Maybe we should shut down this thread anyway, at least once we're close to the end of September so we can create a fresh "Discovery" topic. So what I'm saying is maybe @baddmoonrizin could - assuming nobody flames which required immediate action - simply put an expiration date on this one. Discovery will air September 24th in the US, so the speculations this thread was about would come to an end anyway.
+1. Let us see what discovery brings us.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
On the subject of "Deus ex Transporter", for the example with Dr. Pulaski I always assumed it was less making her from scratch using her DNA, and more the "bad" DNA (since it was some altered genetic thing she was afflicted with) being replaced with a sample they knew was good.
Less "writing a novel from one sentence" and more "find 'heelo', replace with 'hello'".
But anyway, as for Discovery itself. Is anyone else really annoyed at the fact that it's set before TOS, yet Starfleet deltas are ALL OVER the uniforms? Despite the fact that, at that point, every ship had its own unique emblem at that point?
Admiral Katrina Tokareva - U.S.S. Cosmos, Yorktown-class Star Cruiser Admiral Dananra Lekall - R.R.W. Teverresh, Deihu-class Warbird General J'Kar son of K'tsulan - I.K.S. Dlahath, Vo'devwl-class Carrier
But anyway, as for Discovery itself. Is anyone else really annoyed at the fact that it's set before TOS, yet Starfleet deltas are ALL OVER the uniforms? Despite the fact that, at that point, every ship had its own unique emblem at that point?
The badge thing is one of those "intent versus shown" things. It might have been that they wanted to have a badge for every ship, but the show itself wasn't consistent with it at all. At this point it is more reasonable to assume the Chevron has always been the default and different sectors, assignments or fleets might have featured a different badge.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
ENT era Starfleet command, the Franklin, Kelvin, every ship in the KT fleet, some of the Defiants crew, the crew from Court Martial, the crew of the USS Aerial. No the delta has always been the Starfleet symbol and other emblems obiously have different reasons for being. I don't even know where this myth of the delta being exclusive to the Enterprise comes from when even TOS and TAS disprove it.
Edit: and now the Shinzou and Discovery can be added to the extensive list of ships that also use the delta. That now means they outnumber ships with their own insignia.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
(...)
Edit: and now the Shinzou and Discovery can be added to the extensive list of ships that also use the delta. That now means they outnumber ships with their own insignia.
I agree with you, but to be fair since the question was regarding DSC, using DSC as evidence tot he contrary doesn't really work if the original question was "didn't they make a mistake" - of course it becomes canon but you know what I mean. It's putting the cart before the horse
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
(...)
Edit: and now the Shinzou and Discovery can be added to the extensive list of ships that also use the delta. That now means they outnumber ships with their own insignia.
I agree with you, but to be fair since the question was regarding DSC, using DSC as evidence tot he contrary doesn't really work if the original question was "didn't they make a mistake" - of course it becomes canon but you know what I mean. It's putting the cart before the horse
That was why I edited them in after the argument had already been made. I think there are enough counter examples without the DSC ones to outnumber the indervidual patches anyway but it still throw those two in for good mesure.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Elba institute jumpers had an open hand and flying dove.
Every starbase officer wore a sunburst type device.
TOS was very specific in showing that the Delta belonged to Enterprise, which at that time was supposed to be fourth of twelve Starship class vessels.
TNG changed that by making the delta universal for all of Starfleet. It's called a Retcon. Post TNG, it is retroactively assumed the delta was in use everywhere for everyone ever since.
So, it is canon for Discovery to use the delta, because Starfleet always used a delta, but the historical reenactment of the Captain Kirk holonovels took some artistic license with the period uniforms.
Maybe we should shut down this thread anyway, at least once we're close to the end of September so we can create a fresh "Discovery" topic. So what I'm saying is maybe @baddmoonrizin could - assuming nobody flames which required immediate action - simply put an expiration date on this one. Discovery will air September 24th in the US, so the speculations this thread was about would come to an end anyway.
+1. Let us see what discovery brings us.
I concur with the both of you, @angrytarg and @mirrorchaos , because this thread isn't even talking about its original premise anymore.
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Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Elba institute jumpers had an open hand and flying dove.
Every starbase officer wore a sunburst type device.
TOS was very specific in showing that the Delta belonged to Enterprise, which at that time was supposed to be fourth of twelve Starship class vessels.
TNG changed that by making the delta universal for all of Starfleet. It's called a Retcon. Post TNG, it is retroactively assumed the delta was in use everywhere for everyone ever since.
So, it is canon for Discovery to use the delta, because Starfleet always used a delta, but the historical reenactment of the Captain Kirk holonovels took some artistic license with the period uniforms.
I can find no reference to a 'Elba institute', and the sunburst was for Starfleet Command personnel, not starbase personnel. But no, TOS was not specific about it at all as I already pointed out...
Court Martial
USS Ariel
USS Defiant
Ones you missed include... Outpost personnel (with their own uniform colour and material)
USS Bonaventure (Post ENT pre TOS era ship)
USS Antares (Cage era not TOS)
USS Huron (TOS era)
The reason was revealed recently. There was an email (buggered if I can find it where it was explained the different patches corresponded to different branches, USS Antares' badge was the cargo service (an old Cage era one soon replaced by the TOS era USS Huron one, The delta was the main fleet, the starburst Starfleet Command, the flower thing was Outposts etc.
ENT was the reason that no longer works as they introduced a patch for the Defiant based on the popular myth of ship based patches and ignoring the fact that the crew of the Defiant wore the delta.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
This is a link to the email. I'm not risking editing my post because it'll vanish because this forum is still broken any nobody cares enough to fix it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
A simple easy to understand solution that gives the writers clear limits to work within, as opposed to just making it up as you go.
One would think so, but no TV show has ever done that. Not even Babylon 5( where the series creator had a grand schema that covered 9 SERIES each with a thought-out beginning and end) had that level of planning. Why? because it's a lot more work than writing a series. JMS thought out origins for everything important, BUT he also left room to toss in weird random stuff.
This is a TV show where the opening credits for the first episode hint that things are gonna go south so hard that it'll hit rock bottom and make a crack in it. But that was not in series 1 or 2, we actually have no idea when JMS was planning to bring back Babylon 4.
But Zathras? Zathras had a sad life, but no one even knows what race Zathras was. This was actually a plot point since the alliance hadn't met his race yet. Did JMS write out a full backstory for that race? probably not. Then you have that one planet that was actually a giant observation platform built not-even-the-Vorlons-know-when. Those are part of the big picture but may or may not have been "fully developed".
But then you have all the random aliens and random alien tech. Every now and then an artifact would be found from a dead race. Most of these are seen in only one ep, and never mentioned again. Why? Because they're not part of the big picture.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
On the subject of "Deus ex Transporter", for the example with Dr. Pulaski I always assumed it was less making her from scratch using her DNA, and more the "bad" DNA (since it was some altered genetic thing she was afflicted with) being replaced with a sample they knew was good.
Less "writing a novel from one sentence" and more "find 'heelo', replace with 'hello'".
But anyway, as for Discovery itself. Is anyone else really annoyed at the fact that it's set before TOS, yet Starfleet deltas are ALL OVER the uniforms? Despite the fact that, at that point, every ship had its own unique emblem at that point?
Hell, the deltas are on the communicators, the phasers, the tricorder, even the friggin seats on the shuttle. They went way overboard putting them on everything. Probably even on the toilet seat too.
Sorry, you're mistaken. A replicator is indeed based on transporter technology. From Memory Alpha:
"A replicator was a device that used transporter technology to dematerialize quantities of matter and then rematerialize that matter in another form.(TNG: "Lonely Among Us") It was also capable of inverting its function, thus disposing of leftovers and dishes. (DS9: "Hard Time", "The Ascent"; VOY: "Memorial") Items thus disposed of served to fuel the replicator, and would later be reconstituted as other objects. (VOY: "Year of Hell") "
The same article you just quoted lists replicator limitations just a few sentences later. In addition I refer to the technical manuals when canon leaves a gap in such information and both the TNG and VGR TMs cover the topic.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
And given that we have no Council of Trent, "canon" for Trek is still "what's been filmed". Those tech manuals aren't really any more canon than our speculations here, and for myself I give greater weight to explanations that are at least internally consistent. The supposed limitations that have been quoted for replicators just don't make sense. (Of course, without nonsensical limits, replicators become a deus ex machina, but that's not our concern here.)
And given that we have no Council of Trent, "canon" for Trek is still "what's been filmed". Those tech manuals aren't really any more canon than our speculations here, and for myself I give greater weight to explanations that are at least internally consistent. The supposed limitations that have been quoted for replicators just don't make sense. (Of course, without nonsensical limits, replicators become a deus ex machina, but that's not our concern here.)
I never said they were, but given the TMs were meant to advise the actual script writers on how things work I take it as the second best thing personally. And in those, the difference is actually explained as I outlined earlier. So yes, one can dismiss that but then just making up head canon because there were no explanations given is just as questionable. Also, the limitations of replicators is actually canon and brought up in a number of episodes.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
And given that we have no Council of Trent, "canon" for Trek is still "what's been filmed". Those tech manuals aren't really any more canon than our speculations here, and for myself I give greater weight to explanations that are at least internally consistent. The supposed limitations that have been quoted for replicators just don't make sense. (Of course, without nonsensical limits, replicators become a deus ex machina, but that's not our concern here.)
which specific things do you find to be internally inconsistent?
And given that we have no Council of Trent, "canon" for Trek is still "what's been filmed". Those tech manuals aren't really any more canon than our speculations here, and for myself I give greater weight to explanations that are at least internally consistent. The supposed limitations that have been quoted for replicators just don't make sense. (Of course, without nonsensical limits, replicators become a deus ex machina, but that's not our concern here.)
which specific things do you find to be internally inconsistent?
Vulcan's moon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
And given that we have no Council of Trent, "canon" for Trek is still "what's been filmed". Those tech manuals aren't really any more canon than our speculations here, and for myself I give greater weight to explanations that are at least internally consistent. The supposed limitations that have been quoted for replicators just don't make sense. (Of course, without nonsensical limits, replicators become a deus ex machina, but that's not our concern here.)
which specific things do you find to be internally inconsistent?
An argument, for example, that postulates that while replicators can make any food desired, they can't make deuterium, which is nothing more than a stable isotope of hydrogen - a necessary ingredient of most foodstuffs. If it can only rearrange atoms, then you'll need to stock a full array of the stable elements - you can't make salt without sodium and chlorine, for example. And that's going to require some pretty huge storage tanks, since the limits on the system also include that you can't just store the transporter patterns of the ingredients (remember that the basis of this argument is that the replicator can't synthesize the elements, just rearrange them).
Oh, and you'd better make sure you store all those elements really securely - sodium reacts explosively in the presence of oxygen and hydrogen, remember. And chlorine, in its gaseous state, is a lethal poison to most carbon-based life forms.
If, on the other hand, the replicator can synthesize the elements that go into food, there's no sane reason it can't replicate deuterium.
The original human colonial period prior to the invention of warp drive hinted at in The Cage and Metamorphisis is contradicted in FC, in which humanity develops warp drive right after the Eugenics Wars, and later contradicted in Enterprise when instead of hundreds of ships spreading out in every direction, seeding humans on 'a thousand worlds', we have Vulcans limiting what humans are allowed to do.
Transporters capable of accidentally duplicating beings which cannot be intentionally duplicated. With Pulaski and Angry Kirk/Maudlin Kirk as examples, someone should figure out how to beam back that dead crewman alive and well. Further, transporters routinely identify and purge harmful life forms and disable weapons while still in the 'buffer', so why not simply repair that nasty disruptor burn before you materialize your Redshirt?
Warp drives which can be tweaked by Kelvins to achieve Warp 13, but later we discover nothing can exceed Warp 10 because at that speed you are instantaneously everywhere.
And instead of perfecting Warp 10 we get slipstream which apparently is faster than Warp 9.98 but not as fast as Warp 10.
Romulans lacking warp drive, instead relying on simple Impulse power, which was a key plot element of one episode, yet by the time of Enterprise, prior to the assertion by one of Starfleet's finest engineers that they indeed do not use Warp, they operate high speed warp capable remote control drones telepathically.
Advanced replicator technology which can create diamonds, rubies, emeralds, and gold, but not latinum. (If you can manipulate subatomic particles to create crystaline lattices metals, and hydrocarbon chains, what is it about latinum which renders it unreplicatable?)
The list is getting long, and I'm not even warmed up. All of these examples are from film and broadcast Trek, not books, comics, or fanflicks. And yes, I understand the concept of Retcon, so please don't refute my thesis on that basis.
Star Trek is riddled with inconsistencies, but there is a reason: Star Trek is on the Speculative side of the Science Fiction continuum, and writers use whatever they think works in their story to make the point of the story.
There is no canon. Not even a canonball. Star Trek is whatever the writers of the moment decide it is, and that is how it's always been since the United Earth Federation morphed into The United Federation Of Planets in TOS Season 1.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
There is no canon. Not even a canonball. Star Trek is whatever the writers of the moment decide it is, and that is how it's always been since the United Earth Federation morphed into The United Federation Of Planets in TOS Season 1.
You're getting canon confused with continuity. Canon is the official version of what happened even if it's internally contradictory (look no further than the set of texts that spawned the word canon in the first place after the First Council of Nicaea). Continuity implies internal consistency and references.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
There really is no logical reason, beyond limitations in computer storage that would constrain the amount of pattern storage or force the use of compressed patterns, that anything that can be transported cannot also be replicated. And if the pattern can't be stored for whatever reason, you can get around that by using a physical sample to scan and thus duplicate.
(...)
Whatever the reasons are is not important. Important is that it's not possible to do that and that is true for the universe we are looking at. Things don't have to be logical, they are written pieces of fiction. As I said, the writer's guide/TM explains it indeed via storage space and lower "transporter resolution" in a replicator. A laser in a CD drive and one to cut things are different as well, but they are both lasers. A food replicator is different from a industrial replicator is different from a transporter.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
+1. Let us see what discovery brings us.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Less "writing a novel from one sentence" and more "find 'heelo', replace with 'hello'".
But anyway, as for Discovery itself. Is anyone else really annoyed at the fact that it's set before TOS, yet Starfleet deltas are ALL OVER the uniforms? Despite the fact that, at that point, every ship had its own unique emblem at that point?
Admiral Dananra Lekall - R.R.W. Teverresh, Deihu-class Warbird
General J'Kar son of K'tsulan - I.K.S. Dlahath, Vo'devwl-class Carrier
The badge thing is one of those "intent versus shown" things. It might have been that they wanted to have a badge for every ship, but the show itself wasn't consistent with it at all. At this point it is more reasonable to assume the Chevron has always been the default and different sectors, assignments or fleets might have featured a different badge.
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Edit: and now the Shinzou and Discovery can be added to the extensive list of ships that also use the delta. That now means they outnumber ships with their own insignia.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I agree with you, but to be fair since the question was regarding DSC, using DSC as evidence tot he contrary doesn't really work if the original question was "didn't they make a mistake" - of course it becomes canon but you know what I mean. It's putting the cart before the horse
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That was why I edited them in after the argument had already been made. I think there are enough counter examples without the DSC ones to outnumber the indervidual patches anyway but it still throw those two in for good mesure.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Elba institute jumpers had an open hand and flying dove.
Every starbase officer wore a sunburst type device.
TOS was very specific in showing that the Delta belonged to Enterprise, which at that time was supposed to be fourth of twelve Starship class vessels.
TNG changed that by making the delta universal for all of Starfleet. It's called a Retcon. Post TNG, it is retroactively assumed the delta was in use everywhere for everyone ever since.
So, it is canon for Discovery to use the delta, because Starfleet always used a delta, but the historical reenactment of the Captain Kirk holonovels took some artistic license with the period uniforms.
I concur with the both of you, @angrytarg and @mirrorchaos , because this thread isn't even talking about its original premise anymore.
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I can find no reference to a 'Elba institute', and the sunburst was for Starfleet Command personnel, not starbase personnel. But no, TOS was not specific about it at all as I already pointed out...
Court Martial
USS Ariel
USS Defiant
Ones you missed include...
Outpost personnel (with their own uniform colour and material)
USS Bonaventure (Post ENT pre TOS era ship)
USS Antares (Cage era not TOS)
USS Huron (TOS era)
The reason was revealed recently. There was an email (buggered if I can find it where it was explained the different patches corresponded to different branches, USS Antares' badge was the cargo service (an old Cage era one soon replaced by the TOS era USS Huron one, The delta was the main fleet, the starburst Starfleet Command, the flower thing was Outposts etc.
ENT was the reason that no longer works as they introduced a patch for the Defiant based on the popular myth of ship based patches and ignoring the fact that the crew of the Defiant wore the delta.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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This is a TV show where the opening credits for the first episode hint that things are gonna go south so hard that it'll hit rock bottom and make a crack in it. But that was not in series 1 or 2, we actually have no idea when JMS was planning to bring back Babylon 4.
But Zathras? Zathras had a sad life, but no one even knows what race Zathras was. This was actually a plot point since the alliance hadn't met his race yet. Did JMS write out a full backstory for that race? probably not. Then you have that one planet that was actually a giant observation platform built not-even-the-Vorlons-know-when. Those are part of the big picture but may or may not have been "fully developed".
But then you have all the random aliens and random alien tech. Every now and then an artifact would be found from a dead race. Most of these are seen in only one ep, and never mentioned again. Why? Because they're not part of the big picture.
My character Tsin'xing
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Hell, the deltas are on the communicators, the phasers, the tricorder, even the friggin seats on the shuttle. They went way overboard putting them on everything. Probably even on the toilet seat too.
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The same article you just quoted lists replicator limitations just a few sentences later. In addition I refer to the technical manuals when canon leaves a gap in such information and both the TNG and VGR TMs cover the topic.
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I never said they were, but given the TMs were meant to advise the actual script writers on how things work I take it as the second best thing personally. And in those, the difference is actually explained as I outlined earlier. So yes, one can dismiss that but then just making up head canon because there were no explanations given is just as questionable. Also, the limitations of replicators is actually canon and brought up in a number of episodes.
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Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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You already have one in the other thread
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Aww. I wanna nuver one. Bad Targ!
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My character Tsin'xing
Vulcan's moon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Oh, and you'd better make sure you store all those elements really securely - sodium reacts explosively in the presence of oxygen and hydrogen, remember. And chlorine, in its gaseous state, is a lethal poison to most carbon-based life forms.
If, on the other hand, the replicator can synthesize the elements that go into food, there's no sane reason it can't replicate deuterium.
Transporters capable of accidentally duplicating beings which cannot be intentionally duplicated. With Pulaski and Angry Kirk/Maudlin Kirk as examples, someone should figure out how to beam back that dead crewman alive and well. Further, transporters routinely identify and purge harmful life forms and disable weapons while still in the 'buffer', so why not simply repair that nasty disruptor burn before you materialize your Redshirt?
Warp drives which can be tweaked by Kelvins to achieve Warp 13, but later we discover nothing can exceed Warp 10 because at that speed you are instantaneously everywhere.
And instead of perfecting Warp 10 we get slipstream which apparently is faster than Warp 9.98 but not as fast as Warp 10.
Romulans lacking warp drive, instead relying on simple Impulse power, which was a key plot element of one episode, yet by the time of Enterprise, prior to the assertion by one of Starfleet's finest engineers that they indeed do not use Warp, they operate high speed warp capable remote control drones telepathically.
Advanced replicator technology which can create diamonds, rubies, emeralds, and gold, but not latinum. (If you can manipulate subatomic particles to create crystaline lattices metals, and hydrocarbon chains, what is it about latinum which renders it unreplicatable?)
The list is getting long, and I'm not even warmed up. All of these examples are from film and broadcast Trek, not books, comics, or fanflicks. And yes, I understand the concept of Retcon, so please don't refute my thesis on that basis.
Star Trek is riddled with inconsistencies, but there is a reason: Star Trek is on the Speculative side of the Science Fiction continuum, and writers use whatever they think works in their story to make the point of the story.
There is no canon. Not even a canonball. Star Trek is whatever the writers of the moment decide it is, and that is how it's always been since the United Earth Federation morphed into The United Federation Of Planets in TOS Season 1.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
You're getting canon confused with continuity. Canon is the official version of what happened even if it's internally contradictory (look no further than the set of texts that spawned the word canon in the first place after the First Council of Nicaea). Continuity implies internal consistency and references.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Whatever the reasons are is not important. Important is that it's not possible to do that and that is true for the universe we are looking at. Things don't have to be logical, they are written pieces of fiction. As I said, the writer's guide/TM explains it indeed via storage space and lower "transporter resolution" in a replicator. A laser in a CD drive and one to cut things are different as well, but they are both lasers. A food replicator is different from a industrial replicator is different from a transporter.
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