde mode? It's like Sompeck on steroids and every wave has a timer, and a timer between waves. That is just 1 example of hundreds. Oh and good job assuming that you know what games I was talking about when I did not mention any names in my previous post.
There is a flaw in your argument. You're comparing apples to oranges here. GoW3 is a 3rd person shooter. When comparing games it is a lot easeir to draw comparisons between similar games. So it would be more fair to compare STO to other MMORPGs like WoW, TOR, and so on.
Also maybe tone down the aggression just a bit. Your response could be viewed as a personal attack.
Wonder if it is possible to program a "Request Reinforcements" type feature to alleviate this issue.
It was. And then they removed it because people whined about being put in queues with failed optionals.
That was because the optionals used to be the only way you'd get Borg Implants, but now you don't need to get them in the drop since you can build them out of the reputation assignments. It is also why Nukara and Romulus didn't have any of the McGuffin things that you needed WITH the reputation currency.
Wrong. BNP's have never dropped from optionals or indeed had anything at all to do with the optionals. The BNP has always dropped guaranteed at the end. People ragequit over something like 10 marks or whatever it's worth.
> @shinnok918 said:
> azrael605 wrote: »
>
> You are still wrong, the "uber dpsers" ridicule cookie cutter builds.
>
>
>
> yet they all run the same energy types, consoles, etc. my issue isn't even that. my issue is the fact he ridiculed the player for no good reason, without offering any good advice, for doing something a lot of players can't do because the player wasn't fast enough so hes still a noob.
No they do not. I have sat in chat with multiple top end dps guys who were arguing with each other about builds. Some of the top guys use Sci Torp boats, others use A2B, others go all beams, others all cannons, any energy type including Tetryon, and so on. I do not know where you get these incorrect ideas, but if even a dedicated non-parser like me knows more about the dpsers than you maybe you should take some time to learn a bit.
There is nothing in this game that any player can't do if they want to. None of it requires money either, money makes it faster, but it is not required.
you missed my overall point. overall point is that the person was ridiculed and no advice was offered up. You are correct nothing in the rules says players cant do what they want, but the way the TFO's are set up, you HAVE to be doing at least 10k minimum to be remotely effective *note 10k is effective in most but certain ones u need to do significantly more depending on difficulty settings and what you are fighting*. don't get me wrong I've been guilty of griping at a person if they aren't pumping out enough damage to be effective, but if they will listen after I get done ranting I'll usually offer up good advice.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,588Community Moderator
As for my tone, patrick has been personally insulting to me for over a year, I give people the same respect they give me.
He hasn't posted all day from the looks of things, and his avatar has the jail overlay on it. He got busted for something. While I do agree that people are respectful if they are respected in return, but sometimes its best to back away before things turn into a flamefest.
I admit I struggle with that myself.
No, that's just not true. You had to complete all the optionals in order to get the McGuffin. If you didn't then you just got dilithium and gear. This was long before there was an Event Reputation to go along with it.
You're talking about the pre rep days with Encrypted Data Chips and Borg Salvage Tech needed to get stuff from the Omega store on DS9. Man... that was YEARS ago.
But honestly that's a whole different animal from what we have now. Its not exactly easy to compare pre-rep days to today.
> @nixboox said: > ltminns wrote: » > > Also, Omega Rep doesn't require the Implants to buy the Space Weapon Set. The only Rep that has Elite Marks that doesn't. > > > > > Not anymore...but before there WAS an Omega Rep you needed those implants to get the sets...it was a lot of them too.
I'm not talking about the Shield/Impulse/Deflector but the Console/Torpedo/Cutting Beam.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Comments
If the problem is people who don't know what to do, this community needs to foster a habit of helping others to learn, and not just among fleet members: As did someone I was with in some Borg TFO, they kept directing the whole thing via chat. Attack X, ignore Y, go left, go right. In short, being a teamleader. Commands appeared right on screen, so nobody missed it.
If the problem is people who get off on making others suffer, call such behaviour out, which is already happening in this thread, but perhaps the people who are *not* out to ruin things for others aren't vocal enough ingame, I don't know.
If the problem is queues not being time-efficient, minimise your losses by setting up private queues with people who are your peers in every respect, instead of wasting your time with losers on the public queue
Being a 'team leader' in-game is no small task and takes a good deal of effort for a knowledgeable player to both type and play hard at the same time. It's also fraught with difficulty as it assumes other players actually are paying attention to team chat and that other team members sometime can take even the simplest of instructions the wrong way. My hat goes off to those that do try as leadership can be an amazing thing, but can also understand that even for those that are capable of this there are going to be times where they may choose to compensate for less effective team members in other ways.
This is fraught with difficulty. Is that fellow team member actually an afk'r, troll, or (insert other descriptive) or are they just a newer player, encountering game or connection issues, or dealing with a real life urgent matter? It's can be difficult at best in the heat of the moment to send a message that is constructive and correct.
Not disagreeing with the first part of what you said but RTFO's are the meat and potatoes of the game for many and the opportunity to set up a private may not always be an option. As to the term you used in the second part it kind of highlights the two dimensional nature of the printed word whether here or in team chat and some of the difficulties involved in your earlier suggestions relating to leadership and perhaps more so in calling people out.
> This. Automatic fail conditions only make sense in elite TFOs, since no one pugs elites.
I plugged 'Binary Circuit' on Elite back in May/June 2017. That is the only Elite content I have played after Delta Rising released and the former Elite basically became Advanced.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
As for the complaining about failed optionals... I admit I get a little annoyed, especially if it was caused by some stupid mistake. But things happen. Fact of Life. I'm not going to rant and rave about not getting the optionals all the time because guess what? They're OPTIONAL. Its NOT NECESSARY to get them. And honestly the added reward from doing them isn't that much of a multiplier of any kind.
Maybe if they do the "Request Reinforcements" thing, they can add a little something to it for dropping into an already active instance. But to recieve said little something, be it some kind of reward, you gotta stick through to the end. And the people who requested the aid can also recieve a little bit as well.
Just spitballin' on that part really. But I kinda like this idea of being able to flag an instance in case of getting shorthanded. If you wanna take it one step further, add a way for players to flag themselves as willing to drop into an active instance as well. That way people who are willing to help can go while those who are afraid of not getting maximum reward (IE those who complained about failed optionals) don't have to.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I'm one of those "trolls", so many times I warp into a map to find that players have no idea how to successfully finish a mission and won't take the time to listen how to do it right. I save myself a heap of time and frustration and just warp out.
I think there should be some sort of experience level filter so that I could be paired with teammates that know the mission or at the very least are willing to learn from more seasoned teammates.
Problem with that. You can't really judge a player's experience level. For one thing, this game is rather Alt Friendly. And not everyone has put the same amount of time and effort into alts as they do their main.
For example, my main is running all mk XV gear on a Temporal Connie. Not all gold plated gear, but still mk XV. Now... I also have several alts, including a Discovery character running a Crossfield. However... she has mk XII gear. Same player, same knowledge and experience, but different performance characteristics. Also for the record, I've been playing since just before F2P, so I have quite a bit of experience in ship combat in STO.
Would you automatically assume, if I was on said Discovery character, that I was less experienced? And by what measuring stick would you use? Performance in Infected as seems to be one of the favorites for measuring DPS?
There is a flaw in your argument. You're comparing apples to oranges here. GoW3 is a 3rd person shooter. When comparing games it is a lot easeir to draw comparisons between similar games. So it would be more fair to compare STO to other MMORPGs like WoW, TOR, and so on.
Also maybe tone down the aggression just a bit. Your response could be viewed as a personal attack.
He hasn't posted all day from the looks of things, and his avatar has the jail overlay on it. He got busted for something. While I do agree that people are respectful if they are respected in return, but sometimes its best to back away before things turn into a flamefest.
I admit I struggle with that myself.
You're talking about the pre rep days with Encrypted Data Chips and Borg Salvage Tech needed to get stuff from the Omega store on DS9. Man... that was YEARS ago.
But honestly that's a whole different animal from what we have now. Its not exactly easy to compare pre-rep days to today.
> ltminns wrote: »
>
> Also, Omega Rep doesn't require the Implants to buy the Space Weapon Set. The only Rep that has Elite Marks that doesn't.
>
>
>
>
> Not anymore...but before there WAS an Omega Rep you needed those implants to get the sets...it was a lot of them too.
I'm not talking about the Shield/Impulse/Deflector but the Console/Torpedo/Cutting Beam.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'