In the real world people who say they aren't afraid when they go into battle are liars or psycos neither of which I would trust to have my back when it matters.
Take the logic one step further. If this isn't an issue (because regardless of gender people fear death) then every situation where a character wasn't shivering in a the face of a weapon is a problem. So, should cryptic make a broad "everyone should be quaking in their boots!" update to the game? No, because that would be inconsistent with how most characters have been portrayed throughout the Star Trek series (ex. Sisko, Riker, Kirk, Worf, Kira, Torres, ect.)
The point here is that Miral Paris shouldn't be shaking because that is inconsistent with her character as elsewhere presented STO and VOY. One animation is out of place, that's all. If you want to justify that oversight under the blanket statement "Don't touch a thing because she's female!" (note how you didn't mention that it was this specific character, you only made it an issue of gender) that's fine. I can't stop certain things from being said on the internet. But, from your point of view, for that statement to mean anything you will have to keep that opinion up with the rest of the game from now on.
Again, are you personally going to input money or expertise to create a new animation? Because that is the same cowering animation used by every single cowering character in the game. Do you think the 'tapping foot whilst looking at watch' animation from DS9 would be better?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The fact that Miral is female, is irrelevant to everything... It's irrelevant to her serving as a Starfleet officer... It's irrelevant to her being the Kuvah'Magh... It's also irrelevant to the animation which was applied, because the same animation is not only used on male characters, but used inconsistently on male characters (Eraun) as I pointed out up-thread. Yet the OP made -- or rather, tried to make -- her gender a factor for consideration, by claiming that it is wrong for a 'strong female character' to behave thusly. Had the OP just said 'the character is behaving inconsistently', I would have agreed, but would also have to agree with the other comments upthread, that even the strongest and bravest person feels, and reacts to fear. So yes, it is atypical behaviour for Miral, and the reason why it's atypical, is because she's scared by the situation -- hardly unreasonable.
And yes, there is a need to confront the OP about such things, because people like the OP need to learn that they can't go through life expecting everything and everyone around then, to pander to their individual perspectives and 'triggers', or to conform to what they consider 'correct', and without a peer-based attitude-adjustment, they will just carry on in their entitled, high-handed manner, expecting everything else to conform to their viewpoint.
In your rush to deny the existence of gender issues: you still don't see the core problem: MIRAL PARIS shouldn't be behaving in this way. Gender is irrelevant in this situation, except that it conforms (by happenstance, at least) to a popular trope in gaming. For this to be a broader problem would need a demonstrated habit of doing this. With Cryptic, that's not the case. The problem is quite mechanical: there's inconsistent "acting" in one mission.
People like you simply need to step down from reflexively attacking people for having "wrong expectations through life" and think about what it is that's actually happening with the thing (ie. game) in question. There's no special reason for that too, it's better to think than just react. Is there an actual problem with the game? Yes, albeit a small one (one character in one cinematic). Was it stated in a way you don't appreciate? Sure was. Does that matter? Hell no, it's no more an objective issue than you failing to appreciate the following statement:
I'm fed up with Halo franchise sticking to alien archetypes popularized (in my generation) by Power Rangers.
It means something to me but (probably) not a damn thing to you. Stating the issue isn't a crime against social justice, and pushing for "correctness" above all else. It's just something that I feel strongly about. Ditto the OP. There's broader social implications in their point of view than my gripe about how one fictional universe is seeming to conform to another fictional universe (they can substitute in the real world for one or either). However, it's ultimately all personal expression. Much like yours. If we hold that the OP is simply wrong for speaking from their perspective, then what you're doing now in minimizing that perspective because you feel strongly about the implications is likewise wrong. So either they're justified (in which case, criticizing them isn't). Or neither of you are (making you both unjustified and hypocritical.)
So, maybe you should just call it a day. You've backed yourself into an argumentative corner over an issue which, even if we take your argument completely at face value, doesn't exist. So what's the harm in changing an animation? It's dubious to think you would have noticed if it was the standing default (for example) all along.
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OP, what you are asking for is called censorship. You are attempting to suppress or force a change in the story because you find it to be unacceptable.
You are free to become a writer for a game developer and write your own stories. Don't let your own personal feelings oppress someone else's freedom to do the same.
But didn't you know that is the way to do things now. Next thing you know the special snowflakes will be demanding Cryptic put "trigger warnings" on all content and demanding "safe spaces" in game so they aren't "offended" and "traumatized" by opposing viewpoints or some perceived "micro-aggression".
Good thing the OP isn't in the Empire. Klingon "micro-aggression"? Really?! There is never any "micro" about it.
As Kharn the Undying might say, “If words were water, the (snowflakes) would drown us all."
However Zig Zigler reminds us, "You don't drown by falling into water. You only drown if you stay there."
oldscholldork is making an apt warning for all of us. We need to see it for what it is and keep our heads above it.
The fact that Miral is female, is irrelevant to everything... It's irrelevant to her serving as a Starfleet officer... It's irrelevant to her being the Kuvah'Magh... It's also irrelevant to the animation which was applied, because the same animation is not only used on male characters, but used inconsistently on male characters (Eraun) as I pointed out up-thread. Yet the OP made -- or rather, tried to make -- her gender a factor for consideration, by claiming that it is wrong for a 'strong female character' to behave thusly. Had the OP just said 'the character is behaving inconsistently', I would have agreed, but would also have to agree with the other comments upthread, that even the strongest and bravest person feels, and reacts to fear. So yes, it is atypical behaviour for Miral, and the reason why it's atypical, is because she's scared by the situation -- hardly unreasonable.
And yes, there is a need to confront the OP about such things, because people like the OP need to learn that they can't go through life expecting everything and everyone around then, to pander to their individual perspectives and 'triggers', or to conform to what they consider 'correct', and without a peer-based attitude-adjustment, they will just carry on in their entitled, high-handed manner, expecting everything else to conform to their viewpoint.
In your rush to deny the existence of gender issues: you still don't see the core problem: MIRAL PARIS shouldn't be behaving in this way. Gender is irrelevant in this situation, except that it conforms (by happenstance, at least) to a popular trope in gaming. For this to be a broader problem would need a demonstrated habit of doing this. With Cryptic, that's not the case. The problem is quite mechanical: there's inconsistent "acting" in one mission.
People like you simply need to step down from reflexively attacking people for having "wrong expectations through life" and think about what it is that's actually happening with the thing (ie. game) in question. There's no special reason for that too, it's better to think than just react. Is there an actual problem with the game? Yes, albeit a small one (one character in one cinematic). Was it stated in a way you don't appreciate? Sure was. Does that matter? Hell no, it's no more an objective issue than you failing to appreciate the following statement:
I'm fed up with Halo franchise sticking to alien archetypes popularized (in my generation) by Power Rangers.
It means something to me but (probably) not a damn thing to you. Stating the issue isn't a crime against social justice, and pushing for "correctness" above all else. It's just something that I feel strongly about. Ditto the OP. There's broader social implications in their point of view than my gripe about how one fictional universe is seeming to conform to another fictional universe (they can substitute in the real world for one or either). However, it's ultimately all personal expression. Much like yours. If we hold that the OP is simply wrong for speaking from their perspective, then what you're doing now in minimizing that perspective because you feel strongly about the implications is likewise wrong. So either they're justified (in which case, criticizing them isn't). Or neither of you are (making you both unjustified and hypocritical.)
So, maybe you should just call it a day. You've backed yourself into an argumentative corner over an issue which, even if we take your argument completely at face value, doesn't exist. So what's the harm in changing an animation? It's dubious to think you would have noticed if it was the standing default all along.
so your reasoning is she dumber then even insanily reckless shounen protags by not being able to recognize sometimes fear is the appropriate response and that being kiddnapped by a insane klingon general planning to do god knows what to you is one of those times... things like this is why I'm glad I have no faith in humanity anymore.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Again, are you personally going to input money or expertise to create a new animation? Because that is the same cowering animation used by every single cowering character in the game. Do you think the 'tapping foot whilst looking at watch' animation from DS9 would be better?
I'd just use "enraged" or "alert" depending on how much I wanted Miral to follow Torres's example. Even though the foundry has a limited selection of animations to use I know for a fact there's at least 3 or 4 that would work for the character. If this thread is still around when the Foundry comes back online I'll update with the full list.
I'll also point out for you that at no point did I suggest:
New animations
Updates to the cowering animation
Updates to other characters
Talaxian NPC's (male and female) cowering from Vaadwuar shock troops is perfectly fine and serves a useful narrative purpose. Miral Paris shaking doesn't. My issue as explicitly stated (I find fault with the fact you missed it) is with this character. And not because she's female but because the animation simply doesn't fit (as fas as I understand the character.) If it were my mission I would certainly change it, as I have in comparable situations.
For example, Sandoval in Apex used to be brandishing a phaser after the confrontation with Prometheus. Now he's simply alert, because I felt that being less aggressive fit better than the first iteration. It depends on the intended character. In this case, that means going the other way.
Of course, no one actually needs to know what it is I'm talking about there. It's just to show that I've consistently acted on this opinion.
so your reasoning is she dumber then even insanily reckless shounen protags by not being able to recognize sometimes fear is the appropriate response and that being kiddnapped by a insane klingon general planning to do god knows what to you is one of those times... things like this is why I'm glad I have no faith in humanity anymore.
I have no idea what you just said. I get the general meaning but I don't understand your personal perspective in making this post.
Hmmm.
Well, that's that. Maybe you can use this as an example when presented with similar situations in future.
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@duncanidaho11 You make a good case, but the OP did title the thread, "a very unfortunate portrayal of a strong female character in game". This was clearly done to generate attention and focus the thread on the issue of the portrayal of a female once again being shown as a damsel in distress, not just how Miral was out of character.
Reality is, the Damsel in Distress stance doesn't even apply here as many captains and Boffs that ultimately rescue her are female as well and the animations in this game are so whacked that it's comical and not something to be taken seriously.
Additionally, demanding the change because she is a female, as the OP was doing, is censorship.
Clearly they had their own agenda and Miral would have been better served had you been the one to make her case here and not @umformtechnik#9538
Again, are you personally going to input money or expertise to create a new animation? Because that is the same cowering animation used by every single cowering character in the game. Do you think the 'tapping foot whilst looking at watch' animation from DS9 would be better?
I'd just use "enraged" or "alert" depending on how much I wanted Miral to follow Torres's example. Even though the foundry has a limited selection of animations to use I know for a fact there's at least 3 or 4 that would work for the character. If this thread is still around when the Foundry comes back online I'll update with the full list.
I'll also point out for you that at no point did I suggest:
New animations
Updates to the cowering animation
Updates to other characters
Talaxian NPC's (male and female) cowering from Vaadwuar shock troops is perfectly fine and serves a useful narrative purpose. Miral Paris shaking doesn't. My issue as explicitly stated (I find fault with the fact you missed it) is with this character. And not because she's female but because the animation simply doesn't fit (as fas as I understand the character.) If it were my mission I would certainly change it, as I have in comparable situations.
For example, Sandoval in Apex used to be brandishing a phaser after the confrontation with Prometheus. Now he's simply alert, because I felt that being less aggressive fit better than the first iteration. It depends on the intended character. In this case, that means going the other way.
Of course, no one actually needs to know what it is I'm talking about there. It's just to show that I've consistently acted on this opinion.
so your reasoning is she dumber then even insanily reckless shounen protags by not being able to recognize sometimes fear is the appropriate response and that being kiddnapped by a insane klingon general planning to do god knows what to you is one of those times... things like this is why I'm glad I have no faith in humanity anymore.
I have no idea what you just said. I get the general meaning but I don't understand your personal perspective in making this post.
Hmmm.
Well, that's that. Maybe you can use this as an example when presented with similar situations in future.
alright lets try a rephase then, your implying, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say unintentionally, a character has to be nearly too dumb to live to seem brave/strong something even things like dragon ball z, naruto and fairy tail note as being bad. can you see why that could be seen as... unfortunate.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
OP is only making this a gender issue because Miral happens to be female, when the problem has nothing to do with her gender at all.
No, it's just a detail. Here's a character acting inconsistently (based on the chosen animation.) That said, the fact that she's female doesn't discredit the complaint. In fact, it adds context because that fact may have made it easier to make this narrative mistake. It conforms to a traditional trope in gaming (see. what the Mario franchise is ultimately about).
That's not a certainty, it's just a perspective, but people are free to take it because it's factually supportable. Debate will likely find some kind of balance between perspectives. Most probably it's just a reflex decision, and one that could easily be changed, because what we don't have in STO is a consistent pattern of this stuff happening (at least as far as I can interpret).
But if you want to pretend that the burden of proof on forum posts is so high that conjecture about gender issues can't possibly be made, then let's have a look your remark "go back to Tumblr." Even though I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, I can say that it's several orders of magnitude less justifiable than the conversation the OP tried to start.
So, just take a step back and think about the situation. A character is behaving inconsistently, the fix would only require an animation tweak, what's there to decry? Regardless of whether or not you relate to the OP's perspective, there's really no point in mindlessly digging at them for applying it. It doesn't get you anything, except replies like this.
You sure wrote a lot of text to try to overcomplicate a simple situation.
the Damsel in Distress stance doesn't even apply here as many captains and Boffs that ultimately rescue her are female as well and the animations in this game are so whacked that it's comical and not something to be taken seriously.
That's not a self-consistent statement. Here is this specific cutscene where this NPC plays this animation. You've decided this doesn't fit the trope specifically because of what happens everywhere else in the game. Ie. everywhere else besides here.
That fact is still important to consider, because what it does provide is context. However, it doesn't change the trope/no-trope determination of the scene. Miral's animation logically fits. However, the significance of fitting the trope is pretty small BECAUSE of the greater context. The word you're looking for is "incidental." That doesn't mean this isn't an issue of some kind. It just means we can approach it from a purely mechanical viewpoint, without considering Cryptic's gender politics for the solution. No issue exists there. Miral's animation is just an example of inconsistent character portrayal, and the OP should be acknowledged for being right about that (because of what we know about Miral from STO and VOY.) It was their main point.
Where the issue is now is that acting on "inconsistent character portrayal" is somehow equivalent to censorship, because gender was invoked in the language of the OP. Even taking their posts at face value, the language of gender only provides a broader view on why that's inconsistent. The suggestion, scope, and effect are identical to a more mechanical view of character. Ie. mine. It's still just inconsistency. And yet I'm not censoring anyone by suggesting a mechanical change to the game. The ONLY people who are enforcing a language code are those criticising the OP for the use of "Strong Female Protagonist."
It's perfectly reasonable to say why Miral acting scared isn't about gender (as I have done, explicitly and repeatedly). You don't have to focus on the personal reaction the OP had, but you're simply not trying if you stop there and react to wording (in spite of what you know the original argument is about.)
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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alright lets try a rephase then, your implying, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say unintentionally, a character has to be nearly too dumb to live to seem brave/strong something even things like dragon ball z, naruto and fairy tail note as being bad. can you see why that could be seen as... unfortunate.
No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying that a Kira/Worf/Janeway type character (ie. sci-fi acting officer) shouldn't be cowering because that's not consistent with their character (see. Star Trek). To understand this, it might help to run the following word replace.
"William T Riker" -> "Miral Paris"
You should, naturally stop the moment you move on from this specific cutscene (otherwise Tom and Belana's relationship gets very weird) but the point is exclusively in how this ONE character acts in this ONE scene. Riker isn't a perfect analog but he suffices to demonstrate the point. If using a male character is an issue (you never know with some people), just use Belana Torres. What matter is just that you find a character in the same vein that you're more familiar with.
It's just not very good writing/acting. It's not the worst issue that has ever befallen STO. It's a very marginal issue, even among quibbles. One animation in one cutscene doesn't seem to fit. But to have to explain that across 4 incredibly polarized pages, you know there's a problem somewhere.
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alright lets try a rephase then, your implying, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say unintentionally, a character has to be nearly too dumb to live to seem brave/strong something even things like dragon ball z, naruto and fairy tail note as being bad. can you see why that could be seen as... unfortunate.
No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying that a Kira/Worf/Janeway type character (ie. sci-fi acting officer) shouldn't be cowering because that's not consistent with their character. To understand this, it might help to run the following word replace.
"William T Riker" -> "Miral Paris"
You should, naturally stop the moment you move on from this specific cutscene (otherwise Tom and Belana's relationship gets very weird) but the point is exclusively in how this ONE character acts in this ONE scene. Riker isn't a perfect analog but he suffices to demonstrate the point. If using a male character is an issue (you never know with some people), just use Belana Torres. It's just not very good writing/acting. It's not the worst issue that has ever befallen STO. It's a very marginal issue, even among quibbles. One animation in one cutscene doesn't seem to fit. But to have to explain that with a 4 page thread, you know there's a problem somewhere.
counterpoint she is not a kira/worf/janeway character, in fact none of those are even close to being the same kind of character... and they've all shown fear. she closer to ensign kim. a fairly young officer in way over her head.
and yes there is a problem but I get the feeling we'ld disagree on what that problem is.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
counterpoint she is not a kira/worf/janeway character, in fact none of those are even close to being the same kind of character... and they've all shown fear. she closer to ensign kim. a fairly young officer in way over her head.
and yes there is a problem but I get the feeling we'ld disagree on what that problem is.
She's a young officer but in her one alt-timeline VOY episode she demonstrated much greater resilience. She was working with a (presumably) nefarious band of Klingons for reasons that couldn't be acknowledged to any other part of Starfleet (it was just Janeway's pet project.) She was on her own for some time (her parents were worried) and still she emerged from the situation in much better shape than Kim in years of standing on the bridge.
For a better analog than a seasoned officer, you'd probably need to look at the more steadfast minor characters that show up through TOS or TNG (the red shirts who survived, and demonstrated some point about courage). Or just Tom Paris in VOY (roughly around the same age as Kim, but different personality, temperament, and tolerance for danger. He stared down the Kazon just fine when "captured.")
Anyway, to say "they're not close" I don't think fits with what we know about her (even from our previous encounter in STO. She wasn't shy about following us when fighting larger raiding parties on Regulus.) At least she's on her way to being a Riker/Kira type, which isn't quite appropriate for a cowering animation in this situation. Without a definite narrative purpose in highlighting her inexperience or non-implacable composure (making it a part of her character's depth), it's just counterproductive to other scenes.
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I still think the problem is that people are applying a foreign dynamic to one character when a completely different dynamic is in play. This isn't a character scripted like a living character for an episode of an unaired Star Trek series. It's an NPC scripted for a role in an adventure programed for an MMO. She, like the vast majority of NPCs in the game, is assigned an animation to give the character some semblance of activity fitting the scene while not being a hindrance to the player completing the mission in question.
For another prime example of, "They wouldn't act like that!" just look at all the supposed soldiers on Kobali Prime. Firing blindly from behind cover, cowering in the shadows of buildings... yet that front's been raging for months according to the NPCs. After the first couple weeks I doubt those soldiers would be acting like that anymore. But that's not the point. The point is YOU. Your character is supposed to be the one that wins the day, not the kobali cowering in the bushes or the one that couldn't shoot a vaudwaar if they were standing right in front of them.
Keep in mind that is one of the oldest missions in the game. So cryptic didn't have a lot to work with. We're lucky enough that they actually updated the model to actually look like Endgame Miral instead of basic noname art.
counterpoint she is not a kira/worf/janeway character, in fact none of those are even close to being the same kind of character... and they've all shown fear. she closer to ensign kim. a fairly young officer in way over her head.
and yes there is a problem but I get the feeling we'ld disagree on what that problem is.
She's a young officer but in her one alt-timeline VOY episode she demonstrated much greater resilience. She was working with a (presumably) nefarious band of Klingons for reasons that couldn't be acknowledged to any other part of Starfleet (it was just Janeways pet project.) She was on her own for some time (her parents hadn't spoken to her for some time) and still she emerged from the situation in much better shape than Kim in years of standing on the bridge.
For a perfect analog, you'd probably need to look at the more steadfast minor characters that show up through TOS or TNG. But to say "they're not close" I don't think fits with what we know about her (even from our previous encounter in STO.)
the bolded is kinda of important, not the same character no matter the name. it like calling mirrior kira and our kira the same thing and there is a big diffence between working with a few gangsters or being part of a battle and being kidnapped by a klingon Dr doom planning to do unknown probably lethal things to you.
the latter is far more terrifying.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
the bolded is kinda of important, not the same character no matter the name. it like calling mirrior kira and our kira the same thing and there is a big diffence between working with a few gangsters or being part of a battle and being kidnapped by a klingon Dr doom planning to do unknown probably lethal things to you.
the latter is far more terrifying.
Except that the STO Miral seems to be written in broadly the same way as Alt-Voy Miral. The question is interesting, from a creative standpoint, but as is the only thing I can point to as different is her reaction in this cutscene. Unlike Mirror characters (the point of which is to be different in some way), it doesn't appear that the changes between universes has had a major impact on personality.
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The point is YOU. Your character is supposed to be the one that wins the day, not the kobali cowering in the bushes or the one that couldn't shoot a vaudwaar if they were standing right in front of them.
I thought about that, but where I disagree is that empowering the player (because this is a video game) is easily conveyed through Miral later being bound and led by B'vat. Cryptic doesn't need to exaggerate the "Only we can do something!" angle during the abduction. The facts speak for themselves there, and it would probably even have more impact to be trying to save someone who is (temperamentally) on par with the player character than a visibly more junior officer (in the classic Kim sense). At the very least, B'vat becomes a more capable villain by one-upping a more combative officer.
Unlike the Kobali (who are explicitly made out to be not-natural-fighters), it's more difficult to say there's a larger purpose behind this one animation used in this one cutscene. There's a specific purpose (staging an abduction) but in context it's not quite as useful as other (known, we have a lot of these in the Foundry) animation choices.
Keep in mind that is one of the oldest missions in the game. So cryptic didn't have a lot to work with. We're lucky enough that they actually updated the model to actually look like Endgame Miral instead of basic noname art.
It was partly revamped. The U.S.S. Kirk ground maps (I believe) use the Origin bridge and interior made for the revamped FED tutorial. And this is where the scene in question takes place.
Still, there is the question of "effort to return." In that sense because the issue is so minor (character portrayal through ONE animation) that even if justified, it's questionable whether or not the update's worth the bother. If this was being pointed out about one of my Foundry missions, I'd know I'd change it, but that's just me and I suspect Foundry publishing is a smoother process than main mission updates.
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the bolded is kinda of important, not the same character no matter the name. it like calling mirrior kira and our kira the same thing and there is a big diffence between working with a few gangsters or being part of a battle and being kidnapped by a klingon Dr doom planning to do unknown probably lethal things to you.
the latter is far more terrifying.
Except that the STO Miral seems to be written in broadly the same way as Alt-Voy Miral. We don't have all that much to go on but if it weren't for this one animation there's really nothing to suggest through word or action that the personalities aren't the same (unlike Mirror characters.) Hence why you can call this animation inconsistent.
was alt miral kidnapped by klingon dr doom? cause if not there is no inconsistenty because it not the same situation.
I live near a major highway so I end walking very close to traffic within two feet I don't have panic attacks going to the store. that doesn't mean if a car suddenly nearly hits me I not gonna change of pants or at least a few minutes to collect myself. same thing, being large unaffected by a lesser thing doesn't mean your unaffected by a much worse thing.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
was alt miral kidnapped by klingon dr doom? cause if not there is no inconsistenty because it not the same situation.
Alt Miral also never ran along with Starfleet fireteams while fighting large groups of armed KDF warriors. In fact, we don't have any reason to suspect that Alt Miral served in any wars whatsoever (none was ever mentioned in the alt future.)
That would suggest that ours might be the more seasoned officer. It's hard to tell, but for that reason we shouldn't presume there to be any huge character differences.
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The fact that Miral is female, is irrelevant to everything... It's irrelevant to her serving as a Starfleet officer... It's irrelevant to her being the Kuvah'Magh... It's also irrelevant to the animation which was applied, because the same animation is not only used on male characters, but used inconsistently on male characters (Eraun) as I pointed out up-thread. Yet the OP made -- or rather, tried to make -- her gender a factor for consideration, by claiming that it is wrong for a 'strong female character' to behave thusly. Had the OP just said 'the character is behaving inconsistently', I would have agreed, but would also have to agree with the other comments upthread, that even the strongest and bravest person feels, and reacts to fear. So yes, it is atypical behaviour for Miral, and the reason why it's atypical, is because she's scared by the situation -- hardly unreasonable.
And yes, there is a need to confront the OP about such things, because people like the OP need to learn that they can't go through life expecting everything and everyone around then, to pander to their individual perspectives and 'triggers', or to conform to what they consider 'correct', and without a peer-based attitude-adjustment, they will just carry on in their entitled, high-handed manner, expecting everything else to conform to their viewpoint.
In your rush to deny the existence of gender issues: you still don't see the core problem: MIRAL PARIS shouldn't be behaving in this way.
And you're ignoring the point, that all people -- Miral included -- experience a range of emotional responses... The bravest of people will not always be brave, sometimes, something(s) will scare them. While the OP and yourself are saying this in inconsistent behaviour; Yes it is, but it's also reasonably explainable inconsistent behaviour. It's reasonable to understand that in the previous mission, Miral was less of a specific target. In this instance, she would have known that she was the target... That will scare someone, especially someone who knows what Klingons are capable of...
Gender is irrelevant in this situation, except that it conforms (by happenstance, at least) to a popular trope in gaming. For this to be a broader problem would need a demonstrated habit of doing this. With Cryptic, that's not the case. The problem is quite mechanical: there's inconsistent "acting" in one mission.
False. As I noted upthread, there is inconsistency in the behaviours in Facility 4028: Sometimes Eraun will cower (with the same animation) sometimes he will pick up a Jem'Hadar rifle and fight... Sometimes the BOFF will get stuck in any one of the blast doors... Sometimes they will follow the character perfectly... One of the passes through the mission, the BOFF fell off the forcefield walkway! Again, inconsistency occurs throughout the game; this is not an isolated example, so doesn't merit fixing any more than any of the other inconsistencies...
And while the gender issue may conform to an identifiable trope, that does not mean that the OP had to focus on that (by which with the very title of their thread, and opening post, they did) nor does it mean that someone has the right to demand that the scene be revised to not conform to the trope anymore, and makes no mistake, the intent of the opening post was to voice the opinion that the OP felt the content should be changed...
However, it's ultimately all personal expression. Much like yours. If we hold that the OP is simply wrong for speaking from their perspective, then what you're doing now in minimizing that perspective because you feel strongly about the implications is likewise wrong. So either they're justified (in which case, criticizing them isn't). Or neither of you are (making you both unjustified and hypocritical.)
Noo, they're not wrong for speaking from their perspective, the issue, is that their perspective is wrong. OP is criticising the portrayal of a strong female character, yes? Okay... OP is fixating on the point that the character is female... They are focussing on the character's gender, and demanding that the character's behaviour meets up with their notion of 'strong female behaviour', because they can't understand that a person's behaviour can vary, depending upon the situation they are in, and thus to display a variety of behaviours is not inconsistent, but realistic. That they have an issue with the behaviour, I repeat; they have the issue... They want the game to be changed: Not to actually improve it, but so it conforms to their ideals. That is censorship and fascism...
So, maybe you should just call it a day. You've backed yourself into an argumentative corner over an issue which, even if we take your argument completely at face value, doesn't exist.
No I haven't, I've explained my points clearly and concisely, and pointed out the flaws in the OP's premise... No corner for me at all...
So what's the harm in changing an animation? It's dubious to think you would have noticed if it was the standing default (for example) all along.
Because it would be a concession to an SJW; that's the harm! First it's removing an animation because they think it shows a strong female in a position of weakness, then it'll be removing Orion women because someone objects to their skimpy attire... Then it'll be removing the skirt option from female officers (which until TNG, were a canon uniform) Then it'll be complaining about the glitch which makes skirts disappear upon beam-out, because that is somehow immodest...
If someone has issue with those things, then that is absolutely their prerogative, but if it's that much of an issue to them, then the option they should exercise, is to stop playing, rather than demand that the 'objectionable content' be removed because they have an issue with it...
There's a difference between making suggestions which would actually improve or enhance other players' experience and make the game better, and demanding a change of this manner, because of personal politics... It is demanding an accommodation, rather than simply not partaking... It is censorship, and fascist in tone, because it is demanding conformity to an ideal, rather than allowing the devs to create their game as they see fit...
The entitlement of these people -- the arrogance to think that their perspective needs accommodating, that their sensibilities need placating -- is sickening, and so needs to be confronted wherever it occurs, so it doesn't gain traction and considered normal or acceptable behaviour.
was alt miral kidnapped by klingon dr doom? cause if not there is no inconsistenty because it not the same situation.
Alt Miral also never ran along with Starfleet fireteams while fighting large groups of armed KDF warriors. In fact, we don't have any reason to suspect that Alt Miral served in any wars whatsoever (none was ever mentioned in the alt future.)
That would suggest that ours might be the more seasoned officer. It's hard to tell, but for that reason we shouldn't presume there to be any huge character differences.
not gonna address any of it are you. ahh oh well. :P
if alt miral is running with "nefarious" klingon actually any klingons even for a limited time probably means fairly continuous battles. if our miral was mostly doing things not on the frontlines we may have been at most of the battles she been in. so even with the war our may have had the gentler time of it.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Right, so I made the observation that this isn't a trope since you can just run this mission with a female character....... and that comment is completely overlooked as people insist this is still a trope. Well okay, have fun everyone.
Right, so I made the observation that this isn't a trope since you can just run this mission with a female character....... and that comment is completely overlooked as people insist this is still a trope. Well okay, have fun everyone.
The Damsel in Distress is still a Damsel in Distress, regardless of who is coming to save her... The OP's beef is that they don't think Miral could ever be a Damsel in Distress, because no Strong Female Character could Ever be In Distress, so they feel Miral should not be shown as being a Damsel in Distress... To which I contend that it's not for the OP to determine or define or demand how Miral the Damsel acts, and that the devs should ignore the OPs observations as being nothing more than personal political bias, rather than a balanced viewpoint.
Hell forget the quaking in fear. I mean that's broken, but hell look at her rank early on. Called LT, should be a LT, running around in LTCMDR rank. Guys, bunch more broke than Miral "quaking in fear". And spending 4 pages arguing about it? Good god people, go outside, chill for a while.
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Again, are you personally going to input money or expertise to create a new animation? Because that is the same cowering animation used by every single cowering character in the game. Do you think the 'tapping foot whilst looking at watch' animation from DS9 would be better?
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In your rush to deny the existence of gender issues: you still don't see the core problem: MIRAL PARIS shouldn't be behaving in this way. Gender is irrelevant in this situation, except that it conforms (by happenstance, at least) to a popular trope in gaming. For this to be a broader problem would need a demonstrated habit of doing this. With Cryptic, that's not the case. The problem is quite mechanical: there's inconsistent "acting" in one mission.
People like you simply need to step down from reflexively attacking people for having "wrong expectations through life" and think about what it is that's actually happening with the thing (ie. game) in question. There's no special reason for that too, it's better to think than just react. Is there an actual problem with the game? Yes, albeit a small one (one character in one cinematic). Was it stated in a way you don't appreciate? Sure was. Does that matter? Hell no, it's no more an objective issue than you failing to appreciate the following statement:
I'm fed up with Halo franchise sticking to alien archetypes popularized (in my generation) by Power Rangers.
It means something to me but (probably) not a damn thing to you. Stating the issue isn't a crime against social justice, and pushing for "correctness" above all else. It's just something that I feel strongly about. Ditto the OP. There's broader social implications in their point of view than my gripe about how one fictional universe is seeming to conform to another fictional universe (they can substitute in the real world for one or either). However, it's ultimately all personal expression. Much like yours. If we hold that the OP is simply wrong for speaking from their perspective, then what you're doing now in minimizing that perspective because you feel strongly about the implications is likewise wrong. So either they're justified (in which case, criticizing them isn't). Or neither of you are (making you both unjustified and hypocritical.)
So, maybe you should just call it a day. You've backed yourself into an argumentative corner over an issue which, even if we take your argument completely at face value, doesn't exist. So what's the harm in changing an animation? It's dubious to think you would have noticed if it was the standing default (for example) all along.
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Good thing the OP isn't in the Empire. Klingon "micro-aggression"? Really?! There is never any "micro" about it.
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so your reasoning is she dumber then even insanily reckless shounen protags by not being able to recognize sometimes fear is the appropriate response and that being kiddnapped by a insane klingon general planning to do god knows what to you is one of those times... things like this is why I'm glad I have no faith in humanity anymore.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
I'd just use "enraged" or "alert" depending on how much I wanted Miral to follow Torres's example. Even though the foundry has a limited selection of animations to use I know for a fact there's at least 3 or 4 that would work for the character. If this thread is still around when the Foundry comes back online I'll update with the full list.
I'll also point out for you that at no point did I suggest:
New animations
Updates to the cowering animation
Updates to other characters
Talaxian NPC's (male and female) cowering from Vaadwuar shock troops is perfectly fine and serves a useful narrative purpose. Miral Paris shaking doesn't. My issue as explicitly stated (I find fault with the fact you missed it) is with this character. And not because she's female but because the animation simply doesn't fit (as fas as I understand the character.) If it were my mission I would certainly change it, as I have in comparable situations.
For example, Sandoval in Apex used to be brandishing a phaser after the confrontation with Prometheus. Now he's simply alert, because I felt that being less aggressive fit better than the first iteration. It depends on the intended character. In this case, that means going the other way.
Of course, no one actually needs to know what it is I'm talking about there. It's just to show that I've consistently acted on this opinion.
I have no idea what you just said. I get the general meaning but I don't understand your personal perspective in making this post.
Hmmm.
Well, that's that. Maybe you can use this as an example when presented with similar situations in future.
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Reality is, the Damsel in Distress stance doesn't even apply here as many captains and Boffs that ultimately rescue her are female as well and the animations in this game are so whacked that it's comical and not something to be taken seriously.
Additionally, demanding the change because she is a female, as the OP was doing, is censorship.
Clearly they had their own agenda and Miral would have been better served had you been the one to make her case here and not @umformtechnik#9538
alright lets try a rephase then, your implying, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say unintentionally, a character has to be nearly too dumb to live to seem brave/strong something even things like dragon ball z, naruto and fairy tail note as being bad. can you see why that could be seen as... unfortunate.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
You sure wrote a lot of text to try to overcomplicate a simple situation.
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That's not a self-consistent statement. Here is this specific cutscene where this NPC plays this animation. You've decided this doesn't fit the trope specifically because of what happens everywhere else in the game. Ie. everywhere else besides here.
That fact is still important to consider, because what it does provide is context. However, it doesn't change the trope/no-trope determination of the scene. Miral's animation logically fits. However, the significance of fitting the trope is pretty small BECAUSE of the greater context. The word you're looking for is "incidental." That doesn't mean this isn't an issue of some kind. It just means we can approach it from a purely mechanical viewpoint, without considering Cryptic's gender politics for the solution. No issue exists there. Miral's animation is just an example of inconsistent character portrayal, and the OP should be acknowledged for being right about that (because of what we know about Miral from STO and VOY.) It was their main point.
Where the issue is now is that acting on "inconsistent character portrayal" is somehow equivalent to censorship, because gender was invoked in the language of the OP. Even taking their posts at face value, the language of gender only provides a broader view on why that's inconsistent. The suggestion, scope, and effect are identical to a more mechanical view of character. Ie. mine. It's still just inconsistency. And yet I'm not censoring anyone by suggesting a mechanical change to the game. The ONLY people who are enforcing a language code are those criticising the OP for the use of "Strong Female Protagonist."
It's perfectly reasonable to say why Miral acting scared isn't about gender (as I have done, explicitly and repeatedly). You don't have to focus on the personal reaction the OP had, but you're simply not trying if you stop there and react to wording (in spite of what you know the original argument is about.)
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No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying that a Kira/Worf/Janeway type character (ie. sci-fi acting officer) shouldn't be cowering because that's not consistent with their character (see. Star Trek). To understand this, it might help to run the following word replace.
"William T Riker" -> "Miral Paris"
You should, naturally stop the moment you move on from this specific cutscene (otherwise Tom and Belana's relationship gets very weird) but the point is exclusively in how this ONE character acts in this ONE scene. Riker isn't a perfect analog but he suffices to demonstrate the point. If using a male character is an issue (you never know with some people), just use Belana Torres. What matter is just that you find a character in the same vein that you're more familiar with.
It's just not very good writing/acting. It's not the worst issue that has ever befallen STO. It's a very marginal issue, even among quibbles. One animation in one cutscene doesn't seem to fit. But to have to explain that across 4 incredibly polarized pages, you know there's a problem somewhere.
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counterpoint she is not a kira/worf/janeway character, in fact none of those are even close to being the same kind of character... and they've all shown fear. she closer to ensign kim. a fairly young officer in way over her head.
and yes there is a problem but I get the feeling we'ld disagree on what that problem is.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
She's a young officer but in her one alt-timeline VOY episode she demonstrated much greater resilience. She was working with a (presumably) nefarious band of Klingons for reasons that couldn't be acknowledged to any other part of Starfleet (it was just Janeway's pet project.) She was on her own for some time (her parents were worried) and still she emerged from the situation in much better shape than Kim in years of standing on the bridge.
For a better analog than a seasoned officer, you'd probably need to look at the more steadfast minor characters that show up through TOS or TNG (the red shirts who survived, and demonstrated some point about courage). Or just Tom Paris in VOY (roughly around the same age as Kim, but different personality, temperament, and tolerance for danger. He stared down the Kazon just fine when "captured.")
Anyway, to say "they're not close" I don't think fits with what we know about her (even from our previous encounter in STO. She wasn't shy about following us when fighting larger raiding parties on Regulus.) At least she's on her way to being a Riker/Kira type, which isn't quite appropriate for a cowering animation in this situation. Without a definite narrative purpose in highlighting her inexperience or non-implacable composure (making it a part of her character's depth), it's just counterproductive to other scenes.
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For another prime example of, "They wouldn't act like that!" just look at all the supposed soldiers on Kobali Prime. Firing blindly from behind cover, cowering in the shadows of buildings... yet that front's been raging for months according to the NPCs. After the first couple weeks I doubt those soldiers would be acting like that anymore. But that's not the point. The point is YOU. Your character is supposed to be the one that wins the day, not the kobali cowering in the bushes or the one that couldn't shoot a vaudwaar if they were standing right in front of them.
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the bolded is kinda of important, not the same character no matter the name. it like calling mirrior kira and our kira the same thing and there is a big diffence between working with a few gangsters or being part of a battle and being kidnapped by a klingon Dr doom planning to do unknown probably lethal things to you.
the latter is far more terrifying.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Except that the STO Miral seems to be written in broadly the same way as Alt-Voy Miral. The question is interesting, from a creative standpoint, but as is the only thing I can point to as different is her reaction in this cutscene. Unlike Mirror characters (the point of which is to be different in some way), it doesn't appear that the changes between universes has had a major impact on personality.
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I thought about that, but where I disagree is that empowering the player (because this is a video game) is easily conveyed through Miral later being bound and led by B'vat. Cryptic doesn't need to exaggerate the "Only we can do something!" angle during the abduction. The facts speak for themselves there, and it would probably even have more impact to be trying to save someone who is (temperamentally) on par with the player character than a visibly more junior officer (in the classic Kim sense). At the very least, B'vat becomes a more capable villain by one-upping a more combative officer.
Unlike the Kobali (who are explicitly made out to be not-natural-fighters), it's more difficult to say there's a larger purpose behind this one animation used in this one cutscene. There's a specific purpose (staging an abduction) but in context it's not quite as useful as other (known, we have a lot of these in the Foundry) animation choices.
It was partly revamped. The U.S.S. Kirk ground maps (I believe) use the Origin bridge and interior made for the revamped FED tutorial. And this is where the scene in question takes place.
Still, there is the question of "effort to return." In that sense because the issue is so minor (character portrayal through ONE animation) that even if justified, it's questionable whether or not the update's worth the bother. If this was being pointed out about one of my Foundry missions, I'd know I'd change it, but that's just me and I suspect Foundry publishing is a smoother process than main mission updates.
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was alt miral kidnapped by klingon dr doom? cause if not there is no inconsistenty because it not the same situation.
I live near a major highway so I end walking very close to traffic within two feet I don't have panic attacks going to the store. that doesn't mean if a car suddenly nearly hits me I not gonna change of pants or at least a few minutes to collect myself. same thing, being large unaffected by a lesser thing doesn't mean your unaffected by a much worse thing.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Alt Miral also never ran along with Starfleet fireteams while fighting large groups of armed KDF warriors. In fact, we don't have any reason to suspect that Alt Miral served in any wars whatsoever (none was ever mentioned in the alt future.)
That would suggest that ours might be the more seasoned officer. It's hard to tell, but for that reason we shouldn't presume there to be any huge character differences.
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False. As I noted upthread, there is inconsistency in the behaviours in Facility 4028: Sometimes Eraun will cower (with the same animation) sometimes he will pick up a Jem'Hadar rifle and fight... Sometimes the BOFF will get stuck in any one of the blast doors... Sometimes they will follow the character perfectly... One of the passes through the mission, the BOFF fell off the forcefield walkway! Again, inconsistency occurs throughout the game; this is not an isolated example, so doesn't merit fixing any more than any of the other inconsistencies...
And while the gender issue may conform to an identifiable trope, that does not mean that the OP had to focus on that (by which with the very title of their thread, and opening post, they did) nor does it mean that someone has the right to demand that the scene be revised to not conform to the trope anymore, and makes no mistake, the intent of the opening post was to voice the opinion that the OP felt the content should be changed...
Noo, they're not wrong for speaking from their perspective, the issue, is that their perspective is wrong. OP is criticising the portrayal of a strong female character, yes? Okay... OP is fixating on the point that the character is female... They are focussing on the character's gender, and demanding that the character's behaviour meets up with their notion of 'strong female behaviour', because they can't understand that a person's behaviour can vary, depending upon the situation they are in, and thus to display a variety of behaviours is not inconsistent, but realistic. That they have an issue with the behaviour, I repeat; they have the issue... They want the game to be changed: Not to actually improve it, but so it conforms to their ideals. That is censorship and fascism...
No I haven't, I've explained my points clearly and concisely, and pointed out the flaws in the OP's premise... No corner for me at all...
Because it would be a concession to an SJW; that's the harm! First it's removing an animation because they think it shows a strong female in a position of weakness, then it'll be removing Orion women because someone objects to their skimpy attire... Then it'll be removing the skirt option from female officers (which until TNG, were a canon uniform) Then it'll be complaining about the glitch which makes skirts disappear upon beam-out, because that is somehow immodest...
If someone has issue with those things, then that is absolutely their prerogative, but if it's that much of an issue to them, then the option they should exercise, is to stop playing, rather than demand that the 'objectionable content' be removed because they have an issue with it...
There's a difference between making suggestions which would actually improve or enhance other players' experience and make the game better, and demanding a change of this manner, because of personal politics... It is demanding an accommodation, rather than simply not partaking... It is censorship, and fascist in tone, because it is demanding conformity to an ideal, rather than allowing the devs to create their game as they see fit...
The entitlement of these people -- the arrogance to think that their perspective needs accommodating, that their sensibilities need placating -- is sickening, and so needs to be confronted wherever it occurs, so it doesn't gain traction and considered normal or acceptable behaviour.
not gonna address any of it are you. ahh oh well. :P
if alt miral is running with "nefarious" klingon actually any klingons even for a limited time probably means fairly continuous battles. if our miral was mostly doing things not on the frontlines we may have been at most of the battles she been in. so even with the war our may have had the gentler time of it.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
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