What does Prime Universe even mean? With the amount of time travel in Star Trek, the Prime Universe shown in the first few episodes of TOS is not the same as the Prime Universe shown in Nemesis. Add some major temporal event before the early 23rd Century and Discovery is set in the "Prime Universe", but isn't a prequel of TOS. Just like what Star Trek 2009 did, but without using the cop out of somehow the Prime Universe was not affected by a major temporal event that should have erased it from existence.
Fair point. In principle, the "prime timeline" is TOS to FC - every element of timetravel in the shows up to that point "fixed" themselves. First Contact though led to ENT and that fundamentally changed canon up to this point, namely the whole Borg spiel which can only be explained by ludicrous mental gymnastics that don't make much sense. Everything following FC was now part of a new timeline, essentially. FC and ENT rewrote the majority of TOS established events up to that point.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Why are people so desperately invested in the aesthetic of a fifty-year-old TV show that barely lasted three seasons, that it can never be updated ever? Why is it so important that the bridge of a starship plying the spaceways some two hundred and fifty years hence look more primitive than your living room?
It's been stated repeatedly, since day one, that this show is Prime timeline - that, like ENT before it, it's part of the history underlying TOS. Sure, the bridge of the Shenzhou (the only set we've seen so far) looks more advanced than that poor 1960s-vintage ship. Just think of the old aesthetic as being the best the technology of the era could do at showing the real advanced tech of the 23rd century, and quit grasping at nonexistent straws and insisting we're all being lied to, would you please?
Why did ENT,DS9, and TNG recreate those outdated looks to tell more stories in that era? Why does DrWho faithfully acknowledge their past 50 years flawlessly. Did they retconn their past Doctors? Change the dashboards in universe and say the old ones never existed? By your same logic Rogue One is also doing something wrong.
Also, why not just follow a new scifi, with new universe, new setting, new lore, new everything and not tied down by pesky things like canon.
Speaking of which, any new(dont have to be 2016+ but generslly considered modern) scifi serie(no matter medium) that arent dark shithole dystopia evil governemnt/coporation/neibourgh/alloftheabove? Something that show a better future? I dont really follow scifi that much now specisly i dont hsve much time.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Why are people so desperately invested in the aesthetic of a fifty-year-old TV show that barely lasted three seasons, that it can never be updated ever? Why is it so important that the bridge of a starship plying the spaceways some two hundred and fifty years hence look more primitive than your living room?
It's been stated repeatedly, since day one, that this show is Prime timeline - that, like ENT before it, it's part of the history underlying TOS. Sure, the bridge of the Shenzhou (the only set we've seen so far) looks more advanced than that poor 1960s-vintage ship. Just think of the old aesthetic as being the best the technology of the era could do at showing the real advanced tech of the 23rd century, and quit grasping at nonexistent straws and insisting we're all being lied to, would you please?
The 'why', is not your business to question, nor demand a justification from others for. That They Are invested in that, is all you need to know and accept. I don't expect (or particularly care) why your favorite meal is your favorite meal. If you say you like a meal, that's all the explanation needed.
Telling someone that something Is Something JUST BECAUSE I SAY SO (when it's clearly not) is not going to get positive results. In fact, it's going to have the exact reverse, because most folk reject cognitive dissonance.
To mince a line from Goodfellas, 'noodles in ketchup' is not 'spaghetti in maranara sauce'.
That's what is happening with Discovery: They are SAYING that it's Prime, but that doesn't honestly make it so (without hitting the correct thematic notes to qualify as what it is claimed to be) it just means that that is WHAT THEY SAY (and quite frankly, they will say ANYTHING to snag a subscribing customer)
If they'd just had the stones to create their own new series, there'd be none of this BS, and people would just be excited about the pew pew and blowing up ships, but, (as I've said countless times before) they had to try and ride the coattails of the Star Trek franchise to get an audience for the flagship of their streaming service. They put themselves in this situation, and chose to ignore the implications of just doing whatever, so they deserve every valid bit of critique and pushback they receive.
As A Show, it might indeed be great! I read last night that Burnham is actually Amanda's daughter, yes, that Amanda, wife of Sarek, mother of Spock! What a blast out of left field that is as a concept, but come on, this is nothing more than hauling a corpse around, and pretending Bernie's still alive...
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Last time spock gained an previously unknown sibling Sybok happened... mets just hope this would be Marcus Kirk and not Sybok.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
"When are people going to stop acting like the constantly changing, internally inconsistent, mishmash of writer fiats know as "canon" is somehow special & deserving of being "respected"?"
Yeah, at some point you have to stop caring about minutia. It's kinda hilarious in the context of Dragon Ball though. Akira Toriyama's (the series creator) stance on canon is that everything officially licensed is canon.... just not necessarily the same timeline. Not that he feels the need to try to make it a coherent whole.
Doctor Who has "respect" for fifty years of continuity, but this doesn't? Really? Because I've seen the control room of the TARDIS, from the First Doctor to the Twelfth, and it's been updated frequently. Each Doctor has a distinct sonic screwdriver (which in some cases we can only tell is a sonic screwdriver because of the way it's wielded), the cast is in constant flux (even the main protagonist!), the Cybermen are from Earth's twin planet Mondas, except that they're from a parallel universe, except that they originated on a ship in close orbit of a black hole...
Okay, guys, with that I'm out of here. You just want an excuse to believe that the Holy Writ of Saint Gene Roddenberry (much of which is in fact the Holy Writ of Saint Gene Coon, but we can't give another person credit either, can we?) is being corrupted by these heathen heretics. I'm not a member of the Church of Trek, just a Trekkie since TOS was on the air, so it doesn't matter that much to me. Enjoy your echo chamber.
Claiming that Discovery is set in the Prime Universe could be a simple legal trick. That way CBS can use the overall design language from the new ST movies but doesn't have to get Paramount's permission to use it (and doesn't have to pay for the privilege).
Viacom owns both companies so I can't see why any legal tricks would be needed at this point.
What does Prime Universe even mean? With the amount of time travel in Star Trek, the Prime Universe shown in the first few episodes of TOS is not the same as the Prime Universe shown in Nemesis. Add some major temporal event before the early 23rd Century and Discovery is set in the "Prime Universe", but isn't a prequel of TOS. Just like what Star Trek 2009 did, but without using the cop out of somehow the Prime Universe was not affected by a major temporal event that should have erased it from existence.
I never bought the whole "the Kelvin Incident" changed the Prime timeline thing. Waaay too many differences to account for 1 OP Romulan mining vessel roaming around for 25yrs. Just say 'alternate universe' and everyone's happy. Trek has no problem with alternate universes. TOS did it with goatee Spock afterall.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,696Community Moderator
I never bought the whole "the Kelvin Incident" changed the Prime timeline thing. Waaay too many differences to account for 1 OP Romulan mining vessel roaming around for 25yrs. Just say 'alternate universe' and everyone's happy. Trek has no problem with alternate universes. TOS did it with goatee Spock afterall.
It was never said that the Kelvin Incident changed the Prime timeline at all. In fact... it is made QUITE OBVIOUSLY clear by Spock and Uhura in the 09 movie that it IS an Alternate Reality. Also the fact that Old Spock does not have memories of the loss of Vulcan or any events portrayed in the KT Movies ALSO says that it had no impact on the Prime Universe whatsoever. Otherwise he would have synced with the new timeline just as shown in the Voyager episode Year of Hell.
The attack on the Kelvin was a branching point which basically functions as thus.
Was the Kelvin attacked?
No > Kirk born in Iowa > Kirk less rebellious due to influence of father > Vulcan not destroyed by Nero > Established events in Prime Universe
Yes > Kirk born in deep space > Kirk more rebellious due to lack of influence of father > Vulcan destroyed by Nero > new chain of events forming the core of the new Kelvin Timeline.
Everything leading UP to 2233 happened in both realities. Everything after that diverges based on the simple yes/no split.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
and install seatbelts and crash protection on the bridges?
you know they actually did that at the end of nemesis? at least on the captain's chair...why they didn't include that in the final cut, i have no idea
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,696Community Moderator
Well... we also saw deployed restraints on the USS Enterprise in Into Darkness when Enterprise was going down in Earth's Atmosphere.
Honestly though I don't like the name they used for Escape Pods in Beyond. They're frickin' Escape Pods. Why call them Kelvin Pods? Because the loss of the Kelvin influenced them to develop Escape Pods?
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,696Community Moderator
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Well... we also saw deployed restraints on the USS Enterprise in Into Darkness when Enterprise was going down in Earth's Atmosphere.
Honestly though I don't like the name they used for Escape Pods in Beyond. They're frickin' Escape Pods. Why call them Kelvin Pods? Because the loss of the Kelvin influenced them to develop Escape Pods?
I can even go further then that with one of the TOS films. I believe it was ST5 Final Frontier the arm rests on at least Kirks chair fold in over his thighs making a sort of Lap belt restraint. Why on Earth did TNG have critical bridge stations on that stupid arc with no seats? Having stood long six hour watches at the helm of a warship in real life a seat goes a longway to countering distraction from your legs getting tired standing in one spot. I have also stood very 6 hour long topside watches standing on my feet and it gets old real fast. FYI I am a Navy Veteran.
Well... we also saw deployed restraints on the USS Enterprise in Into Darkness when Enterprise was going down in Earth's Atmosphere.
Honestly though I don't like the name they used for Escape Pods in Beyond. They're frickin' Escape Pods. Why call them Kelvin Pods? Because the loss of the Kelvin influenced them to develop Escape Pods?
I can even go further then that with on eof the TOS films. I believe it was ST4 Final Frontier the arm rests on at least Kirks chair fold in over his thighs making a sort of Lap belt restraint.
Well... we also saw deployed restraints on the USS Enterprise in Into Darkness when Enterprise was going down in Earth's Atmosphere.
Honestly though I don't like the name they used for Escape Pods in Beyond. They're frickin' Escape Pods. Why call them Kelvin Pods? Because the loss of the Kelvin influenced them to develop Escape Pods?
I can even go further then that with on eof the TOS films. I believe it was ST4 Final Frontier the arm rests on at least Kirks chair fold in over his thighs making a sort of Lap belt restraint.
Started with TMP in the wormhole scene.
Thank you I couldn't recall off the top of my head which one it was.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,696Community Moderator
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
What does Prime Universe even mean? With the amount of time travel in Star Trek, the Prime Universe shown in the first few episodes of TOS is not the same as the Prime Universe shown in Nemesis. Add some major temporal event before the early 23rd Century and Discovery is set in the "Prime Universe", but isn't a prequel of TOS. Just like what Star Trek 2009 did, but without using the cop out of somehow the Prime Universe was not affected by a major temporal event that should have erased it from existence.
I never bought the whole "the Kelvin Incident" changed the Prime timeline thing. Waaay too many differences to account for 1 OP Romulan mining vessel roaming around for 25yrs. Just say 'alternate universe' and everyone's happy. Trek has no problem with alternate universes. TOS did it with goatee Spock afterall.
Which is why I always call it the Kelvin Universe and not the Kelvin Timeline. Star Trek had always dealt with time travel with we have to fix some mistake or stop some enemy in the past or our present will be destroyed. The City at the Edge of Forever and First Contact are the more popular examples of this. Both have their present destroyed while the crew of the Enterprise is somehow protected from the temporal changes and they have to go back in time to save their present.
Star Trek 2009 comes around and old Spock seems to have given up or not care about restoring his present. If the Kelvin Universe is a parallel universe, then Spock's actions make perfect sense since it doesn't matter what happens in a parallel universe.
Telling someone that something Is Something JUST BECAUSE I SAY SO (when it's clearly not) is not going to get positive results. In fact, it's going to have the exact reverse, because most folk reject cognitive dissonance....
That's what is happening with Discovery: They are SAYING that it's Prime, but that doesn't honestly make it so (without hitting the correct thematic notes to qualify as what it is claimed to be) it just means that that is WHAT THEY SAY (and quite frankly, they will say ANYTHING to snag a subscribing customer)
This is not the case for everyone. CBS owns the Star Trek IP. If they say that Discovery is prime-timeline, than to me it is. This is really no different than when TNG first aired. Quite a few people bemoaned that as "not Star Trek" too. Here were are celebrating the 30th anniversary of it.
Again, most people reject cognitive dissonance, and to repeat the example, being served noodles in ketchup, is not being served spaghetti in maranara sauce, despite what the restaurant Says it is
If they'd just had the stones to create their own new series, there'd be none of this BS, and people would just be excited about the pew pew and blowing up ships, but, (as I've said countless times before) they had to try and ride the coattails of the Star Trek franchise to get an audience for the flagship of their streaming service....
CBS did have the stones to create a new series and there are quite a lot of people excited and looking forward to seeing it.
But they haven't had the stones to create a new series as their streaming service's flagship show, they had to ride the Trek franchise's coat-tails. It's 'outside-but-pressed-right-up-against-the-box' thinking, not having the stones to do something really innovative, which could have also attracted an audience on its own merits.
And sure, some people might be looking forward to it: To each his own, but that doesn't negate the very legitimate critiques and observations which have been levelled thus far, and which I won't waste time repeating.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Comments
Fair point. In principle, the "prime timeline" is TOS to FC - every element of timetravel in the shows up to that point "fixed" themselves. First Contact though led to ENT and that fundamentally changed canon up to this point, namely the whole Borg spiel which can only be explained by ludicrous mental gymnastics that don't make much sense. Everything following FC was now part of a new timeline, essentially. FC and ENT rewrote the majority of TOS established events up to that point.
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Why did ENT,DS9, and TNG recreate those outdated looks to tell more stories in that era? Why does DrWho faithfully acknowledge their past 50 years flawlessly. Did they retconn their past Doctors? Change the dashboards in universe and say the old ones never existed? By your same logic Rogue One is also doing something wrong.
original join date 2010
Member: Team Trekyards. Visit Trekyards today!
Speaking of which, any new(dont have to be 2016+ but generslly considered modern) scifi serie(no matter medium) that arent dark shithole dystopia evil governemnt/coporation/neibourgh/alloftheabove? Something that show a better future? I dont really follow scifi that much now specisly i dont hsve much time.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Telling someone that something Is Something JUST BECAUSE I SAY SO (when it's clearly not) is not going to get positive results. In fact, it's going to have the exact reverse, because most folk reject cognitive dissonance.
To mince a line from Goodfellas, 'noodles in ketchup' is not 'spaghetti in maranara sauce'.
That's what is happening with Discovery: They are SAYING that it's Prime, but that doesn't honestly make it so (without hitting the correct thematic notes to qualify as what it is claimed to be) it just means that that is WHAT THEY SAY (and quite frankly, they will say ANYTHING to snag a subscribing customer)
If they'd just had the stones to create their own new series, there'd be none of this BS, and people would just be excited about the pew pew and blowing up ships, but, (as I've said countless times before) they had to try and ride the coattails of the Star Trek franchise to get an audience for the flagship of their streaming service. They put themselves in this situation, and chose to ignore the implications of just doing whatever, so they deserve every valid bit of critique and pushback they receive.
As A Show, it might indeed be great! I read last night that Burnham is actually Amanda's daughter, yes, that Amanda, wife of Sarek, mother of Spock! What a blast out of left field that is as a concept, but come on, this is nothing more than hauling a corpse around, and pretending Bernie's still alive...
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
My character Tsin'xing
Okay, guys, with that I'm out of here. You just want an excuse to believe that the Holy Writ of Saint Gene Roddenberry (much of which is in fact the Holy Writ of Saint Gene Coon, but we can't give another person credit either, can we?) is being corrupted by these heathen heretics. I'm not a member of the Church of Trek, just a Trekkie since TOS was on the air, so it doesn't matter that much to me. Enjoy your echo chamber.
Viacom owns both companies so I can't see why any legal tricks would be needed at this point.
I never bought the whole "the Kelvin Incident" changed the Prime timeline thing. Waaay too many differences to account for 1 OP Romulan mining vessel roaming around for 25yrs. Just say 'alternate universe' and everyone's happy. Trek has no problem with alternate universes. TOS did it with goatee Spock afterall.
I was going to point out the sunglasses...
It was never said that the Kelvin Incident changed the Prime timeline at all. In fact... it is made QUITE OBVIOUSLY clear by Spock and Uhura in the 09 movie that it IS an Alternate Reality. Also the fact that Old Spock does not have memories of the loss of Vulcan or any events portrayed in the KT Movies ALSO says that it had no impact on the Prime Universe whatsoever. Otherwise he would have synced with the new timeline just as shown in the Voyager episode Year of Hell.
In case anyone forgot or decided to ignore it...
The attack on the Kelvin was a branching point which basically functions as thus.
Was the Kelvin attacked?
Everything leading UP to 2233 happened in both realities. Everything after that diverges based on the simple yes/no split.
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colored text = mod mode
you know they actually did that at the end of nemesis? at least on the captain's chair...why they didn't include that in the final cut, i have no idea
nah, space patrol delta - and the CinC can be a giant blue anthro jackal
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Beause inertia dampers?!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Honestly though I don't like the name they used for Escape Pods in Beyond. They're frickin' Escape Pods. Why call them Kelvin Pods? Because the loss of the Kelvin influenced them to develop Escape Pods?
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Kelvin_pod
Say again?
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Started with TMP in the wormhole scene.
original join date 2010
Member: Team Trekyards. Visit Trekyards today!
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Which is why I always call it the Kelvin Universe and not the Kelvin Timeline. Star Trek had always dealt with time travel with we have to fix some mistake or stop some enemy in the past or our present will be destroyed. The City at the Edge of Forever and First Contact are the more popular examples of this. Both have their present destroyed while the crew of the Enterprise is somehow protected from the temporal changes and they have to go back in time to save their present.
Star Trek 2009 comes around and old Spock seems to have given up or not care about restoring his present. If the Kelvin Universe is a parallel universe, then Spock's actions make perfect sense since it doesn't matter what happens in a parallel universe.
and i look at The Orville
and the orville is going to be the best new star trek show this year.
But they haven't had the stones to create a new series as their streaming service's flagship show, they had to ride the Trek franchise's coat-tails. It's 'outside-but-pressed-right-up-against-the-box' thinking, not having the stones to do something really innovative, which could have also attracted an audience on its own merits.
And sure, some people might be looking forward to it: To each his own, but that doesn't negate the very legitimate critiques and observations which have been levelled thus far, and which I won't waste time repeating.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth