I think what it comes down to is that Trek ships have always ine very isntallment varied in size because when they had physical models there were several shooting models of different size and depending on which model was used for a scene the sizes would change. But usually it was subtle enough to not cause that much confusion.
When we have CGI, we would naturally assume that the models would always be the same but it seems that is still not the case. They still use different models for different shots for some sort of dramatic effect. So the only scientific way to agree on a in-universe real size is to use the mean value so to speak and look at how many scenes support size A, how many size B and how many size C and whichever skews the distribution the most has to be the size one should agree on.
Or you take CBS word on that it is 700-ish meters length, always will be and was intented to be this size despite canon clearly showing a difference. This is a classic problem where the two are so radically different that you have to settle for one.
IP holder says: Big ship
STO uses IP holder's paramters: Big ship (relative to the original, STO has of course much more ridoncolous huge ships)
Shuttle scene and, as I read, some sort of scene where someone runs through a big corridor towards the bridge which couldn't be possible on a smaller ship as well as engineering section and a number of warp cores on board: Big ship.
Most other visual clues from canon: Smaller sized ship.
You will never be able to make sense of these in-universe - save for using the Inflatable Starship Decoy
EDIT: Removed opinonated terms
Post edited by angrytarg on
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I honestly don't understand where you are pulling the "reasonable" in your "reasonable sized ship" from when we're talking about two completely different tech levels... The prime Connie was never built in the KT, its not there to be used as a standard against which to judge ships from that setting.
I honestly don't understand where you are pulling the "reasonable" in your "reasonable sized ship" from when we're talking about two completely different tech levels... The prime Connie was never built in the KT, its not there to be used as a standard against which to judge ships from that setting.
That's just my own opinion because I find the big version aesthetically unpleasing. But you're right, to be fair I can change that term to something neutral
Ooohhh... They need to make an Inflatable Starship Decoy console!
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I also chuckle at "Or you take CBS word on that it is 700-ish meters length, always will be and was intented to be this size despite canon clearly showing a difference."
Given that CBS is giving clear an unequivocal instructions to licensees on how to treat the KT Enterprise, including recent images in magazines and its appearance in STO, that IS the "canon". They've flatly abandoned the old rule of 'what's on screen is the only canon' or at least have learned to ignore mistakes instead of being hogtied by them. Which to me is a blessing because the actual quality across 700+ episodes (and movies) is highly variable and frankly there's simply no good reason to elevate screenwriters over every other kind of writer that's ever served the setting. If whoever heads up continuity over at CBS was to release an actual list of what they consider the framework future work should be based on (the practical function of 'canon' when not providing fuel for nerdrage) it would be a friken MIRACLE and to my mind the start of a golden age. One where some of the writing that far outshines 99% of Voyager might get its due.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but even if CBS tells cryptic the ship is big that's still not canon. Last official word we have is the on-screen thing and as such canon still is what happens on screen. CBS has always released official works regarding starships, but those almost always cotnradict what actually was happening on screen, that's nothing new. It only gets a problem in this case because a information like the ship size varies so much within a single movie and it is even officially admitted that it does so. In this case I would go for secondary sources and I personally take it that at this point the official size of the ship is supposed to be the big version. That however doesn't change the fact that the model was created to be smaller scale (also admitted) and as such looks silly (in my opinion) in the big version. There's still canon, official info and finally personal taste
Canon is inconclusive but hints at smaller scale overall (visit ex-astris, pretty good analysis which still doesn't change the fact that the ship is both big and small in canon), official info says big, personal taste says small
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Not really. Got a scale for those shuttles? Hell, for that matter have you got a scale for the Intrepids shuttlebay? Size of the Delta Flyer and Nelix's ship?
There you are, sir. As you can see, the scale of the JJ shuttlecraft are easily 1/3 larger (if not two times larger) than the TOS shuttlecraft. That would make the JJ Enterprise even larger than my original images suggest. Have any other queries on the subject?
Don't forget that the engineering deck, with those inexplicable hundreds of feet of giant water tubes in it and the craptons of warp cores they eject at the end, all need to fit in there as well somehow.
It's only fair, though, because they did the same crappy thing with the TMP Enterprise, where the entire secondary hull would need to be shuttle/cargo bay despite main engineering and the rec deck somehow being in there as well.
Good. Now the same for the Delta Flyer and Nelix's ship plus 30 odd Type 9 shuttles and an explanation of Voyagers shuttlebay. Then an attempt to call any comparisons of shuttle bays off in favour of features that actually matter like the windows and corridors with clearly seen people on the other side.
I did say that that scene was the only one in the film that supports a larger size but also that all of the other evidence points against it.
Do you have an explanation for why there is a bridge/catwalk across a chasm in the middle of the Vengeance for no logical or apparent reason while you are at it?
JJ's directing in the NuTrek movies makes the chompers scene in Galaxy Quest look quaint.
The Ent-E had one of those too.
Maybe it's a standard feature for Federation starships?
I honestly believe they would make more money through the c-store than a lockbox, because far more people would pick it up that way. if it's a lockbox, I'll just settle for the JJ uniforms ... the size of the JJ-prise has already turned me off anyway.
I'm not sure what would make more money to be honest.
I know personally, if the Vengeance was in the C-Store for 3k Zen, I would buy it. I won't buy keys and try to win it, so in my particular case.. what you believe is true.
But on the other hand, I know people that will dump $100 or more into keys just trying to win a ship that they 'must have.' I don't know anyone that would pay 10k Zen for 1 C-Store ship.
While I would prefer that everything be in the C-Store, I get why they do lock boxes. Honestly, it's shocking how much money some people will dump into keys trying to get that one grand prize. Just wait till the box drops, every time it happens we get threads from posters complaining that they spent absurd amounts and didn't get the ship.
There also remains the possibility of the Dreadnought being a 'pack' (i.e DOFF or crafting) prize as oposed to a lock box prize.
Replaying to this entire string:
The idea that people spend hundreds of dollars on lockbox ships, even on average, is one of those statistics that people believe because they hear it all the time, but logically can't be true. The vast majority of people do not just keep opening boxes until they get a ship, which is the basis for the odds we use to get these figures. Normal people say "I have $20, I am going to buy some keys and see if I get one". Each of those keys has exactly the same odds of getting a ship as the ones from people opening 100 boxes; the odds of getting a ship don't actually go up the more boxes you open, just like your odds of getting a payout from a slot machine don't change the more times you pull the arm. This is a misconception that's so deeply ingrained in our culture that it's hard to wrap your head around - fixed odds are not like the lottery, you don't improve your chances by buying more tickets. This applies to slots, blackjack, craps, roulette, and yes, lockboxes.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
And, with this I'm done with the game. The whole JJTrek abomination is such an affront to the legacy of Star Trek, that I cannot be part of it any further.
I waited a long time for this game. I signed up for it the second it was announced, perhaps 10 years ago? It's been a disappointment from the beginning, and has actually degenerated as time has gone by. Now this.
It leaves me very sad and frustrated.
Don't worry, this is where any crossover will likely end. It's almost certain that Paramount paid for this in-game ad for their new movie, chances are they won't pay for more.
Also - all those comments about CBS this and CBS that? This content isn't controlled by CBS; all the Kelvin-verse stuff is owned exclusively by Paramount. Likely the only input CBS had is saying "yes, but only in a lockbox" when Cryptic said Paramount had approached them for a cross promotion deal.
There might be options in ship customization...maybe
It is the only ship listed so far in the up coming expansion that I would
bother with trying to get.
And, with this I'm done with the game. The whole JJTrek abomination is such an affront to the legacy of Star Trek, that I cannot be part of it any further.
I waited a long time for this game. I signed up for it the second it was announced, perhaps 10 years ago? It's been a disappointment from the beginning, and has actually degenerated as time has gone by. Now this.
Do you have an explanation for why there is a bridge/catwalk across a chasm in the middle of the Vengeance for no logical or apparent reason while you are at it?
JJ's directing in the NuTrek movies makes the chompers scene in Galaxy Quest look quaint.
Oh thats easy! He was prepping for Star Wars epVII and forgot which IP he was directing for again.
And, with this I'm done with the game. The whole JJTrek abomination is such an affront to the legacy of Star Trek, that I cannot be part of it any further.
I waited a long time for this game. I signed up for it the second it was announced, perhaps 10 years ago? It's been a disappointment from the beginning, and has actually degenerated as time has gone by. Now this.
Oh, she's big alright. As I noted when I took the shots in the imgur folder above.
Well, I just lost all interest in buying it then. Would only ever consider flying one if I could replace that hideous neck with the TMP version.
actually it's not the neck that bothers me it has always been the position of the nacelles on the pylons they are too far forwards but still love the ship, the Enterprise in Star Trek Beyond have the pylons swept back but the nacelles are still too far forward like the TMP Enterprise, unlike the Enterprise in '09 Star Trek and Into Darkness which resembles more the TOS straight up and down pylons again still love the ship and hope it is available in Z-store over lock box along with others i.e. D-4 etc.
I honestly believe they would make more money through the c-store than a lockbox, because far more people would pick it up that way. if it's a lockbox, I'll just settle for the JJ uniforms ... the size of the JJ-prise has already turned me off anyway.
I'm not sure what would make more money to be honest.
I know personally, if the Vengeance was in the C-Store for 3k Zen, I would buy it. I won't buy keys and try to win it, so in my particular case.. what you believe is true.
But on the other hand, I know people that will dump $100 or more into keys just trying to win a ship that they 'must have.' I don't know anyone that would pay 10k Zen for 1 C-Store ship.
While I would prefer that everything be in the C-Store, I get why they do lock boxes. Honestly, it's shocking how much money some people will dump into keys trying to get that one grand prize. Just wait till the box drops, every time it happens we get threads from posters complaining that they spent absurd amounts and didn't get the ship.
There also remains the possibility of the Dreadnought being a 'pack' (i.e DOFF or crafting) prize as oposed to a lock box prize.
But the problem is that pack prizes are cross-faction while there is a lack of Kelvin Universe Romulan ships. The Narada can be classified as a C-Store ship since it originally belonged in the STO universe before being sent to the Kelvin Universe. Each new lockbox requires 2 new cross-faction ships or 6 faction ships. So Cryptic will need to make the JJprise or Vengeance into a cross-faction ship or make new Kelvin Universe ships.
And, with this I'm done with the game. The whole JJTrek abomination is such an affront to the legacy of Star Trek, that I cannot be part of it any further.
I waited a long time for this game. I signed up for it the second it was announced, perhaps 10 years ago? It's been a disappointment from the beginning, and has actually degenerated as time has gone by. Now this.
It leaves me very sad and frustrated.
good riddance less lag for the rest of us and no I don't want your stuffz.
And, with this I'm done with the game. The whole JJTrek abomination is such an affront to the legacy of Star Trek, that I cannot be part of it any further.
I waited a long time for this game. I signed up for it the second it was announced, perhaps 10 years ago? It's been a disappointment from the beginning, and has actually degenerated as time has gone by. Now this.
It leaves me very sad and frustrated.
Feel free to mail me your stuff.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again."
-Dedication plaque of the Federation Starship U.S.S. Merkava
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,689Community Moderator
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Yea... its thanks to that analysis that my personal headcanon is for a 366 meter AR Connie.
Then look forward to the cognitive dissonance every time you see one in game . Because the IP owners have a different vision and they're being pretty clear on it.
That analysis is also wrong in at least two places - there are several scenes that require a (much) larger ship, including other interiors and the image posted earlier of workers crawling around on the hull. Plus its claim "big for no reason" is flatly untrue - it's big because its a different timeline, one specifically based on a technological awareness of a really big ship. When someone bases their argument on either willful misrepresentation or a painful lack of imagination, I tend to subject the rest of their points to a bit more critical scrutiny... Basically its not an honest analysis because he'd decided on his conclusion first and then went back and hammered the details to fit, leaving out those that didn't support or outright contradict the pre-determined position.
I hope the phasers are pulse type like the wrath of kahn, the hand phaser shown in those new pics has me excited, like the jj version klingons. I agree the ship must be big, my biggest problem with the ship is the back of the neck and how far back it meets the ship. I can deal with the giant muscle car hot rod nacelles, but the neck does bother me about the design of the jj-prise. Right now my biggest fear is that we would have chris pine voice a kirk before Shatner would.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I hope the phasers are pulse type like the wrath of kahn, the hand phaser shown in those new pics has me excited, like the jj version klingons. I agree the ship must be big, my biggest problem with the ship is the back of the neck and how far back it meets the ship. I can deal with the giant muscle car hot rod nacelles, but the neck does bother me about the design of the jj-prise. Right now my biggest fear is that we would have chris pine voice a kirk before Shatner would.
Both actors have done voice-over work as the Enterprise's captain for video games. Having some dialogue with "Admiral Kirk" of the KT could be quite fun .
Comments
When we have CGI, we would naturally assume that the models would always be the same but it seems that is still not the case. They still use different models for different shots for some sort of dramatic effect. So the only scientific way to agree on a in-universe real size is to use the mean value so to speak and look at how many scenes support size A, how many size B and how many size C and whichever skews the distribution the most has to be the size one should agree on.
Or you take CBS word on that it is 700-ish meters length, always will be and was intented to be this size despite canon clearly showing a difference. This is a classic problem where the two are so radically different that you have to settle for one.
IP holder says: Big ship
STO uses IP holder's paramters: Big ship (relative to the original, STO has of course much more ridoncolous huge ships)
Shuttle scene and, as I read, some sort of scene where someone runs through a big corridor towards the bridge which couldn't be possible on a smaller ship as well as engineering section and a number of warp cores on board: Big ship.
Most other visual clues from canon: Smaller sized ship.
You will never be able to make sense of these in-universe - save for using the Inflatable Starship Decoy
EDIT: Removed opinonated terms
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Ooohhh... They need to make an Inflatable Starship Decoy console!
That's just my own opinion because I find the big version aesthetically unpleasing. But you're right, to be fair I can change that term to something neutral
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Given that CBS is giving clear an unequivocal instructions to licensees on how to treat the KT Enterprise, including recent images in magazines and its appearance in STO, that IS the "canon". They've flatly abandoned the old rule of 'what's on screen is the only canon' or at least have learned to ignore mistakes instead of being hogtied by them. Which to me is a blessing because the actual quality across 700+ episodes (and movies) is highly variable and frankly there's simply no good reason to elevate screenwriters over every other kind of writer that's ever served the setting. If whoever heads up continuity over at CBS was to release an actual list of what they consider the framework future work should be based on (the practical function of 'canon' when not providing fuel for nerdrage) it would be a friken MIRACLE and to my mind the start of a golden age. One where some of the writing that far outshines 99% of Voyager might get its due.
Ah, to dream.
Canon is inconclusive but hints at smaller scale overall (visit ex-astris, pretty good analysis which still doesn't change the fact that the ship is both big and small in canon), official info says big, personal taste says small
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Maybe it's a standard feature for Federation starships?
My character Tsin'xing
Yep, that worked, thanks. (Man, you could attach it as an auxiliary craft)
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Replaying to this entire string:
The idea that people spend hundreds of dollars on lockbox ships, even on average, is one of those statistics that people believe because they hear it all the time, but logically can't be true. The vast majority of people do not just keep opening boxes until they get a ship, which is the basis for the odds we use to get these figures. Normal people say "I have $20, I am going to buy some keys and see if I get one". Each of those keys has exactly the same odds of getting a ship as the ones from people opening 100 boxes; the odds of getting a ship don't actually go up the more boxes you open, just like your odds of getting a payout from a slot machine don't change the more times you pull the arm. This is a misconception that's so deeply ingrained in our culture that it's hard to wrap your head around - fixed odds are not like the lottery, you don't improve your chances by buying more tickets. This applies to slots, blackjack, craps, roulette, and yes, lockboxes.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Don't worry, this is where any crossover will likely end. It's almost certain that Paramount paid for this in-game ad for their new movie, chances are they won't pay for more.
Also - all those comments about CBS this and CBS that? This content isn't controlled by CBS; all the Kelvin-verse stuff is owned exclusively by Paramount. Likely the only input CBS had is saying "yes, but only in a lockbox" when Cryptic said Paramount had approached them for a cross promotion deal.
It is the only ship listed so far in the up coming expansion that I would
bother with trying to get.
the others including the flying pancakes....meh
Oh thats easy! He was prepping for Star Wars epVII and forgot which IP he was directing for again.
damn he beat me to it
https://imgur.com/a/j2sR4
also so much cool stuff my KDF alts need... @.@
actually it's not the neck that bothers me it has always been the position of the nacelles on the pylons they are too far forwards but still love the ship, the Enterprise in Star Trek Beyond have the pylons swept back but the nacelles are still too far forward like the TMP Enterprise, unlike the Enterprise in '09 Star Trek and Into Darkness which resembles more the TOS straight up and down pylons again still love the ship and hope it is available in Z-store over lock box along with others i.e. D-4 etc.
that's my two bars worth
But the problem is that pack prizes are cross-faction while there is a lack of Kelvin Universe Romulan ships. The Narada can be classified as a C-Store ship since it originally belonged in the STO universe before being sent to the Kelvin Universe. Each new lockbox requires 2 new cross-faction ships or 6 faction ships. So Cryptic will need to make the JJprise or Vengeance into a cross-faction ship or make new Kelvin Universe ships.
good riddance less lag for the rest of us and no I don't want your stuffz.
Feel free to mail me your stuff.
-Dedication plaque of the Federation Starship U.S.S. Merkava
Yea... its thanks to that analysis that my personal headcanon is for a 366 meter AR Connie.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Then look forward to the cognitive dissonance every time you see one in game
That analysis is also wrong in at least two places - there are several scenes that require a (much) larger ship, including other interiors and the image posted earlier of workers crawling around on the hull. Plus its claim "big for no reason" is flatly untrue - it's big because its a different timeline, one specifically based on a technological awareness of a really big ship. When someone bases their argument on either willful misrepresentation or a painful lack of imagination, I tend to subject the rest of their points to a bit more critical scrutiny... Basically its not an honest analysis because he'd decided on his conclusion first and then went back and hammered the details to fit, leaving out those that didn't support or outright contradict the pre-determined position.
that klingon helmet looks like a bonemold one from elder scrolls
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Both actors have done voice-over work as the Enterprise's captain for video games. Having some dialogue with "Admiral Kirk" of the KT could be quite fun