Least George did not **** over people to get his wealth. Politicians, bankers and businessmen have.
George Carlin was no saint, I assure you.
It's quite clear you have an extreme negative bias toward anyone who has more wealth than you. I'm curious, how do you characterize people like Bill and Melinda Gates, Warren Buffett and Mark Zuckeberg who have all pledged to give away more than half their wealth? Or are they all ******** on people too?
That's not quite right. Complex machinery cannot be replicated. The existence of replicators in Star Trek doesn't mean anything can magically be created out of thin air. Not only do the replicators need access to the basic resources to create things (although that might be negligible in terms of food and everyday commodities) but they also cannot create "computer chips". The show made it clear that complex machinery will be faulty if replicated. So the machines themselves are still assembled traditionally. The difference is it isn't done to profit, the people building replicators do so because they like to help others getting replicators (probably helping to maintaining the standard of life for everyone). The economy portrayed assumes that society (not including all individuals of course) doesn't promote and centre around accumulating personal wealth as present day's is.
Exactly. This is why the important part is human nature needing to change. I would like to believe that if we had free energy for all and replication technology, human nature would change. I mean, if we could replicate billions of dollars, it's pointless because so can anyone else, so material wealth is meaningless.
Wasn't it in "Catspaw" (TOS) that they turned something into a plate of precious gemstones and Kirk remarked that they could easily synthesize all of them and they were now considered worthless?
But that's still not true, dude. You're still thinking that the person needs to buy the replicator. But the replicator itself is replicatable It has no intrinsic value It only needs powering. What if it can be powered remotely, such as by broadcast-power, rather than by powercells? As soon as it's created, it becomes operational, and whatever the person has to hand, even their socks, becomes raw material for a meal (maybe only a sandwich, in the case of a pair of socks, but still something to eat ) (...)
That's not quite right. Complex machinery cannot be replicated. The existence of replicators in Star Trek doesn't mean anything can magically be created out of thin air. Not only do the replicators need access to the basic resources to create things (although that might be negligible in terms of food and everyday commodities) but they also cannot create "computer chips". The show made it clear that complex machinery will be faulty if replicated. So the machines themselves are still assembled traditionally. The difference is it isn't done to profit, the people building replicators do so because they like to help others getting replicators (probably helping to maintaining the standard of life for everyone). The economy portrayed assumes that society (not including all individuals of course) doesn't promote and centre around accumulating personal wealth as present day's is.
But that's still not true, dude. You're still thinking that the person needs to buy the replicator. But the replicator itself is replicatable It has no intrinsic value It only needs powering. What if it can be powered remotely, such as by broadcast-power, rather than by powercells? As soon as it's created, it becomes operational, and whatever the person has to hand, even their socks, becomes raw material for a meal (maybe only a sandwich, in the case of a pair of socks, but still something to eat ) (...)
That's not quite right. Complex machinery cannot be replicated. The existence of replicators in Star Trek doesn't mean anything can magically be created out of thin air. Not only do the replicators need access to the basic resources to create things (although that might be negligible in terms of food and everyday commodities) but they also cannot create "computer chips". The show made it clear that complex machinery will be faulty if replicated. So the machines themselves are still assembled traditionally. The difference is it isn't done to profit, the people building replicators do so because they like to help others getting replicators (probably helping to maintaining the standard of life for everyone). The economy portrayed assumes that society (not including all individuals of course) doesn't promote and centre around accumulating personal wealth as present day's is.
Really? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember immediately operational trocorders being replicated on VOY
I could accept that the isolinear chips may need to have the software installed, but I don't see why a gadget itself, can't be replicated (or at the very least, the components needed to assemble it, can be replicated, and then hand-assembled
And absolutely, it doesn't center around personal wealth, because (certainly from TNG onward, but I wouldn't be surprized if Gene hadn't considered replicators for TOS, but thought they were 'too out there' for audience to relate to (afterall, that was why they had hand-held communicators, not implanted ones) almost any commodity can be created for free. Don't like the sweater you're wearing anymore? Recycle it into a different style
Once we get clean, easy energy and replicators, things will shift, and I'd bet the current financial model will be wiped out within a generation, if not sooner
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
once we get replicators and clean energy, there will simply be no need for currency as we know it.
Will we? Even in Star Trek it's not free, it's just so inexpensive compared to other things that "basic needs" are a tiny expense. the modern-day precursors to replicators are extremely expensive as-is. It's hard to say just what would be required to make it cheap enough to be a public service.
I don't understand the question 'Will we?' what? :confused
You're looking at the subject from a 21st Century perspective. (even Picard's comment to Lily should be taken either as a writer's mistake, or, him trying to simplify 24th Century economics to something she would be able relate to)
If most commodities become replicatable, they become valueless, because their rarity ceases to be a measure of value.
If all someone needs is raw matter, a replicator, and energy, then they could quite literally turn **** to gold, but to them, said gold would be as worthless as what went into the replicator Now the energy used to power the replicator, yes, more of a commodity, but given the easy creation of clean, easy energy, still not something rare enough, to hold large economic value.
Hence my observation, that once we have replicators and easy energy, we won't need currency. The entire mindset will change, due to that lack of need. Remember how Jake tried to defend the Federation's economics to Nog? And that Nog quite rightly pointed out, that if it meant that Jake didn't need money, it meant he definitely didn't need Nog's money But that lack of need which Jake mentioned, that was the key point: When the technology becomes that widespread, it would be impossible to keep class-based, or with artificial scarcity attached. When people don't have to work for a living, they will work to follow their passions: Art, entertainment, food, music, etc, because their will be no need for them to do otherwise
Yep....as in living....not merely surviving.
Igg-Zactly
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Exactly. This is why the important part is human nature needing to change. I would like to believe that if we had free energy for all and replication technology, human nature would change. I mean, if we could replicate billions of dollars, it's pointless because so can anyone else, so material wealth is meaningless.
Even then it'd simply be the concept of wealth that would change, not that people would abandon that concept.
Really? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember immediately operational tricorders being replicated on VOY
I could accept that the isolinear chips may need to have the software installed, but I don't see why a gadget itself, can't be replicated (or at the very least, the components needed to assemble it, can be replicated, and then hand-assembled
Hmm now that I think about it more, I think the issue is that a replicator has a limit to the amount of fine detail it can put into what it makes. Which would explain why replicated meat has the wrong texture.
[Actually in that scenario the SOURCE of those goods would have value, IE energy and replicator technology.
But that's still not true, dude. You're still thinking that the person needs to buy the replicator. But the replicator itself is replicatable It has no intrinsic value It only needs powering. What if it can be powered remotely, such as by broadcast-power, rather than by powercells? As soon as it's created, it becomes operational, and whatever the person has to hand, even their socks, becomes raw material for a meal (maybe only a sandwich, in the case of a pair of socks, but still something to eat )
Oh really? how much power do you think it takes to replicate a replicator?
Doesn't matter...
Replicators are extremely complex and even small errors in their circuitry can have disastrous consequences.
Replication doesn't have small errors (or at least, doesn't have to Replicators are an off-shoot of transporter technology. Transporters work (usually )with such a small margin of error, it's negligible. Someone beaming down with a bit of a wedgie, for example, doesn't wind up with their space-knickers spliced into their a55 So by the extension of the same principle, there's no reason for a replicated item to be less than 'atomically correct' to the original/template
Just ask the Kazon if you don't believe me.
Ask Admiral Nelson to rewire a wall socket without explaining it to him. I'd be expecting curses of 'Gadzooks!!!' and a somewhat shocked admiral
AND you can't simply have the replicator scan itself to make the program.
I say I can, because I've got the Starfleet9000 omnispectralimaging scanner array built into mine!
And really, broadcast power? Haha.... It's not used IRL because it's so wasteful that it's wastefulness makes it dangerous.
Wireless phone charging, dude, been here a while now Heck, I have a friend with a xes toy which charges wirelessly (she even did a review of it on das YouTube) In 400 years time, I suspect those bugs you mention will be worked out, and it'll be not just viable, but completely common place. I heard Tesla had a method for broadcasting energy, but that might've just been an online rumor...
Except that, that's not true in-universe, now is it? energy usage was always shown to be budgeted, and while one person getting a meal is cheap and easy, it adds up quickly.
Aboard Voyager, maybe, but they soon got sick of that idea I doubt anything on 25th Century Earth has to worry about putting a coin in the meter to get their power
Or just anything that isn't publically available. you seem to have this weird idea that everyone who makes replicator programs would be happy to give them to everyone.
You seem to have the weird idea that they wouldn't Again, different economic structure. People don't 'work' be it designing clothing templates or commanding starships, because they get paid in SpaceDollar, they do it, because it's what they enjoy doing, and because society rewards them by meeting their needs. It's 'socialism'/'communism' without the whole 'taking from all, to redistribute some' aspects In that regard, what Picard said was true. They don't work to acquire wealth, they do it to better themselves (because it's what they like doing)
It was often said in TNG and DS9 that replicated food was of inferior quality to the real thing. Makes you wonder why eh?
Personal preferences/personal snobbery. I don't like blancmange, for example, and went to college with someone who didn't like chocolate.
And whoever controls the replicators controls the Federation. Most people in the Federation couldn't build one even with a set of schematics. Why? they're just that complex.
We can't keep bootleg films and state secrets off the internet now, dude, there's no way that replicators and their schematics won't eventually become publicly available and open-source. All it would take, is one grey-market release, and Bam, the genie's out of the bottle
Really? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember immediately operational tricorders being replicated on VOY
I could accept that the isolinear chips may need to have the software installed, but I don't see why a gadget itself, can't be replicated (or at the very least, the components needed to assemble it, can be replicated, and then hand-assembled
Hmm now that I think about it more, I think the issue is that a replicator has a limit to the amount of fine detail it can put into what it makes. Which would explain why replicated meat has the wrong texture.
Yes, it's probably like the difference between eating a Quorn burger, and a burger made from beef, or maybe even more subtle, like the difference between drinking generic cola, and Pepsi
*Extra text to feed the Edit Monster*
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Energy always runs downhill, and in the end becomes heat. This is not my opinion, it's the law.
No matter its origin, using the power you would need to provide a billion people with anything they want would turn any world into Venus. The only way to prevent this runaway overheating would be to limit power consumption to levels the world can sustain, which would mean a significant portion of our current population would have to leave the planet. Of course, the less power you consume, the more people who can stay. Which means more manual labor is required, energy consumption limited by some kind of rationing system, and growing food instead of replicating it.
However, this too is an issue solved by Trek, and it is taken as a major element of the setting.
But Sisko mentioned using up his transporter rations, so someone is doing the accounting, and that makes those rations into money.
I think 'everygthing they need' is not a personal choice but an allottment, (which is money too,) of goods and services, with people in positions of greater responsibility earning a larger allottment of living space, dining choices, travel, and other 'wants' which would encourage younger people to strive to rise above maintenance wages and a sleep pod. (But it's always there if they can't compete for better.)
Energy always runs downhill, and in the end becomes heat. This is not my opinion, it's the law.
No matter its origin, using the power you would need to provide a billion people with anything they want would turn any world into Venus. The only way to prevent this runaway overheating would be to limit power consumption to levels the world can sustain, which would mean a significant portion of our current population would have to leave the planet. Of course, the less power you consume, the more people who can stay. Which means more manual labor is required, energy consumption limited by some kind of rationing system, and growing food instead of replicating it.
However, this too is an issue solved by Trek, and it is taken as a major element of the setting.
But Sisko mentioned using up his transporter rations, so someone is doing the accounting, and that makes those rations into money.
I think 'everygthing they need' is not a personal choice but an allottment, (which is money too,) of goods and services, with people in positions of greater responsibility earning a larger allottment of living space, dining choices, travel, and other 'wants' which would encourage younger people to strive to rise above maintenance wages and a sleep pod. (But it's always there if they can't compete for better.)
I can see the point you're making, but, I would hazard a guess, that the allotment which a 25th Century Earth citizen, would still appear to be 'all they want' by 21st Century standards, especially in matters like 'things available'. For example, rather than polyester-blend government-issue bed sheets, there's no reason why someone couldn't replicate what we would consider 'luxurious' Egyptian cotton. There would be more availability and freedom of choice, because 'the difference' wouldn't matter to the replicator, because it's all just X amount of raw matter and energy in, Product Of Choice, out
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Long-range broadcast power isn't used because in atmosphere the available energy falls off too rapidly (so far as I am aware, no experiments have been conducted in vacuum). It's nothing to do with any supposed hazard, it's just dramatically inefficient. (Short-range power broadcasting, however, is both usable and in use. It's part of how RFID chips work, for instance.)
As for Sisko's "transporter ration", I believe that was a restriction put on Academy cadets in particular. Otherwise, how are you going to make sure they stay on campus for proper Starfleet indoctrination? (That's not even tongue-in-cheek - it's hard to train most civilians to be soldiers, even the halfhearted soldiers of Starfleet.)
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
It's nothing to do with any supposed hazard, it's just dramatically inefficient.
tell that to the power station tesla blew up when he tried
Wardenclyffe Tower did not "blow up when it was tried"; instead, Tesla was unable to attract any funding (why would anyone sink the money into a project for which one could not charge the users?). The tower was demolished and sold for scrap in 1917 to satisfy some of Nikola's debts.
In earlier experiments in Colorado, Tesla did manage to overload the electrical grid of Colorado Springs, but that was because the generators weren't up to the task of supplying the power he demanded, not because of any inherent danger in broadcast power.
Star Trek has always been really inconsistent on what replicators can and can't do. The writers tend to base it on the needs of the current script.
Having access to unlimited energy and material resources still doesn't solve the issue of things like land ownership. Say for example the Picard family vineyard. What happens to that when Picard dies? He is the last of the Picard family and he has no kids of his own. Does the government seize the land and then give it away? How would that even be decided aside from nepotism? Without money to act as a tool for trade it will just come down to who is friends with the bureaucracy and who yells the loudest.
For that matter why does the Earth government tolerate the existence of such an inefficient use of the limited resource of land. By the 24th century there are surely much more efficient ways to grow grapes that don't require such a large use of land. That land could better serve the public in some other function. What prevents the government from just up and seizing it, after all by this time farming is nothing more than a hobby. What establishes land ownership and usage? What rights do the citizens have to it once they are using it?
Star Trek has always been really inconsistent on what replicators can and can't do. The writers tend to base it on the needs of the current script.
Having access to unlimited energy and material resources still doesn't solve the issue of things like land ownership. Say for example the Picard family vineyard. What happens to that when Picard dies? He is the last of the Picard family and he has no kids of his own. Does the government seize the land and then give it away? How would that even be decided aside from nepotism? Without money to act as a tool for trade it will just come down to who is friends with the bureaucracy and who yells the loudest.
For that matter why does the Earth government tolerate the existence of such an inefficient use of the limited resource of land. By the 24th century there are surely much more efficient ways to grow grapes that don't require such a large use of land. That land could better serve the public in some other function. What prevents the government from just up and seizing it, after all by this time farming is nothing more than a hobby. What establishes land ownership and usage? What rights do the citizens have to it once they are using it?
Doesn't land which is now privately owned, get turned over to the state when the owner dies with no heirs to inherit it? I'd suspect that in the instance of the Picard vineyard, it's probably a combination of it being private property, and providing a culturally significant artisanal product. After Picard's death, however, it might be absorbed as a state resource and indeed redistributed/re-used as per the greatest need
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Why should "efficiency" be the sole dictator of use? Grape-growing and winemaking are art forms of a sort, a very slow form that can take years to show results. The Picard family is engaged in a multigenerational work of art, one whose success is strongly dependent on the observer's particular taste (which is, arguably, the only way in which art can be judged - somebody thought Jackson Pollock's paint splatters were of value, after all, and it sure wasn't me).
However, there's no sign that Chateau Picard charges for their wine in any way; for all we can tell, there's a warehouse somewhere, and any time someone wants a bottle they can just beam over and pick one up.
For that matter, there's no clear indicator that replicated wine is in any way inferior to the bottled sort, but there's going to be a subset of people who think it is. There are people with strong feelings about vinyl as opposed to CD or digital files, even though from a purely objective viewpoint digital files can reproduce sound with greater fidelity than analog recordings. To some, they just don't feel right. And people like that in the 24th century will want the original bottle of wine, with its highly variable qualities, rather than the always-identical replicator pattern (which they will swear doesn't taste quite right...).
Why should "efficiency" be the sole dictator of use? Grape-growing and winemaking are art forms of a sort, a very slow form that can take years to show results. The Picard family is engaged in a multigenerational work of art, one whose success is strongly dependent on the observer's particular taste (which is, arguably, the only way in which art can be judged - somebody thought Jackson Pollock's paint splatters were of value, after all, and it sure wasn't me).
However, there's no sign that Chateau Picard charges for their wine in any way; for all we can tell, there's a warehouse somewhere, and any time someone wants a bottle they can just beam over and pick one up.
For that matter, there's no clear indicator that replicated wine is in any way inferior to the bottled sort, but there's going to be a subset of people who think it is. There are people with strong feelings about vinyl as opposed to CD or digital files, even though from a purely objective viewpoint digital files can reproduce sound with greater fidelity than analog recordings. To some, they just don't feel right. And people like that in the 24th century will want the original bottle of wine, with its highly variable qualities, rather than the always-identical replicator pattern (which they will swear doesn't taste quite right...).
In point of fact the science book Life Signs: The Biology of Star Trek proposed that replicated food doesn't taste right because every helping is identical to the previous one.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Why should "efficiency" be the sole dictator of use? Grape-growing and winemaking are art forms of a sort, a very slow form that can take years to show results. The Picard family is engaged in a multigenerational work of art, one whose success is strongly dependent on the observer's particular taste (which is, arguably, the only way in which art can be judged - somebody thought Jackson Pollock's paint splatters were of value, after all, and it sure wasn't me).
This was kind of my point. The lack of any industrial value leaves only entertainment value, which in and of itself is going to be quite limited in scope due to the limits of wine production. Since so few people will ever actually indulge in Chateau Picard, why should such a large amount of the worlds limited land be used for what is essentially one families vanity project.
Somebody above used a quote from The Incredibles, about how a world full of special people ultimately means nobody is special. That is what a post scarcity world does to the arts. With the population no longer engaged in industry the art world would be so flooded with content that nobodies work would stand out anymore. This could explain why nobody in TNG expresses interest in 24th century human art, it has become so diluted by quantity that the quality works remain largely unknown.
Of course all this economic talk is oddly counterpointed by the fact that the Federation's colonies seem to struggle to get by. Most seem to lack self sufficiency, which is extremely weird in a world with replicators. At times (particularly in DS9) it seems like the Federation is a technocracy, hording technology for an influential few worlds while lording over the comparatively primitive colonies.
Alas this is the price paid for making things up as you go. Thinking about this almost makes me wish for a proper reboot... one that is done for the purpose of tidying up the messy continuity snarls rather than trying to change the tone of the series.
Your thinking is mired in a scarcity model, Rezeon. In a world where planet-hopping is done casually, space habitats are common, the Moon is so heavily colonized that you can see the outlines of cities on its surface from ESD, and several star systems are within commuting distance of Earth, what's all this nonsense about "limited space" on Earth herself?
In Niven's Future History, Earth is still crowded because it's still a scarcity society - starship hulls must be purchased or built, and the only interstellar drive travels at a rate of three days per light-year (so Wunderland, around Alpha Centauri, would be about thirteen days away, plus the time needed to get far enough from the Sun for the drive to function, and to get from the equivalent point in Alpha Cent system to Wunderland). Travel is limited by money, and by available space. In Star Trek, however, ships can go at high warp from Sol to Alpha Cent in hours, and space travel appears to be limited primarily by traffic control, so there's no need for Niven's eighteen billion. (And even on Niven's Earth, Louis Wu in the novel Ringworld lived on a substantial estate, somewhere in England from the description of the lawn.)
Really? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember immediately operational trocorders being replicated on VOY
(...)
My memory might fail me as I couldn't verify it via google-fu, but I am fairly certain that Data states that replicated "computer chips" will be faulty and/or have a shortened lifespan. But I may be wrong as I can't put my hoof on it right now
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
It's nothing to do with any supposed hazard, it's just dramatically inefficient.
tell that to the power station tesla blew up when he tried
Wardenclyffe Tower did not "blow up when it was tried"; instead, Tesla was unable to attract any funding (why would anyone sink the money into a project for which one could not charge the users?). The tower was demolished and sold for scrap in 1917 to satisfy some of Nikola's debts.
In earlier experiments in Colorado, Tesla did manage to overload the electrical grid of Colorado Springs, but that was because the generators weren't up to the task of supplying the power he demanded, not because of any inherent danger in broadcast power.
Tesla's broadcast power experiment used microwaves, as do modern wireless rechargers. Wireless rechargers use a much lower amount of power. Why? The inverse square law. What? You thought atmospheric absorption was the primary limitation of range? Nope, that's a secondary consideration. Being near the transmitter is reasonably efficient, but being far away you get very little. Wireless rechargers only have an effective range of a few inches. Tesla's idea needed a range of AT LEAST 1/4 mile to be practical at all, preferably several miles. The power level near the transmitter in cases like that is absurdly high. So high that in his tests it killed all the birds that flew near it. Also, there's the issue of how much of the power being broadcast doesn't get used for anything and gets absorbed by the ground, and plants, and buildings.
I heard about the broadcast power thing as a kid. I went ooh that sounds cool! Then started reading more about it.... The concept sounds neat, but there's just no way to make it practical. Well... there is but ONE that I've come up with. Use it inside a dome. The dome would act as a receiver and channel the received power back into the transmitter. That way you can recycle at least some of the power that doesn't get used.
It still doesn't solve the line-of sight problem. What's that? Well visualize the broadcast power transmitter as a light bulb. Anything that uses the power being broadcast creates a shadow. Any receiver in the shadow functions less efficiently and may not collect enough power for the attached device to function. Admittedly the shadow may only be 10% less, or it might be 60%... it depends on the receiver. AND multiple shadows are cumulative. So if you have 6 devices in a row and each needs the broadcast to be at 50% while creating a 10% shadow, the last one would just barely get enough energy to function. If the shadow is 12% though... not even close. Oh I know what you're thinking, "just move the receiver out of the shadow". How many shadows do you think would exist in a city? Well, how many receivers are there? 100 per building? Maybe several hundred in high usage areas? A densely packed office or apartment building would likely block out the power to everything behind it.
Of course all this economic talk is oddly counterpointed by the fact that the Federation's colonies seem to struggle to get by. Most seem to lack self sufficiency, which is extremely weird in a world with replicators. At times (particularly in DS9) it seems like the Federation is a technocracy, hording technology for an influential few worlds while lording over the comparatively primitive colonies.
Yeah people keep ignoring that every time I mention it. The place Tasha Yar came from sounded like a horrible place to live. Then in TOS you have the example of Kodos the executioner. He was planetary governor of a Federation colony world and became infamous for ordering the execution of half the colony chosen by random lot. Why? Because of a catastrophic food shortage. That was the most people they had food to feed before the next grain shipment was scheduled to arrive.
So.... while Earth may be a utopian paradise by our standards.... the Federation as a whole is not.
That doesn't make any sense, though. All a replicator is is a transporter with data storage for patterns. Theoretically, if it can be transported it can be replicated. The only real limitation is the amount of data storage you have for the patterns.
(...)
Replicators are based on transporter technology, they dissemble raw material and reassemble it, that's true. But what is definitely canon is that complex structures like certain organic connections cannot be replicated, also living things cannot be replicated (by Starfleet replicators at least). Also Deuterium, Latinum and Antimatter cannot be replicated but all of these can be transported. In order to replicate spare organs for surgery one needs a specialized form of replicator, although I grant that VOY ignores most of the rules established in TNG for dramatic purposes, but even VOY acknowledged something too complex in Talaxian lungs to replicate them.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
In fact, Mark, I'd mentioned the severe range limitations earlier in the discussion. What I'd addressed in the post you quoted was the silly claim that broadcast power was "too dangerous" because Tesla "blew up his tower when it was first tested."
For broadcast power to be practical over more than a very short range, you'd need Treknobabble of one sort or another.
I was rather under the impression that latinum was not duplicated because of treaties with the Ferengi leading to DRM on replicators that prevented latinum replication. (After all, it wouldn't have seemed like that big a deal to the Federation diplomats negotiating the treaty...)
Claiming that deuterium is non-replicatable is silly - deuterium is a stable isotope of hydrogen. If you couldn't replicate that, you couldn't make food. As for antimatter, the only reason you wouldn't make that in a replicator is because if it touched the surface of the replicator for even a moment, you wouldn't have any more antimatter. Or replicator. Or you.
That doesn't make any sense, though. All a replicator is is a transporter with data storage for patterns. Theoretically, if it can be transported it can be replicated. The only real limitation is the amount of data storage you have for the patterns.
Replication works as follows:
Transporter beam picks up matter
Rather than using the pattern in the transporter buffer, a pattern from computer data storage is loaded
Transporter applies pattern to the matter in the beam
Item is materialized by the transporter beam
NOPE
Transporter patterns are not readable data, while replicator patterns are. Also.... a transporter pattern buffer stores the energy the person was converted to and not just the data. Example: in the TNG ep with Scotty, LaForge had no idea WHAT was being stored in the Jenolan's transporter.
I was rather under the impression that latinum was not duplicated because of treaties with the Ferengi leading to DRM on replicators that prevented latinum replication. (After all, it wouldn't have seemed like that big a deal to the Federation diplomats negotiating the treaty...)
Claiming that deuterium is non-replicatable is silly - deuterium is a stable isotope of hydrogen. If you couldn't replicate that, you couldn't make food. As for antimatter, the only reason you wouldn't make that in a replicator is because if it touched the surface of the replicator for even a moment, you wouldn't have any more antimatter. Or replicator. Or you.
I'm pretty sure that Latinum and Deuterium were not replicated because the replicators used by the Federation don't have the ability to rearrange matter on the subatomic level and well, that's what makes Deuterium different from regular Hydrogen.
There's actually a LOT of things that can't be replicated. Things being over an unspecified level of complexity has been mentioned several times.
If they couldn't remake matter on a subatomic level a replicator would be completely impractical, Mark: it's the subatomic level that defines what the atom IS. If what you suggest is true, a ship would have to be carrying bulk matter of any element they could possibly need, rather than just borrowing protons, neutrons, and electrons from the ship's fusion fuel supply.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Why should "efficiency" be the sole dictator of use? Grape-growing and winemaking are art forms of a sort, a very slow form that can take years to show results. The Picard family is engaged in a multigenerational work of art, one whose success is strongly dependent on the observer's particular taste (which is, arguably, the only way in which art can be judged - somebody thought Jackson Pollock's paint splatters were of value, after all, and it sure wasn't me).
This was kind of my point. The lack of any industrial value leaves only entertainment value, which in and of itself is going to be quite limited in scope due to the limits of wine production. Since so few people will ever actually indulge in Chateau Picard, why should such a large amount of the worlds limited land be used for what is essentially one families vanity project.
Somebody above used a quote from The Incredibles, about how a world full of special people ultimately means nobody is special. That is what a post scarcity world does to the arts. With the population no longer engaged in industry the art world would be so flooded with content that nobodies work would stand out anymore. This could explain why nobody in TNG expresses interest in 24th century human art, it has become so diluted by quantity that the quality works remain largely unknown.
Of course all this economic talk is oddly counterpointed by the fact that the Federation's colonies seem to struggle to get by. Most seem to lack self sufficiency, which is extremely weird in a world with replicators. At times (particularly in DS9) it seems like the Federation is a technocracy, hording technology for an influential few worlds while lording over the comparatively primitive colonies.
Alas this is the price paid for making things up as you go. Thinking about this almost makes me wish for a proper reboot... one that is done for the purpose of tidying up the messy continuity snarls rather than trying to change the tone of the series.
I completely disagree, because even in a market flooded with content, quality content would still rise to the top and attract a high amount of followers. Mediocre stuff might occasionally be selected for replication, and the outright rubbish, would remain un-selected. I'd suspect that after a while of someone producing content which got no appreciation (because they weren't any good at it) they would work it out (or someone would tell them) and they'd refocus their skills. My quote was to do with the current financial elite. Once what makes them Special, is available to everyone, it'll be an even playing field, with people needing to use genuine talents to be productive
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Wasn't it in "Catspaw" (TOS) that they turned something into a plate of precious gemstones and Kirk remarked that they could easily synthesize all of them and they were now considered worthless?
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I could accept that the isolinear chips may need to have the software installed, but I don't see why a gadget itself, can't be replicated (or at the very least, the components needed to assemble it, can be replicated, and then hand-assembled
And absolutely, it doesn't center around personal wealth, because (certainly from TNG onward, but I wouldn't be surprized if Gene hadn't considered replicators for TOS, but thought they were 'too out there' for audience to relate to (afterall, that was why they had hand-held communicators, not implanted ones) almost any commodity can be created for free. Don't like the sweater you're wearing anymore? Recycle it into a different style
Once we get clean, easy energy and replicators, things will shift, and I'd bet the current financial model will be wiped out within a generation, if not sooner
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My character Tsin'xing
Replication doesn't have small errors (or at least, doesn't have to Replicators are an off-shoot of transporter technology. Transporters work (usually
Ask Admiral Nelson to rewire a wall socket without explaining it to him. I'd be expecting curses of 'Gadzooks!!!' and a somewhat shocked admiral
I say I can, because I've got the Starfleet9000 omnispectralimaging scanner array built into mine!
Wireless phone charging, dude, been here a while now
Aboard Voyager, maybe, but they soon got sick of that idea
You seem to have the weird idea that they wouldn't
Personal preferences/personal snobbery. I don't like blancmange, for example, and went to college with someone who didn't like chocolate.
We can't keep bootleg films and state secrets off the internet now, dude, there's no way that replicators and their schematics won't eventually become publicly available and open-source. All it would take, is one grey-market release, and Bam, the genie's out of the bottle
Yes, it's probably like the difference between eating a Quorn burger, and a burger made from beef, or maybe even more subtle, like the difference between drinking generic cola, and Pepsi
*Extra text to feed the Edit Monster*
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
No matter its origin, using the power you would need to provide a billion people with anything they want would turn any world into Venus. The only way to prevent this runaway overheating would be to limit power consumption to levels the world can sustain, which would mean a significant portion of our current population would have to leave the planet. Of course, the less power you consume, the more people who can stay. Which means more manual labor is required, energy consumption limited by some kind of rationing system, and growing food instead of replicating it.
However, this too is an issue solved by Trek, and it is taken as a major element of the setting.
But Sisko mentioned using up his transporter rations, so someone is doing the accounting, and that makes those rations into money.
I think 'everygthing they need' is not a personal choice but an allottment, (which is money too,) of goods and services, with people in positions of greater responsibility earning a larger allottment of living space, dining choices, travel, and other 'wants' which would encourage younger people to strive to rise above maintenance wages and a sleep pod. (But it's always there if they can't compete for better.)
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
As for Sisko's "transporter ration", I believe that was a restriction put on Academy cadets in particular. Otherwise, how are you going to make sure they stay on campus for proper Starfleet indoctrination? (That's not even tongue-in-cheek - it's hard to train most civilians to be soldiers, even the halfhearted soldiers of Starfleet.)
tell that to the power station tesla blew up when he tried
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In earlier experiments in Colorado, Tesla did manage to overload the electrical grid of Colorado Springs, but that was because the generators weren't up to the task of supplying the power he demanded, not because of any inherent danger in broadcast power.
Having access to unlimited energy and material resources still doesn't solve the issue of things like land ownership. Say for example the Picard family vineyard. What happens to that when Picard dies? He is the last of the Picard family and he has no kids of his own. Does the government seize the land and then give it away? How would that even be decided aside from nepotism? Without money to act as a tool for trade it will just come down to who is friends with the bureaucracy and who yells the loudest.
For that matter why does the Earth government tolerate the existence of such an inefficient use of the limited resource of land. By the 24th century there are surely much more efficient ways to grow grapes that don't require such a large use of land. That land could better serve the public in some other function. What prevents the government from just up and seizing it, after all by this time farming is nothing more than a hobby. What establishes land ownership and usage? What rights do the citizens have to it once they are using it?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
However, there's no sign that Chateau Picard charges for their wine in any way; for all we can tell, there's a warehouse somewhere, and any time someone wants a bottle they can just beam over and pick one up.
For that matter, there's no clear indicator that replicated wine is in any way inferior to the bottled sort, but there's going to be a subset of people who think it is. There are people with strong feelings about vinyl as opposed to CD or digital files, even though from a purely objective viewpoint digital files can reproduce sound with greater fidelity than analog recordings. To some, they just don't feel right. And people like that in the 24th century will want the original bottle of wine, with its highly variable qualities, rather than the always-identical replicator pattern (which they will swear doesn't taste quite right...).
In point of fact the science book Life Signs: The Biology of Star Trek proposed that replicated food doesn't taste right because every helping is identical to the previous one.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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This was kind of my point. The lack of any industrial value leaves only entertainment value, which in and of itself is going to be quite limited in scope due to the limits of wine production. Since so few people will ever actually indulge in Chateau Picard, why should such a large amount of the worlds limited land be used for what is essentially one families vanity project.
Somebody above used a quote from The Incredibles, about how a world full of special people ultimately means nobody is special. That is what a post scarcity world does to the arts. With the population no longer engaged in industry the art world would be so flooded with content that nobodies work would stand out anymore. This could explain why nobody in TNG expresses interest in 24th century human art, it has become so diluted by quantity that the quality works remain largely unknown.
Of course all this economic talk is oddly counterpointed by the fact that the Federation's colonies seem to struggle to get by. Most seem to lack self sufficiency, which is extremely weird in a world with replicators. At times (particularly in DS9) it seems like the Federation is a technocracy, hording technology for an influential few worlds while lording over the comparatively primitive colonies.
Alas this is the price paid for making things up as you go. Thinking about this almost makes me wish for a proper reboot... one that is done for the purpose of tidying up the messy continuity snarls rather than trying to change the tone of the series.
In Niven's Future History, Earth is still crowded because it's still a scarcity society - starship hulls must be purchased or built, and the only interstellar drive travels at a rate of three days per light-year (so Wunderland, around Alpha Centauri, would be about thirteen days away, plus the time needed to get far enough from the Sun for the drive to function, and to get from the equivalent point in Alpha Cent system to Wunderland). Travel is limited by money, and by available space. In Star Trek, however, ships can go at high warp from Sol to Alpha Cent in hours, and space travel appears to be limited primarily by traffic control, so there's no need for Niven's eighteen billion. (And even on Niven's Earth, Louis Wu in the novel Ringworld lived on a substantial estate, somewhere in England from the description of the lawn.)
My memory might fail me as I couldn't verify it via google-fu, but I am fairly certain that Data states that replicated "computer chips" will be faulty and/or have a shortened lifespan. But I may be wrong as I can't put my hoof on it right now
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therefore, replicators aren't transporters with data storage
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I heard about the broadcast power thing as a kid. I went ooh that sounds cool! Then started reading more about it.... The concept sounds neat, but there's just no way to make it practical.
It still doesn't solve the line-of sight problem. What's that? Well visualize the broadcast power transmitter as a light bulb. Anything that uses the power being broadcast creates a shadow. Any receiver in the shadow functions less efficiently and may not collect enough power for the attached device to function. Admittedly the shadow may only be 10% less, or it might be 60%... it depends on the receiver. AND multiple shadows are cumulative. So if you have 6 devices in a row and each needs the broadcast to be at 50% while creating a 10% shadow, the last one would just barely get enough energy to function. If the shadow is 12% though... not even close. Oh I know what you're thinking, "just move the receiver out of the shadow". How many shadows do you think would exist in a city? Well, how many receivers are there? 100 per building? Maybe several hundred in high usage areas? A densely packed office or apartment building would likely block out the power to everything behind it. Yeah people keep ignoring that every time I mention it. The place Tasha Yar came from sounded like a horrible place to live. Then in TOS you have the example of Kodos the executioner. He was planetary governor of a Federation colony world and became infamous for ordering the execution of half the colony chosen by random lot. Why? Because of a catastrophic food shortage. That was the most people they had food to feed before the next grain shipment was scheduled to arrive.
So.... while Earth may be a utopian paradise by our standards.... the Federation as a whole is not.
My character Tsin'xing
Replicators are based on transporter technology, they dissemble raw material and reassemble it, that's true. But what is definitely canon is that complex structures like certain organic connections cannot be replicated, also living things cannot be replicated (by Starfleet replicators at least). Also Deuterium, Latinum and Antimatter cannot be replicated but all of these can be transported. In order to replicate spare organs for surgery one needs a specialized form of replicator, although I grant that VOY ignores most of the rules established in TNG for dramatic purposes, but even VOY acknowledged something too complex in Talaxian lungs to replicate them.
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#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
For broadcast power to be practical over more than a very short range, you'd need Treknobabble of one sort or another.
I was rather under the impression that latinum was not duplicated because of treaties with the Ferengi leading to DRM on replicators that prevented latinum replication. (After all, it wouldn't have seemed like that big a deal to the Federation diplomats negotiating the treaty...)
Claiming that deuterium is non-replicatable is silly - deuterium is a stable isotope of hydrogen. If you couldn't replicate that, you couldn't make food. As for antimatter, the only reason you wouldn't make that in a replicator is because if it touched the surface of the replicator for even a moment, you wouldn't have any more antimatter. Or replicator. Or you.
Transporter patterns are not readable data, while replicator patterns are. Also.... a transporter pattern buffer stores the energy the person was converted to and not just the data. Example: in the TNG ep with Scotty, LaForge had no idea WHAT was being stored in the Jenolan's transporter.
My character Tsin'xing
There's actually a LOT of things that can't be replicated. Things being over an unspecified level of complexity has been mentioned several times.
My character Tsin'xing
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth