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Outfit prices in Dill store. LOL

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    nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    Ah the ethical conundrums of 'whaaah, I can't have a toy!'

    If you have nothing better to analyze for moral content than the price of virtual frippery, the rest of your life is either going very well (but not well enough you think $50 is trivial) or you're trying real hard to ignore the rest of your life.
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    iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    dalolorn wrote: »
    To be honest, from an ethical standpoint I must agree with @shurkhemolight - sure, there's nothing wrong about PWE making a profit, but not all means are justified by the ends, especially when it's 'just' profit.
    Well...

    What's more important - some Trek fanboy being able to wear a jacket for his make-believe character, or tacofangs being able to afford his healthy taco diet?

    Plot twist: He actually prefers burritos.​​
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    welcome2earfwelcome2earf Member Posts: 1,746 Arc User
    dalolorn wrote: »
    How did the Infinity box anger the whales? I thought that was the Nagus?

    I think that a lot of lock box items having their worth reduced to 10% of their former value hurt those who bunkered those items most the most.

    Just imagine you saved your EC in form of 200 kemo manuals, 50 leeches and 10 IL traits, take a 3 weeks trip somewhere and then return back to STO.

    For those items? Sure. But most Lockbox ships have been pretty steady for price. Certainly T6 ships...
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    gamerjoshgamerjosh Member Posts: 158 Arc User
    My problem with this is that it shows such strong preference to the players who buy zen over the players who grind dilithium. The dilithium refineing daily cap is too low, and the vet refining bonus is almost nothing.

    I'd love to see dilithium refinement work more like a tax bracket does. The more ore you have, the higher your bracket, the more you can refine per day, with a maximum cap in place for the 1%ers
    Belief manifests reality
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    risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    gamerjosh wrote: »
    My problem with this is that it shows such strong preference to the players who buy zen over the players who grind dilithium. The dilithium refineing daily cap is too low, and the vet refining bonus is almost nothing.

    I'd love to see dilithium refinement work more like a tax bracket does. The more ore you have, the higher your bracket, the more you can refine per day, with a maximum cap in place for the 1%ers

    And what would raising the cap do? Some people are already claiming that the effect on the zen price was only minor, raising the cap would completely remove what little effect it has had.

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    risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    I think some people need to realise that these items weren't added because Cryptic wants you to have them on all characters... it was a device for trying to fix the economy.

    Like others have said: dilithium sinks were asked for, and added. I don't understand all the complaining.
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    gamerjoshgamerjosh Member Posts: 158 Arc User
    risian4 wrote: »
    gamerjosh wrote: »
    My problem with this is that it shows such strong preference to the players who buy zen over the players who grind dilithium. The dilithium refineing daily cap is too low, and the vet refining bonus is almost nothing.

    I'd love to see dilithium refinement work more like a tax bracket does. The more ore you have, the higher your bracket, the more you can refine per day, with a maximum cap in place for the 1%ers

    And what would raising the cap do? Some people are already claiming that the effect on the zen price was only minor, raising the cap would completely remove what little effect it has had.

    It would make it reasonably possible for me to save up two million dilithium without having to spend actual money. Under the current system it would take more than 8 months of daily refinement to get that much, during which time I would not be able to upgrade any items or anything else that costs dilithium. 8 months for a single outfit. Who is really gonna save up for 8 months for an outfit?

    I don't mind the cost, it's the timegating that bothers me.
    Belief manifests reality
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    risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    gamerjosh wrote: »
    risian4 wrote: »
    gamerjosh wrote: »
    My problem with this is that it shows such strong preference to the players who buy zen over the players who grind dilithium. The dilithium refineing daily cap is too low, and the vet refining bonus is almost nothing.

    I'd love to see dilithium refinement work more like a tax bracket does. The more ore you have, the higher your bracket, the more you can refine per day, with a maximum cap in place for the 1%ers

    And what would raising the cap do? Some people are already claiming that the effect on the zen price was only minor, raising the cap would completely remove what little effect it has had.

    It would make it reasonably possible for me to save up two million dilithium without having to spend actual money. Under the current system it would take more than 8 months of daily refinement to get that much, during which time I would not be able to upgrade any items or anything else that costs dilithium. 8 months for a single outfit. Who is really gonna save up for 8 months for an outfit?

    I don't mind the cost, it's the timegating that bothers me.

    It would only take 8 months if you did it on one character.

    The idea is that some of the most active dilithium grinders will, instead of buying Zen with it, spend it on these uniforms. It thus reduces the supply of dilithium that would otherwise be used to drive up the price of Zen.

    The core of the perceived problem is that there's too much dilithium being earned, and that it's being done too easily/quickly. Adding more dilithium to the market by increasing the refinement cap would only worsen this.

    Perhaps allowing unrefined dilithium to be used to buy these things could work though... I'm not sure about that.
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    tempus64tempus64 Member Posts: 806 Arc User
    gamerjosh wrote: »
    Under the current system it would take more than 8 months of daily refinement to get that much

    The current system allows people who plan ahead and take the time to setup their accounts to accommodate this sort of thing, to make 2m in about 20 days.

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    peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited August 2016

    For those items? Sure. But most Lockbox ships have been pretty steady for price. Certainly T6 ships...

    Orb weaver, Wells, Tarantula? True 10% are a bit harsh here but if I recall they also saw a reduction to at least 25-30% of their former worth which I would not call a steady price from an investment perspective.

    gamerjosh wrote: »
    risian4 wrote: »
    gamerjosh wrote: »
    My problem with this is that it shows such strong preference to the players who buy zen over the players who grind dilithium. The dilithium refineing daily cap is too low, and the vet refining bonus is almost nothing.

    I'd love to see dilithium refinement work more like a tax bracket does. The more ore you have, the higher your bracket, the more you can refine per day, with a maximum cap in place for the 1%ers

    And what would raising the cap do? Some people are already claiming that the effect on the zen price was only minor, raising the cap would completely remove what little effect it has had.

    It would make it reasonably possible for me to save up two million dilithium without having to spend actual money. Under the current system it would take more than 8 months of daily refinement to get that much, during which time I would not be able to upgrade any items or anything else that costs dilithium. 8 months for a single outfit. Who is really gonna save up for 8 months for an outfit?

    I don't mind the cost, it's the timegating that bothers me.

    In my case 21 days of nothing else as far as Dil is concerned, that’s the price I payed for the maco outfit. I consider the sum of 1,7 mil still to be high but after estimating the timeframe till the next upgrade weekend something I could easily squeeze in. My private fleet is finished and I don’t see a new holding on the horizon either.
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
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    daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    If They really want to get rid of the excess dilithium, They are going to have to instigate a process whereby players Alt's don't have the same effectiveness in refining the stuff.

    One way could be to cut the refinement amount in half with each new alt...

    First Character = 8k per day
    Second = 4k per day
    Third = 2k per day
    Then 1k per day for all following new toons up to 10, at which point any more toons get nothing.

    This effectively limits the total dilithium refinement to 24k per day for each account.

    The players can decide the order in which each character gets the highest refinement each day, but still only refine 24k.

    Putting a digressive reduction with each new alt, probably wouldn't stop the diehard farmers (they will just create multiple accounts), but it would certainly slow them down.

    This could also potentially lead PWE/Cryptic to discovering which players are doing this (through Their revered Metrics), as I believe that having multiple accounts is a Term of Service violation.

    It would most certainly tick a bunch of folks off, but would solve the glut of dilithium.
    It might even lead to more folks considering paying cash and create an uptick in the company's profits.
    <shrug>
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
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    peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    daveyny wrote: »
    If They really want to get rid of the excess dilithium, They are going to have to instigate a process whereby players Alt's don't have the same effectiveness in refining the stuff.

    One way could be to cut the refinement amount in half with each new alt...

    First Character = 8k per day
    Second = 4k per day
    Third = 2k per day
    Then 1k per day for all following new toons up to 10, at which point any more toons get nothing.

    This effectively limits the total dilithium refinement to 24k per day for each account.

    The players can decide the order in which each character gets the highest refinement each day, but still only refine 24k.

    Putting a digressive reduction with each new alt, probably wouldn't stop the diehard farmers (they will just create multiple accounts), but it would certainly slow them down.

    This could also potentially lead PWE/Cryptic to discovering which players are doing this (through Their revered Metrics), as I believe that having multiple accounts is a Term of Service violation.

    It would most certainly tick a bunch of folks off, but would solve the glut of dilithium.
    It might even lead to more folks considering paying cash and create an uptick in the company's profits.
    <shrug>

    Your idea is heavily flawed considering that each one of the multiple alts you have needs the same amount of Dil to progress as your primary character does. Dil is a currency you need for basically everything. I have 10 characters in this game and refine 80k/day by now. None of my characters is a framer. Each one is a maxed out toon giving me the option do explore different aspects of this game the way I want it.

    If your system would be implemented I would have made 1-2 toons in STO. My donations to fund this game would also have been 10-20% of what they have been. You really think anybody in the world would make a third toon when it already reaches its tiny refinement limit 2 minutes after log in and needs a year or two to get enough dil together for a standard ship build?

    Now if they would make unrefined Dil being able to be used for everything BUT the exchange, thats a different story...
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
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    tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    shevet wrote: »
    The price point looks insanely high, true, but that's because there's a heck of a lot of dilithium around. As is immediately apparent once you look at the dil-Zen rate. Not everyone has that sort of dil just lying around (I know darn well I don't), but some people do, and there are enough of them to affect the game's internal economy.

    Bear in mind that the people who got huge piles of dil have, necessarily, been committing themselves to the game for a long time - which suggests they like playing it, they want to support it, they very likely have all the stuff you can currently buy with dil, so they are going to be a fertile market for these sorts of vanity items.

    In short, these things will sell to the people they're aimed at. Which is not most of us, but never mind.

    Bingo. High price point, even if it comes down a bit, falls under fleet-earned discount, etc is meant to target/lure those with the most dil floating around who thus have the most impact on the market by hoarding/releasing their stockpiles. These are not meant for the 90% of the player base that collectively has 50% of the refined dil, it's meant for the 10% that hold the other 50%.

    Still, doesn't mean I can't hope for these becoming exchange-tradeable at some point, or an account unlock, or both :wink:
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    tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    tritan2409 wrote: »
    ...So they decide to introduce ship consoles, but not the ones we are used to, but some 1 per character unlock ( costing millions of dil ) that is total I-win button? ...

    Thought, along those lines...what about something like the red-matter capacitor? Might be a few folks who'd fuss about exclusivity or "do you know how long ago I got mine? It should be exclusive." But this'd not be an "I win" in power terms, and in decent demand due to the utility, plus it could be a way to bring back other older or promotional items.
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    peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    coldnapalm wrote: »

    People really need to realize that there is a difference between bad for them and bad for the game as a whole.

    The two of us had this discussion before. I don’t think that your argumentation “good for the game as whole” is only when cryptic strictly caters to F2Pers willing to make a toon or two at most is sound so I doubt we ever reach a common ground here. ;)

    The decision to place outfits in the Dil store instead of the Lobi- or Zen stores in the first place is already aimed at the benefit of F2Per. Granted, they are expencive but if players in this game are strictly unwilling to pay or put enough dedication to this game to get those outfits by simply playing for them it’s their loss. Like mentioned above, it’s not as if they would have to run through game naked without them…
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
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    pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,177 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    dalolorn wrote: »
    How did the Infinity box anger the whales? I thought that was the Nagus?

    Yeah - confused at this one too; the feedback at the time suggested that the Infinity lockbox was actually a popular move.

    The Nagus however..... :#


    Yeah, not understanding that either. Unless they mean something like 'Whales are angry now because their thought-to-be very rare stockpiled lockboxes are suddenly commonly available again.' I could see that. From a player perspective, though, I love the Infinity lockbox!

    I don't follow as the very rare green+ lock box's with better drop odds are not commonly available again. Infinity lockbox's don't have better odds then the old rare green+ box's do they? The only thing the Infinity lockbox's got rid of was the old white lock box's.
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    dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    dalolorn wrote: »
    To be honest, from an ethical standpoint I must agree with @shurkhemolight - sure, there's nothing wrong about PWE making a profit, but not all means are justified by the ends, especially when it's 'just' profit.
    Well...

    What's more important - some Trek fanboy being able to wear a jacket for his make-believe character, or tacofangs being able to afford his healthy taco diet?

    You make the inaccurate claim that both cannot coexist. You've removed most of the details from my argument, reducing it to a fairly black-and-white statement, and then offered the argument that the extra $2500 (yes, this may be excessively low) they might have earned will go to the salaries of one of the developers. More likely, PWE will pocket the difference and use it as they see fit, whether that's for further funding the game or paying one of their big-wigs' undoubtedly ludicrous salaries.

    If they start taking away money from Cryptic because maneuvers like this fail the way they deserve to, then I'll be just as upset as I am about this current mess. Until then, the devs will have plenty of tacos, burritos or whatever they eat. :tongue:
    risian4 wrote: »
    I think some people need to realise that these items weren't added because Cryptic wants you to have them on all characters... it was a device for trying to fix the economy.

    Like others have said: dilithium sinks were asked for, and added. I don't understand all the complaining.

    In the context of being primarily a dilithium sink (that is admittedly still likely to be a money sink - the difference I've been talking about is which goal they were focusing on), this was sloppily executed. Heck, given the untradability of the thing, it was sloppily executed even as a money sink!
    risian4 wrote: »
    gamerjosh wrote: »
    risian4 wrote: »
    gamerjosh wrote: »
    My problem with this is that it shows such strong preference to the players who buy zen over the players who grind dilithium. The dilithium refineing daily cap is too low, and the vet refining bonus is almost nothing.

    I'd love to see dilithium refinement work more like a tax bracket does. The more ore you have, the higher your bracket, the more you can refine per day, with a maximum cap in place for the 1%ers

    And what would raising the cap do? Some people are already claiming that the effect on the zen price was only minor, raising the cap would completely remove what little effect it has had.

    It would make it reasonably possible for me to save up two million dilithium without having to spend actual money. Under the current system it would take more than 8 months of daily refinement to get that much, during which time I would not be able to upgrade any items or anything else that costs dilithium. 8 months for a single outfit. Who is really gonna save up for 8 months for an outfit?

    I don't mind the cost, it's the timegating that bothers me.

    It would only take 8 months if you did it on one character.

    The idea is that some of the most active dilithium grinders will, instead of buying Zen with it, spend it on these uniforms. It thus reduces the supply of dilithium that would otherwise be used to drive up the price of Zen.

    The core of the perceived problem is that there's too much dilithium being earned, and that it's being done too easily/quickly. Adding more dilithium to the market by increasing the refinement cap would only worsen this.

    Perhaps allowing unrefined dilithium to be used to buy these things could work though... I'm not sure about that.

    Hah, dream on. The 'most active dilithium grinders' don't care about your 'petty outfits'. They might care, maybe, if they were a way to get tons of EC on the Exchange - but I sincerely doubt the bigger players on the dilithium exchange give a damn about MACO costumes, or TWoK costumes. A few might, sure, but the majority are chasing Zen, either as a goal in and of itself or as a means to buy keys to sell/use.

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    dalolorn wrote: »
    dalolorn wrote: »
    To be honest, from an ethical standpoint I must agree with @shurkhemolight - sure, there's nothing wrong about PWE making a profit, but not all means are justified by the ends, especially when it's 'just' profit.
    Well...

    What's more important - some Trek fanboy being able to wear a jacket for his make-believe character, or tacofangs being able to afford his healthy taco diet?

    You make the inaccurate claim that both cannot coexist. You've removed most of the details from my argument, reducing it to a fairly black-and-white statement, and then offered the argument that the extra $2500 (yes, this may be excessively low) they might have earned will go to the salaries of one of the developers. More likely, PWE will pocket the difference and use it as they see fit, whether that's for further funding the game or paying one of their big-wigs' undoubtedly ludicrous salaries.

    If they start taking away money from Cryptic because maneuvers like this fail the way they deserve to, then I'll be just as upset as I am about this current mess. Until then, the devs will have plenty of tacos, burritos or whatever they eat. :tongue:
    The point of my post was basically that it's pretty dumb to bring moral and ethics into this.

    The only question is really of whether this will achieve the goal they set out to.

    I think people are however often overestimating the potential negative outcomes of this. If it doesn't work, Cryptic can try something else. Maybe these few uniforms will be forever locked behind 2 Million Dilithium, but they can make new ones, and can devise new Dilithium sinks.

    The beauty of this uniform is that it does not affect most people. Which is different from something like a Fleet Holding or the Upgrade system, which is a sink for every player.

    But I am not saying anything new here.

    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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    alexsanderitaalexsanderita Member Posts: 214 Arc User
    iconians wrote: »
    Before: "LOL Dilithium is so worthless it's almost 500 dil/zen. Craptic needs to get their **** together and put some dil sinks in the game."

    Now: "LOL These dil prices for space barbie accessories are too high. Craptic needs to make them cheaper!"​​
    You lot wanted dilithium sinks. Here they are.

    We needed REAL dilithium sinks, something that gives VALUE matching the COST, like the Fleet System did.


    They should not have let it being capped and finished to become just another dead feature,
    let alone everybody have a personal fleet, starbase, embassy, mine, etc.

    They should have make it so that new holdings and projects come out constantly sinking resources and making it a never ending series of accomplishments like with the Reputations system,

    an objective easily doable with the addition of customization that is the center of every housing system in a game like this.


    Instead they chose the easy road, let everyone be happy cheating the system and making it die to move on the new system to create and then abandon... and the next lockbox.

    I KNEW it would have ended this way. With a desperate move that only alienates the customers.


    And now we have people who don't understand the ABC of an online game functioning and economy saying that we don't need any sink at all because the developer didn't do a good job on it,

    like we all were happy with the Exchange price nearing the set maximum...

    ...making the TIME you spent on the game grinding worthless. Sigh.


    What about a REAL dilithium sink?

    Something that people will be actually HAPPY to pay those prices, because it gives in reward VALUE for the cost and not just a single character unlock uniform?

    Of course, that would require serious work in the design and implementation... not like modeling a couple costumes.
    I still dream from time to time about using the Gateway to doff off-game in spare minutes as we were told
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    peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    iconians wrote: »
    Before: "LOL Dilithium is so worthless it's almost 500 dil/zen. Craptic needs to get their **** together and put some dil sinks in the game."

    Now: "LOL These dil prices for space barbie accessories are too high. Craptic needs to make them cheaper!"​​
    You lot wanted dilithium sinks. Here they are.

    We needed REAL dilithium sinks, something that gives VALUE matching the COST, like the Fleet System did.


    They should not have let it being capped and finished to become just another dead feature,
    let alone everybody have a personal fleet, starbase, embassy, mine, etc.

    They should have make it so that new holdings and projects come out constantly sinking resources and making it a never ending series of accomplishments like with the Reputations system,

    an objective easily doable with the addition of customization that is the center of every housing system in a game like this.


    Instead they chose the easy road, let everyone be happy cheating the system and making it die to move on the new system to create and then abandon... and the next lockbox.

    I KNEW it would have ended this way. With a desperate move that only alienates the customers.


    And now we have people who don't understand the ABC of an online game functioning and economy saying that we don't need any sink at all because the developer didn't do a good job on it,

    like we all were happy with the Exchange price nearing the set maximum...

    ...making the TIME you spent on the game grinding worthless. Sigh.


    What about a REAL dilithium sink?

    Something that people will be actually HAPPY to pay those prices, because it gives in reward VALUE for the cost and not just a single character unlock uniform?

    Of course, that would require serious work in the design and implementation... not like modeling a couple costumes.

    Like fleet holdings!?!

    C’mon they are only a time gate to level and where 1% of its (dedicated) members cover the Dil expenses while the rest (of the F2Pers) keep on carrying their Dil to the exchange. At the end we can all make the next power creepy purchase to have yet more players in forums complaining about DPS and 50 seconds ISA runs.

    I for my part find simple cosmetic adjustments a lot whole better and lot less hurting toward the game we play.

    The price is extream, yea, but that is something Cryptic can adjust IF it's nessesary. Still somehow I doubt it. I think the costumes do and will sell.
    animated.gif
    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
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    dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    Like fleet holdings!?!

    C’mon they are only a time gate to level and where 1% of its (dedicated) members cover the Dil expenses while the rest (of the F2Pers) keep on carrying their Dil to the exchange. At the end we can all make the next power creepy purchase to have yet more players in forums complaining about DPS and 50 seconds ISA runs.

    I for my part find simple cosmetic adjustments a lot whole better and lot less hurting toward the game we play.

    The price is extream, yea, but that is something Cryptic can adjust IF it's nessesary. Still somehow I doubt it. I think the costumes do and will sell.

    I agree that cosmetic adjustments are the preferred solution here, but again, the implementation is poor enough that the sink will barely register as background noise!

    Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.p3OEBPD6HU3QI.jpg
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