[quote]Not sure about Masteries per se, but they generally did let DrainX get out of hand a bit. Like with the Terran Space Set. Maybe they meant for you to just use the DrainX to siphon power from NPC's, and not necessarily to primarily boost your own power levels? But I never understand why they're acting so suprised then, as they made that stuff themselves. In a bizarre twist of events, I'd rather CrypticSpartan be a permanent part of the team then, so they won't let get things out of hand in the first place: then no one will feel 'cheated' afterwards. Somehow I suspect that will conflict with their business model, though.
> @meimeitoo said: > patrickngo wrote: » > > in the case of the Leech, this change isn't the first time it's been changed. on release, it was even WORSE, and it got reduced, and when they introduced Reputations, they had to add code to prevent it from interacting with MACO shields which were now suddenly available across factions, so it's not been 'untouched' for seven years. far from it, the present paradigm came about because (again) they added stuff that interacted with it in ways they didn't account for-only now it was available to Fed players with ships that could genuinely abuse how it works thanks to the introduction of masteries. > > > > > > Not sure about Masteries per se, but they generally did let DrainX get out of hand a bit. Like with the Terran Space Set. Maybe they meant for you to just use the DrainX to siphon power from NPC's, and not necessarily to primarily boost your own power levels? But I never understand why they're acting so suprised then, as they made that stuff themselves. In a bizarre twist of events, I'd rather CrypticSpartan be a permanent part of the team then, so they won't let get things out of hand in the first place: then no one will feel 'cheated' afterwards. Somehow I suspect that will conflict with their business model, though.[/quote]
(Not sure why its using reddit like markdown now and I can't figure out how to fix it)
I believe the Max in combat DrainX Skill you can obtain is now something like 1050, it is rather quite absurd. My Drain Boat is seeing 950 in combat without any special BOffs or Fleet buffs and is lacking +35.5 from a console set.
--- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do maths stuffs ---
(Not sure why its using reddit like markdown now and I can't figure out how to fix it)
For some reason, if you post to Forums from your mobile, they don't accept the quote /quote (in square brackets) as it's done in PC, but rather do the quoting with that "reddit-like markdown" as you described it.
Anything I can say about the queues directly would be based on console; my computer was old and I migrated there on my newer console. I can say that the queues there still show the number waiting, and it's still tough finding one close to popping, but the UI is decent enough where its actual use is concerned. For anyone thinking PvP or whatnot are all on console, though, I can say: No, it's not. The queues are slow there too, and it's sure as heck not Risa; the Summer Resort generally has about three instances when I'm on.
So, anyway, in a broad sense...
The game should not be truly balanced. It can, but not if we want to continue playing. For a game to remain profitable, and ultimately supported by a game company, it must remain unbalanced enough for players to look at what someone else is doing and think: "I want that." This leads to both community involvement (because those without "that" will have to find out what "that" is, whether by PM/Fleet/Channels/Forums/Reddit/whatever) and spending (because we have to get "that" somehow; even with mechanics like the DilEx making F2P more freebie-friendly, it earns profits somewhere).
The game should not be overly unbalanced. This has been commented on by both ends of the DPS debate and by PvPers, with different perspectives, and I'm going to stay the heck out of that. Still, most of us could probably agree that a reasonable balance is needed to make most games more enjoyable? Maybe?
So the idea is to make things unbalanced enough that we have things to work towards, without making them unbalanced enough that these seem out of reach. This can be done through nerfs, buffs, introducing alternatives. The nerfs can be done quickly and effectively, and could also help to mitigate excess currency generation in the economy, but have the offset of negating player investment and making players less inclined to invest further. The buffs can be done quickly and effectively, but could exacerbate excess currency generation, making it harder for new players to invest in upgrades. The introduction of alternatives doesn't address balance issues directly, but instead adds to both sides of the balance scales, generally taking longer to have results (which are not always those intended) and inevitably leading to powercreep.
In the end, if we want more balance in the game, something about that will suck. The main challenge for the Dev team is to try and minimize this so that it doesn't drive players out entirely, which seems to be part of the problem with S13: it focused too much on nerfs, negating player investment. I see the term ragequitting tossed out there, but when enough of a player's investment disappears... if you're going to spend effort/money/time/etc. on a game, what specific reason do you have to spend it on the same game? Tinkering with a new environment or ruleset can be done just as well in a completely new environment and ruleset, after all.
Yet even after this there are underlying issues that remain. Characters are still built with 60 actual (factored into scaling, etc.) plus 35 pseudo (the minimum needed to fill one Primary and one Secondary Spec tree) levels. The playerbase was too spread out for PuGs in most queues, now made worse by those migrating to console, leaving, or going Private... but hopefully addressed by Endeavors. The classes still have disparate capabilities, with one being superior to the others. Some abilities stack geometrically, while some suffer diminishing returns. There is a lack of proper in-game tutorials, manuals, or even a UI capable of displaying how exactly something really affects your performance. The slope for our capabilities is still rather steep, some of which is intentional. Etc.
So, there's still quite a bit to be done, while at the same time maybe too much was done.
Me, I'm still playing over on console. The queues are dead, there is no Channel system over there (I really miss that), the UI is apparently better than PC (it allows for easy selection of multiple difficulties of the same queue, for example), and since I don't have my nice things (tons of Event and C-Store ships for account unlocks, 20+ characters, and all the halfway decent gear setups I'd built myself up to)... and I'm okay with that version of S13. In many ways the change to console has been liberating for me, since I don't have most of the nice things I once had to even get upset about (even Giveaways such as the Assimilated Cruiser Admiralty Ship, etc. have been one-shot rather than account unlocks, and I didn't even find the email with the free T6 Sovvie for PC until that had expired anyway). I've gone Casual-that-generally-knows-what-to-do, have no intention of investing heavily in anything, and thus I have more time for a wider variety of games beyond just STO. My old fun might have been wrong and nerfed, but I found new fun nonetheless.
we miss you over here on PC side.
okay, that said...
you're right about the difference in perception of what constitutes balance. I come from a pvp background on tabletop. (tabletop wargaming, battletech and historicals specifically, with some RPG experience.)
so my view of 'balance' is probably different from the view of people from both MMO and videogame communities.
In simple terms, 'Balance' isn't perfect if you want a playable game, but it IS a factor. My way of expressing it, is the 40/40/20 split, where basically the 40s equal the chance of a given player (ceterus paribus) winning outright, and the 20 represents the difference-that is, the random factors like individual player skill, terrain, luck, random numbers or subjective factors-aka the actual gameplay of the players. it's the percentage chance, dig?
in design terms, it means nobody should be able to do something uncounterable, or nobody should be able to run a build that sacrifices nothing.
In STO's situation, this would mean that in a situation of this 'good enough' balance, you can be hard to hit-but not unhittable. You can be hard to damage, but not immune to damage, you can do a lot of damage, but not one-shot kills, and you can't be both borderline invincible, AND deliver one shot/one-hit/instant kills on other players while keeping them unable to hit back.
this is the line that Cryptic crossed with Delta Rising. Introducing powers that worked on players with the net result of making invincible predators and helpless prey-that situation is teh main reason for the PvP exodus t hat saw most of the 'name' players among the PvP community leave en-masse.
In PvE, the imbalance can be seen in a situation where two players of allegedly the same level, with similar investments in gear, but around 1000% difference in effectiveness.
the spread's too high, the means of achieving it too esoteric, and a lot of it relied on using synergies that were obviously never intended to occur.
Notably, from my end, the problems are linked, that is, they're evolved from the same root mistakes, and Season 13 was a good try at correcting those mistakes.
and, it didnt' go far enough-because we still have the 'superman' builds that sacrifice nothing for near-perfect defense and immunity while one-shotting other players, we still have sub-one-minute ISA and CCA runs, and we still have players getting AFK'ed for being unable to fire before some showoff has cleared the map entirely.
but these are all a lot less common now, than they were in Season 12.
there has to be a spread, to encourage people to buy stuff, and to give people somehting to work toward achieving, but it's run WAY the hell out of control, even to the point of creating an artificial 'barrier' to whole modes of the game that were included at launch, and not removed in spite of having lost 90% of their EXISTING minority audience.
at one point last year, I was even advocating the removal of PvP-because Cryptic had no interest in making the mode actually playable-that is, reining in the racing powercreep and making it casual-friendly (as it was, in 2012.)
and I was one of the few remaining public advocates for PvP at the time.
at the time, I viewed it as requiring entirely too much investment (money and man-hours) on a game mode they'd already ruined in terms of bringing in new interest and new players. well...
@crypticspartan#0627 proved I was wrong, he managed a significant improvement in game balance, including addressing key issues that had gone ignored by his colleague @borticuscryptic , leaving me to wonder how long before he's "Left Amicably, We SWEAR".
but he was limited by what he was permitted to do, and I respect that limitation.. I suspect the arguments were acrimonious and angry over there while he was laying out the course of action, and I'm a little bit concerned that this pushback from the exploitive minmaxers in the community is going to roll it back, and we'll end up with the same cycle of nerf/new thing that does what the nerf undid that we saw for six years, and Meimei has predicted already.
The reason it's so traumatic for so many players, is that it addressed issues that were allowed to rack up uncontrolled for a period of YEARS where the only feedback the developers would look at came from those that wanted "Moar Powah!!!" and were willing to kiss their collective behinds to get it.
I understand some of it-the dilithium riots, the Tau Dewa Death threats, the meme-treatment of Delta Rising, and the constant barrage of abuse eventually pushed most of the remaining staff behind closed doors, magnified every criticism into an attack, and generated a sort of bunker mentality that Spartan, being relatively new, hadn't yet evolved.
This game is bigger than your ISA parse, it's bigger than your CCA reward stack, it's the only Star Trek MMO we've got, this shouldn't ever be allowed to degrade into the kind of shovelware it was evolving into.
and that's on the community. Games with features should be balanced, sometimes th is means raising people up, and sometimes it means knocking them back a peg-but always with the elevation of something else. to keep it fresh, to prevent the "Won Tru Build" from happening. With a community as diverse as Trekkies, the diversity of the game should be protected and preserved, and sometimes, that does mean sacrificing sacred cows on the altar of balance.
Well said. Sometimes sacrifices by some higher end players have to be made to keep the game fun for the majority... without whom there would be no game.
The nerf-power creep cycle that some are worried about is indeed largely caused by some of the same people who are worried about it. By pretending that things were fine for way too long, things were getting worse with every new lockbox and ship release. Meaning that when the ever more needed corrections finally came, those corrections were of a much larger magnitude of course.
To those who are concerned about this, I would therefore say: let's try to make sure things don't get out of hand in the first place. Don't use exploits, don't wave around ridiculous DPS results, don't try to solo public instances that are meant for more players that also want to enjoy them. Basically, show some consideration towards other players or, as I've said before while quoting a certain alien accusing a certain captain, look beyond the bow of your own starship.
Of course Cryptic has a responsibility here too.
Now, if everyone takes his or her responsibility, then we may be able to avoid the need for future corrections. Cycles such as the power creep - nerf cycle are usually not nice. The fact that it's a cycle also means, however, that you can try to break it at different locations. Meaning that the players should not just expect Cryptic to do their part (not releasing OP stuff and not adding power creep) but that they themselves also have the ability to prevent the cycle from forming.
It's too easy to just blame one side of the cycle and its actors here; no one forces you to use stuff that anyone with something of a reasonable attitude can expect to be corrected at some point. So rather than min-maxing, or chasing ever higher numbers, just play the game with some self-restraint. It's not like you need over 100k DPS to complete the majority of the game content, so don't be too surprised if it's taken away eventually. Even if you do not understand the motivation behind it or lack the attitude needed to admit that corrections may be necessary sometimes, most of you/us have been here long enough to know that corrections like these were coming at some point.
As for the current state of the game: I also want to emphasise that some of my favorite queues (infected and khitomer ground, as well as most other ground missions) have been far less active over the last couple of weeks.
This cannot be due to the corrections only though. The ground rebalancing was done a significant time before the space part was addressed. After the ground rebalancing, there was still a reasonable amount of activity in the ground queues; I barely noticed a difference in fact. Only after the space corrections were applied, did the activity in the ground queues drop.
That may be because many players stopped playing the queues, but I doubt that is the only reason. Cause why would someone who prefers ground queues, be concerned about corrections w.r.t. the space part of the game? I think it's a combination of Risa, a lack of new purely PvE content, little new things in terms of rewards and only a minor role for the rebalancing, which arguably only affected the higher ranking players. Most people are probably also planning their vacation, finishing school etc. I'm sure we'll see more activity within a few weeks, especially when the new season launches.
If Cryptic manages to come up with something unique, something that's different than a system that will give out extra rewards for playing the same content in a slightly different manner, it would be even better. An exporation system, if implemented well, can be such an unique thing if done well.
That's all the more reason why blaming the adjustments only isn't reasonable. We already saw decreasing activity before the corrections indeed, even though there was still some activity.
That's why I'm also thinking that more is needed to address this issue. Unique rewards (such as we had for the old STF queues with unique uniforms), and better rewards for missions that have multiple objectives.
And probably a shift away from just adding ships that can only be used to play the same content for the 100th time. Maybe they could focus more on promoting truly different ways of playing, like species with unique abilities or a new career (something that goes beyond the specialisations which are just nice add-ons on the same old careers). Even smaller things like more episode content could be a nice way of getting more official content. Why is so little done with the Foundry for example? There are countless well written missions in there, if we saw a bit more promotion and maybe even a chance to have a foundry mission appear as an official featured episode, that would also likely boost the numbers significantly.
It wouldn't necessarily solve the issue of the queues, but perhaps the queues themselves are a problem because there's little variety in them. Making sure that players can at least do different things (like playing new Foundry-based featured episodes) between repeating the same queue can definitely help. More variety within queues (random events, a new enemy, different enemies which probably makes Borg Disconnected a bit more popular than the average queue) would also be a good thing.
Yea well the needs of the many and all… Tell me, where is this “majority” you speak of in the beginning of your post at the moment? Are they in story missions, risa, battle zones? They are not in public PvE matches. I can tell you as much because the list is as barren as it was before the adjustments. Only difference is that ISA and CCA are now dying as well because the two dozen peeps that DPSed the poo out of those are now gone too.
That’s one sacrifice that had to be made…
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
It's too easy to just blame one side of the cycle and its actors here; no one forces you to use stuff that anyone with something of a reasonable attitude can expect to be corrected at some point. So rather than min-maxing, or chasing ever higher numbers, just play the game with some self-restraint. It's not like you need over 100k DPS to complete the majority of the game content, so don't be too surprised if it's taken away eventually. Even if you do not understand the motivation behind it or lack the attitude needed to admit that corrections may be necessary sometimes, most of you/us have been here long enough to know that corrections like these were coming at some point.
So basically you're telling that fun of many players is wrong and they shouldn't play the game how they like?
I was mainly offering advice. Of course players can keep playing the way they like. Just don't be too surprised if it's not considered to be sustainable in the long run and corrected at some point.
That's knowledge most of us here should possess. What you or anyone else do(es) with that knowledge, is up to you/them.
And to answer your question a bit more specifically: what is sustainable is not just related to the amount of fun player A derives from playing the game; but also the degree to which player A's fun impedes on player B-Z's ablity to have fun. Hence the 'play with consideration for other players' advice because if that is done, it will give Cryptic less reason to come up with balance checks.
Yeah, the "balance pass" did all of jack squat to improve the game. It's still easy as falling down a flight of stairs, the good players can still solo most of the so-called team content and the bad players are still bad enough to fail at everything and blame someone else for it.
Some people got their happy on schadenfreude because the top DPS people lost a bit of numbers...betraying their jealousy to the DPS chasers even while they claim not to care. But pretending as if going down from roach-extermination with 20 megaton nukes to roach-extermination with 10 megaton nukes makes a difference for the game is just lame.
Cryptic nerfed our roach-nukes a bit, so they can keep selling even bigger ones. That's all.
Only difference is that ISA and CCA are now dying as well because the two dozen peeps that DPSed the poo out of those are now gone too.
Personally, I've mostly stopped running those two the past week or two. I've been mostly spending my time in Hive or Korfez runs with friends in TSC or Aggronauts. Sometimes we do premades too for ISA or KSA/CSA or whatever space run they're doing. The KMU event was refreshing as well (ran just that almost the entire weekend). I wish that event ran longer.
I grew tired of PUGging with all the complaints people are saying here and other threads about how "DPS'ers ruin their fun" so I decided to leave them so that they can enjoy their runs better.
I grew tired of PUGging with all the complaints people are saying here and other threads about how "DPS'ers ruin their fun" so I decided to leave them so that they can enjoy their runs better.
How considerate of you. I have heard one does not need much DPS anyway to beat advanced space maps. The players left in those will do fine.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I grew tired of PUGging with all the complaints people are saying here and other threads about how "DPS'ers ruin their fun" so I decided to leave them so that they can enjoy their runs better.
How considerate of you. I have heard one does not need much DPS anyway to beat advanced space maps. The players left in those will do fine.
Some of them will be fine...
But I am sure others will be "unwinnable". My last 2 PUGs were in a KSA where the 4 other players took over a minute to get the Valdore down to 99%. It healed back up to 100% after decloaking. The other was a CSA where they took over a minute again to get it down to 97% or so.
I grew tired of PUGging with all the complaints people are saying here and other threads about how "DPS'ers ruin their fun" so I decided to leave them so that they can enjoy their runs better.
How considerate of you. I have heard one does not need much DPS anyway to beat advanced space maps. The players left in those will do fine.
Well, official average time to complete ISA (according to PvE Queues window) is 20 minutes.
I grew tired of PUGging with all the complaints people are saying here and other threads about how "DPS'ers ruin their fun" so I decided to leave them so that they can enjoy their runs better.
How considerate of you. I have heard one does not need much DPS anyway to beat advanced space maps. The players left in those will do fine.
Some of them will be fine...
But I am sure others will be "unwinnable". My last 2 PUGs were in a KSA where the 4 other players took over a minute to get the Valdore down to 99%. It healed back up to 100% after decloaking. The other was a CSA where they took over a minute again to get it down to 97% or so.
Well, there's always the likes of Borg Disconnected, where you don't actually have to accomplish anything (besides shooting something a bit to avoid AFK penalty of course). If you can't kill the bosses, they just fly away and you win anyway.
We are in a Temporal Loop here. Seems that the same stuff was said over and over again over the past 15 pages.
Groundhogs Day this is not, as nothing is getting better as the same 'day' keeps replaying itself.
Time for a mercy killing badmoon.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
[Snip]
To those who are concerned about this, I would therefore say: let's try to make sure things don't get out of hand in the first place. Don't use exploits, don't wave around ridiculous DPS results, don't try to solo public instances that are meant for more players that also want to enjoy them. Basically, show some consideration towards other players or, as I've said before while quoting a certain alien accusing a certain captain, look beyond the bow of your own starship.
So basically you're telling that fun of many players is wrong and they shouldn't play the game how they like?
That, is a complex question (as in the fallacy of the same name, not a difficult question to answer )
tl;dr - Yes
More nuanced response - As risian said; show some restraint. It's hardly an unreasonable request, or a difficult one to understand, is it.
I put my hands up to it: My name's Kek, and I have min/maxer tendencies...
I like to optimize my builds. But only to a certain extent. As pretty as the ultra rare icon frame is, I prefer the very rare purple. I find it easy on my eyes, and I find the Epic gold a bit overwhelming. So I'm not fussed about getting everything at Epic quality. I'm curious to try kemocite, although knowing it's a shadow of its former self, I wonder if it's worth the spend just for curiosity's sake.
I can't see myself spending out on exploiter and locator consoles though, I don't need to get those kind of results. I wouldn't take a DPS MegaBuild into a RedAlert pug and melt the map: I've been irritated by that happening too many times, to ever consider inflicting the same irritation on another player.
Sure, I might have a Kelvin Dreadnought (and I'm sure there are better ships than that as well) but I'm only using vr quality stuffz and no fancy exploiter/locator consoles. The only ur consoles it does have, is the rcs accelerator to kick the turn rate (got it upto 21.2 degrees per second) into something a bit less cumbersome
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
[Snip]
To those who are concerned about this, I would therefore say: let's try to make sure things don't get out of hand in the first place. Don't use exploits, don't wave around ridiculous DPS results, don't try to solo public instances that are meant for more players that also want to enjoy them. Basically, show some consideration towards other players or, as I've said before while quoting a certain alien accusing a certain captain, look beyond the bow of your own starship.
[Snip]
To those who are concerned about this, I would therefore say: let's try to make sure things don't get out of hand in the first place. Don't use exploits, don't wave around ridiculous DPS results, don't try to solo public instances that are meant for more players that also want to enjoy them. Basically, show some consideration towards other players or, as I've said before while quoting a certain alien accusing a certain captain, look beyond the bow of your own starship.
[Snip]
To those who are concerned about this, I would therefore say: let's try to make sure things don't get out of hand in the first place. Don't use exploits, don't wave around ridiculous DPS results, don't try to solo public instances that are meant for more players that also want to enjoy them. Basically, show some consideration towards other players or, as I've said before while quoting a certain alien accusing a certain captain, look beyond the bow of your own starship.
So basically you're telling that fun of many players is wrong and they shouldn't play the game how they like?
That, is a complex question (as in the fallacy of the same name, not a difficult question to answer )
tl;dr - Yes
More nuanced response - As risian said; show some restraint. It's hardly an unreasonable request, or a difficult one to understand, is it.
I put my hands up to it: My name's Kek, and I have min/maxer tendencies...
I like to optimize my builds. But only to a certain extent. As pretty as the ultra rare icon frame is, I prefer the very rare purple. I find it easy on my eyes, and I find the Epic gold a bit overwhelming. So I'm not fussed about getting everything at Epic quality. I'm curious to try kemocite, although knowing it's a shadow of its former self, I wonder if it's worth the spend just for curiosity's sake.
I can't see myself spending out on exploiter and locator consoles though, I don't need to get those kind of results. I wouldn't take a DPS MegaBuild into a RedAlert pug and melt the map: I've been irritated by that happening too many times, to ever consider inflicting the same irritation on another player.
Sure, I might have a Kelvin Dreadnought (and I'm sure there are better ships than that as well) but I'm only using vr quality stuffz and no fancy exploiter/locator consoles. The only ur consoles it does have, is the rcs accelerator to kick the turn rate (got it upto 21.2 degrees per second) into something a bit less cumbersome
So you're saying you like to be a TRIBBLE player. Nothing wrong in itself with that, but suggesting that *everyone else* also needs to be as poor player is simply idiotic.
I don't even know what any of you are arguing about anymore, I don't think anyone knows what each other was originally stating! None of this thread makes sense now.
[Snip]
To those who are concerned about this, I would therefore say: let's try to make sure things don't get out of hand in the first place. Don't use exploits, don't wave around ridiculous DPS results, don't try to solo public instances that are meant for more players that also want to enjoy them. Basically, show some consideration towards other players or, as I've said before while quoting a certain alien accusing a certain captain, look beyond the bow of your own starship.
So basically you're telling that fun of many players is wrong and they shouldn't play the game how they like?
That, is a complex question (as in the fallacy of the same name, not a difficult question to answer )
tl;dr - Yes
More nuanced response - As risian said; show some restraint. It's hardly an unreasonable request, or a difficult one to understand, is it.
I put my hands up to it: My name's Kek, and I have min/maxer tendencies...
I like to optimize my builds. But only to a certain extent. As pretty as the ultra rare icon frame is, I prefer the very rare purple. I find it easy on my eyes, and I find the Epic gold a bit overwhelming. So I'm not fussed about getting everything at Epic quality. I'm curious to try kemocite, although knowing it's a shadow of its former self, I wonder if it's worth the spend just for curiosity's sake.
I can't see myself spending out on exploiter and locator consoles though, I don't need to get those kind of results. I wouldn't take a DPS MegaBuild into a RedAlert pug and melt the map: I've been irritated by that happening too many times, to ever consider inflicting the same irritation on another player.
Sure, I might have a Kelvin Dreadnought (and I'm sure there are better ships than that as well) but I'm only using vr quality stuffz and no fancy exploiter/locator consoles. The only ur consoles it does have, is the rcs accelerator to kick the turn rate (got it upto 21.2 degrees per second) into something a bit less cumbersome
So you're saying you like to be a **** player. Nothing wrong in itself with that, but suggesting that *everyone else* also needs to be as poor player is simply idiotic.
Another complex question, which avoids acknowledging the issue... Let's try some other example to see if you can realize the issue itself.
You're going on a first date with someone who has said they aren't a very strong swimmer. You don't chuck them off a boat into the lake.
You're going to get your freak on with someone who clearly says they don't like [insert act of choice here] But you still do [insert act of choice here] anyway. Is that a good thing to do? Or a douchey thing to do?
You're again deliberately ignoring the point(s) about extreme DPS having come about through obsessive scrutiny of game mechanics, and finding out what bizzare and/or unintended combinations and/or mechanics, for some reason give high results, and that using High DPS MegaBuilds negatively impacts the experience of anyone unfortunate enough to be caught in the blast radius.
I'm happy to be an AVERAGE player. Like I said, I do have min/maxer tendencies, but I don't go OTT with it, nor would I ever (if I ever had one) take a DPS MegaBuild into a public pug, because I can appreciate that it would spoil the experience for those other players.
Why is this such a hard concept or people to be grasping?
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Another complex question, which avoids acknowledging the issue... Let's try some other example to see if you can realize the issue itself.
You're going on a first date with someone who has said they aren't a very strong swimmer. You don't chuck them off a boat into the lake.
You're going to get your freak on with someone who clearly says they don't like [insert act of choice here] But you still do [insert act of choice here] anyway. Is that a good thing to do? Or a douchey thing to do?
You're again deliberately ignoring the point(s) about extreme DPS having come about through obsessive scrutiny of game mechanics, and finding out what bizzare and/or unintended combinations and/or mechanics, for some reason give high results, and that using High DPS MegaBuilds negatively impacts the experience of anyone unfortunate enough to be caught in the blast radius.
And yet again you demonstrate total lack of knowledge about DPSers and how they do their numbers.
Another complex question, which avoids acknowledging the issue... Let's try some other example to see if you can realize the issue itself.
You're going on a first date with someone who has said they aren't a very strong swimmer. You don't chuck them off a boat into the lake.
You're going to get your freak on with someone who clearly says they don't like [insert act of choice here] But you still do [insert act of choice here] anyway. Is that a good thing to do? Or a douchey thing to do?
Except those analogies are terrible.
And why do you think they're terrible? It wouldn't be because it exposes the power-trip mentality for what it actually is, and makes people confront that aspect of themself, would it?
You're again deliberately ignoring the point(s) about extreme DPS having come about through obsessive scrutiny of game mechanics, and finding out what bizzare and/or unintended combinations and/or mechanics, for some reason give high results, and that using High DPS MegaBuilds negatively impacts the experience of anyone unfortunate enough to be caught in the blast radius.
And yet again you demonstrate total lack of knowledge about DPSers and how they do their numbers.
So no DPSer has ever exploited the mechanics of consoles like exploiters, locators, kemo, leech, etc etc?? I'm not even going to ask 'yes or no', because it's clear that that is exactly what has happened, or there would've been no need for a rebalancing/nerf of those items. Would there. (that's a statement, not question, by the way )
I don't care how DPSers get their numbers... I do care that DPSers don't care that their fun negatively impacts others. If y'all can't even acknowledge that fact and modify your behaviour accordingly, then I hope the devs keep swinging the nerf bat till everyone is brought down to the same level, and you can't use the DPS MegaBuild, because all the fancy stuff has been totally neutered
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I don't even know what any of you are arguing about anymore, I don't think anyone knows what each other was originally stating! None of this thread makes sense now.
Comments
> @meimeitoo said:
> patrickngo wrote: »
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> in the case of the Leech, this change isn't the first time it's been changed. on release, it was even WORSE, and it got reduced, and when they introduced Reputations, they had to add code to prevent it from interacting with MACO shields which were now suddenly available across factions, so it's not been 'untouched' for seven years. far from it, the present paradigm came about because (again) they added stuff that interacted with it in ways they didn't account for-only now it was available to Fed players with ships that could genuinely abuse how it works thanks to the introduction of masteries.
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> Not sure about Masteries per se, but they generally did let DrainX get out of hand a bit. Like with the Terran Space Set. Maybe they meant for you to just use the DrainX to siphon power from NPC's, and not necessarily to primarily boost your own power levels? But I never understand why they're acting so suprised then, as they made that stuff themselves. In a bizarre twist of events, I'd rather CrypticSpartan be a permanent part of the team then, so they won't let get things out of hand in the first place: then no one will feel 'cheated' afterwards. Somehow I suspect that will conflict with their business model, though.[/quote]
(Not sure why its using reddit like markdown now and I can't figure out how to fix it)
I believe the Max in combat DrainX Skill you can obtain is now something like 1050, it is rather quite absurd. My Drain Boat is seeing 950 in combat without any special BOffs or Fleet buffs and is lacking +35.5 from a console set.
For some reason, if you post to Forums from your mobile, they don't accept the quote /quote (in square brackets) as it's done in PC, but rather do the quoting with that "reddit-like markdown" as you described it.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Well said. Sometimes sacrifices by some higher end players have to be made to keep the game fun for the majority... without whom there would be no game.
The nerf-power creep cycle that some are worried about is indeed largely caused by some of the same people who are worried about it. By pretending that things were fine for way too long, things were getting worse with every new lockbox and ship release. Meaning that when the ever more needed corrections finally came, those corrections were of a much larger magnitude of course.
To those who are concerned about this, I would therefore say: let's try to make sure things don't get out of hand in the first place. Don't use exploits, don't wave around ridiculous DPS results, don't try to solo public instances that are meant for more players that also want to enjoy them. Basically, show some consideration towards other players or, as I've said before while quoting a certain alien accusing a certain captain, look beyond the bow of your own starship.
Of course Cryptic has a responsibility here too.
Now, if everyone takes his or her responsibility, then we may be able to avoid the need for future corrections. Cycles such as the power creep - nerf cycle are usually not nice. The fact that it's a cycle also means, however, that you can try to break it at different locations. Meaning that the players should not just expect Cryptic to do their part (not releasing OP stuff and not adding power creep) but that they themselves also have the ability to prevent the cycle from forming.
It's too easy to just blame one side of the cycle and its actors here; no one forces you to use stuff that anyone with something of a reasonable attitude can expect to be corrected at some point. So rather than min-maxing, or chasing ever higher numbers, just play the game with some self-restraint. It's not like you need over 100k DPS to complete the majority of the game content, so don't be too surprised if it's taken away eventually. Even if you do not understand the motivation behind it or lack the attitude needed to admit that corrections may be necessary sometimes, most of you/us have been here long enough to know that corrections like these were coming at some point.
This cannot be due to the corrections only though. The ground rebalancing was done a significant time before the space part was addressed. After the ground rebalancing, there was still a reasonable amount of activity in the ground queues; I barely noticed a difference in fact. Only after the space corrections were applied, did the activity in the ground queues drop.
That may be because many players stopped playing the queues, but I doubt that is the only reason. Cause why would someone who prefers ground queues, be concerned about corrections w.r.t. the space part of the game? I think it's a combination of Risa, a lack of new purely PvE content, little new things in terms of rewards and only a minor role for the rebalancing, which arguably only affected the higher ranking players. Most people are probably also planning their vacation, finishing school etc. I'm sure we'll see more activity within a few weeks, especially when the new season launches.
If Cryptic manages to come up with something unique, something that's different than a system that will give out extra rewards for playing the same content in a slightly different manner, it would be even better. An exporation system, if implemented well, can be such an unique thing if done well.
That's why I'm also thinking that more is needed to address this issue. Unique rewards (such as we had for the old STF queues with unique uniforms), and better rewards for missions that have multiple objectives.
And probably a shift away from just adding ships that can only be used to play the same content for the 100th time. Maybe they could focus more on promoting truly different ways of playing, like species with unique abilities or a new career (something that goes beyond the specialisations which are just nice add-ons on the same old careers). Even smaller things like more episode content could be a nice way of getting more official content. Why is so little done with the Foundry for example? There are countless well written missions in there, if we saw a bit more promotion and maybe even a chance to have a foundry mission appear as an official featured episode, that would also likely boost the numbers significantly.
It wouldn't necessarily solve the issue of the queues, but perhaps the queues themselves are a problem because there's little variety in them. Making sure that players can at least do different things (like playing new Foundry-based featured episodes) between repeating the same queue can definitely help. More variety within queues (random events, a new enemy, different enemies which probably makes Borg Disconnected a bit more popular than the average queue) would also be a good thing.
That’s one sacrifice that had to be made…
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Someone shoot Daniels for me please.
So basically you're telling that fun of many players is wrong and they shouldn't play the game how they like?
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
That's knowledge most of us here should possess. What you or anyone else do(es) with that knowledge, is up to you/them.
And to answer your question a bit more specifically: what is sustainable is not just related to the amount of fun player A derives from playing the game; but also the degree to which player A's fun impedes on player B-Z's ablity to have fun. Hence the 'play with consideration for other players' advice because if that is done, it will give Cryptic less reason to come up with balance checks.
Some people got their happy on schadenfreude because the top DPS people lost a bit of numbers...betraying their jealousy to the DPS chasers even while they claim not to care. But pretending as if going down from roach-extermination with 20 megaton nukes to roach-extermination with 10 megaton nukes makes a difference for the game is just lame.
Cryptic nerfed our roach-nukes a bit, so they can keep selling even bigger ones. That's all.
Personally, I've mostly stopped running those two the past week or two. I've been mostly spending my time in Hive or Korfez runs with friends in TSC or Aggronauts. Sometimes we do premades too for ISA or KSA/CSA or whatever space run they're doing. The KMU event was refreshing as well (ran just that almost the entire weekend). I wish that event ran longer.
I grew tired of PUGging with all the complaints people are saying here and other threads about how "DPS'ers ruin their fun" so I decided to leave them so that they can enjoy their runs better.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
How considerate of you. I have heard one does not need much DPS anyway to beat advanced space maps. The players left in those will do fine.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Some of them will be fine...
But I am sure others will be "unwinnable". My last 2 PUGs were in a KSA where the 4 other players took over a minute to get the Valdore down to 99%. It healed back up to 100% after decloaking. The other was a CSA where they took over a minute again to get it down to 97% or so.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Well, official average time to complete ISA (according to PvE Queues window) is 20 minutes.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Groundhogs Day this is not, as nothing is getting better as the same 'day' keeps replaying itself.
Time for a mercy killing badmoon.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That, is a complex question (as in the fallacy of the same name, not a difficult question to answer
tl;dr - Yes
More nuanced response - As risian said; show some restraint. It's hardly an unreasonable request, or a difficult one to understand, is it.
I put my hands up to it: My name's Kek, and I have min/maxer tendencies...
I like to optimize my builds. But only to a certain extent. As pretty as the ultra rare icon frame is, I prefer the very rare purple. I find it easy on my eyes, and I find the Epic gold a bit overwhelming. So I'm not fussed about getting everything at Epic quality. I'm curious to try kemocite, although knowing it's a shadow of its former self, I wonder if it's worth the spend just for curiosity's sake.
I can't see myself spending out on exploiter and locator consoles though, I don't need to get those kind of results. I wouldn't take a DPS MegaBuild into a RedAlert pug and melt the map: I've been irritated by that happening too many times, to ever consider inflicting the same irritation on another player.
Sure, I might have a Kelvin Dreadnought (and I'm sure there are better ships than that as well) but I'm only using vr quality stuffz and no fancy exploiter/locator consoles. The only ur consoles it does have, is the rcs accelerator to kick the turn rate (got it upto 21.2 degrees per second) into something a bit less cumbersome
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
So you're saying you like to be a TRIBBLE player. Nothing wrong in itself with that, but suggesting that *everyone else* also needs to be as poor player is simply idiotic.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
You're going on a first date with someone who has said they aren't a very strong swimmer. You don't chuck them off a boat into the lake.
You're going to get your freak on with someone who clearly says they don't like [insert act of choice here] But you still do [insert act of choice here] anyway. Is that a good thing to do? Or a douchey thing to do?
You're again deliberately ignoring the point(s) about extreme DPS having come about through obsessive scrutiny of game mechanics, and finding out what bizzare and/or unintended combinations and/or mechanics, for some reason give high results, and that using High DPS MegaBuilds negatively impacts the experience of anyone unfortunate enough to be caught in the blast radius.
I'm happy to be an AVERAGE player. Like I said, I do have min/maxer tendencies, but I don't go OTT with it, nor would I ever (if I ever had one) take a DPS MegaBuild into a public pug, because I can appreciate that it would spoil the experience for those other players.
Why is this such a hard concept or people to be grasping?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Except those analogies are terrible.
And yet again you demonstrate total lack of knowledge about DPSers and how they do their numbers.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
So no DPSer has ever exploited the mechanics of consoles like exploiters, locators, kemo, leech, etc etc?? I'm not even going to ask 'yes or no', because it's clear that that is exactly what has happened, or there would've been no need for a rebalancing/nerf of those items. Would there. (that's a statement, not question, by the way
I don't care how DPSers get their numbers... I do care that DPSers don't care that their fun negatively impacts others. If y'all can't even acknowledge that fact and modify your behaviour accordingly, then I hope the devs keep swinging the nerf bat till everyone is brought down to the same level, and you can't use the DPS MegaBuild, because all the fancy stuff has been totally neutered
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
+1, totally agree!