OP is not bound by some forum equality etiquette where if he mentions X, he is required to mention Y, "just because".
It doesn't work like that, and he is under no obligation to do so.
i'm not claiming the OP is obligated to do anything. but I am still asking him (and anyone else brave enough to answer) a question:
why are you only concerned with how a female character looks?
why have I never once seen a thread saying a male character isn't handsome enough?
of course no one will be brave enough to answer that question.
Because you haven't looked hard enough, there have been plenty of threads asking for clothing and hair options for male characters, some even asking for female clothing/make up selections to be made available to male characters.
Which I have no problem with, if that's the way the specific player wants to see their character. IDIC
i do thank you for making a real response without name calling. but you are talking about a different issue than me. you are talking about more visual options for player characters. i am asking if anyone has ever posted a thread saying the appearance of a male NPC character needs to be improved, in the same way the OP did with Elisa Flores. have you ever seen such a thread?
Not that I can recall. (wouldn't surprise me though if there'd been a few).
However, "I think" I remember one thread where someone claimed Tovan was too handsome. But perhaps that was just a Bait thread, since people don't seem to like Tovan very much.
I know what you're saying, but I think you're maybe misunderstanding what OP was saying.
He wasn't calling her ugly or unattractive necessarily, as he has already stated. He was pointing out a discrepancy that exists between certain face characteristics, being that Flores' default face seems blocky and jagged in comparison with other NPC's.
And I would say he has a point.
The newer characters are super refined, and their features (even unattractive ones) blend in a lot more then in her case for some reason.
I mean, I never had a huge issue with it, but I did notice something strange about her features. In my case, I changed her haircut and that seemed to help.
In OP's case he went a little deeper to get her to look "right" to him.
And sure, it may be misconstrued into and ugly/pretty thing, but I think its a more substantial complaint then purely a beauty issue.
The newer characters in comparison look more refined and appear more realistic imo.
Perhaps, Flores wasn't as badly refined as I remember, I'll have to take another look at her tonight with the new lighting. But I do remember thinking that there was indeed something "odd" about her. Might've just been the haircut in my case.
why have I never once seen a thread saying a male character isn't handsome enough?
of course no one will be brave enough to answer that question.
There is actually a real answer to that question, and I will give it to you.
We are, all of us(myself included) programmed/brainwashed by culture and entertainment to pay more attention to how a woman looks than to a man looks. We are not given a choice in the matter, by the people who run the entertainment industries. We are not asked as a child "do you want be brainwashed, or not?", we just are.
So we are not to blame for the fact that we have been programmed our entire lives to prioritize female appearance over male. However, and there is a big "but" here: we do have a choice.
We can choose to fight against and break out of that mentality, or stay in it. The person who posted this thread stated he has never seen a male character in game who was not "well presented" and only takes issue with how certain female characters look. It sounds like someone isnt' fighting their programming.
OP is not bound by some forum equality etiquette where if he mentions X, he is required to mention Y, "just because".
It doesn't work like that, and he is under no obligation to do so.
I'm not claiming the OP is obligated to do anything. But I am still asking him (and anyone else brave enough to answer) a question: why are you only concerned with how a female character looks? Why have I never once seen a thread saying a male character isn't handsome enough? Of course no one will be brave enough to answer that question.
Maybe all of the males are fine?
More seriously, the answer depends wildly on the person in question. There is no universal answer to your question, and any demands for such an answer are foolish at best and deliberate derailment at worst. (Amusingly, Marcus' thread can be seen as somewhat hypocritical after the Miral Paris thing, but given his stance, I imagine that's more 'unfortunate timing' than 'genuine hypocrisy'.)
I may sometimes be 'contradictory', but one thing I am not, and cannot stand, is a hypocrite/hypocrisy...
The difference is ultimately in the finer details. I was just remarking on how it can look hypocritical if you fail to notice those details (and possibly exaggerate others, like some of the wording in your OP). Hence, unfortunate timing.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
OP is not bound by some forum equality etiquette where if he mentions X, he is required to mention Y, "just because".
It doesn't work like that, and he is under no obligation to do so.
i'm not claiming the OP is obligated to do anything. but I am still asking him (and anyone else brave enough to answer) a question:
why are you only concerned with how a female character looks?
why have I never once seen a thread saying a male character isn't handsome enough?
of course no one will be brave enough to answer that question.
Because you haven't looked hard enough, there have been plenty of threads asking for clothing and hair options for male characters, some even asking for female clothing/make up selections to be made available to male characters.
Which I have no problem with, if that's the way the specific player wants to see their character. IDIC
i do thank you for making a real response without name calling. but you are talking about a different issue than me. you are talking about more visual options for player characters. i am asking if anyone has ever posted a thread saying the appearance of a male NPC character needs to be improved, in the same way the OP did with Elisa Flores. have you ever seen such a thread?
Not that I can recall. (wouldn't surprise me though if there'd been a few).
However, "I think" I remember one thread where someone claimed Tovan was too handsome. But perhaps that was just a Bait thread, since people don't seem to like Tovan very much.
I know what you're saying, but I think you're maybe misunderstanding what OP was saying.
He wasn't calling her ugly or unattractive necessarily, as he has already stated. He was pointing out a discrepancy that exists between certain face characteristics, being that Flores' default face seems blocky and jagged in comparison with other NPC's.
And I would say he has a point.
The newer characters are super refined, and their features (even unattractive ones) blend in a lot more then in her case for some reason.
I mean, I never had a huge issue with it, but I did notice something strange about her features. In my case, I changed her haircut and that seemed to help.
In OP's case he went a little deeper to get her to look "right" to him.
And sure, it may be misconstrued into and ugly/pretty thing, but I think its a more substantial complaint then purely a beauty issue.
The newer characters in comparison look more refined and appear more realistic imo.
Perhaps, Flores wasn't as badly refined as I remember, I'll have to take another look at her tonight with the new lighting. But I do remember thinking that there was indeed something "odd" about her. Might've just been the haircut in my case.
Thank you for again reiterating the points I was making, rather than what umformtechnik is trying to pretend I said, and then take exception with... I wonder if the difference between the older and more recent characters, may be a change in staff, and someone now doing character design, who either has more of a knack for it, or who simply puts more effort in to creating better-presented toons
We can choose to fight against and break out of that mentality, or stay in it. The person who posted this thread stated he has never seen a male character in game who was not "well presented" and only takes issue with how certain female characters look. It sounds like someone isnt' fighting their programming.
Or you can stop it with the tinfoil hat nonsense and look at what I said: There is no universal answer.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Actually, all I needed to do with Flores to make her look better was slap the "Long" hair option on her. Bam, marked improvement in almost no time.
My issue is that I really can't stand many of the hair options the game offers. I especially dislike the short/medium options. They don't look good at all imo.
I'll use 4 different cuts on all my toons;
Long/Ponytail Standard/Ponytail with bangs/Ponytail with longer bangs.
I have never really found ANY of the other hair choices appealing at all but that's just my opinion.
I don't know, there's a few of the short/close ones that are okay. I like the bob haircut that's similar to Ensign Ro's from TNG... only without the hairband. (Something that I still say should be added to the game as a 'head' option). It's all a matter of personal taste, I suppose. I did have a fondness for, I think it was Short 01 or Short 03, the one that was neck-length and swooped down along the right side of the head (putting it in a perfect position to hide part of the Seven of Nine implants on a character that I was just wanting the eyepiece as a 'synaptic transceiver' on) until it developed a glitch and part of it stopped showing up right...
Actually yeah, that's one of the few short options I like.
And the T'Pol cuts are not bad either.
But yeah, you're mostly right. I think it's because most of the shorter hair options (and the pigtails, for that matter) seem to make a character using them appear... childish? would be the word?
On the pigtails, yeah, that sums it up nicely.
Although, my buddy has a very nice Sailor Moon character where the pigtails work great.
One of the best character representations I've seen in game. She really nailed the Sailor Moon.
My Supergirl characterization is pretty great also if I can toot my own horn, but doesn't hold a candle to some other character representations I've seen in game. @rattler2 has got some great character outfits as well.
why have I never once seen a thread saying a male character isn't handsome enough?
of course no one will be brave enough to answer that question.
There is actually a real answer to that question, and I will give it to you.
We are, all of us(myself included) programmed/brainwashed by culture and entertainment to pay more attention to how a woman looks than to a man looks. We are not given a choice in the matter, by the people who run the entertainment industries. We are not asked as a child "do you want be brainwashed, or not?", we just are.
So we are not to blame for the fact that we have been programmed our entire lives to prioritize female appearance over male. However, and there is a big "but" here: we do have a choice.
We can choose to fight against and break out of that mentality, or stay in it. The person who posted this thread stated he has never seen a male character in game who was not "well presented" and only takes issue with how certain female characters look. It sounds like someone isnt' fighting their programming.
As I said to your SJW friend: Do Not Twist My Words. If you want to discuss me, do it privately, rather than derailing my thread.
I repeat; Tom Paris and Harry Kim actually Look Like Robert Duncan McNeill and Garrett Wang. They are Well Presented ( ie a well refined presentation which clearly had effort put into said presentation) Seven of Nine, on the other hand, does not really accurstely recreate Jeri Ryan's features, merely approximates them, due to limits where the character tailor cannot move eyes closer/further apart because the slider will not move any further in the required direction. Because the characters are well presented, there is no need to further refine them (as I believe Miral was revised and refined)
That Elisa's default hairstyle (and uniform) has been changed, there is no reason why her features could not be similarly refined to reflect the higher-quality work going into other toons (of both genders)
We can choose to fight against and break out of that mentality, or stay in it. The person who posted this thread stated he has never seen a male character in game who was not "well presented" and only takes issue with how certain female characters look. It sounds like someone isnt' fighting their programming.
Or you can stop it with the tinfoil hat nonsense and look at what I said: There is no universal answer.
Tinfoil hats have nothing to do with it. There is a myriad of both scientific and marketing study showing stats on female objectification vs male objectification. Unfortunately, science deniers don't acknowledge facts.
@taylor1701d : Looks like we have the same friend who created that ridiculously awesome Sailor Moon character (and many others). Her toon customization artistry is just amazing.
why have I never once seen a thread saying a male character isn't handsome enough?
of course no one will be brave enough to answer that question.
There is actually a real answer to that question, and I will give it to you.
We are, all of us(myself included) programmed/brainwashed by culture and entertainment to pay more attention to how a woman looks than to a man looks. We are not given a choice in the matter, by the people who run the entertainment industries. We are not asked as a child "do you want be brainwashed, or not?", we just are.
So we are not to blame for the fact that we have been programmed our entire lives to prioritize female appearance over male. However, and there is a big "but" here: we do have a choice.
We can choose to fight against and break out of that mentality, or stay in it. The person who posted this thread stated he has never seen a male character in game who was not "well presented" and only takes issue with how certain female characters look. It sounds like someone isnt' fighting their programming.
As I said to your SJW friend: Do Not Twist My Words. If you want to discuss me, do it privately, rather than derailing my thread.
I repeat; Tom Paris and Harry Kim actually Look Like Robert Duncan McNeill and Garrett Wang. They are Well Presented ( ie a well refined presentation which clearly had effort put into said presentation) Seven of Nine, on the other hand, does not really accurstely recreate Jeri Ryan's features, merely approximates them, due to limits where the character tailor cannot move eyes closer/further apart because the slider will not move any further in the required direction. Because the characters are well presented, there is no need to further refine them (as I believe Miral was revised and refined)
That Elisa's default hairstyle (and uniform) has been changed, there is no reason why her features could not be similarly refined to reflect the higher-quality work going into other toons (of both genders)
You are conflating 2 different issues. Elisa Flores is not based on a RL actor, yet you still think her looks are not up to your standards. How closely Tom Paris resembles Robert Duncan has nothing to do with that. Elisa Flores is an original character in STO. There are alots of male original characters too. But why are not saying any of the male original characters need improvement, only the female?
@taylor1701d : Looks like we have the same friend who created that ridiculously awesome Sailor Moon character (and many others). Her toon customization artistry is just amazing.
We can choose to fight against and break out of that mentality, or stay in it. The person who posted this thread stated he has never seen a male character in game who was not "well presented" and only takes issue with how certain female characters look. It sounds like someone isnt' fighting their programming.
Or you can stop it with the tinfoil hat nonsense and look at what I said: There is no universal answer.
Tinfoil hats have nothing to do with it. There is a myriad of both scientific and marketing study showing stats on female objectification vs male objectification. Unfortunately, science deniers don't acknowledge facts.
This has very little to do with 'science denial'. This is you putting words into Marcus' mouth (or, should I say, thoughts into his brain) based on the assumption that he has been 'programmed' rather than considering the possibility that there might be an alternative explanation for why he's picking on Flores specifically. This is you mistaking educated guesswork (statistical data is exactly that, statistical) for hard facts about a specific individual's psyche.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
I consider the haircut as being more fitting from someone who has gone from being a cadet (not a student, but a military cadet) to a commissioned officer in a position of responsibility, and thus with a certain professional image to maintain...
But Flores is in Starfleet not a military, she's gone from a student (a cadet, yes, but not a military one) to an officer in Starfleet.
I know the idea is for us to be able to customize our characters as we want, but at the end of the day, these are supposed to be Officers, and thus, to paraphrase Captain Jellico, maintain a certailevel of professionalism. I'm sure that modern militaries have a guideline against 'eccentric haircuts', and the Punk style, definitely qualifies as thus
I don't know if you've seen Star Trek or not but please point to a single character who's hair is military grade? I can think of Sisko and The Doctor but only because they're both bald, maybe Kira a bit later on when her hair was less poofy. Even Kirk's TOS hair is too long, his film hair might not be though and possibly Seven.
The punk style is no different from the idiotic crossweave thing that Rand wore in TOS. Starfleet has a uniform code, it dosn't have a appearance code.
I'm not telling you to use the punk hair (I don't because it dosn't fit my aesthetic), I'm just saying the reason you give for not doing so is spurious.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I consider the haircut as being more fitting from someone who has gone from being a cadet (not a student, but a military cadet) to a commissioned officer in a position of responsibility, and thus with a certain professional image to maintain...
But Flores is in Starfleet not a military, she's gone from a student (a cadet, yes, but not a military one) to an officer in Starfleet.
I know the idea is for us to be able to customize our characters as we want, but at the end of the day, these are supposed to be Officers, and thus, to paraphrase Captain Jellico, maintain a certailevel of professionalism. I'm sure that modern militaries have a guideline against 'eccentric haircuts', and the Punk style, definitely qualifies as thus
I don't know if you've seen Star Trek or not but please point to a single character who's hair is military grade? I can think of Sisko and The Doctor but only because they're both bald, maybe Kira a bit later on when her hair was less poofy. Even Kirk's TOS hair is too long, his film hair might not be though and possibly Seven.
The punk style is no different from the idiotic crossweave thing that Rand wore in TOS. Starfleet has a uniform code, it dosn't have a appearance code.
I'm not telling you to use the punk hair (I don't because it dosn't fit my aesthetic), I'm just saying the reason you give for not doing so is spurious.
He does have a point, though. That haircut does not look like that of a mature, professional individual whose actions may or may not be responsible for the lives or deaths of countless people. She looks more like a kid trying to pretend she's in Starfleet.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
I consider the haircut as being more fitting from someone who has gone from being a cadet (not a student, but a military cadet) to a commissioned officer in a position of responsibility, and thus with a certain professional image to maintain...
But Flores is in Starfleet not a military, she's gone from a student (a cadet, yes, but not a military one) to an officer in Starfleet.
I know the idea is for us to be able to customize our characters as we want, but at the end of the day, these are supposed to be Officers, and thus, to paraphrase Captain Jellico, maintain a certailevel of professionalism. I'm sure that modern militaries have a guideline against 'eccentric haircuts', and the Punk style, definitely qualifies as thus
I don't know if you've seen Star Trek or not but please point to a single character who's hair is military grade? I can think of Sisko and The Doctor but only because they're both bald, maybe Kira a bit later on when her hair was less poofy. Even Kirk's TOS hair is too long, his film hair might not be though and possibly Seven.
The punk style is no different from the idiotic crossweave thing that Rand wore in TOS. Starfleet has a uniform code, it dosn't have a appearance code.
I'm not telling you to use the punk hair (I don't because it dosn't fit my aesthetic), I'm just saying the reason you give for not doing so is spurious.
He does have a point, though. That haircut does not look like that of a mature, professional individual whose actions may or may not be responsible for the lives or deaths of countless people. She looks more like a kid trying to pretend she's in Starfleet.
So did Rand. I'm not saying it's a good hairstyle, I'm saying it's not out of place in Starfleet.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
why have I never once seen a thread saying a male character isn't handsome enough?
of course no one will be brave enough to answer that question.
There is actually a real answer to that question, and I will give it to you.
We are, all of us(myself included) programmed/brainwashed by culture and entertainment to pay more attention to how a woman looks than to a man looks. We are not given a choice in the matter, by the people who run the entertainment industries. We are not asked as a child "do you want be brainwashed, or not?", we just are.
So we are not to blame for the fact that we have been programmed our entire lives to prioritize female appearance over male. However, and there is a big "but" here: we do have a choice.
We can choose to fight against and break out of that mentality, or stay in it. The person who posted this thread stated he has never seen a male character in game who was not "well presented" and only takes issue with how certain female characters look. It sounds like someone isnt' fighting their programming.
As I said to your SJW friend: Do Not Twist My Words. If you want to discuss me, do it privately, rather than derailing my thread.
I repeat; Tom Paris and Harry Kim actually Look Like Robert Duncan McNeill and Garrett Wang. They are Well Presented ( ie a well refined presentation which clearly had effort put into said presentation) Seven of Nine, on the other hand, does not really accurstely recreate Jeri Ryan's features, merely approximates them, due to limits where the character tailor cannot move eyes closer/further apart because the slider will not move any further in the required direction. Because the characters are well presented, there is no need to further refine them (as I believe Miral was revised and refined)
That Elisa's default hairstyle (and uniform) has been changed, there is no reason why her features could not be similarly refined to reflect the higher-quality work going into other toons (of both genders)
You are conflating 2 different issues. Elisa Flores is not based on a RL actor, yet you still think her looks are not up to your standards. How closely Tom Paris resembles Robert Duncan has nothing to do with that. Elisa Flores is an original character in STO. There are alots of male original characters too. But why are not saying any of the male original characters need improvement, only the female?
- Regardless of if Elisa is based on a RL actor, the point is that other NPCs are Better Realized than she has been. Example: The characters in GTA V are Better Realized than the characters in GTA:San Andreas. I used the examples of Tom and Harry as examples of the characters being Well Realized in a way which Elisa is Not. Other posters have also understood the point I was making and agreed that she is not as Well Realized as others.
- Because (as I already illustrated in this response) those other characters have already been Well Finalized...
Like your SJW friend, you are falsely attempting to attribute gender bias and sexism, into my motives where none exists. Gender never came into my thought of why a character could be improved... Just that A Character, has not been as Well Presented or updated As Other Characters Have Been, and thus could be improved should the devs choose to do so... Unlike your SJW friend and their whinge about Miral's animation, I actually offered an immediate and direct alternative for consideration. I did not say 'Elisa is ugly, MAKE HER PRETTY!!!1', I pointed out (with comparison to Miral from Post One) that there is simply room for improvement (like the other characters have had) and then took the time to actually make that alternative and offer it for consideration. If you don't like it, fine. If you don't like what I've written, fine. But don't have the entitlement or arrogance to think that your questions need answering. I have indulged you on this occasion, because it suited me to do so.
I have now explained myself to the extent which I am prepared to, despite being under no obligation to explain or justify myself to You or Anyone Else... Any further requests for 'clarification', or your own version of what you think you can try and twist my words to mean, will be ignored, and reported as trolling.
As the allegation of sexism has been made, I would like to present the following as proof that I put just as much time and effort into making my male toons look good, as I do my female ones...
Makirto: My first Klingon. I was aiming for the kind of vibe Worf had in Encounter at Fairpoint: Clean, presentable, professional. The raw BOFF received was obese, and frankly ugly. I would like to think I've made something good out of the 'raw clay'
My take on K'Gan: Again, aiming for a look of a young, presentable individual. Facial features were based upon (although it is hard to tell in a bearded Klingon) Stephen Moyer...
Khoq: Based on Michael Ealy (who I consider to be a very handsome man (and phenomenal actor) as closely as the character tailor would allow...
Illya Grigoryevich: Originally going to be a 'middle of each slider' generic figure to use as a low-level feeder account, I felt that what was forming resembled Armie Hammer in his portrayal of Illya Kuryakin, so I tried to then deliberately emulate that. I would say that this is a handsome character, based on a handsome man, who I made as well as I could...
Sam: As this is a cadet, I was going for 'fresh-faced', and wound up with what I feel has a young-Chris Pratt vibe (ish)
I consider the haircut as being more fitting from someone who has gone from being a cadet (not a student, but a military cadet) to a commissioned officer in a position of responsibility, and thus with a certain professional image to maintain...
But Flores is in Starfleet not a military, she's gone from a student (a cadet, yes, but not a military one) to an officer in Starfleet.
I know the idea is for us to be able to customize our characters as we want, but at the end of the day, these are supposed to be Officers, and thus, to paraphrase Captain Jellico, maintain a certailevel of professionalism. I'm sure that modern militaries have a guideline against 'eccentric haircuts', and the Punk style, definitely qualifies as thus
I don't know if you've seen Star Trek or not but please point to a single character who's hair is military grade? I can think of Sisko and The Doctor but only because they're both bald, maybe Kira a bit later on when her hair was less poofy. Even Kirk's TOS hair is too long, his film hair might not be though and possibly Seven.
The punk style is no different from the idiotic crossweave thing that Rand wore in TOS. Starfleet has a uniform code, it dosn't have a appearance code.
I'm not telling you to use the punk hair (I don't because it dosn't fit my aesthetic), I'm just saying the reason you give for not doing so is spurious.
He does have a point, though. That haircut does not look like that of a mature, professional individual whose actions may or may not be responsible for the lives or deaths of countless people. She looks more like a kid trying to pretend she's in Starfleet.
So did Rand. I'm not saying it's a good hairstyle, I'm saying it's not out of place in Starfleet.
I consider the haircut as being more fitting from someone who has gone from being a cadet (not a student, but a military cadet) to a commissioned officer in a position of responsibility, and thus with a certain professional image to maintain...
But Flores is in Starfleet not a military, she's gone from a student (a cadet, yes, but not a military one) to an officer in Starfleet.
I know the idea is for us to be able to customize our characters as we want, but at the end of the day, these are supposed to be Officers, and thus, to paraphrase Captain Jellico, maintain a certailevel of professionalism. I'm sure that modern militaries have a guideline against 'eccentric haircuts', and the Punk style, definitely qualifies as thus
I don't know if you've seen Star Trek or not but please point to a single character who's hair is military grade? I can think of Sisko and The Doctor but only because they're both bald, maybe Kira a bit later on when her hair was less poofy. Even Kirk's TOS hair is too long, his film hair might not be though and possibly Seven.
The punk style is no different from the idiotic crossweave thing that Rand wore in TOS. Starfleet has a uniform code, it dosn't have a appearance code.
I'm not telling you to use the punk hair (I don't because it dosn't fit my aesthetic), I'm just saying the reason you give for not doing so is spurious.
I consider the haircut as being more fitting from someone who has gone from being a cadet (not a student, but a military cadet) to a commissioned officer in a position of responsibility, and thus with a certain professional image to maintain...
But Flores is in Starfleet not a military, she's gone from a student (a cadet, yes, but not a military one) to an officer in Starfleet.
I know the idea is for us to be able to customize our characters as we want, but at the end of the day, these are supposed to be Officers, and thus, to paraphrase Captain Jellico, maintain a certailevel of professionalism. I'm sure that modern militaries have a guideline against 'eccentric haircuts', and the Punk style, definitely qualifies as thus
I don't know if you've seen Star Trek or not but please point to a single character who's hair is military grade? I can think of Sisko and The Doctor but only because they're both bald, maybe Kira a bit later on when her hair was less poofy. Even Kirk's TOS hair is too long, his film hair might not be though and possibly Seven.
The punk style is no different from the idiotic crossweave thing that Rand wore in TOS. Starfleet has a uniform code, it dosn't have a appearance code.
I'm not telling you to use the punk hair (I don't because it dosn't fit my aesthetic), I'm just saying the reason you give for not doing so is spurious.
He does have a point, though. That haircut does not look like that of a mature, professional individual whose actions may or may not be responsible for the lives or deaths of countless people. She looks more like a kid trying to pretend she's in Starfleet.
So did Rand. I'm not saying it's a good hairstyle, I'm saying it's not out of place in Starfleet.
I'm not dragging the thread further off-topic with going into the debate of 'is Starfleet a military'. The point, is the distinction that cadets are not hipsters at college, but officers in training...
Janice Rand's beehive... I can see your point, it can certainly be considered 'an eccentric hairstyle', but is not only a practical one (in so much as it keeps A Lot of hair above shoulder-length and out of Janice's way while working) it is also an excellent example that as she got older and progressed through her career, her hairstyle also altered to reflect that maturity...
As the allegation of sexism has been made, I would like to present the following as proof that I put just as much time and effort into making my male toons look good, as I do my female ones...
I didn't see any "sexism" in your post, but now I am curious about something. since you obviously do put just as much time and effort into your male character's looks as your female, why did you only want to discuss improving a female character's looks with this thread? would not a person who views appearance as equally important to both genders want to show case improvements made to both genders, not just one? I mean, i know you have done it now, but I'm just trying to understand your thinking when you posted this thread, not what you did after people started making drama.
If other characters needed improving (male or female) then yes... IMHO, they don't, hense why I only made the observation about a character who could be improved upon should anyone wish to do so. To go back to the other game analogy: Elisa is San Andreas, Miral is GTA V (and proof of what can be done with the character tailor with a little time and effort) The devs spend enough time tweaking settings, removing clothing options, adding differences in lighting etc (and have altered Elisa's coding in the past) that there's no reason that they couldn't give her a makeover and bring her up to the level of the more recent characters. As above, I wasn't saying that Elisa was Bad, just that they clearly have the capability to now make her Better (if they wanted) and offered a revised setting layout to not only save them the effort, but to prove what is possible...
As the allegation of sexism has been made, I would like to present the following as proof that I put just as much time and effort into making my male toons look good, as I do my female ones...
Makirto: My first Klingon. I was aiming for the kind of vibe Worf had in Encounter at Fairpoint: Clean, presentable, professional. The raw BOFF received was obese, and frankly ugly. I would like to think I've made something good out of the 'raw clay'
As the allegation of sexism has been made, I would like to present the following as proof that I put just as much time and effort into making my male toons look good, as I do my female ones...
Makirto: My first Klingon. I was aiming for the kind of vibe Worf had in Encounter at Fairpoint: Clean, presentable, professional. The raw BOFF received was obese, and frankly ugly. I would like to think I've made something good out of the 'raw clay'
Another thought, about what makes a 'professional' looking hair cut: we must remember that Starfleet is made up of many different species with many different versions of what is professional or military standard on their planets. If a Klingon with dreadlocks is professional, then it would be discrimination to same a human with dreadlocks could not be professional too.
I'd say 'professional' means 'tidy'... Dreadlocks can be worn to look tidy... In the instance of Makirto, I was looking to create a young man (he was originally a cadet, like Sam, who, as I progressed through missions, continuously impressed me to the point that after Nimbus III, I felt I could headcanon enough time passing to justify him becoming a commissioned officer) who is still a bit 'spit and polish' in his presentation (possibly even trying to be an example to others not just as an officer, but that 'being a Klingon' doesn't have to mean 'unkempt')
Y'all keep feeding the trolls. You'll never give them an answer they're happy with, because their entire purpose in posting is to stir a pot and see what they can scrape up.
And now I want to get a screencap of my Klingon, Kirtok. I went for the "big&strong" route with him, as the concept I had of his character was someone who was almost as devoted to the (semimythical) "warrior ideal" Klingons are supposed to aspire to as Worf is. He's in a TOS-style tunic, but with no undershirt; instead, the Imperial badge on his shoulder is branded directly into his skin. He also keep his head shaved, as no hair means no grip for an opponent and nothing to float into his eyes should the gravity go out.
As for Ms Flores' default appearance, I find the default hairstyle excessively chunky and not at all complementary to her face. It punches up the angularity of her features, and the color looks like someone tried to dye their hair bright red and failed. Accordingly, I'll generally change out her hairstyle, as I presume she possesses a normal human degree of vanity and will not deliberately assume a style that suits her so ill.
And since the rest of the bridge crew tends to tilt nonhuman, I can't really assess their looks. What's "handsome" for a Saurian? What is the Bolian standard of feminine beauty? What about my Kobali engineer, or my Jem'Hadar tactical officer? Do they look good? And how can I know?
Comments
Not that I can recall. (wouldn't surprise me though if there'd been a few).
However, "I think" I remember one thread where someone claimed Tovan was too handsome. But perhaps that was just a Bait thread, since people don't seem to like Tovan very much.
I know what you're saying, but I think you're maybe misunderstanding what OP was saying.
He wasn't calling her ugly or unattractive necessarily, as he has already stated. He was pointing out a discrepancy that exists between certain face characteristics, being that Flores' default face seems blocky and jagged in comparison with other NPC's.
And I would say he has a point.
The newer characters are super refined, and their features (even unattractive ones) blend in a lot more then in her case for some reason.
I mean, I never had a huge issue with it, but I did notice something strange about her features. In my case, I changed her haircut and that seemed to help.
In OP's case he went a little deeper to get her to look "right" to him.
And sure, it may be misconstrued into and ugly/pretty thing, but I think its a more substantial complaint then purely a beauty issue.
The newer characters in comparison look more refined and appear more realistic imo.
Perhaps, Flores wasn't as badly refined as I remember, I'll have to take another look at her tonight with the new lighting. But I do remember thinking that there was indeed something "odd" about her. Might've just been the haircut in my case.
There is actually a real answer to that question, and I will give it to you.
We are, all of us(myself included) programmed/brainwashed by culture and entertainment to pay more attention to how a woman looks than to a man looks. We are not given a choice in the matter, by the people who run the entertainment industries. We are not asked as a child "do you want be brainwashed, or not?", we just are.
So we are not to blame for the fact that we have been programmed our entire lives to prioritize female appearance over male. However, and there is a big "but" here: we do have a choice.
We can choose to fight against and break out of that mentality, or stay in it. The person who posted this thread stated he has never seen a male character in game who was not "well presented" and only takes issue with how certain female characters look. It sounds like someone isnt' fighting their programming.
The difference is ultimately in the finer details. I was just remarking on how it can look hypocritical if you fail to notice those details (and possibly exaggerate others, like some of the wording in your OP). Hence, unfortunate timing.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Thank you for again reiterating the points I was making, rather than what umformtechnik is trying to pretend I said, and then take exception with... I wonder if the difference between the older and more recent characters, may be a change in staff, and someone now doing character design, who either has more of a knack for it, or who simply puts more effort in to creating better-presented toons
Or you can stop it with the tinfoil hat nonsense and look at what I said: There is no universal answer.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
On the pigtails, yeah, that sums it up nicely.
Although, my buddy has a very nice Sailor Moon character where the pigtails work great.
One of the best character representations I've seen in game. She really nailed the Sailor Moon.
My Supergirl characterization is pretty great also if I can toot my own horn, but doesn't hold a candle to some other character representations I've seen in game.
@rattler2 has got some great character outfits as well.
I repeat; Tom Paris and Harry Kim actually Look Like Robert Duncan McNeill and Garrett Wang. They are Well Presented ( ie a well refined presentation which clearly had effort put into said presentation) Seven of Nine, on the other hand, does not really accurstely recreate Jeri Ryan's features, merely approximates them, due to limits where the character tailor cannot move eyes closer/further apart because the slider will not move any further in the required direction. Because the characters are well presented, there is no need to further refine them (as I believe Miral was revised and refined)
That Elisa's default hairstyle (and uniform) has been changed, there is no reason why her features could not be similarly refined to reflect the higher-quality work going into other toons (of both genders)
Tinfoil hats have nothing to do with it. There is a myriad of both scientific and marketing study showing stats on female objectification vs male objectification. Unfortunately, science deniers don't acknowledge facts.
This is really close to how I usually tweak her appearance and it certainly seems "pretty enough" for me!
You are conflating 2 different issues. Elisa Flores is not based on a RL actor, yet you still think her looks are not up to your standards. How closely Tom Paris resembles Robert Duncan has nothing to do with that. Elisa Flores is an original character in STO. There are alots of male original characters too. But why are not saying any of the male original characters need improvement, only the female?
Oh yeah, she went above and beyond on that one.
This has very little to do with 'science denial'. This is you putting words into Marcus' mouth (or, should I say, thoughts into his brain) based on the assumption that he has been 'programmed' rather than considering the possibility that there might be an alternative explanation for why he's picking on Flores specifically. This is you mistaking educated guesswork (statistical data is exactly that, statistical) for hard facts about a specific individual's psyche.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
But Flores is in Starfleet not a military, she's gone from a student (a cadet, yes, but not a military one) to an officer in Starfleet.
I don't know if you've seen Star Trek or not but please point to a single character who's hair is military grade? I can think of Sisko and The Doctor but only because they're both bald, maybe Kira a bit later on when her hair was less poofy. Even Kirk's TOS hair is too long, his film hair might not be though and possibly Seven.
The punk style is no different from the idiotic crossweave thing that Rand wore in TOS. Starfleet has a uniform code, it dosn't have a appearance code.
I'm not telling you to use the punk hair (I don't because it dosn't fit my aesthetic), I'm just saying the reason you give for not doing so is spurious.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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He does have a point, though. That haircut does not look like that of a mature, professional individual whose actions may or may not be responsible for the lives or deaths of countless people. She looks more like a kid trying to pretend she's in Starfleet.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
So did Rand. I'm not saying it's a good hairstyle, I'm saying it's not out of place in Starfleet.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
- Regardless of if Elisa is based on a RL actor, the point is that other NPCs are Better Realized than she has been. Example: The characters in GTA V are Better Realized than the characters in GTA:San Andreas. I used the examples of Tom and Harry as examples of the characters being Well Realized in a way which Elisa is Not. Other posters have also understood the point I was making and agreed that she is not as Well Realized as others.
- Because (as I already illustrated in this response) those other characters have already been Well Finalized...
Like your SJW friend, you are falsely attempting to attribute gender bias and sexism, into my motives where none exists. Gender never came into my thought of why a character could be improved... Just that A Character, has not been as Well Presented or updated As Other Characters Have Been, and thus could be improved should the devs choose to do so... Unlike your SJW friend and their whinge about Miral's animation, I actually offered an immediate and direct alternative for consideration. I did not say 'Elisa is ugly, MAKE HER PRETTY!!!1', I pointed out (with comparison to Miral from Post One) that there is simply room for improvement (like the other characters have had) and then took the time to actually make that alternative and offer it for consideration. If you don't like it, fine. If you don't like what I've written, fine. But don't have the entitlement or arrogance to think that your questions need answering. I have indulged you on this occasion, because it suited me to do so.
I have now explained myself to the extent which I am prepared to, despite being under no obligation to explain or justify myself to You or Anyone Else... Any further requests for 'clarification', or your own version of what you think you can try and twist my words to mean, will be ignored, and reported as trolling.
Makirto: My first Klingon. I was aiming for the kind of vibe Worf had in Encounter at Fairpoint: Clean, presentable, professional. The raw BOFF received was obese, and frankly ugly. I would like to think I've made something good out of the 'raw clay'
My take on K'Gan: Again, aiming for a look of a young, presentable individual. Facial features were based upon (although it is hard to tell in a bearded Klingon) Stephen Moyer...
Khoq: Based on Michael Ealy (who I consider to be a very handsome man (and phenomenal actor) as closely as the character tailor would allow...
Illya Grigoryevich: Originally going to be a 'middle of each slider' generic figure to use as a low-level feeder account, I felt that what was forming resembled Armie Hammer in his portrayal of Illya Kuryakin, so I tried to then deliberately emulate that. I would say that this is a handsome character, based on a handsome man, who I made as well as I could...
Sam: As this is a cadet, I was going for 'fresh-faced', and wound up with what I feel has a young-Chris Pratt vibe (ish)
Janice Rand's beehive... I can see your point, it can certainly be considered 'an eccentric hairstyle', but is not only a practical one (in so much as it keeps A Lot of hair above shoulder-length and out of Janice's way while working) it is also an excellent example that as she got older and progressed through her career, her hairstyle also altered to reflect that maturity...
And now I want to get a screencap of my Klingon, Kirtok. I went for the "big&strong" route with him, as the concept I had of his character was someone who was almost as devoted to the (semimythical) "warrior ideal" Klingons are supposed to aspire to as Worf is. He's in a TOS-style tunic, but with no undershirt; instead, the Imperial badge on his shoulder is branded directly into his skin. He also keep his head shaved, as no hair means no grip for an opponent and nothing to float into his eyes should the gravity go out.
As for Ms Flores' default appearance, I find the default hairstyle excessively chunky and not at all complementary to her face. It punches up the angularity of her features, and the color looks like someone tried to dye their hair bright red and failed. Accordingly, I'll generally change out her hairstyle, as I presume she possesses a normal human degree of vanity and will not deliberately assume a style that suits her so ill.
And since the rest of the bridge crew tends to tilt nonhuman, I can't really assess their looks. What's "handsome" for a Saurian? What is the Bolian standard of feminine beauty? What about my Kobali engineer, or my Jem'Hadar tactical officer? Do they look good? And how can I know?