If time has no meaning in the Nexus, then Kirk could have spend thousands or even millions of years in the Nexus while having died on that planet. Someone from the 24th Century encountering Kirk in the Nexus is just as likely as someone from the 29th or 41st Century encountering Kirk in the Nexus.
Rather clearly documented by the writer(s) of the film the whole meaning of Guinan and her "echo" in the Nexus. She never said "Once you're here, you're always here." She explains her presence as an "echo" and tells Picard how he can leave and go to any place, any time.
Second, leaving the Nexus permanently is what gives the story gravitas. If you are always there once you are in - regardless if you leave or not - then defeating Soran becomes meaningless. Kirk's death becomes meaningless if he didn't leave the Nexus permanently.
but...it WAS meaningless. Everything after Picard went in? was all in his mind. he never left. Therefore Kirk never left. The Nexus reacts to the mental state of it's victims, creating a seamless illusion.
consider what that means.
Picard didn't meet Kirk, he met Kirk's 'nexus clone' and Kirk was exactly how he'd pictured him.
It's like the Matrix, get it? a completely convincing illusion.
That is... unsupported by anything other than your opinion.
> @mirrorchaos said: > valoreah wrote: » > > mirrorchaos wrote: » > > the biggest problem would be explaining the age of Kirk which drove my initial thoughts. I can only see an alternate timeline playing out or potentially the Nexus, where it pulled Kirk's life force into it up on death and he still lives there without his body in complete paradise. > > > > > No part of Kirk is in the Nexus anymore. He left. Guinan was there by virtue of a transporter accident. > > > > > We don't know that for certain. What we know is that Kirk died and not a lot more and we know even less on the mechanics of the nexus or how it works.
Agreed, Guinine left the Nexus behind and left part of herself in it too like an imprint, Kirk would have too. Remember the Nexus transtime, if you were ever in it you've always been in it.
> mirrorchaos said:
> valoreah wrote: »
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> mirrorchaos wrote: »
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> the biggest problem would be explaining the age of Kirk which drove my initial thoughts. I can only see an alternate timeline playing out or potentially the Nexus, where it pulled Kirk's life force into it up on death and he still lives there without his body in complete paradise.
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> No part of Kirk is in the Nexus anymore. He left. Guinan was there by virtue of a transporter accident.
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> We don't know that for certain. What we know is that Kirk died and not a lot more and we know even less on the mechanics of the nexus or how it works.
Agreed, Guinine left the Nexus behind and left part of herself in it too like an imprint, Kirk would have too. Remember the Nexus transtime, if you were ever in it you've always been in it.
So how do we know that an imprint is left in there when someone leaves the Nexus? It is more likely that everyone that left the Nexus is still within the Nexus since time has no meaning in the Nexus. So someone from 200,000 years ago or 200,000 years from now could meet Kirk in the Nexus, but they would not be able to pull him out of the Nexus due to already exiting in the 24th Century.
If time has no meaning in the Nexus, then Kirk could have spend thousands or even millions of years in the Nexus while having died on that planet. Someone from the 24th Century encountering Kirk in the Nexus is just as likely as someone from the 29th or 41st Century encountering Kirk in the Nexus.
If that were true, then the emotional impact of Kirk's sacrifice and death in the story loses all meaning - not to mention the tragic death of Picard's brother and nephew.
Picards brother and nephew had no connection to the nexus, so that remains as is, but the death of Kirk? we just don't know how it works mechanically, how it could yank the spirit of someone who supposedly left the Nexus altogether and bring it back.
We still don't know if what we saw in Insurrection and Nemesis were even real events and not something conjured up in Picard's mind as his form of enjoyment within the Nexus. i hate these type of tropes, if someone is locked in a virtual reality suite and they are "released" but not knowing it is still a simulation with no way of knowing if it is true or not and they think it's real then it loses all meaning wondering about the dominion war with sisko, they could still be locked up in those dominion devices on the founders homeworld and the war never happened in the real world but in the devices it did happen.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I always thought that Generations started out decently, but lost all its steam once Picard entered the Nexus... After that it felt like there was no consequence for failure. Plus it felt weird that Picard could so easily abandon his fantasy world. It strikes me that his fantasy world should have been having a family aboard ship... that way both his desires to be an explorer and to have a family would have been satisfied. The fact that they did a hasty reshoot of the entire ending sequence tells you all you need to know about storyline cohesion. Although I do prefer the idea from the directors commentary about Kirk flying off with Picard in his arms.
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That redesign of the USS Discovery addresses so many of the problems I have with the actual show model. Looking at it from almost any angle feels much more Star Trek than what they wound up using. Sadly this is what happens when a franchise is owned by people who don't actually like it. You wind up with them constantly trying to reinvent the wheel.
I got the opposite feel from the Nexus stuff. When he left it was like "If you fail, there will be no hope of victory". The only way he'd be able to try again was if he and Kirk somehow reentered the Nexus.
Comments
https://imgur.com/a/PD0ci
My character Tsin'xing
> valoreah wrote: »
>
> mirrorchaos wrote: »
>
> the biggest problem would be explaining the age of Kirk which drove my initial thoughts. I can only see an alternate timeline playing out or potentially the Nexus, where it pulled Kirk's life force into it up on death and he still lives there without his body in complete paradise.
>
>
>
>
> No part of Kirk is in the Nexus anymore. He left. Guinan was there by virtue of a transporter accident.
>
>
>
>
> We don't know that for certain. What we know is that Kirk died and not a lot more and we know even less on the mechanics of the nexus or how it works.
Agreed, Guinine left the Nexus behind and left part of herself in it too like an imprint, Kirk would have too. Remember the Nexus transtime, if you were ever in it you've always been in it.
So how do we know that an imprint is left in there when someone leaves the Nexus? It is more likely that everyone that left the Nexus is still within the Nexus since time has no meaning in the Nexus. So someone from 200,000 years ago or 200,000 years from now could meet Kirk in the Nexus, but they would not be able to pull him out of the Nexus due to already exiting in the 24th Century.
Picards brother and nephew had no connection to the nexus, so that remains as is, but the death of Kirk? we just don't know how it works mechanically, how it could yank the spirit of someone who supposedly left the Nexus altogether and bring it back.
We still don't know if what we saw in Insurrection and Nemesis were even real events and not something conjured up in Picard's mind as his form of enjoyment within the Nexus. i hate these type of tropes, if someone is locked in a virtual reality suite and they are "released" but not knowing it is still a simulation with no way of knowing if it is true or not and they think it's real then it loses all meaning wondering about the dominion war with sisko, they could still be locked up in those dominion devices on the founders homeworld and the war never happened in the real world but in the devices it did happen.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I'd have liked that look, personally.
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That redesign of the USS Discovery addresses so many of the problems I have with the actual show model. Looking at it from almost any angle feels much more Star Trek than what they wound up using. Sadly this is what happens when a franchise is owned by people who don't actually like it. You wind up with them constantly trying to reinvent the wheel.
My character Tsin'xing