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The hate for the Kelvin ships is ridiculous...

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    legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,280 Arc User
    considering we've never seen ANY form of cancer on star trek, they clearly do have a cure for leukemia​​
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    atomicmunkey#9096 atomicmunkey Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    People are mad because Cryptic gets away with releasing ships that are stupidly overpriced, and not everyone can afford to throw $100s of dollars into keys to get one. Of course people are mad, maybe wrongfully directing it at you; but they have a right to be angry. Ignore it and move on.
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    ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User

    artan42 wrote: »
    calidhris wrote: »
    We do not have an endgame Constitution. We have a ship that from some angles looks remotely like a Constitution but which completely falls through upon closer inspection.
    A Daedalus? I don't think you can count. The Kelvin is a perfect example of a future version of an ENT era ship. All bare metal, turreted weapons, an industrial look, and realistic bridge. And the Nerada ia a Romulan ship with borg bits. Even if you don't accept that bit it's a civilian mining ship. It's not going to look like a military ship is it?

    I didn't mind the Kelvin. However, why would they go back to little turrets when they had beam weapons in Enterprise? Otherwise, it was a good looking ship. Nerada, on the other hand was an idiotic design, and no, you don't get to say it's part Borg, because that never appeared in the film. It isn't in the film, you don't get credit for it. A mining ship is a WORKING ship, it's going to be utilitarian. Nerada is decidedly NOT. The interior is as bad, with tiny walkways and no railings, and whatnot.

    Realistic Bridge???? On the KT Enterprise? Let me ask you something. Have you EVER set foot on a real ships bridge? They are most definetly not all glaring lights and gee gaws like the KT's bridge. if anything that bridge is the most unrealistic bridge ever. I could go into detail but hey odds are my words would be lost on you. The Kelvin itself outside of the silly impluse engine opening acting like a varible geometry nozzle on a turbine (It is real silly on an engine designed to work only in a vacuum. Look up nozzle design sometime.) was the best looking ship in that film.
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    redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,297 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    Temporal incursions into forum-posts by temporal moderators confirmed.
    Post edited by redeyedraven on
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    snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    So I just saw Beyond. And after that movie, I feel a lot of the hate on the Kelvin Timeline is going to dissipate. Sure some staunch "real" trek fans of "true" trek will vainly try to cling to their hatred, but, yeah, Pegg and Jung really hit home in a great way with this one.
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    tenkaritenkari Member Posts: 2,906 Arc User
    considering we've never seen ANY form of cancer on star trek, they clearly do have a cure for leukemia​​

    if they can magically regrow organs with just a pill, I'd sayt they could cure most cell based diseasess like cancer.
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    redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,297 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    His movies were empty, mindless action spectacle chock full of shallow, hacky writing and sloppy design work and plot holes you could fit a starbase through, and THAT was the problem I and so many others had with them.​​

    The first one from 2009 was actually pretty solid, and basically an origin-story. No movie is without sin, but the writing, the scope, and especially plot and characters were definately leagues above any TNG-movie. Plot-holes... yup, there certainly are a few. But... every single TNG-movie has a lot more of these.
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    talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    @revenge You're probably right but it's still a major plot hole that makes absolutely zero sense.

    And some people want to go ballistic over kirk kicking the reactor back into alignment? Asinine.
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    redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    talonxv wrote: »
    @revenge You're probably right but it's still a major plot hole that makes absolutely zero sense.

    And some people want to go ballistic over kirk kicking the reactor back into alignment? Asinine.
    There are alot of things leading up to Spock's death in WoK that are questionable, no doubt. I have enjoyed our discussion on the topic!

    I don't think JJ-trek is un-Trek... but the writing in Into Darkness is terrible. Thankfully, Orci does not write for STO so we have a brand new canvas to write JJ stories on!

    Also, for those who really hate JJ-verse, Cryptic threw you a bone. In the Expanse mission in Yesterday's War, it is heavily implied that, without your actions, the sphere builders destroy the JJ-verse. So, just skip/drop the mission and headcannon it that the sphere builders win. If you like the JJ-verse, deafeat the sphere builders. Everyone wins!
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    daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    So I just saw Beyond. And after that movie, I feel a lot of the hate on the Kelvin Timeline is going to dissipate. Sure some staunch "real" trek fans of "true" trek will vainly try to cling to their hatred, but, yeah, Pegg and Jung really hit home in a great way with this one.

    I'm off to see it right now...

    We shall see...

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    aphelionmarauderaphelionmarauder Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    calidhris wrote: »
    We do not have an endgame Constitution. We have a ship that from some angles looks remotely like a Constitution but which completely falls through upon closer inspection.

    It's dedication plaque states Constitution Class.
    calidhris wrote: »
    To some of us, these ships are just ugly. To most of us, they symbolise a radically wrong direction the franchise has taken.

    Correct, the Galaxy is a revolting looking unbalanced fat ship and TNG is a mockery of TOS...
    ...Oh, sorry, I thought this was the 70s and ST fans were resistant to change.
    calidhris wrote: »
    Abrams Trek is divisive, and that is the case because it splits the fandom into those who love Star Trek the way it used to be. The Trek of TOS, TNG and large parts of DS9, of which we'll only find traces in VOY and ENT.

    So VOY and ENT are also divisive? Did you know DS9 is as well? All that trekking around one station and all that war? Or TNG is? All of ST is divisive.
    calidhris wrote: »
    Now Abrams comes around and in his film he changes everything around. He destroys two of the most iconic locations fans have always loved - Romulus and Vulcan

    Who loved Romulus?
    calidhris wrote: »
    Spock isn't clever enough to figure out he can save Vulcan by walking over to a Federation outpost and warning the Federation of impending doom,

    Really? He's just had his planet blown up and you assume he's in his right mind? Really?
    calidhris wrote: »
    new-Spock isn't master of his own emotions and has a fling with Uhura,

    And...?
    calidhris wrote: »
    new-Kirk is a common bar room brawler,

    Kirk Prime had a father, KT Kirk had an abusive stepfather. Wow, different upbringings can create different people.
    calidhris wrote: »
    new-Sulu doesn't even realise the handbrake is on (or whatever they called it)

    Here you go kid, here's the Federation Flagship, try not to get nervous and make simple mistakes eh?
    calidhris wrote: »
    , new-Scott is a complete screwball played by an actor who just cannot do a serious role (love him as a comedian, but not here)...

    Because Scotty was always the serious one right?
    calidhris wrote: »
    pair that with radically different aesthetics (e.g. apple store bridge, brewery engine room)

    You'd prefer cardboard and primary colours?

    calidhris wrote: »
    , a shaky camera, excessive lens flares and a plethora of mindless action sequences (something especially Nemesis was guilty of, too) and you get a very bad mix.

    You'd prefer two ships hung from strings a metre from each other with drawn on lasers? I can see why you'd hate excitement.
    calidhris wrote: »
    And the worst of it all is: Previous re-imaginings of the Trek universe respected what came before. Previous series always added to what was there before. Even Enterprise came out and 'fixed' most discrepancies by saying they were later corrected in the timeline.

    This did add to what was there before, what came before was eNT. the KT builds on that. It's an alternate timeline.
    calidhris wrote: »
    Abrams Trek does not respect what came before.

    Bollocks.
    calidhris wrote: »
    It's a mean-spirited parody. Its creators have admitted as much.

    Not even slightly
    calidhris wrote: »
    It portrays a timeline incursion at a pivotal point in the Trek storyline simply so they can completely disregard anything that was released before, and they do it with a vengeance. Into Darkness was not one wee bit better

    Correct. So what's your point? If you understand it's a alternate timeline why are you bothered?
    calidhris wrote: »
    If you look at it closely, the temporal incursion in Abrams Trek does not explain most differences. Abrams Trek does not feel like it's Star Trek at all. The Kelvin alone, a ship supposedly from the prime universe into which the incursion from the prime universe future took place... it should have been a Daedalus class or something, not this monstrosity. The Nerada is equally horrible. Looks like a bad attempt at doing a Shadow vessel from Babylon 5. Certainly not like a Romulan ship.

    A Daedalus? I don't think you can count. The Kelvin is a perfect example of a future version of an ENT era ship. All bare metal, turreted weapons, an industrial look, and realistic bridge. And the Nerada ia a Romulan ship with borg bits. Even if you don't accept that bit it's a civilian mining ship. It's not going to look like a military ship is it?
    calidhris wrote: »
    No other change in or to the Trek universe has ever been this divisive, no other change has ever been this destructive.

    That's cute. Every new series had undergone the same amount of hate.

    calidhris wrote: »
    So, long story short, the hatred for the ships stems from a hatred of those films.

    That's true.
    calidhris wrote: »
    The ships themselves are despised because of what they replace.

    Alternate Timeline, they don't replace anything.

    calidhris wrote: »
    Because they're trying to tell us (as you has in your intro post) that we've go an endgame Connie now - which we don't because that ship does not deserve to be called that.

    It's dedication plaque states Constitution Class.
    calidhris wrote: »
    The ships themselves are despised because of what they represent. Because they're the symbol for all that is wrong with Abrams Trek - which we don't want to see in the game as it constantly reminds us of it.

    There's nothing wrong with the KT and the ships least of all.
    calidhris wrote: »
    and thus they've moved away from trying to please Trekkies. That is not the fault of those players who happen to like Abrams Trek, it's the fault of those who decided to put these vessels into the game in the first place.

    I can hear the bagpipes of the True Scotsman warming up.
    calidhris wrote: »
    This is the reason I asked for a graphics mod in an earlier thread, to allow those of us to have a visual alternative who do not constantly want to be reminded of Abrams Trek through the visuals of the ships, that new uniform pack and (I fear) more stuff to come, without trying to force it on those players who happen to like it.

    Really? Do you think we can do that with the TNG visuals as well because some of us really don't want to see the Galaxy at all. I don't see why we should have TNG shoved down out throats in this ST game. Everybody knows TNG is not 'True Star Trek TM'.

    I've heard people aren't happy with the plots of the two KT films and they aren't exactly the masterpiece that TUC was, but bitching about how much change frightens you is pointless.​​

    The thread should have stopped here.
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    smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,665 Arc User
    So I just saw Beyond. And after that movie, I feel a lot of the hate on the Kelvin Timeline is going to dissipate. Sure some staunch "real" trek fans of "true" trek will vainly try to cling to their hatred, but, yeah, Pegg and Jung really hit home in a great way with this one.

    I really hope you're right. I was never against the Abrams movies simply for existing or for being new or even for being a reboot. My issue was they were helmed by someone who had not merely zero love for Star Trek but was in fact quite vocal in his derision for it --and that showed in the product on screen which was devoid of any of what made Star Trek worth caring about. His movies were empty, mindless action spectacle chock full of shallow, hacky writing and sloppy design work and plot holes you could fit a starbase through, and THAT was the problem I and so many others had with them.

    Simon Pegg is a true lover of Star Trek and of science fiction, and a member of nerddom and fandom himself. He gets it, and it matters to him to get it right. I've been hopeful he could turn things around since I heard he was taking over, and I wish him every measure of luck and success in doing so.​​

    Yep. So far, the JJ films left a nasty flavor in my mouth ~tries gargling with lavender oil~ no luck. Plus I disliked the how the characters were depicted. When ya got someone who has no love for the material they are going to make, it shows. When Peter Jackson, who loves the Tolken books, made Lord of the Rings, he managed to make films BOTH fans and average slobs could enjoy. When making ANYTHING on screen for something with a big fanbase, get a FAN who enjoys it as well to make it, yo.
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    trygvar13trygvar13 Member Posts: 697 Arc User
    trygvar13 wrote: »
    cross821 wrote: »
    I can under the dislike for it being in a lockbox, i got lucky with mine and free zen i get a month. I have both the Jj ships and they are good fun ships.

    That's the only problem I have with those 2 ships. ALthough I'm not a fan of the KT universe ( it's not Star Trek period) I do love the ships. I would have bought them off the C-Store but from a lockbox? Not a chance. Or from the exchange? I don't have the time to farm millions of EC. That's the only hate those ships get from me.

    If you really really loved them, you'd make time to farm the EC.

    ;)

    I wish I could. Been playing since Day 1 and have several chars (mostly KDF) and I never managed to get more than 100mil. Last night they were at 389mil. There is something called real life that makes it near impossible to get that kind of "money" for a lot of us.
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    trygvar13trygvar13 Member Posts: 697 Arc User
    jaguarskx wrote: »
    Personally, I have nothing against JJ-Trek nor the KT ships.

    The movies are action oriented because they need to appeal to a wider global audience. The global market is pretty important considering ticket sales are on the decline in the US. A lot of people have not watched TOS or TNG where the many of the episodes involved a lot of discussion and exposition. Doing that in a movie is not going to attract a lot of viewers. To paraphrase Chris Pine, action and explosions have universal appeal while cerebral discussions do not.

    As for the ships... while they are generally nice, I will likely bother to acquire them. Since they are not C-Store ships, they are not unlocked for the faction when you acquire one. The least expensive KT Heavy Cruiser I saw was around 400m EC. For simplicity sake let's just say 1 master key costs $1 and can be sold on the Exchange for 6m EC. That means I would need to purchase 67 keys ($67) to acquire one KT Heavy Cruiser. If I wanted all 4 of my Fed captains to have that ship, then I would need spend $268 to get 4 ships; assuming no price fluctuation.

    And those are US$. In Canadian $ that would be $362. No way I'm gonna pay that for a ship.
    Dahar Master Qor'aS
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    trygvar13trygvar13 Member Posts: 697 Arc User
    highlord83 wrote: »
    farmallm wrote: »
    ccs46 wrote: »
    farmallm wrote: »

    Nope, it boils down to how JJ ruined Trek to make a mockery out of it. That is equal to something from the Comedy TV channel and other spoof shows.
    This translates to: WHAAAA! THE MOVIE WAS SUCCESSFUL AND DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I THINK TREK IS IS! JUST BECAUSE I HATE IT MAKES IT HORRIBLE AND IT RUINED TREK. I don't see how he ruined trek. Both Trek Movies are very successful. The 2nd wasn't as the first but its that way with all movie sagas. I expect the 3rd to be profitable and the 4th as well. Ok while you stay in your bubble and only version of trek and never see any new stories. We'll be actually supporting what WE love. Which is completely fine.

    This goes for the same ones, saying Whaaaa! Nemesis ruined it! Enterprise ruined it!

    Yes we will get new stories. This is why they doing the TV show to correct the damages for JJ Spoof Trek. When JJ went to produce the movie. He only saw 2 things. He was wanted the $. And he was stuck on his lost series. So he didn't have a clue cause he was ..... lost.

    I sincerely hope that the new series is based in the Kelvin timeline. One, because it'd be great, fun and enjoyable. Two, it would make people like you squeal like stuck pigs and throw public tantrums akin to those of spoiled children. Even better, it'd also likely chase you away back into your holes so the rest of us could enjoy it in peace.

    Now go back to beating your fists on the floor and screaming tears over people liking what you don't like.

    Unfortunately for you it's been confirmed to be in the prime (read REAL) timeline. Not too happy about the time period however: after the signing of the Khitomer Accords. I would have preferred something in the future.
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    trygvar13trygvar13 Member Posts: 697 Arc User
    His movies were empty, mindless action spectacle chock full of shallow, hacky writing and sloppy design work and plot holes you could fit a starbase through, and THAT was the problem I and so many others had with them.​​

    The first one from 2009 was actually pretty solid, and basically an origin-story. No movie is without sin, but the writing, the scope, and especially plot and characters were definately leagues above any TNG-movie. Plot-holes... yup, there certainly are a few. But... every single TNG-movie has a lot more of these.

    The main problem I have (or should say had because I loved Beyond) with the KT is how little science there actually was in the fiction. The Force Awakens had the same problem. The Death Star can fire across light years? You can see the planets being destroyed from Maz's bar? Qo'noS to Earth in 5 minutes? You can see Vulcan from Delta Vega? Spock was a science officer. It certainly didn't show in the first 2 movies.

    I loved the ships however. Even the Kelvin although it only has 1 warp nacelle and should not be able to create a warp field. Loved the looks of the Klingons and their ships but did not like the way they acted.
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    snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    trygvar13 wrote: »
    highlord83 wrote: »
    farmallm wrote: »
    ccs46 wrote: »
    farmallm wrote: »

    Nope, it boils down to how JJ ruined Trek to make a mockery out of it. That is equal to something from the Comedy TV channel and other spoof shows.
    This translates to: WHAAAA! THE MOVIE WAS SUCCESSFUL AND DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I THINK TREK IS IS! JUST BECAUSE I HATE IT MAKES IT HORRIBLE AND IT RUINED TREK. I don't see how he ruined trek. Both Trek Movies are very successful. The 2nd wasn't as the first but its that way with all movie sagas. I expect the 3rd to be profitable and the 4th as well. Ok while you stay in your bubble and only version of trek and never see any new stories. We'll be actually supporting what WE love. Which is completely fine.

    This goes for the same ones, saying Whaaaa! Nemesis ruined it! Enterprise ruined it!

    Yes we will get new stories. This is why they doing the TV show to correct the damages for JJ Spoof Trek. When JJ went to produce the movie. He only saw 2 things. He was wanted the $. And he was stuck on his lost series. So he didn't have a clue cause he was ..... lost.

    I sincerely hope that the new series is based in the Kelvin timeline. One, because it'd be great, fun and enjoyable. Two, it would make people like you squeal like stuck pigs and throw public tantrums akin to those of spoiled children. Even better, it'd also likely chase you away back into your holes so the rest of us could enjoy it in peace.

    Now go back to beating your fists on the floor and screaming tears over people liking what you don't like.

    Unfortunately for you it's been confirmed to be in the prime (read REAL) timeline. Not too happy about the time period however: after the signing of the Khitomer Accords. I would have preferred something in the future.

    Fuller himself debunked those rumors the other day.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    @trygvar13

    Bryan Fuller, showrunner for the new series, flat out denied that the new show was an anthology as well as denied it being set between ST6 and TNG. He also refused to comment on what timeline it takes place in. To boil it down, everything you claimed to be confirmed has been denied by the people making the show.

    Which I was cool with. It makes this once again a very big mystery again. What is it going to be about? The speculation can run rampant! It's adding to my fun and anticipation of the new series.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,113 Arc User
    So, please dont try that IDIC ****...and if you want to bring up Rodenberry, you do realize this **** that is JJTrek would have nauseated him...Besides his many shortcoming's, he didnt want an Action/Adventure show...cause is there a plot in Craptrek besides blow **** up?
    ^^^^
    You've never really bothered to actually sit down and WATCH TOS, have you? I ask because if he didn't was an 'action/adventure show' - he failed miserably with regard to the original Star Trek series then.

    Also, since you DO know the kind of businessman GR was, you should also know the ONLY reason he'd be upset with JJ Abrams Star Trek is if he didn't get his cut of the profits. Beyond that, he'd be hawking everything he could connected to JJ Trek via his Lincoln Enterprises company.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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    farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    So I just saw Beyond. And after that movie, I feel a lot of the hate on the Kelvin Timeline is going to dissipate. Sure some staunch "real" trek fans of "true" trek will vainly try to cling to their hatred, but, yeah, Pegg and Jung really hit home in a great way with this one.

    Mine wont' be until the KU series is dead. And we move on to a whole new series.
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    ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    @redvenge

    It has to be. The power mains HAVE to be tied directly to the warp core. Which pushes energy in the form of highly charged plasma.

    Otherwise that gas is a gigantic plot hole in of itself of what the hell that actually was Spock was fiddling around with.

    And to top it off, how in the name of hell did he know what the problem was when scotty, aka gods gift to engineering couldn't figure it out when he had those few hours to fix the Enterprise?
    You can have any number of controls between the operator and the mains which tie into whatever space-magic makes the Enterprise get the heck away from the Reliant.

    I believe the vapors Spock was exposed to was some sort of visual representation of "teh radiations" so the casual movie-going audience could see the danger Spock was in. Everyone was screaming about "teh radiations", not super-heated gas.

    Scotty turned off the mains because of "teh radiations". Spock didn't do anything about "teh radiations", he just turned the silly engines back on. So the plot hole is "uh... what about them radiations?". Keep in mind Spock's corpse would very likely be lethal to anyone standing a few feet away. They must have magic radiation removing cleaner, or else everyone at his funeral just got leukemia. Unless they can cure leukemia with space magic. Maybe they had some of Khan's blood lying around?

    Sorry lost all creditability by misspelling one of the easiest words in english not just once but over and over... It's spelled THE not teh.
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    snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    ssbn655 wrote: »
    redvenge wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    @redvenge

    It has to be. The power mains HAVE to be tied directly to the warp core. Which pushes energy in the form of highly charged plasma.

    Otherwise that gas is a gigantic plot hole in of itself of what the hell that actually was Spock was fiddling around with.

    And to top it off, how in the name of hell did he know what the problem was when scotty, aka gods gift to engineering couldn't figure it out when he had those few hours to fix the Enterprise?
    You can have any number of controls between the operator and the mains which tie into whatever space-magic makes the Enterprise get the heck away from the Reliant.

    I believe the vapors Spock was exposed to was some sort of visual representation of "teh radiations" so the casual movie-going audience could see the danger Spock was in. Everyone was screaming about "teh radiations", not super-heated gas.

    Scotty turned off the mains because of "teh radiations". Spock didn't do anything about "teh radiations", he just turned the silly engines back on. So the plot hole is "uh... what about them radiations?". Keep in mind Spock's corpse would very likely be lethal to anyone standing a few feet away. They must have magic radiation removing cleaner, or else everyone at his funeral just got leukemia. Unless they can cure leukemia with space magic. Maybe they had some of Khan's blood lying around?

    Sorry lost all creditability by misspelling one of the easiest words in english not just once but over and over... It's spelled THE not teh.

    I see what you did there!

    #snarkynotsnarky
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    ussexeter#5462 ussexeter Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    I'm just trying to find where you even acquire Kelvin Timeline ships.
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    talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    ssbn655 wrote: »
    redvenge wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    @redvenge

    It has to be. The power mains HAVE to be tied directly to the warp core. Which pushes energy in the form of highly charged plasma.

    Otherwise that gas is a gigantic plot hole in of itself of what the hell that actually was Spock was fiddling around with.

    And to top it off, how in the name of hell did he know what the problem was when scotty, aka gods gift to engineering couldn't figure it out when he had those few hours to fix the Enterprise?
    You can have any number of controls between the operator and the mains which tie into whatever space-magic makes the Enterprise get the heck away from the Reliant.

    I believe the vapors Spock was exposed to was some sort of visual representation of "teh radiations" so the casual movie-going audience could see the danger Spock was in. Everyone was screaming about "teh radiations", not super-heated gas.

    Scotty turned off the mains because of "teh radiations". Spock didn't do anything about "teh radiations", he just turned the silly engines back on. So the plot hole is "uh... what about them radiations?". Keep in mind Spock's corpse would very likely be lethal to anyone standing a few feet away. They must have magic radiation removing cleaner, or else everyone at his funeral just got leukemia. Unless they can cure leukemia with space magic. Maybe they had some of Khan's blood lying around?

    Sorry lost all creditability by misspelling one of the easiest words in english not just once but over and over... It's spelled THE not teh.

    Really, All i did was type faster than I could think and all the hate. Get over it, jesus.
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    knightheart2knightheart2 Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    I have one in use by my main, a second in a box and it's a fine ship. I like using it, I'm not entirely sold on the look of the ship. Ultimately this is only a game. It's meant to be a fun, entertaining, diversion from life and it does that for me well. I haven't been on the receiving end of any venom, I do understand it's out there... I say this affirmatively We are all nerds. As the owner of two of them I would like to say, I wish they were available to everyone.
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    knightheart2knightheart2 Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    A T-6 J.J. prise I mean.
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