The bridging of plot from Tzenkethi skirmishes to (yet another) new space monster was handled well. The space and ground combats ran smoothly and were challenging without being too difficult to be enjoyable (repeatedly). The Odo twist was neat, but like the Data and Kirk reveals it smacks of a lack of involvement by the actors, or permission from CBS to use the characters' likeness or other material. On the down side, running the same feature for four weeks stretched the novelty of this episode pretty thin. Three runs of an episode feels like the sweet spot.
On a greater meta-plot note, it would be nice to see some situations arise that don't regularly devolve into combat or "deus ex machina" plot twists. It feels like the galaxy has constant fighting with little to no investment in exploration, intrigue or puzzle-solving, regardless of faction, and while it's fun to hit another Red Alert and load the torpedoes that isn't the theme or mood of the Star Trek universe IMO.
In any case, thanks for making this episode and I look forward to seeing what happens next. :)
though really cryptic why when face with said enemy is a klingon warrior given only two choices confusion or asking for recommendations, you really couldn't keep your fed baised writing in check for one mission. quite frankly you all should be ashamed of yourselves for that. out of professionalism if nothings else. otherwise it was quite fun.
yeah i love being told i fight like a Klingon hope i die like one when I am a Klingon... very immersion breaking
That line was directed at Tzen-Warum, the Tzenkethi captain, not the player though.
As for the "Fed based writing": while I do see the point, it is entirely possible, that a player may never have heard of the Hur'q and indeed needs said explanation, regardless of character species. It could use slightly different wording, agreed.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
though really cryptic why when face with said enemy is a klingon warrior given only two choices confusion or asking for recommendations, you really couldn't keep your fed baised writing in check for one mission. quite frankly you all should be ashamed of yourselves for that. out of professionalism if nothings else. otherwise it was quite fun.
yeah i love being told i fight like a Klingon hope i die like one when I am a Klingon... very immersion breaking
it isn't you being told that, it's the tzenkethi captain martok fights while you're trying to shut off those 4 consoles
sometimes, the audio doesn't play at the appropriate time
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I enjoyed it, looking forward to where the Hurq and Odo take us. If there was a time to revamp DS9, it's now. Either the Frontier Class Starbase or the Starbase from the movies and TNG.
The fight like a klingon line comes as a timed trigger after the fight starts so unless he was particularly tigger like chances are he's dead well before martok says that line. Same way that the ships outside are timed to die by timer regardless of anything actually alive to do them damage.
Have to say that whole section of the station is as bad as I knew it would be to play on console due to the fact that the corridors are surprisingly small for the size of a tzenkethi and the way martok insists on standing right in front of you no matter how hard you try to stop him.
Great example of scenery folk not working closely with gameplay side of the office to find out how things would actually work rather than simply making them look pretty in the hopes noone will notice the flaws.
On replaying this mission a whole bunch, I have to say that Scylla and Charybdis didn't age as well as other FE's.
The fight against the Hur'Q feels a little protracted after the long battles against the Tzenkethi in the same open environment (and without clear structure or direction both times). Boarding is a nice interlude on the first run, but with the story beats known the actual action is a little too straight forward (narrow halls, tight mobs, only a couple of notable rooms, and no exploration of the environment or optional dialog. ) Neth'Par has a good arc behind the scenes, Kuumaarke drifts off from her poignant role in the beginning (a complimentary partner to the player character, we haven't seen that play so naturally before and I hope we don't lose sight of her character development in the expansion), and the Dominion replay their Deus Ex Machina role from Midnight (it's fun and works in context but with this being the second time I would have looked for another way for the Dominion to arrive.)
Overall I think it lacked some of the subtlety in mission design and story telling we've seen across recent eps (which makes replays more enjoyable, though you may miss it the first time), even though it has some great punches for that first run (Hur'Q reveal and Odo.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
The missing skillpoint box bug has (of course) been carried over to console.
Over all the arc seems to be more fizzle than bang. Loads of threads but more of a net full of half spun ideas than an actual tapestry.
The son'a were brought in as little more than an excuse to get their ships some exposure for that lockbox in the episode where the jem hadar that should have lived got killed off.
The lukari's "cousins" with the obvious betrayal was full of wasted potential that we'll never see what with them having kissed and made up so much that they moved in together but were too caught up in the moment to scan the system they were in.
Geordie turns up and doesn't seem to do much that warrants him being a captain beyond time of service, the nexus episode he spends most of the time getting his head stuck in a doorway and when he does have command of the ship in S&C he limps about doing not very much.
On the other hand martok folows to your character like a horny targ making those on station sections pretty bad from the console play viewpoint.
That whole end section to S&C was more reminiscent of the end of the borg arc (where you have allies but they can't fly the ships at your speed so you either waste time going at 2/3rds impusle or go solo) when instead of a fleet they get a handful of vessels whereas the times earth and q'onos were under attack it was battle fleets warping in to save the day and irritate with cutscenes during combat. Surely bajor being the gateway to the wormhole would warrant more attention.
And of course the tzenkethi who were made out to be warmongering isolationist types intent on exterminating worlds, who then turn tail and run like scalded caitans once the things they're intent on destroying actually turn up.
New things were tried to make combat different but having the hurq glue to your backside was cheesey and making bullet sponges out of all bar the kethi's front was dull.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Nothing about The Dominion's arrival was sudden, or unexpected, as Sela sends you messages throughout the Iconian reputation that tell you she has gone to the Gamma quadrant to get The Dominion's help. Nor did The Dominion's arrival solve a problem, as we were still going to lose the battle with their help, something the NPCs event point out.
*Sigh*
These all apply to both their involvement with the Iconian war and Scylla and Charybdis, and this is the type definition.
Deus ex Machina are solutions to a problem. They are never unexpected developments that make things worse, nor sudden twists that only change the understanding of a story.
Deus ex Machina are sudden or unexpected. This means that even if they are featured, referenced or set-up earlier in the story, they do not change the course of nor appear as a natural or a viable solution to the plotline they eventually "solve".
Deus ex Machina are used to resolve a situation portrayed as unsolvable or hopeless. If the problem could be solved with a bit of common sense or other type of simple intervention, the solution is not a Deus ex Machina no matter how unexpected it may seem.
Deus ex Machina are external to the characters and their choices throughout the story. The solution comes from a character with small or non-existent influence on the plot until that point or random chance from nature or karma.
I was describing the technical fact of their execution, not with any particular malice but to describe a similar story beat playing out twice. Whether you agree with common use of "Deus Ex Machina" is, quite frankly, irrelevant. And if you feel you have to contort logic around each of these four points, to try to maintain your reflexive attempt at contradiction, you can be sure I won't care.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
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The dominion was set up in a very similar way to the iconian empire.
Powerful folk at the top with servitor races created to carry out the orders.
A setup like that would have been a lot harder for an iconian to get into and manipulate if for no other reason that the founders general distrust of anyone solid.
Given that it makes sense that they would either get into a war of annihilation or simply avoid contact as much as possible.
I am pretty certain we haven't seen all of the Hur'q so far, I doubt they will stay at these minor pests. Although an overwhelming number of them can pretty easily be annoying storywise. (That our captains and their ships are by now too far removed from gameplay content and we can beat pretty much anything while digging for oil in our noses is a different matter.) Still, the scripted deaths and messages of our allies were a bit of "show, don't tell", and we don't really see the danger.
It would be nice to have an episode where you really have a battle and your mere survival is always unclear. Unfortunately that is really difficult to pull off for the very varying levels of captains playing this game, so you can only create an illusion. I think "Blood of the Ancient" handled that better in its ground parts than we have here (still not perfect, and in my opinion both episodes are a little too drawn out, but at least BotA didn't have five prolongued battles in exactly the same spot plus 5 seconds full impulse back and forth).
And yes, I agree, the replay fun isn't as high as in other episodes. Until you leave the Tzenkethi station it's pretty normal in that regard, but the Hur'q indeed become more and more aggravating - not really a challenge (though the challenge improves the more you get distracted by not caring that much), and everything about them is kinda "fake difficulty". Sometimes they hide (by accident) in the most unreachable spaces, then they snugglebum you all the way which is kind of a valid strategy from a story perspective but gameplay wise doesn't offer a challenge only an inconvenience. Add to that that we finally have a huge mob of gazillions of enemies, yet they ignore quite a few of the CC abilities which for once would have been useful otherwise ... and all that after the lesson by Martok of what an aggro drawing tank is not supposed to be played like - always move next to the critical point or ally who should be kept safe from the enemies AoE attacks is quite annoying as well, especially since I seem to remember other NPCs behaving way more natural and less hug-needy in other episodes.
All in all I'd change my review to: okay storyline with nice cliffhanger, fun to play a few times, if you happen to be one of the "every item for every toon" guys like me, it is way below average in enjoyability though.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Comments
On a greater meta-plot note, it would be nice to see some situations arise that don't regularly devolve into combat or "deus ex machina" plot twists. It feels like the galaxy has constant fighting with little to no investment in exploration, intrigue or puzzle-solving, regardless of faction, and while it's fun to hit another Red Alert and load the torpedoes that isn't the theme or mood of the Star Trek universe IMO.
In any case, thanks for making this episode and I look forward to seeing what happens next. :)
yeah i love being told i fight like a Klingon hope i die like one when I am a Klingon... very immersion breaking
As for the "Fed based writing": while I do see the point, it is entirely possible, that a player may never have heard of the Hur'q and indeed needs said explanation, regardless of character species. It could use slightly different wording, agreed.
it isn't you being told that, it's the tzenkethi captain martok fights while you're trying to shut off those 4 consoles
sometimes, the audio doesn't play at the appropriate time
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Have to say that whole section of the station is as bad as I knew it would be to play on console due to the fact that the corridors are surprisingly small for the size of a tzenkethi and the way martok insists on standing right in front of you no matter how hard you try to stop him.
Great example of scenery folk not working closely with gameplay side of the office to find out how things would actually work rather than simply making them look pretty in the hopes noone will notice the flaws.
The fight against the Hur'Q feels a little protracted after the long battles against the Tzenkethi in the same open environment (and without clear structure or direction both times). Boarding is a nice interlude on the first run, but with the story beats known the actual action is a little too straight forward (narrow halls, tight mobs, only a couple of notable rooms, and no exploration of the environment or optional dialog. ) Neth'Par has a good arc behind the scenes, Kuumaarke drifts off from her poignant role in the beginning (a complimentary partner to the player character, we haven't seen that play so naturally before and I hope we don't lose sight of her character development in the expansion), and the Dominion replay their Deus Ex Machina role from Midnight (it's fun and works in context but with this being the second time I would have looked for another way for the Dominion to arrive.)
Overall I think it lacked some of the subtlety in mission design and story telling we've seen across recent eps (which makes replays more enjoyable, though you may miss it the first time), even though it has some great punches for that first run (Hur'Q reveal and Odo.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Over all the arc seems to be more fizzle than bang. Loads of threads but more of a net full of half spun ideas than an actual tapestry.
The son'a were brought in as little more than an excuse to get their ships some exposure for that lockbox in the episode where the jem hadar that should have lived got killed off.
The lukari's "cousins" with the obvious betrayal was full of wasted potential that we'll never see what with them having kissed and made up so much that they moved in together but were too caught up in the moment to scan the system they were in.
Geordie turns up and doesn't seem to do much that warrants him being a captain beyond time of service, the nexus episode he spends most of the time getting his head stuck in a doorway and when he does have command of the ship in S&C he limps about doing not very much.
On the other hand martok folows to your character like a horny targ making those on station sections pretty bad from the console play viewpoint.
That whole end section to S&C was more reminiscent of the end of the borg arc (where you have allies but they can't fly the ships at your speed so you either waste time going at 2/3rds impusle or go solo) when instead of a fleet they get a handful of vessels whereas the times earth and q'onos were under attack it was battle fleets warping in to save the day and irritate with cutscenes during combat. Surely bajor being the gateway to the wormhole would warrant more attention.
And of course the tzenkethi who were made out to be warmongering isolationist types intent on exterminating worlds, who then turn tail and run like scalded caitans once the things they're intent on destroying actually turn up.
New things were tried to make combat different but having the hurq glue to your backside was cheesey and making bullet sponges out of all bar the kethi's front was dull.
Nope, it's a fair use.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeusExMachina
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
*Sigh*
These all apply to both their involvement with the Iconian war and Scylla and Charybdis, and this is the type definition.
I was describing the technical fact of their execution, not with any particular malice but to describe a similar story beat playing out twice. Whether you agree with common use of "Deus Ex Machina" is, quite frankly, irrelevant. And if you feel you have to contort logic around each of these four points, to try to maintain your reflexive attempt at contradiction, you can be sure I won't care.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
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Powerful folk at the top with servitor races created to carry out the orders.
A setup like that would have been a lot harder for an iconian to get into and manipulate if for no other reason that the founders general distrust of anyone solid.
Given that it makes sense that they would either get into a war of annihilation or simply avoid contact as much as possible.
It would be nice to have an episode where you really have a battle and your mere survival is always unclear. Unfortunately that is really difficult to pull off for the very varying levels of captains playing this game, so you can only create an illusion. I think "Blood of the Ancient" handled that better in its ground parts than we have here (still not perfect, and in my opinion both episodes are a little too drawn out, but at least BotA didn't have five prolongued battles in exactly the same spot plus 5 seconds full impulse back and forth).
And yes, I agree, the replay fun isn't as high as in other episodes. Until you leave the Tzenkethi station it's pretty normal in that regard, but the Hur'q indeed become more and more aggravating - not really a challenge (though the challenge improves the more you get distracted by not caring that much), and everything about them is kinda "fake difficulty". Sometimes they hide (by accident) in the most unreachable spaces, then they snugglebum you all the way which is kind of a valid strategy from a story perspective but gameplay wise doesn't offer a challenge only an inconvenience. Add to that that we finally have a huge mob of gazillions of enemies, yet they ignore quite a few of the CC abilities which for once would have been useful otherwise ... and all that after the lesson by Martok of what an aggro drawing tank is not supposed to be played like - always move next to the critical point or ally who should be kept safe from the enemies AoE attacks is quite annoying as well, especially since I seem to remember other NPCs behaving way more natural and less hug-needy in other episodes.
All in all I'd change my review to: okay storyline with nice cliffhanger, fun to play a few times, if you happen to be one of the "every item for every toon" guys like me, it is way below average in enjoyability though.