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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    Okay, I saw the show.

    The Klink, what can I say?! When I first saw a close-up of those flaring nostrils, in the opening scenes, I thought I was looking at a close-up from King Kong or something. :) They're ridiculous: somewhat of a weird cross between a TNG Klingon and a Xindi (armor-wise too).

    Also, I really liked the Captain: a mature (Chinese?) character, a good actress, and a plausible Captain. Then she died. Sigh. And now we're stuck with a perky pretty face. I feel nothing for her; in fact, she only irritates me. And the mutiny?! Over the top and severely out of character for a Star Fleet officer. You don't just assault the Captain like that, simply because you don't agree -- especially not in (what was de facto) a volatile first-contact type of situation.

    And what, pretty-face just killed a Klingon warrior like that?! I don't think so.

    Special effects were good, though. And I liked they have a android onboard (Navigation?). I liked the female Navigation lady too. Will see more (I have a subscription to Netflix already, so it won't cost me anything extra).
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    @patrickngo: Everything you said about Burnham's actions is true.

    HOWEVER: This is Star Trek. The protagonist faction of the franchise has always been big on second chances. Possibly to a fault, but the point is, Star Trek has never been written as straight military science fiction the way you and I write our fan fiction.

    Because, unfortunately, BURNHAM WAS RIGHT.


    A military command structure isn't based on 'being right.' What a mess that would yield, LOL. :) Burnham's actions were absurd for a First Officer in her position, done for no greater reason than to have some sort of rambunctious Kirk repeat.
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    hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,758 Arc User
    If Burnham was right about the Klingons, and that firing on them would change things, then she was making a decision to sacrifice her career for the lives of the crew.
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    patrickngo wrote: »
    dude, what she did? gets you thrown in prison with no parole if you even survive it. It's only through the magick of handwavium and plot armor on a truly unrealistic scale, that anyone would be able to come back from that. (or a regression to the 1860's in the Union Army.)


    ^^ 100% Agreed! They already sabotaged their own credibility: there's no way she'll be able to extricate herself from this, in a plausible way, let alone be declared fit for the duty for which she has demonstrated unswerving inability, the command of a starship.
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    ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User
    A real face-off with a Klingon would not have gone anything remotely close to this....
    Define "real."

    Klingon decloaks behind you, fires some torps and disruptors. You blow up and the Klingons toast their epic victory with made up battle stories. :D

    But a Klingon ship sitting there doing nothing and waiting for reinforcements before attacking ONE ship?!?! Yeah, that's a 'real' Klingon.
    But who is the arbiter for determining what a "real" Klingon attack is? Truth be told, both episodes were fantastic. They're definitely on the right track here.

    Well if you think they were fantastic, then that leaves you out of judging anything! o:)
    To borrow an overused phrase, they are literally Making Star Trek Great Again. This is by far the best first two episodes of any Star Trek series ever.

    How much did CBS pay you?
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Okay, I saw the show.

    The Klink, what can I say?! When I first saw a close-up of those flaring nostrils, in the opening scenes, I thought I was looking at a close-up from King Kong or something. :) They're ridiculous: somewhat of a weird cross between a TNG Klingon and a Xindi (armor-wise too).

    Also, I really liked the Captain: a mature (Chinese?) character, a good actress, and a plausible Captain. Then she died. Sigh. And now we're stuck with a perky pretty face. I feel nothing for her; in fact, she only irritates me. And the mutiny?! Over the top and severely out of character for a Star Fleet officer. You don't just assault the Captain like that, simply because you don't agree -- especially not in (what was de facto) a volatile first-contact type of situation.

    And what, pretty-face just killed a Klingon warrior like that?! I don't think so.

    Special effects were good, though. And I liked they have a android onboard (Navigation?). I liked the female Navigation lady too. Will see more (I have a subscription to Netflix already, so it won't cost me anything extra).

    tbh, those Klingorks are barely capable of moving, so she'd at least have a chance.


    Yeah, that's the 'Xindi Reptillian' armor. :)
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    Because, unfortunately, BURNHAM WAS RIGHT. The Klingons came out looking for a fight. Consider they had just crossed into Federation territory, fired on a Federation installation, and attacked a Starfleet officer without provocation who was just trying to figure out what the frell was going on. That's an act of war by any standard.

    So, they give her a chance to redeem herself, no less than they gave Tom Paris, who had been convicted of domestic terrorism if you'll recall.

    1) NO SHE WAS NOT. Had she had her way, they would all be dead without doing Mary Sue to anime fanfic obscene level. I mean the amount in here is obscene already. It would have been genre breaking to have her attack the klingons and have any of them come out alive.

    2) Tom Paris was a civilian when he did his crime...not an officer. There is a difference between the two. Do you think Calvin Harris and Eddington will get a second chance at command after what they did? NO...nor should they. It is world breaking to have something that stupid and illogical happen. Basically, the level of stupid in the first episode is world breaking. CBS should have spent the lens flare budget to hire a skilled writer...or one that at least graduated from elementry school. Children tell stories with less logical errors than this.


    ^^ Also 100% Agreed.
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    starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    textex is stupid
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
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    shadowkoshshadowkosh Member Posts: 1,688 Arc User
    I don’t see TRIBBLE lasting more than a season
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    starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    Because, unfortunately, BURNHAM WAS RIGHT. The Klingons came out looking for a fight. Consider they had just crossed into Federation territory, fired on a Federation installation, and attacked a Starfleet officer without provocation who was just trying to figure out what the frell was going on. That's an act of war by any standard.

    So, they give her a chance to redeem herself, no less than they gave Tom Paris, who had been convicted of domestic terrorism if you'll recall.

    1) NO SHE WAS NOT. Had she had her way, they would all be dead without doing Mary Sue to anime fanfic obscene level. I mean the amount in here is obscene already. It would have been genre breaking to have her attack the klingons and have any of them come out alive.

    2) Tom Paris was a civilian when he did his crime...not an officer. There is a difference between the two. Do you think Calvin Harris and Eddington will get a second chance at command after what they did? NO...nor should they. It is world breaking to have something that stupid and illogical happen. Basically, the level of stupid in the first episode is world breaking. CBS should have spent the lens flare budget to hire a skilled writer...or one that at least graduated from elementry school. Children tell stories with less logical errors than this.

    1) I MEANT that she was correct in her reading of the situation, not in committing mutiny, you dense idiot.

    2) He bloody well was an officer (or officer candidate at least) when he did what got him kicked out of the Academy, namely, concealing evidence of his own pilot error that got a fellow cadet killed.

    And by the way, that goes back to what I said earlier about Starfleet not following the same rules as any real-life military service would. For example, if Paris had done what he did while attending the Air Force Academy or West Point, he'd have been sent to prison long before he ever ended up with the Maquis: by my count, he triggered UCMJ Articles 107, 111, and 133 at minimum.

    According to the review in The Atlantic, what ends up happening to Burnham in part two:
    After the battle is resolved, she's court-martialed and convicted of mutiny and eats the big chicken dinner. It's only then that Captain Lorca, aboard whose ship she's being held prisoner, intervenes. And no, he wouldn't be allowed to in a real military, but again, it's not a real military.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    1) NO SHE WAS NOT. Had she had her way, they would all be dead without doing Mary Sue to anime fanfic obscene level. I mean the amount in here is obscene already. It would have been genre breaking to have her attack the klingons and have any of them come out alive.

    2) Tom Paris was a civilian when he did his crime...not an officer. There is a difference between the two. Do you think Calvin Harris and Eddington will get a second chance at command after what they did? NO...nor should they. It is world breaking to have something that stupid and illogical happen. Basically, the level of stupid in the first episode is world breaking. CBS should have spent the lens flare budget to hire a skilled writer...or one that at least graduated from elementry school. Children tell stories with less logical errors than this.

    I agree. There was NO way firing on the Klingons was in any way a winnable situation.
    We will never know, because they didn't fire first. We know that a single photon torpedo blew through the neck of the ship, but maybe that was because it didn't have shields at that point to protect itself. However, even if they had lost the fight, if the "Vulcan Hello" really works in changing the Klingon attitude overall, even losing their ship would potentially have a good outcome in the long term. (Even though she definitely wanted to do it for the short-term).

    Fact is, in the end they did basically nothing of what Micheal wanted (they don't fire the first shot, they don't capture the Klingon leader), and they lost the battle, and they got the Klingons to start a war with the Federation.

    But the point ultimately is - she was probably in the wrong, but we can understand why she did what she did, and we can see that she will have to redeem herself. She isn't the perfect exemplary hero Starfleet Officer that succeeded at everythnig he or she did. She's off with a bad start, and that's the whole point in the story.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    2) He bloody well was an officer (or officer candidate at least) when he did what got him kicked out of the Academy, namely, concealing evidence of his own pilot error that got a fellow cadet killed.

    And by the way, that goes back to what I said earlier about Starfleet not following the same rules as any real-life military service would. For example, if Paris had done what he did while attending the Air Force Academy or West Point, he'd have been sent to prison long before he ever ended up with the Maquis: by my count, he triggered UCMJ Articles 107, 111, and 133 at minimum.
    Yeah, going to academy means you're in the military, not a civilian. Tom got locked up for being a Maquis, but he became a Maquis because of his poor choices earlier.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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    silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    @patrickngo: Everything you said about Burnham's actions is true.

    HOWEVER: This is Star Trek. The protagonist faction of the franchise has always been big on second chances. Possibly to a fault, but the point is, Star Trek has never been written as straight military science fiction the way you and I write our fan fiction.

    Because, unfortunately, BURNHAM WAS RIGHT. The Klingons came out looking for a fight. Consider they had just crossed into Federation territory, fired on a Federation installation, and attacked a Starfleet officer without provocation who was just trying to figure out what the frell was going on. That's an act of war by any standard.

    So, they give her a chance to redeem herself, no less than they gave Tom Paris, who had been convicted of domestic terrorism if you'll recall.

    excuse, but Tom Paris was kicked out of the academy before he became involved in the Maquis, and was a kid. He was not a serving senior officer with an established career.

    effectively, he'd been a civilian when he did his crimes. Burnham doesn't have that excuse, and she doesn't have the excuses of youth or inexperience.
    starswordc wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    Because, unfortunately, BURNHAM WAS RIGHT. The Klingons came out looking for a fight. Consider they had just crossed into Federation territory, fired on a Federation installation, and attacked a Starfleet officer without provocation who was just trying to figure out what the frell was going on. That's an act of war by any standard.

    So, they give her a chance to redeem herself, no less than they gave Tom Paris, who had been convicted of domestic terrorism if you'll recall.

    1) NO SHE WAS NOT. Had she had her way, they would all be dead without doing Mary Sue to anime fanfic obscene level. I mean the amount in here is obscene already. It would have been genre breaking to have her attack the klingons and have any of them come out alive.

    2) Tom Paris was a civilian when he did his crime...not an officer. There is a difference between the two. Do you think Calvin Harris and Eddington will get a second chance at command after what they did? NO...nor should they. It is world breaking to have something that stupid and illogical happen. Basically, the level of stupid in the first episode is world breaking. CBS should have spent the lens flare budget to hire a skilled writer...or one that at least graduated from elementry school. Children tell stories with less logical errors than this.

    1) I MEANT that she was correct in her reading of the situation, not in committing mutiny, you dense idiot.

    2) He bloody well was an officer (or officer candidate at least) when he did what got him kicked out of the Academy, namely, concealing evidence of his own pilot error that got a fellow cadet killed.

    And by the way, that goes back to what I said earlier about Starfleet not following the same rules as any real-life military service would. For example, if Paris had done what he did while attending the Air Force Academy or West Point, he'd have been sent to prison long before he ever ended up with the Maquis: by my count, he triggered UCMJ Articles 107, 111, and 133 at minimum.

    According to the review in The Atlantic, what ends up happening to Burnham in part two:
    After the battle is resolved, she's court-martialed and convicted of mutiny and eats the big chicken dinner. It's only then that Captain Lorca, aboard whose ship she's being held prisoner, intervenes. And no, he wouldn't be allowed to in a real military, but again, it's not a real military.

    Y'all're confusing Tom Paris with Nick Locarno... Locarno was expelled from the academy. Paris graduated, and was was assigned to Caldek Prime (sp?)(as the ship's doctor said he was a surgeon at the hospital there are the same time Paris was stationed there) Paris made some kind of error in piloting, which cost people there lives, and he tried to cover it up, rather than accepting the blame. That got him discharged from Starfleet, and he then fell in with the Maquis. So yes, he was indeed a civilian when he got captured, but he was also a commissioned officer, not an expelled cadet. (Of course, they originally wanted him to be playing Nick Locarno, but didn't want to pay rights to that character's creator, so came up with a near identical one instead ;) )
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    It wasn't a character rights issue. It's that they changed their mind about how much they liked Locarno as a person and decided that Locarno's character flaws were too deep for them to want to try making him seem like a good person.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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    silverlobes#2676 silverlobes Member Posts: 1,953 Arc User
    It wasn't a character rights issue. It's that they changed their mind about how much they liked Locarno as a person and decided that Locarno's character flaws were too deep for them to want to try making him seem like a good person.
    I know that that's the official story, that Locarno was considered irredeemable, but I'm sure I've read that rights to the character was also part of the decision :sunglasses: Either way, they were confusing the two characters, and thinking that Paris' history was the same as Locarno's :sunglasses:
    "I fight for the Users!" - Tron

    "I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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    ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    I actually really enjoyed DSC's premiere. The characters seemed well-written, the story interesting, and it was probably the most ambitious series premiere of any Star Trek show. Almost every complaint I've heard about DSC based on the trailers has failed to bare out (so far). Even the aesthetics aren't that divergent. They're definitely not more like Kelvin than TOS.

    So, based on the series premiere, I'm optimistic about how this show is gonna go. That being said, would I pay £4/month for a streaming service just for this show? I may be a Trekkie, but I'm not fiscally stupid - I'm on a student's budget! CBS may have been just a tincy bit arrogant making DSC their only notable new show on All-Access. Hopefully viewership in International markets through Netflix, etc will make up for it for a second season.

    As for 'SJW bull****', in the entire premiere, Michael's first name came up exactly never, and Voq's skin tone was used more to make a point of T'Kuvma's convictions regarding honour and Klingon purity. I personally hope the explore the genetic crisis among the Klingons in future episodes, but I understand why it wasn't included here (it wasn't relevant). In fact, the most notable thing about Burnham's character origins thus far is that she's a human raised by Vulcans. While CBS's marketing team was about us subtle about the diversity as a comically oversized mallet, the characters themselves are tasteful - that is, not hitting you over the head with how diverse they are.

    (SPOILERS)

    Also, hurray, a Starfleet Officer violated regulations and actually got punished for it! I know it's not going to last, but still! Burnham not only got court-martialed, she got sentenced to life imprisonment! Kirk got a slap on the wrist and a medal!
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    It wasn't a character rights issue. It's that they changed their mind about how much they liked Locarno as a person and decided that Locarno's character flaws were too deep for them to want to try making him seem like a good person.
    I know that that's the official story, that Locarno was considered irredeemable, but I'm sure I've read that rights to the character was also part of the decision :sunglasses: Either way, they were confusing the two characters, and thinking that Paris' history was the same as Locarno's :sunglasses:
    The only difference was the level of negligence. Locarno did something he knew was reckless and stupid, and didn't really regret it.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    Even the aesthetics aren't that divergent. They're definitely not more like Kelvin than TOS.

    I agree mostly with your other points but this one just isn't true. The hand phaser and communicator were consistant with TOS aesthetics... and that's about it. The bridge, displays, work stations, space suit, uniforms, technology (Holo-communication, window instead of screen...) looked much more like the Kelvin timeline. It looked like an evolution of the USS Franklin from Star Trek Beyond, not like TOS.
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    1) Once again...no, she really did not. At least if her goal was survival and not kill more klingons. She fires on their ship. They fire back. EVERYONE dies. It's not JUST the mutiny that is the issue. The whole thing bloody made no sense. Either she was a blood thirsty psycho who wanted to murder klingons and damn her life and the life of her crewmates or she literally is the most stupid person on that ship. Either way, she should not be anywhere near command EVER again after that showing.

    I'm going for 'literally is the most stupid person on that ship.'

    As I said, that encounter was de facto a first-contact type of situation. She knows as good as absolutely nothing about the Klingons, let alone enough to warrant her fool-hearted mutiny. She wouldn't even have had cause to consult with Sarek: it was simply not her call (and portraying the Vulcans as a 'shoot first, ask questions later' race was questionable to begin with: that's what started the whole Minbari war).
    2) No, Tom was kicked out for what he did as a cadet. He was in jail for what he did AFTER that. He was most definately a citizen when he commited the crime that landed him in jail. As you are fond of saying, they ain't the real military. So they did not jail him for misconduct as a cadet, just kicked him out. THEN he got in trouble with the law. But the thing is...mutiny is a different issue. Even if there is a starfleet law that says she can serve again, it makes no logical sense that ANYONE would work with her after that. I mean you think if Eddington came back to star fleet and they gave him his old rank back via some starfleet law that he would be able to do his old job still? No, nobody would trust him with ANYTHING. Even if they Mary Sue it so she keeps her job, it makes no logical sense. NONE. It literally breaks the world because it becomes completely unbelievable. You are a writer, you are seriously okay with this?!? Really?!?

    Personally, I wouldn't want her on my ship any more, ever, in whatever capacity. She's immature, disloyal, and ready to betray everything Star Fleet stands for at the very first sign of disagreement, making her wholly unqualified to serve in any kind of command chain. She can't be trusted, not even a little. Doesn't matter whether she thought she was right; in fact, it's completely irrelevant: everyone always thinks they're right (if not, they'd be thinking something else).
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    ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Well, now have seen both episodes, count me as one who very much enjoyed it. I don't think it was perfect, and my 'concern' that the story would over-emphasise Burnham was justified.

    I do agree with the criticism that others are directing at the Burnham character, although as @mustrumridcully0 stated:
    She isn't the perfect exemplary hero Starfleet Officer that succeeded at everythnig he or she did. She's off with a bad start, and that's the whole point in the story.

    This actually makes a refreshing change. Trek has almost always presented us with a crew of the ‘best and brightest’ – officers who excel at everything, almost never put a foot wrong, rarely make bad choices (and when they do the consequences are almost never catastrophic) and almost always have the answer to everything.
    And that isn’t what we’re getting here – we’re getting a conflicted, flawed, imperfect person. Someone who makes mistakes and, hopefully, learns from them. I, personally, like that and hope they build on it – sadly, I can also see that this characterisation probably conflicts with the view of some so-called Trekkies’ personal interpretations of what they think Trek should be.

    This I can agree with. I'm holding judgement on Burnham's characterisation until we see her interact with the real main cast (Siru had better be on it!). I think it could work so long as she's balanced against another more *ahem* 'balanced' personality, although we may see her more unbalanced personality in the premiere mellow as the show goes on. She has just been imprisoned for mutiny, assault of a superior, etc.
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    ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    ryan218 wrote: »
    Even the aesthetics aren't that divergent. They're definitely not more like Kelvin than TOS.

    I agree mostly with your other points but this one just isn't true. The hand phaser and communicator were consistant with TOS aesthetics... and that's about it. The bridge, displays, work stations, space suit, uniforms, technology (Holo-communication, window instead of screen...) looked much more like the Kelvin timeline. It looked like an evolution of the USS Franklin from Star Trek Beyond, not like TOS.

    What I meant was the ship aesthetic with the majority of Kelvin: USS Franklin is a compromise as a Kelvin movie ship from prior to the timeline divergence (I.e. Canon Prime), so it sorta makes sense. I will agree that it's not all TOS styling, it looks less advanced (which makes sense as Shanzhou is stated to be an old ship), although that only works so long given a lot of the ships in the battle had a similar look. But, no breweries, no metal supports for purely gratuitous reasons, no ridiculous-working brigs, no blue nacelles, not 'Pimp my Enterprise' nacelles... All of the features which are, too me at least, crucial to the Kelvin aesthetic are absent in DSC.
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    This I can agree with. I'm holding judgement on Burnham's characterisation until we see her interact with the real main cast (Siru had better be on it!). I think it could work so long as she's balanced against another more *ahem* 'balanced' personality, although we may see her more unbalanced personality in the premiere mellow as the show goes on. She has just been imprisoned for mutiny, assault of a superior, etc.


    The fact that she'll be allowed to 'go on' is what puts a very serious dent into the show's entire credibility. These aren't extraordinary circumstances (like her being the only one in command out there on the rim or something, like a young Kirk). She's simply a bimbette, that stupidly got herself court-marshalled, and should normally never be heard of ever again.

    Apparently, later on, a Captain on the ship where she's held prisoner will free her, give her a command position again, and everyone will be okay with that (including HIS superior officer). And that's just plain silly.
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    legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,280 Arc User
    lorca himself is supposed to be a very TRIBBLE-up character, and possibly the entire crew of the discovery might be a crew of TRIBBLE-ups and misfits...so burnham managing to land a position there when literally no other ship in starfleet or even civilian services will take her wouldn't be that surprising

    kind of like the crew chekov and tuvok assembled in the renegades fan production​​
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