people tend to be infected with a self-righteous need to try to prevent others from doing things they enjoy.
Pretty much. Its the ever present "True Fans Defending the Faith" shtick. "If you like X, then you are no TRUE fan" situation. And because the current hate target is Discovery, ANYTHING Discovery related is evil and must burn in hell because "TRUE fans hate it for X reason". The convoluted copyright argument with an Indie Developer (That I had never even HEARD of before all this shtako), that had been handled EXREMELY poorly by that guy's lawyers and is clearly a case of parallel development as well as the fact some of the cited things don't even have anything in common with each other, just added fuel to the hater fires. "Oh CBS is being sued over X? CANCEL IT OTHERWISE YOU WILL TOO!"
I'm honestly tired of seeing things like this EVERY time we get any kind of new Star Trek. It all boils down to the fact "Its not the same". EVERY new Trek show has been trashed when it first comes out. Even TNG. With the advent of the Internet... its gotten worse, as these individuals can find like minded people and make their voices LOUDER. And anyone who doesn't agree with them is attacked and labled as "Not a TRUE fan".
[/soapbox]
I'm going to quote TV Tropes take on this:
• Star Trek: Discovery carries on the proud tradition of ‘Ruined Forever!’. A streaming service-exclusive? Ruined. A Cosmetically Advanced Prequel? Ruined. Klingons with different forehead bumps and a different design aesthetic? So ruined. Harry Mudd? DOUBLE RUINED. TRIBBLES? EXTRA RUINATION FOR ALL ETERNITY.
• The Fan Dumb just gets dumber: with Discovery now a hit, CBS is creating more Star Trek series and the popularity of the franchise in general is exploding. Naturally, this is a sure sign of RUINED FOREVER because, essentially, Star Trek is supposed to belong only to its oldest, sourest gate-keepers and no one else.
• Despite this, these same sour gate-keepers declared that the proof that Discovery would RUIN Trek FOREVER is that no one would watch it. Now, the fact that it's a hit just confirms the ruination.
This is so very true. Every iteration for Trek has been different from the last and I remember there being controversy about EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.
The biggest difference right now is that we have an internet full of fan sites and chat rooms where the hatred can breed and be shouted loudest. A lot of echo chambers around, so people who hate something tend to group together and you get a sort of confirmation bias that they simply must be correct.
TOS was the original, but it had limited budgets so looks were pretty limited. However it did push the boat out with some great ideas with having charcters of different race working together, and mixing men and women fairly equally among the crew. It felt like a utopia because it was in such stark contrast to the time it was filmed in.
TMP films added new FX and changed the looks of the Klingons (ZOMG THEY CAN@T CHANGE HOW KLINGONS LOOK!! - some fans probably).
TNG swapped the whole crew and time period and the ship even. It got A LOT of hatred from older fans, but because it was all via letters sent in the post and magazines it was not as out in the open.
DS9 put the show on a space station (ZOMG BUT THEY ARE NEVER GONNA GO EXPLORING ETC!) and i recall plenty of complaints about it in its first season despite a large number of people these days saying it's the best series of Trek.
VOY moved into unknown territory (literally) and got the new crew and ship lost away from all the regular aliens, ships, planets we loved. A lot of people really hated that idea and many still dislike it. But by the later seasons it had some stonking great episodes.
ENT was prequel and yes, yet again there was plenty of hatred of it. The crew chemistry was a bit stunted in S1 but by the time it sadly got canned it was moving along nicely. And it did a fairly good job of trying to tie up some loose ends the other shows had left lying about due to previous shoddy writing.
DSC is no different at all from every other iteration of Trek. It's different but that has always been something that happened. With every new series. The first season has been a bit wonky in places, yeah sure. But again every series of Trek suffered the same fate (S1 TNG is a dammed nightmare in some places)
A a lot of the hatred is just silly and childish, and is only being amplified because the internet culture we live in gives a megaphone to anyone who wants to shout and throw a tantrum. The show is doing fine, it cost them nothing to make S1 as Netflix essentially paid for it all! So they are not exactly in a bad place financially. And announcing extra Trek shows like the shorts, and Picard Mk II is a sure sign the franchise is seen as a good deal right now.
Plus (and i think this is most important for STO) the show makers and the game devs are working together on material. This means that for the first time STO is going to be get fed ideas and plots direct from a currently airing show with a massive budget. This means we'll have access to some amazing stories and concepts, right from the horse's mouth. It should be a great year ahead.
This is so very true. Every iteration for Trek has been different from the last and I remember there being controversy about EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.
The biggest difference right now is that we have an internet full of fan sites and chat rooms where the hatred can breed and be shouted loudest. A lot of echo chambers around, so people who hate something tend to group together and you get a sort of confirmation bias that they simply must be correct.
TOS was the original, but it had limited budgets so looks were pretty limited. However it did push the boat out with some great ideas with having charcters of different race working together, and mixing men and women fairly equally among the crew. It felt like a utopia because it was in such stark contrast to the time it was filmed in.
TMP films added new FX and changed the looks of the Klingons (ZOMG THEY CAN@T CHANGE HOW KLINGONS LOOK!! - some fans probably).
TNG swapped the whole crew and time period and the ship even. It got A LOT of hatred from older fans, but because it was all via letters sent in the post and magazines it was not as out in the open.
DS9 put the show on a space station (ZOMG BUT THEY ARE NEVER GONNA GO EXPLORING ETC!) and i recall plenty of complaints about it in its first season despite a large number of people these days saying it's the best series of Trek.
VOY moved into unknown territory (literally) and got the new crew and ship lost away from all the regular aliens, ships, planets we loved. A lot of people really hated that idea and many still dislike it. But by the later seasons it had some stonking great episodes.
ENT was prequel and yes, yet again there was plenty of hatred of it. The crew chemistry was a bit stunted in S1 but by the time it sadly got canned it was moving along nicely. And it did a fairly good job of trying to tie up some loose ends the other shows had left lying about due to previous shoddy writing.
DSC is no different at all from every other iteration of Trek. It's different but that has always been something that happened. With every new series. The first season has been a bit wonky in places, yeah sure. But again every series of Trek suffered the same fate (S1 TNG is a dammed nightmare in some places)
A a lot of the hatred is just silly and childish, and is only being amplified because the internet culture we live in gives a megaphone to anyone who wants to shout and throw a tantrum. The show is doing fine, it cost them nothing to make S1 as Netflix essentially paid for it all! So they are not exactly in a bad place financially. And announcing extra Trek shows like the shorts, and Picard Mk II is a sure sign the franchise is seen as a good deal right now.
Plus (and i think this is most important for STO) the show makers and the game devs are working together on material. This means that for the first time STO is going to be get fed ideas and plots direct from a currently airing show with a massive budget. This means we'll have access to some amazing stories and concepts, right from the horse's mouth. It should be a great year ahead.
Don't forget about the Kelvin Timeline movies.
"OMG THEY DESTROYED EVERYTHING WE GREW UP WITH!"
And going back to the stupid lawsuit... it feels like a smaller version of Harmony Gold attacking anything Battletech/Mechwarrior. Some of their claims against certain battlemechs were laughable because there is no way in hell an Armored Veritech looks ANYTHING like an Atlas! I'm amazed they aren't trying to sue ANYONE who makes any kind of mecha over the fact they either have two arms and two legs, or just the meer fact they are vehicles with legs in general as if they own the entire concept of giant walking machines!
[/soapbox]
I was playing Battletech when it was new, and FASA absolutely DID use designs from Macross without the slightest attempt at disguising them. I was at a panel where this was explained, FASA had paid for a license to use those designs but it turns out the entity they licensed from wasn't authorized to do it. Harmony Gold's license took precedence and FASA had to stop using those Macross designs. HG was legally in the right.
If you dispute this, I can only imagine that you're only familiar with newer Battletech material and never saw the original infringing designs. Because I was there in the mid-80s and there's absolutely no question that they used Macross mecha designs. It wasn't a matter of "looks like" or "derived from", it was the exact same designs with no changes whatsoever. FASA never denied where they came from, either, they just thought they had a valid license and were mistaken.
The thing is, FASA did have a license to do that from the original companies who made those shows. Harmony Gold claimed that they had sole rights to any use of any of that stuff IN THE US, and after a long tangled court battle they won. It turns out though that in a challenge later on Harmony Gold was proven to have been completely wrong in their assertions and actually FASA did have the rights to use the likenesses in the game.
It all goes back to the same kind of situation that Trek finds itself in now with the rights being split between CBS and Paramount the way they are, and it had an even worse impact on Macross than has on Star Trek so far (of course it was a far worse tangle than only two companies so that makes sense).
HG has always been infantile.
And the tug of war between CBS and Paramount is also infantile.
Personally, I'd love to see another company own Trek, and one that.....you know....respects fanbases, rather than seeing them as a liability. ~shrug~
Agreed.
Big West owns Macross.
Macross World had/has an article illustrating the court case between Big West and Tatsunoko. Tatsunoko lost the rights to everything related to Macross except for the international distribution rights of the original TV series. Even that is currently in dispute. For HG to trademark the name Macross, and claim rights to the original animation done by Studio Nue (as a work for hire for Big West) is criminal. It's known as "squatting" on a trademark or copyright.
They do not have the rights to it, and if Big West (and now Ban Dai/Sunrise owns a share of Macross) every chose to challenge HG, they'd fold like a house of cards in a hurricane.
Fortunately, in less than two years that will all be moot. Harmony Gold will lose it's Macross License in 2021. And it's unlikely that it will be renegotiated/renewed by Big West or Tatsunoko. The fact that HG muddied the waters on the Macross license since the mid-90's has kept anything after Macross Plus/Macross II out of the lucrative North American market for fear of frivilous lawsuits leading to expensive legal battles. It wasn't worth it as far as the Japanese end was concerned. Hopefully, that will all change with the recent legal wrangling and the expiration of the HG rights to anything Macross.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
And going back to the stupid lawsuit... it feels like a smaller version of Harmony Gold attacking anything Battletech/Mechwarrior. Some of their claims against certain battlemechs were laughable because there is no way in hell an Armored Veritech looks ANYTHING like an Atlas! I'm amazed they aren't trying to sue ANYONE who makes any kind of mecha over the fact they either have two arms and two legs, or just the meer fact they are vehicles with legs in general as if they own the entire concept of giant walking machines!
[/soapbox]
I was playing Battletech when it was new, and FASA absolutely DID use designs from Macross without the slightest attempt at disguising them. I was at a panel where this was explained, FASA had paid for a license to use those designs but it turns out the entity they licensed from wasn't authorized to do it. Harmony Gold's license took precedence and FASA had to stop using those Macross designs. HG was legally in the right.
If you dispute this, I can only imagine that you're only familiar with newer Battletech material and never saw the original infringing designs. Because I was there in the mid-80s and there's absolutely no question that they used Macross mecha designs. It wasn't a matter of "looks like" or "derived from", it was the exact same designs with no changes whatsoever. FASA never denied where they came from, either, they just thought they had a valid license and were mistaken.
The thing is, FASA did have a license to do that from the original companies who made those shows. Harmony Gold claimed that they had sole rights to any use of any of that stuff IN THE US, and after a long tangled court battle they won. It turns out though that in a challenge later on Harmony Gold was proven to have been completely wrong in their assertions and actually FASA did have the rights to use the likenesses in the game.
It all goes back to the same kind of situation that Trek finds itself in now with the rights being split between CBS and Paramount the way they are, and it had an even worse impact on Macross than has on Star Trek so far (of course it was a far worse tangle than only two companies so that makes sense).
HG has always been infantile.
And the tug of war between CBS and Paramount is also infantile.
Personally, I'd love to see another company own Trek, and one that.....you know....respects fanbases, rather than seeing them as a liability. ~shrug~
Agreed.
Big West owns Macross.
Macross World had/has an article illustrating the court case between Big West and Tatsunoko. Tatsunoko lost the rights to everything related to Macross except for the international distribution rights of the original TV series. Even that is currently in dispute. For HG to trademark the name Macross, and claim rights to the original animation done by Studio Nue (as a work for hire for Big West) is criminal. It's known as "squatting" on a trademark or copyright.
They do not have the rights to it, and if Big West (and now Ban Dai/Sunrise owns a share of Macross) every chose to challenge HG, they'd fold like a house of cards in a hurricane.
Fortunately, in less than two years that will all be moot. Harmony Gold will lose it's Macross License in 2021. And it's unlikely that it will be renegotiated/renewed by Big West or Tatsunoko. The fact that HG muddied the waters on the Macross license since the mid-90's has kept anything after Macross Plus/Macross II out of the lucrative North American market for fear of frivilous lawsuits leading to expensive legal battles. It wasn't worth it as far as the Japanese end was concerned. Hopefully, that will all change with the recent legal wrangling and the expiration of the HG rights to anything Macross.
This is so very true. Every iteration for Trek has been different from the last and I remember there being controversy about EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.
The biggest difference right now is that we have an internet full of fan sites and chat rooms where the hatred can breed and be shouted loudest. A lot of echo chambers around, so people who hate something tend to group together and you get a sort of confirmation bias that they simply must be correct.
TOS was the original, but it had limited budgets so looks were pretty limited. However it did push the boat out with some great ideas with having charcters of different race working together, and mixing men and women fairly equally among the crew. It felt like a utopia because it was in such stark contrast to the time it was filmed in.
TMP films added new FX and changed the looks of the Klingons (ZOMG THEY CAN@T CHANGE HOW KLINGONS LOOK!! - some fans probably).
TNG swapped the whole crew and time period and the ship even. It got A LOT of hatred from older fans, but because it was all via letters sent in the post and magazines it was not as out in the open.
DS9 put the show on a space station (ZOMG BUT THEY ARE NEVER GONNA GO EXPLORING ETC!) and i recall plenty of complaints about it in its first season despite a large number of people these days saying it's the best series of Trek.
VOY moved into unknown territory (literally) and got the new crew and ship lost away from all the regular aliens, ships, planets we loved. A lot of people really hated that idea and many still dislike it. But by the later seasons it had some stonking great episodes.
ENT was prequel and yes, yet again there was plenty of hatred of it. The crew chemistry was a bit stunted in S1 but by the time it sadly got canned it was moving along nicely. And it did a fairly good job of trying to tie up some loose ends the other shows had left lying about due to previous shoddy writing.
DSC is no different at all from every other iteration of Trek. It's different but that has always been something that happened. With every new series. The first season has been a bit wonky in places, yeah sure. But again every series of Trek suffered the same fate (S1 TNG is a dammed nightmare in some places)
A a lot of the hatred is just silly and childish, and is only being amplified because the internet culture we live in gives a megaphone to anyone who wants to shout and throw a tantrum. The show is doing fine, it cost them nothing to make S1 as Netflix essentially paid for it all! So they are not exactly in a bad place financially. And announcing extra Trek shows like the shorts, and Picard Mk II is a sure sign the franchise is seen as a good deal right now.
Plus (and i think this is most important for STO) the show makers and the game devs are working together on material. This means that for the first time STO is going to be get fed ideas and plots direct from a currently airing show with a massive budget. This means we'll have access to some amazing stories and concepts, right from the horse's mouth. It should be a great year ahead.
Don't forget about the Kelvin Timeline movies.
"OMG THEY DESTROYED EVERYTHING WE GREW UP WITH!"
There will always be people who complain about anything, but most of the problems with Star Trek has been that the core fans (of any age, not just the originals) tend to be sticklers for details, and that includes continuity, and Paramount (actually Hollywood in general) has a culture of contempt for anything seen as old (like Edna Mode turning her nose up at the "hobo suit" she made years ago that Mr. Incredible brought in to be fixed in "The Incredibles) and they all want to make as big a mark of their own on any remakes or continuations. Like Edna, Hollywood does not look back, or rather it almost always looks back in contempt of what it did before and that annoys many core fans.
Personally I liked all of the various Treks in their own way even though the continuity gaffs were extremely annoying at times, and that goes for the little I have seen of Discovery. It is not a bad series at all in a generic kind of sense.
What disappoints me is that CBS, instead of using their own license and a fresh approach to the Cage/TOS era, decided instead to make Discovery under Paramount's license using Bad Robot to come up with a tired cross tread of Kelvin and ENT. This is especially disappointing in that a lot of the factors that made TOS edgy and relevant in the 1960s have come full circle and would have made a serious attempt at updating the Cage/TOS look and socio-politically aware story style as edgy and relevant today as it was back then, but instead of looking at the world for inspiration it looks inward and backward.
A simple visual example is the uniforms especially the female ones. Back in the 1960s the velour uniforms were actually fashionable (well velvet was anyway, though on their budget they had to use velour) and the miniskirt female ones at least were edgy and a sign of modern independence. Miniskirts are not a big deal now, but neither are they the embarrassment they were in the androgynous '80s, and they are currently in fashion again, and so is velvet.
So what did the DSC team come out with? Old '80s style androgynous "power suits" with Nehru collars made with overly stiff fabric that looks like upholstery material and gimmicky plastic appliques as hokey as Bedazzling. Instead of that trainwreck they could have updated the cuts of the tunics and minidresses, darkened the female uniform tights a bit, and gotten something that really looks good today.
At least with the time paradox angle from ENT and the mirror universe they are showing the audience that it is a different timeline (even though they still say that it is prime, though I suppose they might not realize the implications of what they showed) which renders the continuity problems mostly moot. They already have a drama/action format like TOS had rather than the laid-back "space procedural" format used by most of the other series, now I hope that this upcoming season they bring some of the allegory story style back instead of continuing to focus inward so much.
There will always be people who complain about anything, but most of the problems with Star Trek has been that the core fans (of any age, not just the originals) tend to be sticklers for details, and that includes continuity, and Paramount (actually Hollywood in general) has a culture of contempt for anything seen as old (like Edna Mode turning her nose up at the "hobo suit" she made years ago that Mr. Incredible brought in to be fixed in "The Incredibles) and they all want to make as big a mark of their own on any remakes or continuations. Like Edna, Hollywood does not look back, or rather it almost always looks back in contempt of what it did before and that annoys many core fans.
Personally I liked all of the various Treks in their own way even though the continuity gaffs were extremely annoying at times, and that goes for the little I have seen of Discovery. It is not a bad series at all in a generic kind of sense.
What disappoints me is that CBS, instead of using their own license and a fresh approach to the Cage/TOS era, decided instead to make Discovery under Paramount's license using Bad Robot to come up with a tired cross tread of Kelvin and ENT. This is especially disappointing in that a lot of the factors that made TOS edgy and relevant in the 1960s have come full circle and would have made a serious attempt at updating the Cage/TOS look and socio-politically aware story style as edgy and relevant today as it was back then, but instead of looking at the world for inspiration it looks inward and backward.
A simple visual example is the uniforms especially the female ones. Back in the 1960s the velour uniforms were actually fashionable (well velvet was anyway, though on their budget they had to use velour) and the miniskirt female ones at least were edgy and a sign of modern independence. Miniskirts are not a big deal now, but neither are they the embarrassment they were in the androgynous '80s, and they are currently in fashion again, and so is velvet.
So what did the DSC team come out with? Old '80s style androgynous "power suits" with Nehru collars made with overly stiff fabric that looks like upholstery material and gimmicky plastic appliques as hokey as Bedazzling. Instead of that trainwreck they could have updated the cuts of the tunics and minidresses, darkened the female uniform tights a bit, and gotten something that really looks good today.
Honestly, I think that the real "problem" is something a lot of "true fans" don't want to admit. That the people who designed the way Star Trek: Discovery looks are fans of Star Trek and see it as the chance of a lifetime to make Star Trek as cool as they wish it was.
Lot of show runners/writers are as much to blame for alienating their fans because they wanted to push their creative decisions at the expense of their old fan base. Stargate and Star Wars are two that spring to mind. Star gate's writer on social media pretty much openly admitted that they didn't care less what their fan base wanted. He escalated it by saying he didn't need "disgruntled old fans" and "SGU was for a new younger audience".
"Maureen, I find people who write 'I have no axe to grind' are often the ones most likely to grind axes. Taking the time to slam 'SGU' in your review for 'V' is not politically tinged, it's just petty. I really wish you hadn't given up on our show so quickly. I was surprised, considering your past (occasional) support of the franchise. You can't have seen a finished version of 'Darkness' or 'Light' because the weren't even closed to being finished at the time of your review. I don't know what the network sent you.'SGU' seems to be a love it or hate it sort of show. You obviously fall in the latter camp, but fortunately there are enough viewers and reviewers who think 'SGU' is neither boring, poorly plotted, or sexist to keep us on the air long after 'V' is just a letter in the alphabet again."
Following the cancellation after S2
"And the fact that some of the fans that liked SG-1 and Atlantiswere so angry that they have deliberately hurt us, which is unfortunate.” - Brad Wright
It is very ironic that SGU writers openly disregarded their core fanbase in pursuit of non-existent younger one hoping to increase their view ship and get bigger fan following (because 1.7mil fans wasn't enough for them) and when things go south it results in them blaming the old fans for it failing. Because all the problems lie with the old useless fans. Not the creative writers that ignored the theme of their own franchise.
And next we have Rian Johnson who pretty much scarily admits that he always wanted to make his films with opposite extremes. People that absolutely love his film and others that despise it. Well he achieved that goal. Something is wrong when you have the directors and lead writers going out their way to tear the fandom apart for their ego.
Having said all that I like Discovery more than I like the new Star Wars. As everyone knows you can't please everyone. Though I understand why some old fans might not like it. Changing a iconic race for the franchise for example (Klingons) wasn't the smartest move. But at least the new show runner may attempt to change them for S2 to what people have been accustomed to seeing as the other two got fired. I also hope they start making their ships like Klingon designs and not random alien of the week.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Having said all that I like Discovery more than I like the new Star Wars. As everyone knows you can't please everyone. Though I understand why some old fans might not like it. Changing a iconic race for the franchise for example (Klingons) wasn't the smartest move. But at least the new show runner may attempt to change them for S2 to what people have been accustomed to seeing as the other two got fired. I also hope they start making their ships like Klingon designs and not random alien of the week.
I think Mr. Wright's point was that saying "I don't like it" and deciding not to watch is fine. Repeatedly posting on social media about how it's horrible and ruined the franchise forever? That sort of behavior doesn't really make any sense.
Having said all that I like Discovery more than I like the new Star Wars. As everyone knows you can't please everyone. Though I understand why some old fans might not like it. Changing a iconic race for the franchise for example (Klingons) wasn't the smartest move. But at least the new show runner may attempt to change them for S2 to what people have been accustomed to seeing as the other two got fired. I also hope they start making their ships like Klingon designs and not random alien of the week.
I think Mr. Wright's point was that saying "I don't like it" and deciding not to watch is fine. Repeatedly posting on social media about how it's horrible and ruined the franchise forever? That sort of behavior doesn't really make any sense.
Well in this case it mostly did. SGU pretty much guaranteed Stargate series permanent death for being a TV series now. We did get Stargate Origins (which I liked even though it was very low budget while most others didn't) It felt more like the brand with the comedy & alien/using the gate. SGU was too much of departure from the archaeology that made the show interesting and the people you could root for.
I do hope that Stargate does come back. Either a soft reboot or sequel. Still it should follow the archaeology/discovery route. Not the BSG/dark/religion/soap opera route.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Edit: His last quote towards fans seemed to appear as if he wasn't alright with fans not watching his show. He pretty much shows his bitterness and grudgingly blames his fans for ruining his TV show and failure to renew because they didn't watch his show and accept it. It the same thing all over again with Rian Johnson taunting people for not understanding his vision.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Only time will tell. Original BSG was gone for very long time. I never got into the reboot for the very same reason as SGU. They also changed the classic Cylons to speechless CGI drones and the laser/plasma beams to nukes/missiles. To each their own I guess.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Only time will tell. Original BSG was gone for very long time. I never got into the reboot for the very same reason as SGU. They also changed the classic Cylons to speechless CGI drones and the laser/plasma beams to nukes/missiles. To each their own I guess.
Having said all that I like Discovery more than I like the new Star Wars. As everyone knows you can't please everyone. Though I understand why some old fans might not like it. Changing a iconic race for the franchise for example (Klingons) wasn't the smartest move. But at least the new show runner may attempt to change them for S2 to what people have been accustomed to seeing as the other two got fired. I also hope they start making their ships like Klingon designs and not random alien of the week.
I think Mr. Wright's point was that saying "I don't like it" and deciding not to watch is fine. Repeatedly posting on social media about how it's horrible and ruined the franchise forever? That sort of behavior doesn't really make any sense.
Well in this case it mostly did. SGU pretty much guaranteed Stargate series permanent death for being a TV series now. We did get Stargate Origins (which I liked even though it was very low budget while most others didn't) It felt more like the brand with the comedy & alien/using the gate. SGU was too much of departure from the archaeology that made the show interesting and the people you could root for.
I do hope that Stargate does come back. Either a soft reboot or sequel. Still it should follow the archaeology/discovery route. Not the BSG/dark/religion/soap opera route.
I liked it because they were delving into a form of xeno-archaeology that Stargate had only hinted at before. Thor said once that the Ancients were the greatest of the races that were part of that ancient alliance. What did he really mean by that? Sure their tech was good, but was that really the only reason?
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
I wonder if the main reason SGU was so much darker was because they saw the success of BSG and thought they could try and replicate it was SGU.
And like you guys highlighted... it didn't work. While I did like having a new Stargate show, it felt too much like BSG with a Stargate. And they really didn't make the characters likeable or relateable. Literally the only one you care about is Eli. Rush was a jerk who deserved to get punched for all the shtako he pulled all the time, no one really cared about medic girl's relationship to what's his name lieutenant or the fact they go of into a closet for some... downtime, and the Colonel was so-so. He did get some points for punching Rush though.
Overall the CONCEPT of SGU was actually impressive and, frankly, I'd love to see where it would have gone. But the execution was somewhat lacking. Too much grim/dark and interpersonal conflicts in a crew that was never meant for long range exploration than actually exploring and learning more about Destiny herself. Hell... she didn't even use a Hyperdrive! Was it some kind of precursor to Hyperdrive or was it something entirely seperate like Slipstream?
So many questions we may never get an answer to, because the top brass wanted BSG 2.0 rather than stick to the proven successful formula of Stargate. They STARTED getting it in S2 but it was too little, too late. And I have a feeling they knew it.
I wonder if the main reason SGU was so much darker was because they saw the success of BSG and thought they could try and replicate it was SGU.
And like you guys highlighted... it didn't work. While I did like having a new Stargate show, it felt too much like BSG with a Stargate. And they really didn't make the characters likeable or relateable. Literally the only one you care about is Eli. Rush was a jerk who deserved to get punched for all the shtako he pulled all the time, no one really cared about medic girl's relationship to what's his name lieutenant or the fact they go of into a closet for some... downtime, and the Colonel was so-so. He did get some points for punching Rush though.
Overall the CONCEPT of SGU was actually impressive and, frankly, I'd love to see where it would have gone. But the execution was somewhat lacking. Too much grim/dark and interpersonal conflicts in a crew that was never meant for long range exploration than actually exploring and learning more about Destiny herself. Hell... she didn't even use a Hyperdrive! Was it some kind of precursor to Hyperdrive or was it something entirely seperate like Slipstream?
So many questions we may never get an answer to, because the top brass wanted BSG 2.0 rather than stick to the proven successful formula of Stargate. They STARTED getting it in S2 but it was too little, too late. And I have a feeling they knew it.
Yeah, I initially wrote of most of that as the writers trying to define the characters... and it was somewhat less bad later.
As for the tech in the Destiny, the main plot hook is that it's older, less streamlined and polished versions of Ancient tech. It was from the height of their civilization's experimentation phase where they were pushing the boundaries of what was physically possible. Most Ancient tech seen is from later when their civilization was in decline and innovations mostly focused on refining what they had.
As for the tech in the Destiny, the main plot hook is that it's older, less streamlined and polished versions of Ancient tech. It was from the height of their civilization's experimentation phase where they were pushing the boundaries of what was physically possible. Most Ancient tech seen is from later when their civilization was in decline and innovations mostly focused on refining what they had.
Oh I agree big time. It was VERY fasinating seeing the contrast between Destiny and Atlantis. Destiny still relied on directed energy weapons rather than Drones. And the Stargates actually had a range and were nowhere near as durable as even the Milky Way gates. But I can see Destiny shuttles evolving into Puddle Jumpers easily. And in a way, Destiny was also a character in the show with how mysterious she was.
There will always be people who complain about anything, but most of the problems with Star Trek has been that the core fans (of any age, not just the originals) tend to be sticklers for details, and that includes continuity, and Paramount (actually Hollywood in general) has a culture of contempt for anything seen as old (like Edna Mode turning her nose up at the "hobo suit" she made years ago that Mr. Incredible brought in to be fixed in "The Incredibles) and they all want to make as big a mark of their own on any remakes or continuations. Like Edna, Hollywood does not look back, or rather it almost always looks back in contempt of what it did before and that annoys many core fans.
Personally I liked all of the various Treks in their own way even though the continuity gaffs were extremely annoying at times, and that goes for the little I have seen of Discovery. It is not a bad series at all in a generic kind of sense.
What disappoints me is that CBS, instead of using their own license and a fresh approach to the Cage/TOS era, decided instead to make Discovery under Paramount's license using Bad Robot to come up with a tired cross tread of Kelvin and ENT. This is especially disappointing in that a lot of the factors that made TOS edgy and relevant in the 1960s have come full circle and would have made a serious attempt at updating the Cage/TOS look and socio-politically aware story style as edgy and relevant today as it was back then, but instead of looking at the world for inspiration it looks inward and backward.
A simple visual example is the uniforms especially the female ones. Back in the 1960s the velour uniforms were actually fashionable (well velvet was anyway, though on their budget they had to use velour) and the miniskirt female ones at least were edgy and a sign of modern independence. Miniskirts are not a big deal now, but neither are they the embarrassment they were in the androgynous '80s, and they are currently in fashion again, and so is velvet.
So what did the DSC team come out with? Old '80s style androgynous "power suits" with Nehru collars made with overly stiff fabric that looks like upholstery material and gimmicky plastic appliques as hokey as Bedazzling. Instead of that trainwreck they could have updated the cuts of the tunics and minidresses, darkened the female uniform tights a bit, and gotten something that really looks good today.
Honestly, I think that the real "problem" is something a lot of "true fans" don't want to admit. That the people who designed the way Star Trek: Discovery looks are fans of Star Trek and see it as the chance of a lifetime to make Star Trek as cool as they wish it was.
I am sure that is true for some people, there are as many reasons to like or dislike something as there are people once you get down to it. On the other hand the highest-level decisions that form the foundation of Discovery, like the one to go with Paramount's license and Bad Robot, were made by Moonves who intensely dislikes science fiction (and apparently Star Trek especially) and that effectively hogtied the creative process in many ways since they could only legally do something that was 66% Star Trek at most as well as being different from the Kelvin universe in order to keep people from saying it was just a copy of that.
Also, I suspect that part of the problem is that they DID have Star Trek fans on the production team but that most of them who are still active in the industry are probably fans of later versions and they had that image in the back of their heads instead of the Cage/TOS era esthetics, hence the distinctly '80s style of the uniforms and other inward-and-backward-looking details.
Gene Roddenberry talked quite a bit about the TOS esthetics at conventions and in "The Making of Star Trek" book, and it would have been nice to have seen them realized using modern techniques and production values. Starfleet was supposed to blend military and civilian roles and styles and they in turn were designed with an eye towards the crew's comfort and downplaying for the crew the fact that there were stuck in a metal can in space for months on end, which is why it has the flattened command structure, comfortable uniforms, and a ship interior that looked more like an unusual building than a submarine. Except for the command structure Discovery takes the diametrically opposite approach.
How the hell do I pre patch this? It starts but then stops and never finishes. Using the vanilla/TOS(joke!) launcher or do I have to go a different route.
And yikes those Klingon Discovery ships look hideous IMO. You wouldn't even think they were Klingon at first glance. More like random blob of the week alien ship.
You'd almost think they'd originated from a vast interstellar empire fractured by internal political struggles (see. main plot) which probably hasn't resulted in many joint development projects (though you can imagine sharing some designs through shifting alliances and good old fashioned espionage.)
(Standardization in military forces is often influenced by that culture's historical circumstances and it's a sci-fi trope that everything made by a particular culture shares a single iconography, wholly representative of that species (and only that species.) For Starfleet it's an easy projection, it's a single organization with a central power structure. However, that's not what the empire is in DSC.)
I mean its not like they left a standard Klingon ship out of the mix to serve as a very recognizable counterpoint to the disjointed fleet of a disjointed empire which moves the DSC Klingons closer to their state in TOS.
Then why aren't there twelve distinct Klingon ships, representing each Great House?
NO , this is NOT Star Trek !
Are you trying to drive half the playerbase off?! Because that's how you drive half the playerbase off.
Really? Some of us are actually quite excited about this and you certainly don't speak of behalf of "half of the playerbase".
And it IS Star Trek.
Actually, I believe he does speak for a silent half (at least) of the STO player family. TRIBBLE is merely CBS attempt to make PC and SJW version of Trek; Trek cannon be damned! CBS just wants to make money - plain and simple. They claim writers sought to maintain the timeline, then blew it up. Hell, The Orville is closer to actual Trek than this sideshow. And you might say, no CBS isnt just out to make money - but take a look at the two shows AND why hide the show behind a PAY wall? They are just trying to get everyone paying to watch Trek instead of network usage. They know Trek is huge and they just see dollar signs.
And....it IS NOT Trek.
My 2 cents.
Yep ST: D isn't canon - the same way ST: TNG wasn't canon in 1987:
[And we all know now how that turned out];)
Considering that nobody had any clue what direction they were going to take it, let alone how long it would last, of course people were skeptical about it.
Bonanza: The Next Generation was released at the same time. I don't remember if it even lasted a full season.
Then there was The New Munsters, which I think only had a few episodes that aired before it was yanked. It played on just before ST:TNG and Bonanza:TNG on Fox.
Where I lived, Fox liked to play the sports exemption game. The Red Wings are playing! We'll show TNG @ 12 midnight! The Tigers are on! Better show TNG on Thursday! The Lions are doing terrible this year! Let's show that instead and cancel TNG this week! It's hard to get a following with exemptions running amok, in a time when the only way to rewatch TV shows when you want is if you pre-programmed the VCR, and your siblings didn't decide that their show is more important.....
Even if Star Trek was a larger success in the first season, Fox favoured sports over Sci-Fi.
Of course, they tended to change view times/day of the week to show TNG, they really stuck it to Star Trek fans.
I don't know how things are done in different countries, but where I live, I can reliably be able to watch Discovery on Sunday nights on the Space channel. Meanwhile, on Fox, Orville often ran into NFL football, among other games, so it fell out of grace for me. Having a stable air time helps to retain viewership, giving Disco a huge leg up from TNG.
Comments
This is so very true. Every iteration for Trek has been different from the last and I remember there being controversy about EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.
The biggest difference right now is that we have an internet full of fan sites and chat rooms where the hatred can breed and be shouted loudest. A lot of echo chambers around, so people who hate something tend to group together and you get a sort of confirmation bias that they simply must be correct.
TOS was the original, but it had limited budgets so looks were pretty limited. However it did push the boat out with some great ideas with having charcters of different race working together, and mixing men and women fairly equally among the crew. It felt like a utopia because it was in such stark contrast to the time it was filmed in.
TMP films added new FX and changed the looks of the Klingons (ZOMG THEY CAN@T CHANGE HOW KLINGONS LOOK!! - some fans probably).
TNG swapped the whole crew and time period and the ship even. It got A LOT of hatred from older fans, but because it was all via letters sent in the post and magazines it was not as out in the open.
DS9 put the show on a space station (ZOMG BUT THEY ARE NEVER GONNA GO EXPLORING ETC!) and i recall plenty of complaints about it in its first season despite a large number of people these days saying it's the best series of Trek.
VOY moved into unknown territory (literally) and got the new crew and ship lost away from all the regular aliens, ships, planets we loved. A lot of people really hated that idea and many still dislike it. But by the later seasons it had some stonking great episodes.
ENT was prequel and yes, yet again there was plenty of hatred of it. The crew chemistry was a bit stunted in S1 but by the time it sadly got canned it was moving along nicely. And it did a fairly good job of trying to tie up some loose ends the other shows had left lying about due to previous shoddy writing.
DSC is no different at all from every other iteration of Trek. It's different but that has always been something that happened. With every new series. The first season has been a bit wonky in places, yeah sure. But again every series of Trek suffered the same fate (S1 TNG is a dammed nightmare in some places)
A a lot of the hatred is just silly and childish, and is only being amplified because the internet culture we live in gives a megaphone to anyone who wants to shout and throw a tantrum. The show is doing fine, it cost them nothing to make S1 as Netflix essentially paid for it all! So they are not exactly in a bad place financially. And announcing extra Trek shows like the shorts, and Picard Mk II is a sure sign the franchise is seen as a good deal right now.
Plus (and i think this is most important for STO) the show makers and the game devs are working together on material. This means that for the first time STO is going to be get fed ideas and plots direct from a currently airing show with a massive budget. This means we'll have access to some amazing stories and concepts, right from the horse's mouth. It should be a great year ahead.
Don't forget about the Kelvin Timeline movies.
"OMG THEY DESTROYED EVERYTHING WE GREW UP WITH!"
Fortunately, in less than two years that will all be moot. Harmony Gold will lose it's Macross License in 2021. And it's unlikely that it will be renegotiated/renewed by Big West or Tatsunoko. The fact that HG muddied the waters on the Macross license since the mid-90's has kept anything after Macross Plus/Macross II out of the lucrative North American market for fear of frivilous lawsuits leading to expensive legal battles. It wasn't worth it as far as the Japanese end was concerned. Hopefully, that will all change with the recent legal wrangling and the expiration of the HG rights to anything Macross.
That is good news.
There will always be people who complain about anything, but most of the problems with Star Trek has been that the core fans (of any age, not just the originals) tend to be sticklers for details, and that includes continuity, and Paramount (actually Hollywood in general) has a culture of contempt for anything seen as old (like Edna Mode turning her nose up at the "hobo suit" she made years ago that Mr. Incredible brought in to be fixed in "The Incredibles) and they all want to make as big a mark of their own on any remakes or continuations. Like Edna, Hollywood does not look back, or rather it almost always looks back in contempt of what it did before and that annoys many core fans.
Personally I liked all of the various Treks in their own way even though the continuity gaffs were extremely annoying at times, and that goes for the little I have seen of Discovery. It is not a bad series at all in a generic kind of sense.
What disappoints me is that CBS, instead of using their own license and a fresh approach to the Cage/TOS era, decided instead to make Discovery under Paramount's license using Bad Robot to come up with a tired cross tread of Kelvin and ENT. This is especially disappointing in that a lot of the factors that made TOS edgy and relevant in the 1960s have come full circle and would have made a serious attempt at updating the Cage/TOS look and socio-politically aware story style as edgy and relevant today as it was back then, but instead of looking at the world for inspiration it looks inward and backward.
A simple visual example is the uniforms especially the female ones. Back in the 1960s the velour uniforms were actually fashionable (well velvet was anyway, though on their budget they had to use velour) and the miniskirt female ones at least were edgy and a sign of modern independence. Miniskirts are not a big deal now, but neither are they the embarrassment they were in the androgynous '80s, and they are currently in fashion again, and so is velvet.
So what did the DSC team come out with? Old '80s style androgynous "power suits" with Nehru collars made with overly stiff fabric that looks like upholstery material and gimmicky plastic appliques as hokey as Bedazzling. Instead of that trainwreck they could have updated the cuts of the tunics and minidresses, darkened the female uniform tights a bit, and gotten something that really looks good today.
At least with the time paradox angle from ENT and the mirror universe they are showing the audience that it is a different timeline (even though they still say that it is prime, though I suppose they might not realize the implications of what they showed) which renders the continuity problems mostly moot. They already have a drama/action format like TOS had rather than the laid-back "space procedural" format used by most of the other series, now I hope that this upcoming season they bring some of the allegory story style back instead of continuing to focus inward so much.
My character Tsin'xing
"Maureen, I find people who write 'I have no axe to grind' are often the ones most likely to grind axes. Taking the time to slam 'SGU' in your review for 'V' is not politically tinged, it's just petty. I really wish you hadn't given up on our show so quickly. I was surprised, considering your past (occasional) support of the franchise. You can't have seen a finished version of 'Darkness' or 'Light' because the weren't even closed to being finished at the time of your review. I don't know what the network sent you. 'SGU' seems to be a love it or hate it sort of show. You obviously fall in the latter camp, but fortunately there are enough viewers and reviewers who think 'SGU' is neither boring, poorly plotted, or sexist to keep us on the air long after 'V' is just a letter in the alphabet again."
Following the cancellation after S2
"And the fact that some of the fans that liked SG-1 and Atlantis were so angry that they have deliberately hurt us, which is unfortunate.” - Brad Wright
It is very ironic that SGU writers openly disregarded their core fanbase in pursuit of non-existent younger one hoping to increase their view ship and get bigger fan following (because 1.7mil fans wasn't enough for them) and when things go south it results in them blaming the old fans for it failing. Because all the problems lie with the old useless fans. Not the creative writers that ignored the theme of their own franchise.
And next we have Rian Johnson who pretty much scarily admits that he always wanted to make his films with opposite extremes. People that absolutely love his film and others that despise it. Well he achieved that goal. Something is wrong when you have the directors and lead writers going out their way to tear the fandom apart for their ego.
Having said all that I like Discovery more than I like the new Star Wars. As everyone knows you can't please everyone. Though I understand why some old fans might not like it. Changing a iconic race for the franchise for example (Klingons) wasn't the smartest move. But at least the new show runner may attempt to change them for S2 to what people have been accustomed to seeing as the other two got fired. I also hope they start making their ships like Klingon designs and not random alien of the week.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
My character Tsin'xing
Well in this case it mostly did. SGU pretty much guaranteed Stargate series permanent death for being a TV series now. We did get Stargate Origins (which I liked even though it was very low budget while most others didn't) It felt more like the brand with the comedy & alien/using the gate. SGU was too much of departure from the archaeology that made the show interesting and the people you could root for.
I do hope that Stargate does come back. Either a soft reboot or sequel. Still it should follow the archaeology/discovery route. Not the BSG/dark/religion/soap opera route.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Yea, I prefer the original, too.
My character Tsin'xing
And like you guys highlighted... it didn't work. While I did like having a new Stargate show, it felt too much like BSG with a Stargate. And they really didn't make the characters likeable or relateable. Literally the only one you care about is Eli. Rush was a jerk who deserved to get punched for all the shtako he pulled all the time, no one really cared about medic girl's relationship to what's his name lieutenant or the fact they go of into a closet for some... downtime, and the Colonel was so-so. He did get some points for punching Rush though.
Overall the CONCEPT of SGU was actually impressive and, frankly, I'd love to see where it would have gone. But the execution was somewhat lacking. Too much grim/dark and interpersonal conflicts in a crew that was never meant for long range exploration than actually exploring and learning more about Destiny herself. Hell... she didn't even use a Hyperdrive! Was it some kind of precursor to Hyperdrive or was it something entirely seperate like Slipstream?
So many questions we may never get an answer to, because the top brass wanted BSG 2.0 rather than stick to the proven successful formula of Stargate. They STARTED getting it in S2 but it was too little, too late. And I have a feeling they knew it.
As for the tech in the Destiny, the main plot hook is that it's older, less streamlined and polished versions of Ancient tech. It was from the height of their civilization's experimentation phase where they were pushing the boundaries of what was physically possible. Most Ancient tech seen is from later when their civilization was in decline and innovations mostly focused on refining what they had.
My character Tsin'xing
Oh I agree big time. It was VERY fasinating seeing the contrast between Destiny and Atlantis. Destiny still relied on directed energy weapons rather than Drones. And the Stargates actually had a range and were nowhere near as durable as even the Milky Way gates. But I can see Destiny shuttles evolving into Puddle Jumpers easily. And in a way, Destiny was also a character in the show with how mysterious she was.
I am sure that is true for some people, there are as many reasons to like or dislike something as there are people once you get down to it. On the other hand the highest-level decisions that form the foundation of Discovery, like the one to go with Paramount's license and Bad Robot, were made by Moonves who intensely dislikes science fiction (and apparently Star Trek especially) and that effectively hogtied the creative process in many ways since they could only legally do something that was 66% Star Trek at most as well as being different from the Kelvin universe in order to keep people from saying it was just a copy of that.
Also, I suspect that part of the problem is that they DID have Star Trek fans on the production team but that most of them who are still active in the industry are probably fans of later versions and they had that image in the back of their heads instead of the Cage/TOS era esthetics, hence the distinctly '80s style of the uniforms and other inward-and-backward-looking details.
Gene Roddenberry talked quite a bit about the TOS esthetics at conventions and in "The Making of Star Trek" book, and it would have been nice to have seen them realized using modern techniques and production values. Starfleet was supposed to blend military and civilian roles and styles and they in turn were designed with an eye towards the crew's comfort and downplaying for the crew the fact that there were stuck in a metal can in space for months on end, which is why it has the flattened command structure, comfortable uniforms, and a ship interior that looked more like an unusual building than a submarine. Except for the command structure Discovery takes the diametrically opposite approach.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Then why aren't there twelve distinct Klingon ships, representing each Great House?
Just wondering
Considering that nobody had any clue what direction they were going to take it, let alone how long it would last, of course people were skeptical about it.
Bonanza: The Next Generation was released at the same time. I don't remember if it even lasted a full season.
Then there was The New Munsters, which I think only had a few episodes that aired before it was yanked. It played on just before ST:TNG and Bonanza:TNG on Fox.
Where I lived, Fox liked to play the sports exemption game. The Red Wings are playing! We'll show TNG @ 12 midnight! The Tigers are on! Better show TNG on Thursday! The Lions are doing terrible this year! Let's show that instead and cancel TNG this week! It's hard to get a following with exemptions running amok, in a time when the only way to rewatch TV shows when you want is if you pre-programmed the VCR, and your siblings didn't decide that their show is more important.....
Even if Star Trek was a larger success in the first season, Fox favoured sports over Sci-Fi.
Of course, they tended to change view times/day of the week to show TNG, they really stuck it to Star Trek fans.
I don't know how things are done in different countries, but where I live, I can reliably be able to watch Discovery on Sunday nights on the Space channel. Meanwhile, on Fox, Orville often ran into NFL football, among other games, so it fell out of grace for me. Having a stable air time helps to retain viewership, giving Disco a huge leg up from TNG.