Kemo had it coming. The "nerf" itself wasn't that heavy. It was simply compounded due to how broken the skill was:
Kemo would activate even if you did not activate the skills. If you had Kemo 1,2 and 3 in your tac slots, all of them would activate even if you did not click on them.
When you activate kemo, it will proc twice, on top of the activation of all other slotted kemo abilities.
Fixing those two contributed to the largest chunk of decreased performance from kemo. Of course they nerfed it on top of that, but it is still rather good today.
The point still stands though. Kemo is a lock-box exclusive boff skill, and they still fixed/nerfed it.
Kemo had it coming. The "nerf" itself wasn't that heavy. It was simply compounded due to how broken the skill was:
Kemo would activate even if you did not activate the skills. If you had Kemo 1,2 and 3 in your tac slots, all of them would activate even if you did not click on them.
When you activate kemo, it will proc twice, on top of the activation of all other slotted kemo abilities.
Fixing those two contributed to the largest chunk of decreased performance from kemo. Of course they nerfed it on top of that, but it is still rather good today.
The point still stands though. Kemo is a lock-box exclusive boff skill, and they still fixed/nerfed it.
I'm with e30ernest here: something wich is clearly broken, and gets fixed, I don't necessarily call that a nerf. Like those Research Lab consoles, that just kept on stacking CrtH, indefinitely. That only lasted for a few days, fortunately (DPS ppl properly reported it, btw, upon wich Bort then not just corrected the error, but nerfed it a little extra, for spite; but I digress).
The new UI que system is not a improvement.. as soon as it was implemented advanced and elite ques dropped dramatically.. I don't mind having the tabs.. but its having to switch difficulty every time I go in to the UI.. just to see if anyone is in que.. Ground based elite missions that used to pop all the time now can have 30 to 45 mins wait times in off hours I've waited in que for over 2 hours... the only real change between pre and post patch is the UI system.. as doing the missions is just as easy as it was before.
They should of left the old system where it showed all the difficulties on the same page and just added the tabs.. and remove the need to switch the difficulty every time you open the UI for the LFG system.
That's such a broad-stroke statement, that without context, it's effectively meaningless. I'd certainly agree that everyone playing the game has the same Potential for opportunity; in so much as anyone has the opportunity to learn to do what anyone else does. But when players are pointing out that they can't even get a hit in in queues because someone with a DPS MegaBuild has cleaned the map, then no, they clearly don't have a fair opportunity. And players are definitely pointing that out, so it's hardly a baseless complaint. Perhaps that's why the devs came up with the PPS idea.
There is absolutely nothing stopping a low DPS player from investing the time and effort into researching, practicing and acquiring the necessary skills/gear in order to become a higher DPS player.
Theoretically... In reality, someone may not have the schedule flexibility to invest that time (assuming that they have the inclination to do so any) They may not have the financial resources to allow them to buy The Good Stuffz off the exchange or Lobi (and if their playing-time is limited, then that means they also don't have the time to grind for Zen)
So while that might might make for a nice PR soundbite, the reality is very much dependant on the individual's circumstances and/or inclinations. Someone may only ever want to be a casual player, without taking things further. Someone may want to become a higher DPS player, but lack the resources or schedule flexibility to do so. That the possible opportunity exists, is irrelevant if someone happens to lack the capacity to make use of it
It's far easier to complain than it is to improve.
Just as it's easier to dismiss a problem, rather than actually fixing it, which acknowledging the problem, would then necessitate
Also, the PPS system applies to Competitive Queues, not standard PvE queues.
That explains that then. According to comments I've seen on the topic, chalk it up to another good idea the devs had, which wasn't properly implemented. If PPS was to apply to all PvE queues, it would certainly save the issue of Casuals v DPSers, would it not? But, that would also require there to be enough people engaging with the queues for them to populate, and if comments are to be believed, queue population is not only not good, but the devs knew that population wasn't good even before releasing the UI (because people were noting about how on Tribble, the UI wasn't showing how many people were actually (not) waiting to play the game)
Like I said a few pages back, if PvE queues have to be a mix of Casuals/DPSers (because there's no balance in players loaded, and not enough players queuing for the system to be selective) then the AFK ban system needs to be removed: If someone finds themself in a pug where they can't participate, because someone else is vaping the targets, then they need to be able to kick back for the remainder of the run, without fear of being registered AFK by the system, or reported thus, by another player.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
There is always going to be a performance gap between a brand new player and a 7 year vet. It does not take much for anyone to bring their ship up to snuff in terms of being able to contribute.
Point I was getting at was, even if Cryptic were to nerf everyone to the point where all ships/gear/stats/etc. were exactly the same for every player, there would still be someone better at the game because they are faster and/or more experienced, so crying for everyone to get nerfed to be "equal" results in nothing.
Absolutely true.
'Nerfing' things is never the path toward parity in player skill, it should only be used in cases when items are simply not functioning as the developer intended. It's especially difficult to create a sense of parity in an MMO since you have such a broad spectrum of player types. You have players that spend most of their day playing the game, researching builds, grinding resources, etc. And you also have the casual player that hops on occasionally, uses whatever gear they happen to find and takes a very relaxed approach to the game.
Fixing broken items is one thing, but massive changes in the interest of somehow equalizing skill level has always been a logical fallacy. There was a huge gap before the changes and that same gap is still present today.
Nerfing things isn't about getting player skill parity. It's about making the gap in skills smaller. Having a system where the top player and bottom player has a difference of something like 10000% is definately a system issue. And between average and good was something like 500%. Now, that difference is cut in half roughly. That's a much better state for the game...but it still terrible. The game actually still needs more nerfs.
It's only an issue because those players are all aiming for the same content. If there was proper range of difficulty and proper incentives to play content of appropriate difficulty instead of curbstomping CCA/ISA as fast as you can, it wouldn't be an issue.
Theoretically... In reality, someone may not have the schedule flexibility to invest that time (assuming that they have the inclination to do so any) They may not have the financial resources to allow them to buy The Good Stuffz off the exchange or Lobi (and if their playing-time is limited, then that means they also don't have the time to grind for Zen)
So while that might might make for a nice PR soundbite, the reality is very much dependant on the individual's circumstances and/or inclinations. Someone may only ever want to be a casual player, without taking things further. Someone may want to become a higher DPS player, but lack the resources or schedule flexibility to do so. That the possible opportunity exists, is irrelevant if someone happens to lack the capacity to make use of it
This is entirely irrelevant. If you do not have the time to invest to improve, that is on the player not the game. If the player does not have the financial resources to buy something outright, again that is on the player and not the game. Furthermore, STO has perhaps the most generous F2P system on the market. You do not need real money to buy the top tier items in the game if you are willing to invest the time and effort to get them. If you want to be a casual player, that is fine too, but you must accept the consequences that come with that decision. If you want what those better than you have, work for it and earn it, just as they did.
It absolutely is on the player, not the game. But the player's circumstances have unavoidable impacts. Consider this scenario:
ParentPlayer1 works a good 9-5, and has two kids and a dog. They may technically have the money to buy what they want, but they know that they have to keep money aside for the kids and dog's vet bills, or when the microwave unexpectedly blows up, or the car needs a new set of tyres. So they actually don't have the disposable to spend on The Good Stuffz. But that's okay, you say, because they can just do the grind and earn it all that way! When? They're likely occupied with Family Needs till at least 8 PM. They presumably want to spend time with their SO, and need to be in bed at a reasonable time, to get a good night's sleep, before work the next day. That gives between 2-3 hours potential playing time (realistically, more like 1-2 hours)
They just want to log in, do a mission, and Blow Stuff Up. They aren't going to want to spend that time going between a dozen alts to grind resources which they can't buy with cashmoney.
So they're effectively stuck in the situation of a very slow climb, if they even bother to climb, and just enjoy the game at their level. Suppose they enter a Red Alert, happen to catch one with a High DPS MegaBuild, and get a 2 hour AFK. Sure, it gives them time to do some grinding, but it also means their Red Alert runs are done for the day. If they know that could happen each day, what's their incentive to keep logging in and crawling up that climb of improvement? They would have none.
Personally, I've got all the time in the world to grind (just no PC to use at the moment) and always willing to improve my build and skills, but at the end of the day, I have no desire to chase High DPS and start fapping over parse results. I'm willing to put in the grind, if for no other reason, than I don't want to catch AFK bans, because that impacts my resource collection.
Just as it's easier to dismiss a problem, rather than actually fixing it, which acknowledging the problem, would then necessitate
On the contrary, no one is dismissing there is an issue. Sure, there are people who are far superior in build that outperform the average casual player in a PUG. The difference is you are asking for the quick and easy fix to bring everyone down to your level, rather than investing the time and energy into improving yourself to be more competitive.
There is plenty of denial that there is an issue. Just look back over the past few pages.
You seem to be thinking (or trying to create the narrative) that this is about me, rather than statements being made about the state of the game itself.
I'm not saying that anything needs to be brought down to my level. I'm not saying that I'm unwilling to improve (I solicited advice, and appreciate the responses given) I was saying, that there needs to be more done with the PPS system, so people are playing against or with, players of equal level. I see coldnapalm feels that the game needs more nerfs, but I notice you aren't trying to pick a fight with him about it. I find that telling.
That explains that then. According to comments I've seen on the topic, chalk it up to another good idea the devs had, which wasn't properly implemented. If PPS was to apply to all PvE queues, it would certainly save the issue of Casuals v DPSers, would it not? But, that would also require there to be enough people engaging with the queues for them to populate, and if comments are to be believed, queue population is not only not good, but the devs knew that population wasn't good even before releasing the UI (because people were noting about how on Tribble, the UI wasn't showing how many people were actually (not) waiting to play the game)
Like I said a few pages back, if PvE queues have to be a mix of Casuals/DPSers (because there's no balance in players loaded, and not enough players queuing for the system to be selective) then the AFK ban system needs to be removed: If someone finds themself in a pug where they can't participate, because someone else is vaping the targets, then they need to be able to kick back for the remainder of the run, without fear of being registered AFK by the system, or reported thus, by another player.
I disagree the AFK system needs to be removed. People should put in a little effort to improve themselves. Zero Dev time required.
And as I illustrated, someone Might Not Have the time to put in that effort. They Might Not Have the cashmoney to buy The Good Stuffz, so your assertion is fundamentally flawed. You base your presumption on the premise that just because The Game offers the same opportunities to all, that all players are equally capable of utilizing those opportunities. That simply is not the case.
No matter how much someone may wish to do so, putting their head underwater and inhaling, is not going to teach them to breathe underwater
Implementing the PPS system across the board for all queues and all Red Alerts, solves the issue outright, because everyone is then playing with people of equal capacity to themself.
But then we're back to the issue of queue population, and how many people are joining queues. I know there are some like azrael, who are claiming that they've never seen any delay in queues, so they say everything is fine. But that's a massively blinkered view, focussing solely on one's own viewpoint, and refusing to accept additional external facts. I've never eaten dog meat or horse meat, but that doesn't mean that the practices don't occur. Just as many players, if not more, are discussing delays in queues loading, which can only be accounted to lower player numbers. These population numbers may possibly due to the summer event, possibly due to other factors, but they are still clearly having an impact on queue load times.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Oi! If you kids don't stop, I swear, I will turn this thread around and NO ONE will be getting ice cream.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Whatever imaginary scenario you come up with, the onus is still always on the player to live with the consequences of their decisions. Again, if a person makes the conscious decision to spend their free time on other (and in your example IMO much more important) things and not on improving themselves in a video game, that is on them. If a person wants to set the goal of improving themselves in a game, then they need to what they have to in order to reach that goal. It is unrealistic for that player to expect to be on the same level as someone who can devote more time and resources toward improving their game.
What you are essentially saying is people should be rewarded in game because they work hard, have families, bills to pay etc. That's not how life works. If something is important to you, you go out and work for it and earn it.
Noo, I'm not saying that people should be rewarded in-game Because Reasons. I'm saying, that everyone should be able to log on, and deal with content and scenarios at Their Level, so they don't have to encounter others of different levels, other than by deliberate intention, such as personal challenges. For example, the one time someone happened to challenge me to a PvP match, they were in some big Klingon ship (I don't know which it was) I was using my polaron turret build, and I cleaned their clock three times in a matter of minutes. I cancelled the match, because there was no entertainment, nor honor, in fighting an opponent who couldn't even get my shields below 50%. The polaron build doesn't work by overwhelming an opponent, it works by underwhelming them. It drains their systems and shuts them down that way. Same way the Breen destroyed Sisko's Pimp hand.
As you so rightly said, it is unrealistic for that player to expect to be on the same level as someone who can devote more time and resources toward improving their game. So accordingly, they simply shouldn't be put in the situation where they come up against that higher-tiered player.
It was not my intent to call you out individually, nor am I trying to pick a fight with you. My apologies if my wording comes across that way. I was speaking in more general terms that the cries for nerfs to bring people to the same level will not ever work.
Accepted.
The critical pieces you are neglecting is personal choice and the consequences of those choices. People choose to spend their free time however they want. What does a player want and what is more important to them? Is spending time with family and paying bills on time more important or is spending time playing STO and spending money on C-Store items more important? Personally, I go with the former because that is what is important to me. Does that mean I expect to be as good as my fleetmates who spend 10 hours a day playing? Of course not. Does the opportunity exist in-game for me to obtain every ship/piece of gear they have? Absolutely.
And again, I'm not denying that The Game gives people the opportunity to grind for anything they want. And personal choice doesn't come into it, like the breathing underwater example. No matter how much someone might choose to do it, or not, or want to do it, or not, it's not going to change the fact that if they do make a real effort to try, they're going to drown themself Accordingly, if someone's Circumstances don't allow them to build themself up, then they shouldn't be forced to build themself up, just in case they run across a DPS MegaBuild in a random Red Alert. What this is, is a matter of need for better stratification and grouping within, not between, ability levels. When wifey signed up, although I was able to send her mk xii gear, she wasn't able to actually load it till hitting the correct rank. And that's how the Red Alerts and queues need to be worked out. Not got The Stats for Kill The Borg? Queue won't load, but Something Else will. Got Moar Stats than Kill The Borg requires? Queue won't load, but Something Else will.
I will agree that while the PPS system is a good idea, STO does not have the population to support it properly. I personally have not seen any issue with queue times myself, however I won't deny that others see an issue as I generally play during peak hours.
Then the issue, is one of not only attracting more players, but also of retaining existing ones
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Noo, I'm not saying that people should be rewarded in-game Because Reasons. I'm saying, that everyone should be able to log on, and deal with content and scenarios at Their Level, so they don't have to encounter others of different levels, other than by deliberate intention, such as personal challenges.
But isn't this what socialization is for? This is an MMORPG after all. Public queues are going to be (and should always be IMO) a mixed bag. If you want to play with people of a similar build/skill level, search out a fleet of players who fit your style.
And yes, high DPS players can (and already) do the same thing.
[/quote]
I guess it's a matter of perspective. Personally, I view this as a game which multiple players are playing, but not necessarily playing together. I don't mind if public queues and Red Alerts are a mixed bag, but if that's the case, then as I said, no AFK bans either from The System, or other players raging that they don't think someone is pulling their weight. If I see a Scimitar in a queue, I'll drop it. I'd rather get a half-hour leaver's penalty, than risk catching a two hour AFK ban, because I can't get to a target before Scimy the Romulan has vaped them, or because, as happened a few times on the last PC I used, the FPS from all the SpaceMagic choked the processor, and I was left staring at an unmoving screen, while hearing the sounds all around me, and then bam, reported as AFK... Hard to participate when the PC is choking on someone else's crazy output
And sure, seeking out private groups is definitely what I would prefer to see, rather than the current Red Alert mixed bags
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
What you are essentially saying is people should be rewarded in game because they work hard, have families, bills to pay etc. That's not how life works. If something is important to you, you go out and work for it and earn it.
All true. But, conversely, playing games doesn't pay your bills -- unless you're very lucky somehow. So, a game can't be too demanding, learning-wise, as you're not getting paid, and those bills *do* continue to stack (no diminishing returns on bills :P).
Thing just is, this game actually has a very shallow learning curve (in terms of doing reasonably okay in it). I saw tunebreaker getting blasted for talking about a 6 hour instruction video. Yeah, sounds long if you're watching it uninterruptedly. But 6 hours, to learn every ins and outs of this game?! That's a steal, really! If you want a steep learning curve, try EvE Online!
All-in-all, yeah, it pays to invest some time in L2P. As the saying goes: "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!"
I was speaking in more general terms that the cries for nerfs to bring people to the same level will not ever work.
In a open social game where content requires x number of players to launch a PvE, having a team of people at the same level is impossible.
There's no match making system that can possibly account for individual skill and ability.
Its not the gear that makes the ship, its her Captain
I can't believe we are 12 pages into this thread and still debating how unfair it is for more skilled players to team up with less skilled players.
I got news for you. That's life. Deal with it. You have this situation in every walk of life, School, Sports, Work where there's always someone better than you.
Either push yourself to get better or except that there will always be someone out there who is better than you. complaining about it is making you look petty.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
In a open social game where content requires x number of players to launch a PvE, having a team of people at the same level is impossible.
There's no match making system that can possibly account for individual skill and ability.
Its not the gear that makes the ship, its her Captain
I can't believe we are 12 pages into this thread and still debating how unfair it is for more skilled players to team up with less skilled players.
I got news for you. That's life. Deal with it. You have this situation in every walk of life, School, Sports, Work where there's always someone better than you.
Either push yourself to get better or except that there will always be someone out there who is better than you. complaining about it is making you look petty.
You're completely and utterly missing my point I Don't Care if other people are better than me. Honestly. I seriously couldn't care less if anyone is better than I am. What does bother me, is reading posts from others, who are complaining that they can't get a hit in in a pug because someone has vaped the map, or High DPSers looking down their nose at the casuals, and accusing them of spoiling their fun, because they're slowing them down. That's what bothers me.
Now I doubt anyone is going to believe that, but it's the truth. I'm simply advocating for an evenly managed system, where people can log in and kick back and Do What They Want, without treading on anyone else's toes
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Time to close the Thread. There are too many long pontificating posts and too many people not using judicious editing to re-quote them. All posts should be kept to 140 character memes only.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That's such a broad-stroke statement, that without context, it's effectively meaningless. I'd certainly agree that everyone playing the game has the same Potential for opportunity; in so much as anyone has the opportunity to learn to do what anyone else does. But when players are pointing out that they can't even get a hit in in queues because someone with a DPS MegaBuild has cleaned the map, then no, they clearly don't have a fair opportunity. And players are definitely pointing that out, so it's hardly a baseless complaint. Perhaps that's why the devs came up with the PPS idea.
Everyone does have equal opportunity though. The player in your scenario that 'can't get a shot in' is simply using bad tactics. The entire 'I got AFK' because of DPS guys' thing was a load of bull and always has been. It was only caused by the low DPS player following the high DPS player and watching the entire thing. In a queue, all you have to do is 1% of the total damage, the DPS guy can't go everywhere at once, the problem is fixed by simply going a different direction and engaging an enemy yourself. No one was ever deprived of opportunity because the DPS guy took all the kills away, to be totally blunt.. everyone who complained about that scenario was simply full of it. The point is that everyone starts at the same level, just because the DPS guy put in more time, effort, and possibly money, doesn't mean that equal opportunity wasn't presented. It simply means that each player used the opportunity differently.
Nerfing things isn't about getting player skill parity. It's about making the gap in skills smaller. Having a system where the top player and bottom player has a difference of something like 10000% is definately a system issue. And between average and good was something like 500%. Now, that difference is cut in half roughly. That's a much better state for the game...but it still terrible. The game actually still needs more nerfs.
I agree in principal, but I honestly believe that this isn't as true in Star Trek Online. I know you have seen it as much as I have in this game, where people just make these crazy builds that are just so bad that they're doing almost no damage. You take someone with one of those crazy builds and parse them against someone like you who actually knows what the heck he's doing and there is obviously going to be a large gap there. The biggest gap in STO has never been caused by abilities being so much better then others (in a few cases sure, but not overall.) At least, in my opinion (I admit it, I can't quantify this claim with hard data, just general observation) the biggest gap in STO is simply caused by lack of knowledge. Part of that is on the fact that the game doesn't tell you a lot of important stuff, and part of it is on the user for not seeking information.
My biggest problem with the way they nerf in this game is the absolute black and white methodology of it all. If something is deemed as over performing (Embassy Consoles) it's 'fixed' by making it completely and totally worthless. They could have, for example, left the embassy console the same and just made them Unique so that you can only use 1 of them. That's just off the top of my head, but instead what did they do? They cut them down to such a degree that now they're just a worthless item that takes up space in the database. Everyone took all of their Embassy Consoles and just trashed them. 'Adjusting for balance' in this game too often means 'fixing it by making it completely useless.'
No matter how much they reduce the effectiveness of skills or items, the huge gap is going to exist as long as the 'top guys' are putting in the work and the the 'bottom half' is leeching off their success. If an unskilled pilot just does a copy/paste of one of the DPS guys top builds, they will not get anywhere near the same performance even though they have the exact same set of skills. The gear can easily be copied, but the skill is really what keeps those two players so far apart.
That's such a broad-stroke statement, that without context, it's effectively meaningless. I'd certainly agree that everyone playing the game has the same Potential for opportunity; in so much as anyone has the opportunity to learn to do what anyone else does. But when players are pointing out that they can't even get a hit in in queues because someone with a DPS MegaBuild has cleaned the map, then no, they clearly don't have a fair opportunity. And players are definitely pointing that out, so it's hardly a baseless complaint. Perhaps that's why the devs came up with the PPS idea.
Everyone does have equal opportunity though. The player in your scenario that 'can't get a shot in' is simply using bad tactics. The entire 'I got AFK' because of DPS guys' thing was a load of bull and always has been. It was only caused by the low DPS player following the high DPS player and watching the entire thing. In a queue, all you have to do is 1% of the total damage, the DPS guy can't go everywhere at once, the problem is fixed by simply going a different direction and engaging an enemy yourself. No one was ever deprived of opportunity because the DPS guy took all the kills away, to be totally blunt.. everyone who complained about that scenario was simply full of it. The point is that everyone starts at the same level, just because the DPS guy put in more time, effort, and possibly money, doesn't mean that equal opportunity wasn't presented. It simply means that each player used the opportunity differently.
Nerfing things isn't about getting player skill parity. It's about making the gap in skills smaller. Having a system where the top player and bottom player has a difference of something like 10000% is definately a system issue. And between average and good was something like 500%. Now, that difference is cut in half roughly. That's a much better state for the game...but it still terrible. The game actually still needs more nerfs.
I agree in principal, but I honestly believe that this isn't as true in Star Trek Online. I know you have seen it as much as I have in this game, where people just make these crazy builds that are just so bad that they're doing almost no damage. You take someone with one of those crazy builds and parse them against someone like you who actually knows what the heck he's doing and there is obviously going to be a large gap there. The biggest gap in STO has never been caused by abilities being so much better then others (in a few cases sure, but not overall.) At least, in my opinion (I admit it, I can't quantify this claim with hard data, just general observation) the biggest gap in STO is simply caused by lack of knowledge. Part of that is on the fact that the game doesn't tell you a lot of important stuff, and part of it is on the user for not seeking information.
My biggest problem with the way they nerf in this game is the absolute black and white methodology of it all. If something is deemed as over performing (Embassy Consoles) it's 'fixed' by making it completely and totally worthless. They could have, for example, left the embassy console the same and just made them Unique so that you can only use 1 of them. That's just off the top of my head, but instead what did they do? They cut them down to such a degree that now they're just a worthless item that takes up space in the database. Everyone took all of their Embassy Consoles and just trashed them. 'Adjusting for balance' in this game too often means 'fixing it by making it completely useless.'
No matter how much they reduce the effectiveness of skills or items, the huge gap is going to exist as long as the 'top guys' are putting in the work and the the 'bottom half' is leeching off their success. If an unskilled pilot just does a copy/paste of one of the DPS guys top builds, they will not get anywhere near the same performance even though they have the exact same set of skills. The gear can easily be copied, but the skill is really what keeps those two players so far apart.
That's such a broad-stroke statement, that without context, it's effectively meaningless. I'd certainly agree that everyone playing the game has the same Potential for opportunity; in so much as anyone has the opportunity to learn to do what anyone else does. But when players are pointing out that they can't even get a hit in in queues because someone with a DPS MegaBuild has cleaned the map, then no, they clearly don't have a fair opportunity. And players are definitely pointing that out, so it's hardly a baseless complaint. Perhaps that's why the devs came up with the PPS idea.
Everyone does have equal opportunity though. The player in your scenario that 'can't get a shot in' is simply using bad tactics. The entire 'I got AFK' because of DPS guys' thing was a load of bull and always has been. It was only caused by the low DPS player following the high DPS player and watching the entire thing. In a queue, all you have to do is 1% of the total damage, the DPS guy can't go everywhere at once, the problem is fixed by simply going a different direction and engaging an enemy yourself. No one was ever deprived of opportunity because the DPS guy took all the kills away, to be totally blunt.. everyone who complained about that scenario was simply full of it. The point is that everyone starts at the same level, just because the DPS guy put in more time, effort, and possibly money, doesn't mean that equal opportunity wasn't presented. It simply means that each player used the opportunity differently.
To be fair, I've never personally caught an AFK for not getting a hit in, but I have seen others mention it. I have caught AFKs when Space Magic choked the computer though, and, mostly flying a cruiser, there have been times when other ships swoop in and take 'my kill' (and getting that kill much faster than I could with any of my set ups, phasers, cannons or polaron turrets) so when people say that they've been registered as AFK, well, I find it easy to believe, based on what I have seen myself. Maybe I'm just too willing to believe people... :-\
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
What I really don't get is how people can claim that stuff making the hellacious DPS is somehow not "broken and exploitative".
This is mostly because there is open communications between the Devs and the players coming up with these builds. We ask the devs, and they tell us if it is WAI or it wasn't what they designed it for. Also, the Devs have all the data they need to see how the combinations interact. They have access to all the DPS logs (those are publicly downloadable in SCM and for everything above 75k in CLR) in addition to their internal analytics.
Once in a while, they'd tell us if something is out of whack and they are generally quick to "fix" issues. The most recent that comes into mind is the "Hit and Run" trait fix. Kemocite was also one of those things that got an early warning from the Devs and the DPS crowd (that it wasn't working properly) but the fix itself got delayed a few months (hence the outcry when it came).
There are very few "real exploits" that were used by a very small group of people to "game" DPS. Even those that had basic knowledge of the game mechanics are able to cobble up together a high performance build.
IMO (and no offense), the people that conclude that high DPS output stems from exploits take their conclusions from their lack of knowledge of the game. In my view, they are no different to people that think the Earth is flat due to their own lack of knowledge. And like Flat-Earthers, they are pretty adamant on their own beliefs.
ah yes, the refrain of people who don't have a job and can spend forty hours a week just grinding gear while they wait for the cheque from the State, or their parents, or their spouse.
I had to re-read this comment several times and I still can't believe you posted this.
You're talking about a game where you can play 1 hour or less every day and get pretty much anything you want. Log on, run a couple red alerts, queue up DoFF missions, Queue up Admiralty, log off.. profit.
On a side note, I find it highly disappointing that you would take such an unprovoked and frankly.. low brow shot against me with absolutely no provocation at all. I have, so far, been very careful to keep my discussion to the issue at hand and attack ideas and not individuals. I have been respectful to you and am surprised to see this type of response.
For what it's worth, I am a College Educated working adult (I'm 40 years old) and I work as a Mainframe Systems Analyst (IT stuff) for Toyota, a company currently ranked 6th in the Fortune 500. I have held my position there for 12 years and part of the reason for my odd posting hours is because I work the overnight shift. I make an above average living and I have not lived off my parents, or anyone else since I graduated high school. Outside of Student Loans, I have never taken a dime in State or Federal Assistance money.
I have been able to succeed in this game due to time management, which is the only 'trick' to Star Trek Online. I have played this game on and off for the last 5 years and so I have a fairly high amount of in game resources. Far more then some, a pittance in comparison to others, but enough to play around with things and work toward improving personal performance.
For future reference, my only interest from this point is discussion of the issue at hand. If you wish to engage in generalities, judgments, or any other dialog based purely on assumptions of posters personally then our correspondence is concluded with this post.
There's no match making system that can possibly account for individual skill and ability.
Its not the gear that makes the ship, its her Captain
Oh, but there is. No idea how viable this would be for STO or if it is even implemented somewhat, but you can easily gather data about how a captain fared - maybe in relation to ship strength, maybe as an absolute. This would make such a matchmaking possible.
I can't believe we are 12 pages into this thread and still debating how unfair it is for more skilled players to team up with less skilled players.
Because most if not all of the discussion isn't about that at all. It isn't about not being better/worse anymore, but about how much of a difference - or better relation - in actual output it is sensible to have between the best and the "average Joe".
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
I can't believe we are 12 pages into this thread and still debating how unfair it is for more skilled players to team up with less skilled players.
Me neither. And what makes me wonder the most: I almost never encounter any in game complaining about the over-performance of me or others in public matches. If they get their smooth run and quick reward I bet 99/100 players are happy and don’t worry about how it was achieved. Only when a match does not work out, then they get all vocal.
The avarage Joe was happy the way it was. It’s really only a hand full around here which complain. Like some DPSer who think that running ISA as a competitive PvE is the way to set “representative” and “true” records they approach a pug run as competition, loose and then get upset. Nobody forces either of them to do that.
I really found such behavior quiet common among DPSer and scrubs alike by the way. I mean lol. I have seen the same DPSer heroically judge over WAI and broken mechanics in chats and around here and then encountered them while secretly gateway dope themselves in the anonymity of a pug to a new record. I have seen the very same players calling out how unfair Recluse Nannies are put together a full aggro DPS build and then deliberatly seeking uncoordinated and weak pugs to ensure their builds to work best and also get absurd numbers.
It’s teamed PvE guys. We win as team, we lose as team. Those who realize that get to the top of DPS leaderboards. And those who realize that also find thier place in a more avarage teams. There is always a chance to participate and to play along.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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Comments
My character Tsin'xing
I'm with e30ernest here: something wich is clearly broken, and gets fixed, I don't necessarily call that a nerf. Like those Research Lab consoles, that just kept on stacking CrtH, indefinitely. That only lasted for a few days, fortunately (DPS ppl properly reported it, btw, upon wich Bort then not just corrected the error, but nerfed it a little extra, for spite; but I digress).
So, yeah, Kemo was broken.
They should of left the old system where it showed all the difficulties on the same page and just added the tabs.. and remove the need to switch the difficulty every time you open the UI for the LFG system.
:-l
So while that might might make for a nice PR soundbite, the reality is very much dependant on the individual's circumstances and/or inclinations. Someone may only ever want to be a casual player, without taking things further. Someone may want to become a higher DPS player, but lack the resources or schedule flexibility to do so. That the possible opportunity exists, is irrelevant if someone happens to lack the capacity to make use of it
Just as it's easier to dismiss a problem, rather than actually fixing it, which acknowledging the problem, would then necessitate
That explains that then. According to comments I've seen on the topic, chalk it up to another good idea the devs had, which wasn't properly implemented. If PPS was to apply to all PvE queues, it would certainly save the issue of Casuals v DPSers, would it not? But, that would also require there to be enough people engaging with the queues for them to populate, and if comments are to be believed, queue population is not only not good, but the devs knew that population wasn't good even before releasing the UI (because people were noting about how on Tribble, the UI wasn't showing how many people were actually (not) waiting to play the game)
Like I said a few pages back, if PvE queues have to be a mix of Casuals/DPSers (because there's no balance in players loaded, and not enough players queuing for the system to be selective) then the AFK ban system needs to be removed: If someone finds themself in a pug where they can't participate, because someone else is vaping the targets, then they need to be able to kick back for the remainder of the run, without fear of being registered AFK by the system, or reported thus, by another player.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
ParentPlayer1 works a good 9-5, and has two kids and a dog. They may technically have the money to buy what they want, but they know that they have to keep money aside for the kids and dog's vet bills, or when the microwave unexpectedly blows up, or the car needs a new set of tyres. So they actually don't have the disposable to spend on The Good Stuffz. But that's okay, you say, because they can just do the grind and earn it all that way! When? They're likely occupied with Family Needs till at least 8 PM. They presumably want to spend time with their SO, and need to be in bed at a reasonable time, to get a good night's sleep, before work the next day. That gives between 2-3 hours potential playing time (realistically, more like 1-2 hours)
They just want to log in, do a mission, and Blow Stuff Up. They aren't going to want to spend that time going between a dozen alts to grind resources which they can't buy with cashmoney.
So they're effectively stuck in the situation of a very slow climb, if they even bother to climb, and just enjoy the game at their level. Suppose they enter a Red Alert, happen to catch one with a High DPS MegaBuild, and get a 2 hour AFK. Sure, it gives them time to do some grinding, but it also means their Red Alert runs are done for the day. If they know that could happen each day, what's their incentive to keep logging in and crawling up that climb of improvement? They would have none.
Personally, I've got all the time in the world to grind (just no PC to use at the moment) and always willing to improve my build and skills, but at the end of the day, I have no desire to chase High DPS and start fapping over parse results. I'm willing to put in the grind, if for no other reason, than I don't want to catch AFK bans, because that impacts my resource collection.
There is plenty of denial that there is an issue. Just look back over the past few pages.
You seem to be thinking (or trying to create the narrative) that this is about me, rather than statements being made about the state of the game itself.
I'm not saying that anything needs to be brought down to my level. I'm not saying that I'm unwilling to improve (I solicited advice, and appreciate the responses given) I was saying, that there needs to be more done with the PPS system, so people are playing against or with, players of equal level. I see coldnapalm feels that the game needs more nerfs, but I notice you aren't trying to pick a fight with him about it. I find that telling.
And as I illustrated, someone Might Not Have the time to put in that effort. They Might Not Have the cashmoney to buy The Good Stuffz, so your assertion is fundamentally flawed. You base your presumption on the premise that just because The Game offers the same opportunities to all, that all players are equally capable of utilizing those opportunities. That simply is not the case.
No matter how much someone may wish to do so, putting their head underwater and inhaling, is not going to teach them to breathe underwater
Implementing the PPS system across the board for all queues and all Red Alerts, solves the issue outright, because everyone is then playing with people of equal capacity to themself.
But then we're back to the issue of queue population, and how many people are joining queues. I know there are some like azrael, who are claiming that they've never seen any delay in queues, so they say everything is fine. But that's a massively blinkered view, focussing solely on one's own viewpoint, and refusing to accept additional external facts. I've never eaten dog meat or horse meat, but that doesn't mean that the practices don't occur. Just as many players, if not more, are discussing delays in queues loading, which can only be accounted to lower player numbers. These population numbers may possibly due to the summer event, possibly due to other factors, but they are still clearly having an impact on queue load times.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
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As you so rightly said, it is unrealistic for that player to expect to be on the same level as someone who can devote more time and resources toward improving their game. So accordingly, they simply shouldn't be put in the situation where they come up against that higher-tiered player.
Accepted.
And again, I'm not denying that The Game gives people the opportunity to grind for anything they want. And personal choice doesn't come into it, like the breathing underwater example. No matter how much someone might choose to do it, or not, or want to do it, or not, it's not going to change the fact that if they do make a real effort to try, they're going to drown themself
Then the issue, is one of not only attracting more players, but also of retaining existing ones
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
[/quote]
I guess it's a matter of perspective. Personally, I view this as a game which multiple players are playing, but not necessarily playing together. I don't mind if public queues and Red Alerts are a mixed bag, but if that's the case, then as I said, no AFK bans either from The System, or other players raging that they don't think someone is pulling their weight. If I see a Scimitar in a queue, I'll drop it. I'd rather get a half-hour leaver's penalty, than risk catching a two hour AFK ban, because I can't get to a target before Scimy the Romulan has vaped them, or because, as happened a few times on the last PC I used, the FPS from all the SpaceMagic choked the processor, and I was left staring at an unmoving screen, while hearing the sounds all around me, and then bam, reported as AFK... Hard to participate when the PC is choking on someone else's crazy output
And sure, seeking out private groups is definitely what I would prefer to see, rather than the current Red Alert mixed bags
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
All true. But, conversely, playing games doesn't pay your bills -- unless you're very lucky somehow.
Thing just is, this game actually has a very shallow learning curve (in terms of doing reasonably okay in it). I saw tunebreaker getting blasted for talking about a 6 hour instruction video. Yeah, sounds long if you're watching it uninterruptedly. But 6 hours, to learn every ins and outs of this game?! That's a steal, really! If you want a steep learning curve, try EvE Online!
All-in-all, yeah, it pays to invest some time in L2P. As the saying goes: "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!"
Also very true.
There's no match making system that can possibly account for individual skill and ability.
Its not the gear that makes the ship, its her Captain
I can't believe we are 12 pages into this thread and still debating how unfair it is for more skilled players to team up with less skilled players.
I got news for you. That's life. Deal with it. You have this situation in every walk of life, School, Sports, Work where there's always someone better than you.
Either push yourself to get better or except that there will always be someone out there who is better than you. complaining about it is making you look petty.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Now I doubt anyone is going to believe that, but it's the truth. I'm simply advocating for an evenly managed system, where people can log in and kick back and Do What They Want, without treading on anyone else's toes
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Everyone does have equal opportunity though. The player in your scenario that 'can't get a shot in' is simply using bad tactics. The entire 'I got AFK' because of DPS guys' thing was a load of bull and always has been. It was only caused by the low DPS player following the high DPS player and watching the entire thing. In a queue, all you have to do is 1% of the total damage, the DPS guy can't go everywhere at once, the problem is fixed by simply going a different direction and engaging an enemy yourself. No one was ever deprived of opportunity because the DPS guy took all the kills away, to be totally blunt.. everyone who complained about that scenario was simply full of it. The point is that everyone starts at the same level, just because the DPS guy put in more time, effort, and possibly money, doesn't mean that equal opportunity wasn't presented. It simply means that each player used the opportunity differently.
I agree in principal, but I honestly believe that this isn't as true in Star Trek Online. I know you have seen it as much as I have in this game, where people just make these crazy builds that are just so bad that they're doing almost no damage. You take someone with one of those crazy builds and parse them against someone like you who actually knows what the heck he's doing and there is obviously going to be a large gap there. The biggest gap in STO has never been caused by abilities being so much better then others (in a few cases sure, but not overall.) At least, in my opinion (I admit it, I can't quantify this claim with hard data, just general observation) the biggest gap in STO is simply caused by lack of knowledge. Part of that is on the fact that the game doesn't tell you a lot of important stuff, and part of it is on the user for not seeking information.
My biggest problem with the way they nerf in this game is the absolute black and white methodology of it all. If something is deemed as over performing (Embassy Consoles) it's 'fixed' by making it completely and totally worthless. They could have, for example, left the embassy console the same and just made them Unique so that you can only use 1 of them. That's just off the top of my head, but instead what did they do? They cut them down to such a degree that now they're just a worthless item that takes up space in the database. Everyone took all of their Embassy Consoles and just trashed them. 'Adjusting for balance' in this game too often means 'fixing it by making it completely useless.'
No matter how much they reduce the effectiveness of skills or items, the huge gap is going to exist as long as the 'top guys' are putting in the work and the the 'bottom half' is leeching off their success. If an unskilled pilot just does a copy/paste of one of the DPS guys top builds, they will not get anywhere near the same performance even though they have the exact same set of skills. The gear can easily be copied, but the skill is really what keeps those two players so far apart.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
This is mostly because there is open communications between the Devs and the players coming up with these builds. We ask the devs, and they tell us if it is WAI or it wasn't what they designed it for. Also, the Devs have all the data they need to see how the combinations interact. They have access to all the DPS logs (those are publicly downloadable in SCM and for everything above 75k in CLR) in addition to their internal analytics.
Once in a while, they'd tell us if something is out of whack and they are generally quick to "fix" issues. The most recent that comes into mind is the "Hit and Run" trait fix. Kemocite was also one of those things that got an early warning from the Devs and the DPS crowd (that it wasn't working properly) but the fix itself got delayed a few months (hence the outcry when it came).
There are very few "real exploits" that were used by a very small group of people to "game" DPS. Even those that had basic knowledge of the game mechanics are able to cobble up together a high performance build.
IMO (and no offense), the people that conclude that high DPS output stems from exploits take their conclusions from their lack of knowledge of the game. In my view, they are no different to people that think the Earth is flat due to their own lack of knowledge. And like Flat-Earthers, they are pretty adamant on their own beliefs.
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I had to re-read this comment several times and I still can't believe you posted this.
You're talking about a game where you can play 1 hour or less every day and get pretty much anything you want. Log on, run a couple red alerts, queue up DoFF missions, Queue up Admiralty, log off.. profit.
On a side note, I find it highly disappointing that you would take such an unprovoked and frankly.. low brow shot against me with absolutely no provocation at all. I have, so far, been very careful to keep my discussion to the issue at hand and attack ideas and not individuals. I have been respectful to you and am surprised to see this type of response.
For what it's worth, I am a College Educated working adult (I'm 40 years old) and I work as a Mainframe Systems Analyst (IT stuff) for Toyota, a company currently ranked 6th in the Fortune 500. I have held my position there for 12 years and part of the reason for my odd posting hours is because I work the overnight shift. I make an above average living and I have not lived off my parents, or anyone else since I graduated high school. Outside of Student Loans, I have never taken a dime in State or Federal Assistance money.
I have been able to succeed in this game due to time management, which is the only 'trick' to Star Trek Online. I have played this game on and off for the last 5 years and so I have a fairly high amount of in game resources. Far more then some, a pittance in comparison to others, but enough to play around with things and work toward improving personal performance.
For future reference, my only interest from this point is discussion of the issue at hand. If you wish to engage in generalities, judgments, or any other dialog based purely on assumptions of posters personally then our correspondence is concluded with this post.
LOL. you mean, doing the same thing that has been the core of star trek since 1966?
Oh, but there is. No idea how viable this would be for STO or if it is even implemented somewhat, but you can easily gather data about how a captain fared - maybe in relation to ship strength, maybe as an absolute. This would make such a matchmaking possible.
Because most if not all of the discussion isn't about that at all. It isn't about not being better/worse anymore, but about how much of a difference - or better relation - in actual output it is sensible to have between the best and the "average Joe".
Me neither. And what makes me wonder the most: I almost never encounter any in game complaining about the over-performance of me or others in public matches. If they get their smooth run and quick reward I bet 99/100 players are happy and don’t worry about how it was achieved. Only when a match does not work out, then they get all vocal.
The avarage Joe was happy the way it was. It’s really only a hand full around here which complain. Like some DPSer who think that running ISA as a competitive PvE is the way to set “representative” and “true” records they approach a pug run as competition, loose and then get upset. Nobody forces either of them to do that.
I really found such behavior quiet common among DPSer and scrubs alike by the way. I mean lol. I have seen the same DPSer heroically judge over WAI and broken mechanics in chats and around here and then encountered them while secretly gateway dope themselves in the anonymity of a pug to a new record. I have seen the very same players calling out how unfair Recluse Nannies are put together a full aggro DPS build and then deliberatly seeking uncoordinated and weak pugs to ensure their builds to work best and also get absurd numbers.
It’s teamed PvE guys. We win as team, we lose as team. Those who realize that get to the top of DPS leaderboards. And those who realize that also find thier place in a more avarage teams. There is always a chance to participate and to play along.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.