I've played NMS for some hours and the only thing i can say is: NMS is like an ocean - but only as deep as a bathtub. STO is as small as a bathtub but as deep as an ocean. IMHO the perfect game would be a combination of both games - STO and NMS... imagine... the deep, intensive story content of STO combined with the exploration aspect NWS is delivering - IMHO that would be an absolute perfect Star Trek experience.
You keep saying that. But are you saying there are no other games out there that already generate completely "random worlds", which is all the "procedurally generated" label means. I mean if that's what you're saying, then you need to look around a bit more.
not really. all I ment was the space generation. that hasn't been really attempted the way this was done. So, it is the first of it's kind. I don't know of any other games able to do a galaxy-wide generation. Now if you can list a couple here, I'd love to see them, since most such games are Zone based.
I like space games.
I like exploration games.
I like combat games.
Where's the good ones, cause I've run out of any worth playing a long time ago. Just been too stubborn to give up STO.
Things like random system (+planets) generation has been around in space strategy type games for many, many years. The most commonly known "world" randomly generated game is minecraft and there's others like 7 Days to Die and Empyrion. Currently though the Empyrion world is the same for everyone based on the same seed but they're going to have more down the road. Don't know if they're also generating the system(s) randomly or not. Of course these games all implement this stuff to varying degrees but it's been done for a long time now.
There are "issues" with randomly generated "worlds" though and that's in the data required to save changes to them. Minecraft worlds can be massive. Can take years to travel from one end to the other if you walk it. But they capped the size as problems came up beyond a certain point. With No Mans Land, they say they only save what they deem "important" things. So prefabs for example. I wouldn't be surprised though once people start really pushing the game, that certain things like all the harvestable materials, aren't all saved for the entire world if you leave and come back. Would make for some interesting farming but we'll have to see down the road.
Creatures for No Mans land aren't really procedurally generated. It's more akin to have a bunch of predefined skeletons (and associated animations) and then they adjust the skins similar to STOs character sliders in order to create the "diversity". I vaguely remember some other game doing something like that as well but can't remember off hand.
The one thing No Mans Land has done though is expand on it and put it all together into one game which makes it very cool just from that standpoint.
Something else to keep in mind. Game development is a lot of smoke and mirrors. Some things just aren't technically possible so they're "cheated" and you have to pay attention. For example, the transition from space to planet in No Mans Land. It's not seemless but they make it feel like it it. So while they might not "technically" have "zones", I wouldn't be surprised at all if the systems and planets etc all run off different instances or something similar.
You keep saying that. But are you saying there are no other games out there that already generate completely "random worlds", which is all the "procedurally generated" label means. I mean if that's what you're saying, then you need to look around a bit more.
not really. all I ment was the space generation. that hasn't been really attempted the way this was done. So, it is the first of it's kind. I don't know of any other games able to do a galaxy-wide generation. Now if you can list a couple here, I'd love to see them, since most such games are Zone based.
Having a bigger map doesn't qualify it as a new kind of game.
You keep saying that. But are you saying there are no other games out there that already generate completely "random worlds", which is all the "procedurally generated" label means. I mean if that's what you're saying, then you need to look around a bit more.
not really. all I ment was the space generation. that hasn't been really attempted the way this was done. So, it is the first of it's kind. I don't know of any other games able to do a galaxy-wide generation. Now if you can list a couple here, I'd love to see them, since most such games are Zone based.
Having a bigger map doesn't qualify it as a new kind of game.
true. it's the system more than the effect. I've worked in development both as a programmer and a graphic designer for games in the past, so I can only assume I'm failing to explain what I mean.
Doesn't matter. A person will either enjoy a game or they won't.
I don't know what J. Michael Straczynski's progress is on a Babylon 5 reboot (a few years ago he was supposed to be writing it and hoping for Paramount to foot the bill, otherwise he would finance through his own company), but I have always said that B5 would make a great MMOG with the various factions, classes, professions (station maintenance anyone?...like that one episode devoted to the two regular maintenance guys doing their thing during a "normal" day on the station), back story, etc.
With today's procedural tech coming along it could be like crossing Lord of the Rings Online with a story progressing in the background, along with just exploring, scientific jaunts, diplomacy missions (hello Vanguard: Saga of Heroes; giving that particular faction/planet/station citizens a buff), etc.
I even tweeted about this to Mr. JMS a few days ago. Anyone trying to visit Z'ha'dum would experience a moment of sensor warnings, a glimpse of a giant black arm in the corner of the screen, and a purple beam of light swinging in to your ship before being destroyed.
This would NOT be a game for PWE. They would TRIBBLE it up for casual play.
B5 does seem like a setting where you could easily have a galaxy with scattered worlds left with randomly generated ruins from assorted wars to explore. One interesting note from the scenario is that the area of terrain seen in the TV show was mostly the areas with nav beacons and jump gates. Most people were simply too scared to fly the hard way.
Farscape, Firefly, SeaQuest, B5, Stargate, Defiance... others I can't think of at the moment. Star Trek: Discovery, Star Trek: Continues, Star Trek: New Voyages....
Well, after you leave your home system, it really does get a bit repetitive. The planetary reskins, as beautiful and random as they are won't satisfy everyone.
Some of the Flora content is re used on every planet (mostly the mineral/elemental flora you can harvest) which takes away from the uniqueness of each environment.
There's also no bustling civilizations to visit or come across. Which is a major bummer. Why visit random planets when there's no chance at seeing living cities ? Even if the HUD tells you a planet is heavily populated you wont find anything bigger then a spaceport.
However, I am enjoying it for what it is. While it can be pretty mind numbing, it is somehow addictive, not sure how to explain it. But 3 of my buddies are also still playing it and still have very positive feelings about it.
But it's going to be the kind of game, where most will make it their priority to make a B-Line towards the center of the Universe (End Game) when they realize the game is not as deep as it could/should have been.
Which is what I'm doing now, Straight to the center as fast as possible. I just want to journey onward, only stopping where need be to resupply my elements and minerals.
There is a lot of potential though, really, like huge, but like someone said, if you can't build a sand castle in a sandbox, what is the point really ?
Although, Devs have said Base Building is being worked on. Which would add another element. But it's going to need a lot of patches like this if it ever wants to appeal to more then just the Minecraft crowd. And multiplayer for certain elements like space battles would be key to that.
It really does need a "more" to hold peoples attention spans. (If they want people to replay it over and over again - otherwise itll for sure be a 1 and done type game).
PC reviews are rock bottom atm. PC community got screwed. Like 99 % of the PC playerbase couldn't even get into the game because of a poorly planned launched. Lot of people rated it 0, and returned their download immediatly.
I don't blame them. But I wouldn't use the reviews to judge this game.
So I guess in the end, even though it's really cool to travel great distances through space (and the space flight is pretty impressive, vast and awe inspiring at times), it has a lot of the problems the Exploration clusters had in STO, predictable, not much purpose, and lacking cities bustling with NPC's.
A lot of people say in STO, it's not getting to the end game content/gear that makes the game fun, it's the journey getting there.
I think the same applies to NMS, except, how many times is that journey worth repeating ?
We'll see when I get there, but I'm guessing its something I won't want to repeat over and over, that said, I'll be glad I tried and experienced it.
In that way I feel it's akin to "Journey" or "ABZU" for PS4. Something you play once or twice to "experience", and move on.
If people were hoping for Star Citizen's little cousin...they were waiting for the wrong game. And no wonder they were disappointed.
All this said, I still give it a very solid 7/10 for being really unique (probably the best 7/10 game I've ever played - which is actually saying a lot because I don't believe in 10/10 games - I'm pointing at you Bioshock 3 and your paid reviews).
And you're doing yourself a disservice if you're relying on reviews to give you an honest opinion on this really unique game.
It's a try it yourself game imho. Rent it if you don't feel comfortable with the current price.
Second star to the right, straight on till morning.
I found a decent method of maxing out your ship's cargo size for anyone interested without spending any currency. Not sure if this will be fixed or not. Unlike other Transmission Towers, Gek Transmission Towers allow you obtain more than one Crashed Ship signal at a time. Also, it seems like using different Transmission Towers causes you to go to previous crashed ship locations that you have already found. My first planet had me going back to the starting point far too many times. All the crashed ships I found were either +1 or -1 cargo slot to my current ship's cargo slots.
So get a bunch of Heridium, Zinc, Plutonium, and Iron for repairs and go to a Gek Transmission Tower to get about 10 or so different Crashed Ship signals. Go to each one and either upgrade and repair to the next highest ship or scrap the upgrades on the inferior ship to help with repairs. Of course, make sure you know where your current ship is if you are going to scrap the crashed ship. So after a few hours, you can end up with a 48 slot ship.
I found a decent method of maxing out your ship's cargo size for anyone interested without spending any currency. Not sure if this will be fixed or not. Unlike other Transmission Towers, Gek Transmission Towers allow you obtain more than one Crashed Ship signal at a time. Also, it seems like using different Transmission Towers causes you to go to previous crashed ship locations that you have already found. My first planet had me going back to the starting point far too many times. All the crashed ships I found were either +1 or -1 cargo slot to my current ship's cargo slots.
So get a bunch of Heridium, Zinc, Plutonium, and Iron for repairs and go to a Gek Transmission Tower to get about 10 or so different Crashed Ship signals. Go to each one and either upgrade and repair to the next highest ship or scrap the upgrades on the inferior ship to help with repairs. Of course, make sure you know where your current ship is if you are going to scrap the crashed ship. So after a few hours, you can end up with a 48 slot ship.
True.
I'm going to get on that crashed ship task as soon as I finish maxing my exo suits slots.. should be done with that in the next couple of days.
But nice Protip to use the towers multiple times in a single location. Good thinking. I'll try that for sure.
I don't think exploration or at least the kind of exploration that No Man Sky does is not needed in a Star Trek game.
To me what Trek always seen to be about was not the study of alien life but the study of mankind through the lens of creatures not quite like us but like us in so many ways. I don't think randomly created worlds and animals can give us that kind of story.
That is true...and it is not true.
As a television series and a film series, Star Trek is fundamentally an exploration of humanity through its interactions with other species and phenomenons as well as its own ideals.
However as an interactive experience a Star Trek game has to have the framework of a Starfleet officer. We have to actually explore strange new worlds and seek out new lifeforms and new civilizations.
It's been my opinion for a while that Star Trek Online should actually try to emulate aspects of the Mass Effect series in order to provide the optimal Star Trek experience. Pursuant to that we would also need to create a system of moral choice in this game with actual consequences. In that regard entering the Future Proof arc and getting access to time travel would give characters the ability to go back in time and actually change those decisions so each character can play through all the decision paths of the character journey if they want.
We could bring back Divide et Impera where we would get the option to actually countermand the orders of the Undine Admiral instead of actually going along with it. We could choose to in fact kill T'Khet in the past.
Also a stun setting would be nice. So we can NOT kill that Vorgon idiot's wife, thereby removing the Vorgon fleet in the Battle of Procyon V (story, not the queue).
The choice would be deeply integral to gameplay. With each providing different outcomes over time as to how characters interact with you and what your starting position is with certain people. A Starfleet officer can either be a renegade who goes the full Section 31 and does what they feel is necessary or be a Picard and uphold Starfleet's ideals completely. A Klingon can be a Worf like bastion of honor in the empire, or a Duras savant stabbing people in the back as he goes, allying with the Tal Shiar and getting equipment from them. A Romulan can be a servant of the Republic or a legit mole for the Tal Shiar. Or someone that goes between the extremes. At the best end of it, it would determine what missions you would get, or how your character would be approached about missions. A Duras allied Klingon would be setting up Tal Shiar spy devices in the New Romulus staging ground and it would be a visit to the Tal Shiar base in the mountains. On the subject of Klingons, they are perfect for a House reputation game where you would gain favor with each House in the Empire. Max out favor and respect with the House of Chang and they give you the Enhanced Battle Cloak trait for any Klingon ship.
Let reputation actually be your reputation and how you're perceived.
As for exploration they would need to have several new quadrants of space Alpha 2,Beta 2, Gamma 2 etc., added on outside of the normal story. Bring back those enemies from the old Genesis system, but given the their own motivations and character arcs and space territory. Like city states in Civilization. A good reputation with them means you can pass through their space freely, while a poor reputation means they attack you on sight. If you get into conflict you can either use diplomacy or firepower to get out of it. Maybe one day you're rescuing a freighter like Danna Brot, or another day you're mediating between the two powers like in the Acamar system, or the negotiation in the 2400 arc.
I also think adding in a colonization subset of missions would be good. Tie it in to Admiralty. Blow out the DOFF cluster chain assignments. Actually build the colony and see it, visit it, maintain it, defend it. Make negotiations on its behalf with the other local powers. Assign Admiralty ships to defend it. Frankly I think most of us said at the time, the some of the chain DOFF assignments would be much more fun to do ourselves than send our subordinates to handle.
But most of all keep it away from the main storyline except where it can't be helped. For instance if two years ago we had built actually visitable colonies in massive quadrant sized expanses of exploration space, and then during the Iconian War we had to go rescue them from Iconian raids, and then the same thing with the Nak'hul's time travel attacks wouldn't that have magnified the impact of those arcs without needing to add story missions? Consider how many exploration clusters there are? Imagine having to defend 14 colonies from Iconian blitzes? And if we FAIL...we lose reputation with them.
After the war you have to rebuild the colonies and the trust if you didn't show up.
I still don't understand this fascination with the idea that exploration is center of Star Trek and all this other stuff we do just gets in the way.
The exploration that Star Trek was designed to do, from it's very inception, was to provide socially conscious commentary(but not SJW type ranting) on events of the day in a safe environment that is far removed from our oversensitive, litigious and painfully short sighted culture.
Modern day morality tales, if you like.
Any time the Enterprise's exploratory missions are even mentioned is simply as a jumping off place for the adventure/drama to come. The reasons are twofold. One, exploration as it could be presented is boring, unless you are some kind of anal retentive headcase. (no offense to the anal retentive headcases out there) And, two, any science they actually present can't be precise, it has to be based in reality, but be vague enough that if it turns out they were wrong, it doesn't matter.
That's because there's a growing movement of instant gratification COD-style game players who just want pew-pew and nothing else. Hence the reason they want to jump in without having to "grind" (level, develop a character) and want a lot of weaponry, focus on DPS and big numbers, etc. They want to jump right to the "end game" without actually doing the work it takes to get there along the way. For them, it's the destination- not the journey.
Personally, I embrace a more holistic view of gaming- including character development, enjoying the scenery- taking in the universe as it is, learning the cultures and nuances, etc. The battles and so forth are merely a page in the book, not the whole book itself. I don't see an "end game", I see it as a growing developmental universe with boundless and untold stories yet to come. No matter what game I play- I keep my mind open to possibility, and soak in as much as I can in the journey.
A bullet? Superman is faster than the freaking Enterprise. A Trek ship takes 2 days at warp 9 to go 10 light years (canon since season 1 TNG), Superman can do 5 light years in an hour (or less depending on the era of comics).
Hang on? Superman? Wait, that will never ever have any place in any conversation. They could never decide what powers Superman had at any level. That's way worse than any break with reality Star Trek had. Just no. Superman is a horribly broken superhero.
that's how real life works too - you've seen one M class planet, you've seen them all
True to a degree very true.
I'd like to see an M class planet with a terrain type not present on Earth. THAT would be an achievement in imagination.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I found a decent method of maxing out your ship's cargo size for anyone interested without spending any currency. Not sure if this will be fixed or not. Unlike other Transmission Towers, Gek Transmission Towers allow you obtain more than one Crashed Ship signal at a time. Also, it seems like using different Transmission Towers causes you to go to previous crashed ship locations that you have already found. My first planet had me going back to the starting point far too many times. All the crashed ships I found were either +1 or -1 cargo slot to my current ship's cargo slots.
So get a bunch of Heridium, Zinc, Plutonium, and Iron for repairs and go to a Gek Transmission Tower to get about 10 or so different Crashed Ship signals. Go to each one and either upgrade and repair to the next highest ship or scrap the upgrades on the inferior ship to help with repairs. Of course, make sure you know where your current ship is if you are going to scrap the crashed ship. So after a few hours, you can end up with a 48 slot ship.
Forgot one minor, but important thing to add about repairing crashed ships. Only the Launch Thrusters and Pulse Engine are necessary to repair to fly the ship. The Deflector Shield doesn't require repairing, but it does produce an annoying sound until it is repaired or you leave the ship.
Somebody else brought up Superman in the thread, and his speed, I just expanded on it.
Sorry, must have glossed over it.
Just out of curiosity what from the Animated Series would you like to see in STO?
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The Kzinti, but I would want them to look like they do on the covers of the Man/Kzin Wars anthologies. Probably some of the ship classes as well.
Does CBS/Paramount have the right to use the Kzinti? If I recall correctly that's why the Tzenkethi were invented even though they were only mentioned.
That said I would love to see a Kzinti - Ferasan - Caitian arc.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
the word tzenkethi was created by combining kzinti and something else, but their creator had absolutely no intention of making them a feline race; in his own words, he pictured them as being 'heavily-armored lizard things'
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
the word tzenkethi was created by combining kzinti and something else, but their creator had absolutely no intention of making them a feline race; in his own words, he pictured them as being 'heavily-armored lizard things'
Oh yeahh, I remember something along those lines now, thanks.
Well apparently the guys on Enterprise were negotiating with Niven to get the Kzinti for season 5 so it seems like he might have been open to considering the idea again but at present most likely they do not have the rights to use them. Just for me though the Kzin have been a favorite for a very long time. Thats the main reason my favorite tabletop Trek RPG was the Star Fleet Battles spin- off Prime Directive as it included them.
SONUVA...
I'm still salty about that. They cancelled Enterprise just when it was getting really good.
That would be amazing though if whoever's legal team could convince Niven to let the Kzinti back into the Star Trek fold. Alternatively Diggs or Niven could actually write the story arc in STO. That could be money.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
@captaind3 well said, I agree. It would be nice to have
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Unfortunately, STO's game engine would require a major overhaul, if not outright replacement, to have a exploration meta even remotely like some of the space exploration games coming out. I've been playing Elite: Dangerous for a few months, and coming back to STO's comparatively microscopic maps feels downright claustrophobic -- and NMS's is supposedly bigger than ED's. It was mentioned earlier that STO is likely to only get a polished-up version of its previous exploration engine, and I have to agree with that prediction.
Unfortunately, STO's game engine would require a major overhaul, if not outright replacement, to have a exploration meta even remotely like some of the space exploration games coming out. I've been playing Elite: Dangerous for a few months, and coming back to STO's comparatively microscopic maps feels downright claustrophobic -- and NMS's is supposedly bigger than ED's. It was mentioned earlier that STO is likely to only get a polished-up version of its previous exploration engine, and I have to agree with that prediction.
It would already be something. People need to stop comparing STO to NMS or other games, it's like saying "I wish FIFA was more like Mount and Blade". It just doesn't work like this and you can't transform a game to another one. What STO can provide is what the old clusters did. Premade maps with some random options for what happens on them. If we can increase these random modifiers orienting along what kind of DOFF/Admiralty missions we have and be able to actually play those it would already make a lot of players happy. Adding something like a progression log system, a memory of events maybe even a "Nemesis" event (with the option of resetting it) it would be the icing on the cake.
I don't expect STO to become a completely different game and acknowledge it's hard limits. But polishing what we already had would be nice. I'd prefer it over the course the game has currently.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Well, it is true that STO's area of Exploration scope is very tiny. If you throw the story arcs out the window, you can visit and explore nearly every part of the map in a day or so.
It is kinda constraining. Unavoidable to compare it with modern systems. Even some of the weaker games have larger scope to them.
I think I heard it best put somewhere else that STO is like playing in a box, while everyone else plays outside.
STO is good for what it is. They just forgot the Mission of Star Trek.
Well, it is true that STO's area of Exploration scope is very tiny. If you throw the story arcs out the window, you can visit and explore nearly every part of the map in a day or so.
It is kinda constraining. Unavoidable to compare it with modern systems. Even some of the weaker games have larger scope to them.
I think I heard it best put somewhere else that STO is like playing in a box, while everyone else plays outside.
STO is good for what it is. They just forgot the Mission of Star Trek.
They didn't forget about it, but they interpret it differently. STO tries to emulate the TV Show Star Trek, AoY even comes with film grain to emulate a TV set. They try to include the story driven drama and go out of their way to reference every single episode ever made. It would be completely fitting and non-immersion breaking to find a easteregg door on some STO map which leads behind the stage, with the actors taking a break and caterers serving snacks. The devs could place themselves in there in the role of a director or producer. This is what STO is.
The universe of Star Trek is what other games tried to emulate. As a Starfleet officer you are not constantly saving the universe, you would do what your DOFF and Admiralty cards to and explore, cartograph, patrol, support without a huge story arc spanning it all. This is what I would prefer, of course with the occasional written episode but I would like more open ended, free gameplay like @captaind3 suggested.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Unfortunately, STO's game engine would require a major overhaul, if not outright replacement, to have a exploration meta even remotely like some of the space exploration games coming out. I've been playing Elite: Dangerous for a few months, and coming back to STO's comparatively microscopic maps feels downright claustrophobic -- and NMS's is supposedly bigger than ED's. It was mentioned earlier that STO is likely to only get a polished-up version of its previous exploration engine, and I have to agree with that prediction.
Well that's a real fact. Frankly the next question is how would everything in STO convert into STO2?
Because we are talking about things that would need to appear in the sequel with a vastly more powerful engine than what we currently have. Improvements are one thing. But you're only going to get so much out of a 60s Corvette with improvements before the 2016 Bugatti just blows past it with ease.
It would already be something. People need to stop comparing STO to NMS or other games, it's like saying "I wish FIFA was more like Mount and Blade". It just doesn't work like this and you can't transform a game to another one. What STO can provide is what the old clusters did. Premade maps with some random options for what happens on them. If we can increase these random modifiers orienting along what kind of DOFF/Admiralty missions we have and be able to actually play those it would already make a lot of players happy. Adding something like a progression log system, a memory of events maybe even a "Nemesis" event (with the option of resetting it) it would be the icing on the cake.
I don't expect STO to become a completely different game and acknowledge it's hard limits. But polishing what we already had would be nice. I'd prefer it over the course the game has currently.
They actually have even more options than we actually think already built into the game. First, each player file having a memory of what has already been done would be money. For instance if we the player actually have a file in our computer that remembers which procedurally generates planets we've already explored and we can return to them.
As far as the stages we can go to. Consider a stage where you need a Risa floater to get around. How about you have to do a rescue mission for another starship that was attacked and one of their shuttles or escape pods crashed into a volcanic crater or a sank into a deep cavern and you have to use the Intel infiltration rope and the Risa Floater to get around, to rescue them.
Or a shuttle defense of a city like the Atmosphere Assault queue. Nothing as hard as a PvE queue, but a quick mission to gain some prestige with that planet.
Rework and reskin a stage like the Voth Fortress or The Vault as an abandoned alien outpost and getting through it gets you anthropological and historic information about this long gone species.
Man I made a long post about this a long time ago.
Have each exploration cluster have its own rep associated with it and have it unlock missions like the Romulan Rep. Ahhh. There is a WHOLE lot they could do even with what they have.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Just want to say @captaind3 , you've got some great ideas for exploration.
And Targ: You're right, that its not really fair to compare. But, we can always learn something from other sources. Even if it's used down the road on another project. But yeah, I'm going to drop this, because Captaind3 pretty much summed up what I would like to see in regards to exploration in a game, this or other future titles.
But also like you said it doesn't have to be super complex, some doff/admiralty tie ins, along with the use of the server wide progress bar might go a long way to improving the Clusters.
Comments
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Think I tried to say that earlier.
I agree.
There are "issues" with randomly generated "worlds" though and that's in the data required to save changes to them. Minecraft worlds can be massive. Can take years to travel from one end to the other if you walk it. But they capped the size as problems came up beyond a certain point. With No Mans Land, they say they only save what they deem "important" things. So prefabs for example. I wouldn't be surprised though once people start really pushing the game, that certain things like all the harvestable materials, aren't all saved for the entire world if you leave and come back. Would make for some interesting farming but we'll have to see down the road.
Creatures for No Mans land aren't really procedurally generated. It's more akin to have a bunch of predefined skeletons (and associated animations) and then they adjust the skins similar to STOs character sliders in order to create the "diversity". I vaguely remember some other game doing something like that as well but can't remember off hand.
The one thing No Mans Land has done though is expand on it and put it all together into one game which makes it very cool just from that standpoint.
Something else to keep in mind. Game development is a lot of smoke and mirrors. Some things just aren't technically possible so they're "cheated" and you have to pay attention. For example, the transition from space to planet in No Mans Land. It's not seemless but they make it feel like it it. So while they might not "technically" have "zones", I wouldn't be surprised at all if the systems and planets etc all run off different instances or something similar.
Having a bigger map doesn't qualify it as a new kind of game.
true. it's the system more than the effect. I've worked in development both as a programmer and a graphic designer for games in the past, so I can only assume I'm failing to explain what I mean.
Doesn't matter. A person will either enjoy a game or they won't.
STO is worth playing. So is No Man's.
With today's procedural tech coming along it could be like crossing Lord of the Rings Online with a story progressing in the background, along with just exploring, scientific jaunts, diplomacy missions (hello Vanguard: Saga of Heroes; giving that particular faction/planet/station citizens a buff), etc.
I even tweeted about this to Mr. JMS a few days ago. Anyone trying to visit Z'ha'dum would experience a moment of sensor warnings, a glimpse of a giant black arm in the corner of the screen, and a purple beam of light swinging in to your ship before being destroyed.
This would NOT be a game for PWE. They would TRIBBLE it up for casual play.
My character Tsin'xing
hmm.
Well, after you leave your home system, it really does get a bit repetitive. The planetary reskins, as beautiful and random as they are won't satisfy everyone.
Some of the Flora content is re used on every planet (mostly the mineral/elemental flora you can harvest) which takes away from the uniqueness of each environment.
There's also no bustling civilizations to visit or come across. Which is a major bummer. Why visit random planets when there's no chance at seeing living cities ? Even if the HUD tells you a planet is heavily populated you wont find anything bigger then a spaceport.
However, I am enjoying it for what it is. While it can be pretty mind numbing, it is somehow addictive, not sure how to explain it. But 3 of my buddies are also still playing it and still have very positive feelings about it.
But it's going to be the kind of game, where most will make it their priority to make a B-Line towards the center of the Universe (End Game) when they realize the game is not as deep as it could/should have been.
Which is what I'm doing now, Straight to the center as fast as possible. I just want to journey onward, only stopping where need be to resupply my elements and minerals.
There is a lot of potential though, really, like huge, but like someone said, if you can't build a sand castle in a sandbox, what is the point really ?
Although, Devs have said Base Building is being worked on. Which would add another element. But it's going to need a lot of patches like this if it ever wants to appeal to more then just the Minecraft crowd. And multiplayer for certain elements like space battles would be key to that.
It really does need a "more" to hold peoples attention spans. (If they want people to replay it over and over again - otherwise itll for sure be a 1 and done type game).
PC reviews are rock bottom atm. PC community got screwed. Like 99 % of the PC playerbase couldn't even get into the game because of a poorly planned launched. Lot of people rated it 0, and returned their download immediatly.
I don't blame them. But I wouldn't use the reviews to judge this game.
So I guess in the end, even though it's really cool to travel great distances through space (and the space flight is pretty impressive, vast and awe inspiring at times), it has a lot of the problems the Exploration clusters had in STO, predictable, not much purpose, and lacking cities bustling with NPC's.
A lot of people say in STO, it's not getting to the end game content/gear that makes the game fun, it's the journey getting there.
I think the same applies to NMS, except, how many times is that journey worth repeating ?
We'll see when I get there, but I'm guessing its something I won't want to repeat over and over, that said, I'll be glad I tried and experienced it.
In that way I feel it's akin to "Journey" or "ABZU" for PS4. Something you play once or twice to "experience", and move on.
If people were hoping for Star Citizen's little cousin...they were waiting for the wrong game. And no wonder they were disappointed.
All this said, I still give it a very solid 7/10 for being really unique (probably the best 7/10 game I've ever played - which is actually saying a lot because I don't believe in 10/10 games - I'm pointing at you Bioshock 3 and your paid reviews).
And you're doing yourself a disservice if you're relying on reviews to give you an honest opinion on this really unique game.
It's a try it yourself game imho. Rent it if you don't feel comfortable with the current price.
Second star to the right, straight on till morning.
So get a bunch of Heridium, Zinc, Plutonium, and Iron for repairs and go to a Gek Transmission Tower to get about 10 or so different Crashed Ship signals. Go to each one and either upgrade and repair to the next highest ship or scrap the upgrades on the inferior ship to help with repairs. Of course, make sure you know where your current ship is if you are going to scrap the crashed ship. So after a few hours, you can end up with a 48 slot ship.
True.
I'm going to get on that crashed ship task as soon as I finish maxing my exo suits slots.. should be done with that in the next couple of days.
But nice Protip to use the towers multiple times in a single location. Good thinking. I'll try that for sure.
That is true...and it is not true.
As a television series and a film series, Star Trek is fundamentally an exploration of humanity through its interactions with other species and phenomenons as well as its own ideals.
However as an interactive experience a Star Trek game has to have the framework of a Starfleet officer. We have to actually explore strange new worlds and seek out new lifeforms and new civilizations.
It's been my opinion for a while that Star Trek Online should actually try to emulate aspects of the Mass Effect series in order to provide the optimal Star Trek experience. Pursuant to that we would also need to create a system of moral choice in this game with actual consequences. In that regard entering the Future Proof arc and getting access to time travel would give characters the ability to go back in time and actually change those decisions so each character can play through all the decision paths of the character journey if they want.
We could bring back Divide et Impera where we would get the option to actually countermand the orders of the Undine Admiral instead of actually going along with it. We could choose to in fact kill T'Khet in the past.
Also a stun setting would be nice. So we can NOT kill that Vorgon idiot's wife, thereby removing the Vorgon fleet in the Battle of Procyon V (story, not the queue).
The choice would be deeply integral to gameplay. With each providing different outcomes over time as to how characters interact with you and what your starting position is with certain people. A Starfleet officer can either be a renegade who goes the full Section 31 and does what they feel is necessary or be a Picard and uphold Starfleet's ideals completely. A Klingon can be a Worf like bastion of honor in the empire, or a Duras savant stabbing people in the back as he goes, allying with the Tal Shiar and getting equipment from them. A Romulan can be a servant of the Republic or a legit mole for the Tal Shiar. Or someone that goes between the extremes. At the best end of it, it would determine what missions you would get, or how your character would be approached about missions. A Duras allied Klingon would be setting up Tal Shiar spy devices in the New Romulus staging ground and it would be a visit to the Tal Shiar base in the mountains. On the subject of Klingons, they are perfect for a House reputation game where you would gain favor with each House in the Empire. Max out favor and respect with the House of Chang and they give you the Enhanced Battle Cloak trait for any Klingon ship.
Let reputation actually be your reputation and how you're perceived.
As for exploration they would need to have several new quadrants of space Alpha 2,Beta 2, Gamma 2 etc., added on outside of the normal story. Bring back those enemies from the old Genesis system, but given the their own motivations and character arcs and space territory. Like city states in Civilization. A good reputation with them means you can pass through their space freely, while a poor reputation means they attack you on sight. If you get into conflict you can either use diplomacy or firepower to get out of it. Maybe one day you're rescuing a freighter like Danna Brot, or another day you're mediating between the two powers like in the Acamar system, or the negotiation in the 2400 arc.
I also think adding in a colonization subset of missions would be good. Tie it in to Admiralty. Blow out the DOFF cluster chain assignments. Actually build the colony and see it, visit it, maintain it, defend it. Make negotiations on its behalf with the other local powers. Assign Admiralty ships to defend it. Frankly I think most of us said at the time, the some of the chain DOFF assignments would be much more fun to do ourselves than send our subordinates to handle.
But most of all keep it away from the main storyline except where it can't be helped. For instance if two years ago we had built actually visitable colonies in massive quadrant sized expanses of exploration space, and then during the Iconian War we had to go rescue them from Iconian raids, and then the same thing with the Nak'hul's time travel attacks wouldn't that have magnified the impact of those arcs without needing to add story missions? Consider how many exploration clusters there are? Imagine having to defend 14 colonies from Iconian blitzes? And if we FAIL...we lose reputation with them.
After the war you have to rebuild the colonies and the trust if you didn't show up.
That's the kind of exploration I want.
Agreed.
Hang on? Superman? Wait, that will never ever have any place in any conversation. They could never decide what powers Superman had at any level. That's way worse than any break with reality Star Trek had. Just no. Superman is a horribly broken superhero.
I'd like to see an M class planet with a terrain type not present on Earth. THAT would be an achievement in imagination.
Forgot one minor, but important thing to add about repairing crashed ships. Only the Launch Thrusters and Pulse Engine are necessary to repair to fly the ship. The Deflector Shield doesn't require repairing, but it does produce an annoying sound until it is repaired or you leave the ship.
Sorry, must have glossed over it.
Just out of curiosity what from the Animated Series would you like to see in STO?
Does CBS/Paramount have the right to use the Kzinti? If I recall correctly that's why the Tzenkethi were invented even though they were only mentioned.
That said I would love to see a Kzinti - Ferasan - Caitian arc.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
SONUVA...
I'm still salty about that. They cancelled Enterprise just when it was getting really good.
That would be amazing though if whoever's legal team could convince Niven to let the Kzinti back into the Star Trek fold. Alternatively Diggs or Niven could actually write the story arc in STO. That could be money.
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It would already be something. People need to stop comparing STO to NMS or other games, it's like saying "I wish FIFA was more like Mount and Blade". It just doesn't work like this and you can't transform a game to another one. What STO can provide is what the old clusters did. Premade maps with some random options for what happens on them. If we can increase these random modifiers orienting along what kind of DOFF/Admiralty missions we have and be able to actually play those it would already make a lot of players happy. Adding something like a progression log system, a memory of events maybe even a "Nemesis" event (with the option of resetting it) it would be the icing on the cake.
I don't expect STO to become a completely different game and acknowledge it's hard limits. But polishing what we already had would be nice. I'd prefer it over the course the game has currently.
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It is kinda constraining. Unavoidable to compare it with modern systems. Even some of the weaker games have larger scope to them.
I think I heard it best put somewhere else that STO is like playing in a box, while everyone else plays outside.
STO is good for what it is. They just forgot the Mission of Star Trek.
They didn't forget about it, but they interpret it differently. STO tries to emulate the TV Show Star Trek, AoY even comes with film grain to emulate a TV set. They try to include the story driven drama and go out of their way to reference every single episode ever made. It would be completely fitting and non-immersion breaking to find a easteregg door on some STO map which leads behind the stage, with the actors taking a break and caterers serving snacks. The devs could place themselves in there in the role of a director or producer. This is what STO is.
The universe of Star Trek is what other games tried to emulate. As a Starfleet officer you are not constantly saving the universe, you would do what your DOFF and Admiralty cards to and explore, cartograph, patrol, support without a huge story arc spanning it all. This is what I would prefer, of course with the occasional written episode but I would like more open ended, free gameplay like @captaind3 suggested.
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Well that's a real fact. Frankly the next question is how would everything in STO convert into STO2?
Because we are talking about things that would need to appear in the sequel with a vastly more powerful engine than what we currently have. Improvements are one thing. But you're only going to get so much out of a 60s Corvette with improvements before the 2016 Bugatti just blows past it with ease.
They actually have even more options than we actually think already built into the game. First, each player file having a memory of what has already been done would be money. For instance if we the player actually have a file in our computer that remembers which procedurally generates planets we've already explored and we can return to them.
As far as the stages we can go to. Consider a stage where you need a Risa floater to get around. How about you have to do a rescue mission for another starship that was attacked and one of their shuttles or escape pods crashed into a volcanic crater or a sank into a deep cavern and you have to use the Intel infiltration rope and the Risa Floater to get around, to rescue them.
Or a shuttle defense of a city like the Atmosphere Assault queue. Nothing as hard as a PvE queue, but a quick mission to gain some prestige with that planet.
Rework and reskin a stage like the Voth Fortress or The Vault as an abandoned alien outpost and getting through it gets you anthropological and historic information about this long gone species.
Man I made a long post about this a long time ago.
Have each exploration cluster have its own rep associated with it and have it unlock missions like the Romulan Rep. Ahhh. There is a WHOLE lot they could do even with what they have.
And Targ: You're right, that its not really fair to compare. But, we can always learn something from other sources. Even if it's used down the road on another project. But yeah, I'm going to drop this, because Captaind3 pretty much summed up what I would like to see in regards to exploration in a game, this or other future titles.
But also like you said it doesn't have to be super complex, some doff/admiralty tie ins, along with the use of the server wide progress bar might go a long way to improving the Clusters.
yep. you said it best.
= ^.^ =