Please stop acting as if I claimed you said the comic is canon. That was never my point.
Then stop suggesting it, like you are about to do in 3, 2, 1...
CBS/Paramount also 'officially approved' countless other games and books, yet none of those are explanations of events in lieu of canon
See, there you go again. Do you actually understand what that term("in lieu of") means? It means "in place of", or "substituting for". I did *NOT* say that the comic takes the place of, or substitutes for canon. So responding to my post by repeatedly saying that that comic isn't canon, or doesn't take the place of canon, when I did *NOT* say those things, is strawmanning. Give it up already.
They are just one possible version of events. like any 'pet theory' out there.
Once again, there is a *fundamental* difference. The comic story was officially approved by the IP holder. Your little pet theory was not. So no, it's not "like any pet theory out there", it was actually approved by the IP holder. That doesn't make it canon, but that definitely gives it more credibility than random joe's fan theory.
I think my issue is that when I first watched WoK I was a child, so didn't understand the technicalities of the ettiquette, so to my mind, it seemed wierd to be calling a woman 'Mister'. Now, I just find it irritating, because it wasn't congruous to the writing of TOS or TMP... As I said upthread, there were several things which irritate me with WoK, that was just one of them
TOS assumed that pretty much all sapient life was human-like - made it easier to have aliens when all the actors are human and CGI isn't even in the prototype stage yet. (There were the Horta, but there was only one living representative of the species at the time, and they were also bi-gendered - the egg-tender was a female.)
However, long before TWoK came out, many writers had hypothesized species with more than two genders (or, in some cases, less than two). How would one address, say, the fifth gender of Sulamid? Or, borrowing from another mythos, a Motie, which goes back and forth between male and female while retaining continuity of consciousness? (One would assume that one of the legendary Starfleet doctors had pulled a magic cure for Motie reproductive patterns out of his TRIBBLE as usual, of course - something more viable than the Crazy Eddie Worm.) And what of those species who have two genders, but are sufficiently non-hominid that one has trouble telling one gender from the other (as with Gorn, where they apparently follow the Terrestrial pattern of females being slightly larger than males)? And of course they'd have the same problem - those redundant fat packets on a female Human's chest might not be as obvious to a reptilian or insectile life form.
So a standard method of address must be adopted. Senior officers are to be referred to as "sir" unless they express a specific objection, and junior officers are "mister", regardless of apparent gender. It's slightly more elegant, in my opinion, than James White's solution in the Sector General stories, where all beings not of one's own species are to be referred to as "it" in order to avoid giving offense (a Cinrusskin looks like a cross between a spider and a butterfly - can you tell which is male and which female?)
Absolutely... As I said, as a child I didn't know the protocol, so it seemed wierd. As an adult, while I can appreciate the protocol, my issue is purely one of consistency of writing (ie Kirk never previously called Uhura 'Mister', I don't recal him refering to Saavik in SFS or VH, and I don't remember him calling Valeris 'Mister' either) Equally, I don't recal Picard (or Sisko, or Archer, or Janeway) ever addressing a female officer as 'Mister'...
I agree, a standard term must be used, and from what I can think of, most times on Trek have involved rank... In WoK, it just seemed excessively used...
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
For one, singularities generated by red matter seem to have an extremely short lifespan, much less than a single day.
Because the first was specifically designed to swallow Hobus and then dissipate and the second was formed from the containment unit being shot. Those two examples are hardly a fair assessment of how it works.
Unless you're proposing that each Romulan ship holds huge stockpiles of red matter to periodically refresh the singularity, that already rules it out. (And given the fact that Romulan ships aren't exactly known for creating singularities of devastating scales upon being destroyed, I believe we can deny that proposition as well. STO may portray the singularity expanding out before imploding and subsequently exploding, but not at the scale witnessed after the destruction of the Jellyfish.)
No, I'm not. There's many explanations for that, the most obvious being the stability time can be controlled, the second is the possible ability to 'lock-down' the effects of a rupture in a similar way to the muted explosion of warp core breaches.
[/quote]
Furthermore, if Romulans had that kind of access to red matter, they would A: be capable of using it as a superweapon and B: not have to wait for the Vulcans to make up their minds and let Spock try to save Romulus - Nero could save the planet himself, as could any Romulan starship captain in the entire galaxy, so long as they got there in time.[/quote]
Oh come on. Going to warp in a system is mentioned to have the potential to make a star go supernova. You could warp a drone ship directly into the Earth. Mass transport warheads into the crust as Earth has no shields. Use those magic self replicating mines that can create matter out of their TRIBBLE.
Star Trek is full of technology never used to its full potential as it solely exists to advance the plot. But you want to randomly TRIBBLE all over the AR films rather than bother looking at the gaping flaws in other Trek offerings. Protomatter and the aforementioned self replicating mines immediately come to mind.
As for point 'B'. The Romulans didn't believe Spock remember, Nero and his crew where the only ones who did.
My interpretation would be that red matter was never mentioned until JJ verse (as far as I know) and that if the Romulan's had access to it prior to this, they could/would have been able to use it as a superweapon in order to gain advantage, and given the way Romulans typically act - they would have most likely used Red Matter to increase thier sphere of influence and/or use it to protect resources during the Borg invasion (in which it is hinted that they never attended wolf 359 due to thier own Borg activity) and the Dominion War.
That's just my interpretation though - I have been known to be wrong
Same as above. If ST operated on any logic there could never be any of the situations we see onscreen. All the Romulans would need to do to end the Earth Romulan war would be to warp their cloaked ships into Sol and wipe out Earth. They don't because that would be a stupid plot because there is no defence against that.
It's in the reboot movies so it makes it 1000% bad
Star Trek has never been rebooted.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
For one, singularities generated by red matter seem to have an extremely short lifespan, much less than a single day.
Because the first was specifically designed to swallow Hobus and then dissipate and the second was formed from the containment unit being shot. Those two examples are hardly a fair assessment of how it works.
Actually, there are three examples.
1. Spock picks up a small unit of red matter and drops it to swallow Hobus. This singularity seems to have disappeared within the hour.
2. Nero picks up a similarly small unit of red matter and drops it to swallow Vulcan. This singularity's lifespan seems similar, as it disappears immediately upon consuming the planet.
3. The Jellyfish is destroyed. This singularity would be a major navigational hazard, especially in such close proximity to Sol. It is never mentioned, so it must also have been destroyed within a negligible amount of time.
Unless you're proposing that each Romulan ship holds huge stockpiles of red matter to periodically refresh the singularity, that already rules it out. (And given the fact that Romulan ships aren't exactly known for creating singularities of devastating scales upon being destroyed, I believe we can deny that proposition as well. STO may portray the singularity expanding out before imploding and subsequently exploding, but not at the scale witnessed after the destruction of the Jellyfish.)
No, I'm not. There's many explanations for that, the most obvious being the stability time can be controlled, the second is the possible ability to 'lock-down' the effects of a rupture in a similar way to the muted explosion of warp core breaches.
The stability time can be controlled? By what, reading the script, like the ST09 singularities do? Try again.
Plus, again, holding that much red matter aboard Each. And. Every. One. of your ships moves Romulus from being caused by distrust into being caused by an incredibly large idiot ball.
Oh come on. Going to warp in a system is mentioned to have the potential to make a star go supernova.
If you're referring to the DS9 episode where a Changeling impersonating Bashir tries to ram a runabout into the Bajoran sun: There was something on that runabout, I can't remember what it was, but that was what was responsible.
You could warp a drone ship directly into the Earth. Mass transport warheads into the crust as Earth has no shields.
The only reasonable explanation for these is that they're left unused to prevent anyone with a bone to pick with a government from knowing that they can easily do it. It's full of holes, but it's better than the alternative.
Star Trek is full of technology never used to its full potential as it solely exists to advance the plot. But you want to randomly TRIBBLE all over the AR films rather than bother looking at the gaping flaws in other Trek offerings. Protomatter and the aforementioned self replicating mines immediately come to mind.
Self-replicating mines might have been working from an external stash of materials or cannibalizing leftover debris from a detonation - plus I think they were explicitly said to be as simple as possible. As for protomatter, you're going to have to be a bit more specific.
Finally, while there are gaping flaws in other Trek offerings (personally, I needn't look any farther than "Spock's Brain", "Threshold", or that one early Voyager episode which had the ship breach the event horizon of a black hole), at least they do it in a more or less consistent fashion that tells us that, as crappily executed as some parts of the episode in question may be, it's still Star Trek. The reboot doesn't even try to pretend it's Star Trek on any but the most superficial of levels.
As for point 'B'. The Romulans didn't believe Spock remember, Nero and his crew where the only ones who did.
I don't remember, I never read Countdown - and even if the Path to 2409 also contains that information, it's been a while since I read that too.
My interpretation would be that red matter was never mentioned until JJ verse (as far as I know) and that if the Romulan's had access to it prior to this, they could/would have been able to use it as a superweapon in order to gain advantage, and given the way Romulans typically act - they would have most likely used Red Matter to increase thier sphere of influence and/or use it to protect resources during the Borg invasion (in which it is hinted that they never attended wolf 359 due to thier own Borg activity) and the Dominion War.
That's just my interpretation though - I have been known to be wrong
Same as above. If ST operated on any logic there could never be any of the situations we see onscreen. All the Romulans would need to do to end the Earth Romulan war would be to warp their cloaked ships into Sol and wipe out Earth. They don't because that would be a stupid plot because there is no defence against that.
It is a highly accurate interpretation on all counts. As for warping into Earth, see above - they may be unwilling to perform such easy cataclysmic attacks because some rebel might decide it's a good idea to warp into Romulus, or Qo'noS, or Cardassia....
It's in the reboot movies so it makes it 1000% bad
Star Trek has never been rebooted.
[/quote]
This is either a blatant lie or a case of severe self-delusion. (Actually, the self-delusion is there either way, it's just whether it's "they'll buy it!" or "it's true!" that remains to be seen.)
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
While keeping the tradition of calling a superior officer 'Sir' or addressing them by rank? No, I'm happy to accept the 'Mister' instances as something Meyer wrote because he'd been reading Hornblower...
Dalalorn, I'd have thought you'd have been pleased to realize that Trek has never been rebooted. The '09 movie and its sequels are, both blatantly and as mentioned in dialog, explorations of an alternate timeline. The original timeline is still there, still untouched - it's the one this game is set in (you, ah, did realize that, didn't you? That this game includes both a destroyed Romulus and a not-destroyed Vulcan?).
A black hole the mass of the one we saw in the end of the '09 movie would not have been a "major navigational hazard" - it appeared to mass less than Earth, and thus would be less dangerous than any of a number of rogue planets out there. It also wouldn't have been as large as depicted - its diameter would have been measured in centimeters, not meters, and probably in single digits at that - but as this may have been an artifact of the fact that it was still in the process of forming, this actually makes it less of a break from reality than VOY's "crack in the event horizon", as if an event horizon were an actual physical object. (Theoretical astrophysics, particularly those surrounding black holes, are a bit of a hobby of mine...)
The biggest departure from reality in ST09 (aside from the usual Treknobabble) was the idea that a quantum black hole would swallow a planet quickly. It would have been smaller than the drop of red matter that was shown forming it; sweeping up a few particles at a time, it would have taken somewhere between centuries and millennia to do its work. (On the plus side, the constant infall of mass would have counterbalanced the Hawking radiation, keeping the hole from dissipating too soon...)
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
While keeping the tradition of calling a superior officer 'Sir' or addressing them by rank? No, I'm happy to accept the 'Mister' instances as something Meyer wrote because he'd been reading Hornblower...
If they get rid of one tradition it doesn't mean all traditions have to go too.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Rod Roddenberry joining really does nothing for me. I was much more excited to hear Nicholas Meyer's attachment.
Almost opposite reaction for me. I'm not a member of the "cult of holy twok" and I really hate that Meyer used ideas that were known to be scientifically impossible as major plot points and I fear with him on the new show that it will be more of the same.
Kurtzman, Red Matter. I"ll take Meyer anyday.
Lol, since Meyer is working FOR Kurtzman on this new series I'm not sure what difference you think it makes. Besides, it has been canon since TNG that Romulans use artificial singularities to power their ships, those have to be made somehow. Also, in what way is Red Matter worse than Protomatter?
Romulans use artificial singularities, yes. They do not, however, magically conjure them up from some red blob of goo.
How do they make them though? Do you know?
I suppose it's not Red Matter, because if they did, they could have done Spock's job themselves, but Red Matter is just not really better science than many of the other Trek science things. (Including stuff that Star Trek just took from other sources, like Positronic Brains...)
For one, singularities generated by red matter seem to have an extremely short lifespan, much less than a single day. Unless you're proposing that each Romulan ship holds huge stockpiles of red matter to periodically refresh the singularity, that already rules it out. (And given the fact that Romulan ships aren't exactly known for creating singularities of devastating scales upon being destroyed, I believe we can deny that proposition as well. STO may portray the singularity expanding out before imploding and subsequently exploding, but not at the scale witnessed after the destruction of the Jellyfish.)
If you want to get into the science of artificial singularities as energy source:
The most obvious (and maybe the only) way to generate energy from singularities would be to have low mass ones. The Hawking radiation of black holes is higher the ligher they get. Releasing Hawking radiation means also losing mass for the singularity, which increases the radiation further, until the point where there is no mass left and the singularity evaporates.
"Normal" black holes that are the result of collapsed stars, or those in the center of many galxies, are way too massive to generate signfiicant amount of hawking radiation, and they actually gain more energy from the background radiation than they lose from hawking radiation.
Black holes of that size will only start evaporating long after pretty much anything else in the universe has been sucked up by them, and the background radiation has cooled down too a level low enough.
So, those artificial singularities aboard the Romulan Warbirds probably have a very low mass to generate signfiicant amount of radiation. But that also means they'll evaporate. How do you stop that? You can feed them with new mass (or radiation).
Where does Red Matter into this? Nowhere. Maybe it's needed to create a singularity (however that would work, I am not claiming it's good science). That a low mass singularity - created with red matter or something "realistic" - would not live long isn't a big suprise.
EDIT: dang, jonsill basically already said everything improtant to say about black holes and singularities, and more than I did, too. (Like a low mass singularity wouldn't consume a planet very fast at all. Which is why those Large Hadron Collider scares about it accidentally creating black holes that kill us all were dumb.)
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Jon, you're arguing semantics. Unless (or should I say until?) the new series goes back into the prime universe, STO is the only 'official' continuation of the original - and we have yet to learn more about the series.
It's an attempted reboot at the very least, whatever they want to call it.
As for black holes, I suppose I did overstate its influence - but for something with subterrestrial mass, that one was exerting quite a significant gravitational pull if it could cancel out the Enterprise's engines. (While I can accept the warp drive being rendered inoperable by secondary effects, that still leaves the impulse engines, which are more than enough for most sublight propulsion.)
Rod Roddenberry joining really does nothing for me. I was much more excited to hear Nicholas Meyer's attachment.
Almost opposite reaction for me. I'm not a member of the "cult of holy twok" and I really hate that Meyer used ideas that were known to be scientifically impossible as major plot points and I fear with him on the new show that it will be more of the same.
Kurtzman, Red Matter. I"ll take Meyer anyday.
Lol, since Meyer is working FOR Kurtzman on this new series I'm not sure what difference you think it makes. Besides, it has been canon since TNG that Romulans use artificial singularities to power their ships, those have to be made somehow. Also, in what way is Red Matter worse than Protomatter?
Romulans use artificial singularities, yes. They do not, however, magically conjure them up from some red blob of goo.
How do they make them though? Do you know?
I suppose it's not Red Matter, because if they did, they could have done Spock's job themselves, but Red Matter is just not really better science than many of the other Trek science things. (Including stuff that Star Trek just took from other sources, like Positronic Brains...)
At least positronic brains had a little thought behind them. I'd much sooner believe "somebody has figured out how to make artificial neural nets using antimatter" than "somebody has developed a magical substance that suddenly becomes superheavy (the only reasonable explanation I know for their gravitational pull) and superdense when destabilized".
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
While keeping the tradition of calling a superior officer 'Sir' or addressing them by rank? No, I'm happy to accept the 'Mister' instances as something Meyer wrote because he'd been reading Hornblower...
If they get rid of one tradition it doesn't mean all traditions have to go too.
If you want to show that as a valid tradition, please cite any instances in TOS where any female officers (or officer candidates) were refered to as 'Mister'...
I don't care if Saavik was shown taking the Kobayashi Maru test or not, she wore an officer's uniform, with rank, and was addressed by rank. I'd question if she was even a cadet, as other cadets on board, the Enterprise were actually wearing cadet uniforms...
When Wesley attended the academy, despite having previously been granted a full-field commission to ensign, he was not referred to as 'Ensign Crusher', but wore the uniform of, and was treated as, any other cadet while at the academy..
Purely from the onscreen evidence, I'd suggest Saavik was actually a graduate who had simply returned to the academy to take that specific test as part of ongoing training -- or even re-training -- as part of career progression (such as when Deanna took the bridge officer's exam, but was able to do so aboard the Enterprise-D on the holodeck, by what amounted to 'correspondence course', which would not have been available in Saavik's day...
Marcus, you wouldn't have seen any female officers in TOS referred to as "mister" because it was written in the 1960s. Am I the only one here old enough to remember casual sexism being the norm? (If so, that's really kind of encouraging, in the same sense as I was encouraged by the characters in the most recent episode of DC's Legends of Tomorrow not thinking about racial attitudes in small-town America in the 1950s - unfortunately for Jackson and Kendra, the writers did remember...)
Regarding the use of quantum singularities for power in Romulan vessels, they'd have to be pretty low-mass because I don't care how good your inertial dampeners are, you're going to have a hard time maneuvering your ship if the drive masses as much as a good-sized planet. You extract energy by throwing mass into the singularity (which also keeps it from evaporating too soon), and capturing the energy given up as the mass falls inward. For best results, you want the hole to be rotating, and to have a solid electromagnetic charge (the charge makes it easier to hold it in place with magnetic fields, in a method not unlike antimatter containment aboard most warp-drive craft). Interestingly, this implies that after a certain number of years of service, it might become necessary to remove the singularity from a ship and replace it, as it becomes too massive from the infall to move easily. The lifespan of the drive can be extended if sufficient energy can be extracted from Hawking radiation, as you can then stop feeding it and watch for excess dissipation, but if you've fed it too much, the Hawking radiation level drops (the rate of particle emission is inversely related to the mass of the singularity - the "lighter" it is, the faster it dissipates), and it may no longer be usable. (This also makes the job of drive engineer one of the most dangerous in the entire Romulan fleet, as a quantum black hole in the last stages of evaporation would pretty heavily irradiate the entire engineering compartment, and possibly the entire ship. This does open up some interesting story possibilities, which I might have to use one day...)
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
While keeping the tradition of calling a superior officer 'Sir' or addressing them by rank? No, I'm happy to accept the 'Mister' instances as something Meyer wrote because he'd been reading Hornblower...
If they get rid of one tradition it doesn't mean all traditions have to go too.
If you want to show that as a valid tradition, please cite any instances in TOS where any female officers (or officer candidates) were refered to as 'Mister'...
I don't care if Saavik was shown taking the Kobayashi Maru test or not, she wore an officer's uniform, with rank, and was addressed by rank. I'd question if she was even a cadet, as other cadets on board, the Enterprise were actually wearing cadet uniforms...
When Wesley attended the academy, despite having previously been granted a full-field commission to ensign, he was not referred to as 'Ensign Crusher', but wore the uniform of, and was treated as, any other cadet while at the academy..
Purely from the onscreen evidence, I'd suggest Saavik was actually a graduate who had simply returned to the academy to take that specific test as part of ongoing training -- or even re-training -- as part of career progression (such as when Deanna took the bridge officer's exam, but was able to do so aboard the Enterprise-D on the holodeck, by what amounted to 'correspondence course', which would not have been available in Saavik's day...
Were there any cadets shown in TOS? No. So there's no way to use it as evidence.
While she did wear a uniform her collar was red which signified her as a cadet. She is later commissioned off screen as evidenced by her white collar in Search for Spock and The Voyage Home. http://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2278-2350/uniforms.htm
Again just because something was a tradition in TOS doesn't mean it has to stay that way in TNG. Roddenberry hated WOK because of all the military-ness of it. It stands to reason that he didn't like the Mister stuff (the actual script had way more stuff in it...like when ADM Kirk comes onboard the Enterprise for the first time he salutes the Federation flag). However in time some traditions are kept and some are gone. If we look at the US Navy as an example the Navy of 2016 is not the same as it was in 1916. Some traditions are still practiced while some are gone completely. Last I heard they were thinking about getting rid of the term 'Seaman'.
So it stands to reason that at one time cadets in StarFleet were once called Mister and that sometime before TNG that tradition was done away with.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
First of all, I love that the one or two "Red Matter Haters" completely ignore the alternative of Protomatter... which is equally as fictitious and ridiculous (and canonical) as Red Matter. One was in a movie with Kurtzman, the other in a movie with Meyer. Now, they work together... funny, that.
As to the notion that Romulans were stockpiling Red Matter to pilot their ships... this is an interesting idea. Spock was already working closely with the Romulans at the time of Hobus, something still rather unique in Trek canon. The Romulans are known to be extremely secretive about their technology... the Federation didn't even know about their use of singularities until the Enterprise-D had to assist them (I think the relevant episodes are: "The Next Phase", "Face of the Enemy", and "Timescape"). We are never told how they create and maintain their singularities... it's fully possible that Red Matter is the source of their engine power, and is the reason why they are so secretive about it (and why only Spock had access to it). Romulans being secretive... imagine that.
Further, Federation ships have to eventually replenish things like Dilithium Crystals (thank you, The Voyage Home) and deuterium (thank you, Voyager)... so, it wouldn't be so hard to foresee the Romulans needing to do the same thing for their artificial singularities... since, you know, Red Matter singularities eventually give out.
Finally, as to the reason why the Romulans haven't used Red Matter as a superweapon? Simple. THEY'RE NOT STUPID! It's the same reason why we don't have Omega Particle Weapons, or why Thalaron weapons are outlawed... or, to even use a Real Life example, why the USSR didn't drop a nuke on the US at the first chance. Just because they are "the bad guys" doesn't make them irresponsible. They could easily have recognized the unstable power of Red Matter, and said "holy s**t, using this stuff improperly crosses the line"... which is again shown in the examples of Omega Particles and Thalaron radiation. This also would, again, explain why Spock (a diplomat/scientist) would have access to it... it was a measure of last resort used on a errand of mercy and peace.
... it's fully possible that Red Matter is the source of their engine power, and is the reason why they are so secretive about it...
Well not really no... it was invented for 'JJ' Trek and has never been mentioned before. Your explanation is putting the cart before the horse; whereas occam's razor would suggest the least complicated answer is the most likely one (no more assumptions than necessary should be made in order to draw a conclusion).
Marcus, you wouldn't have seen any female officers in TOS referred to as "mister" because it was written in the 1960s. Am I the only one here old enough to remember casual sexism being the norm? (If so, that's really kind of encouraging, in the same sense as I was encouraged by the characters in the most recent episode of DC's Legends of Tomorrow not thinking about racial attitudes in small-town America in the 1950s - unfortunately for Jackson and Kendra, the writers did remember...)
I remember. Even in the pilot Pike says he can't get used to having a woman on the bridge.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Marcus, you wouldn't have seen any female officers in TOS referred to as "mister" because it was written in the 1960s. Am I the only one here old enough to remember casual sexism being the norm? (If so, that's really kind of encouraging, in the same sense as I was encouraged by the characters in the most recent episode of DC's Legends of Tomorrow not thinking about racial attitudes in small-town America in the 1950s - unfortunately for Jackson and Kendra, the writers did remember...)
I understand that. I also understand that what Khan is refering to as 'a tradition' (and I certainly do acknowledge the historical naval tradition and the disciplinary measure you mentioned upthread) was inconsistent to the previous and subsequent works, so hard to quanitfy as a 'true Starfleet tradition'... In a stand-alone piece, sure, it could have flown, but when viewed in context of previous and subsequent work...
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
While keeping the tradition of calling a superior officer 'Sir' or addressing them by rank? No, I'm happy to accept the 'Mister' instances as something Meyer wrote because he'd been reading Hornblower...
If they get rid of one tradition it doesn't mean all traditions have to go too.
If you want to show that as a valid tradition, please cite any instances in TOS where any female officers (or officer candidates) were refered to as 'Mister'...
I don't care if Saavik was shown taking the Kobayashi Maru test or not, she wore an officer's uniform, with rank, and was addressed by rank. I'd question if she was even a cadet, as other cadets on board, the Enterprise were actually wearing cadet uniforms...
When Wesley attended the academy, despite having previously been granted a full-field commission to ensign, he was not referred to as 'Ensign Crusher', but wore the uniform of, and was treated as, any other cadet while at the academy..
Purely from the onscreen evidence, I'd suggest Saavik was actually a graduate who had simply returned to the academy to take that specific test as part of ongoing training -- or even re-training -- as part of career progression (such as when Deanna took the bridge officer's exam, but was able to do so aboard the Enterprise-D on the holodeck, by what amounted to 'correspondence course', which would not have been available in Saavik's day...
Were there any cadets shown in TOS? No. So there's no way to use it as evidence. While she did wear a uniform her collar was red which signified her as a cadet. She is later commissioned off screen as evidenced by her white collar in Search for Spock and The Voyage Home. http://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2278-2350/uniforms.htm
Again just because something was a tradition in TOS doesn't mean it has to stay that way in TNG. Roddenberry hated WOK because of all the military-ness of it. It stands to reason that he didn't like the Mister stuff (the actual script had way more stuff in it...like when ADM Kirk comes onboard the Enterprise for the first time he salutes the Federation flag). However in time some traditions are kept and some are gone. If we look at the US Navy as an example the Navy of 2016 is not the same as it was in 1916. Some traditions are still practiced while some are gone completely. Last I heard they were thinking about getting rid of the term 'Seaman'.
So it stands to reason that at one time cadets in StarFleet were once called Mister and that sometime before TNG that tradition was done away with.
Ah, that (and the link) clears up my mistake... I was thinking that the enlisted jumpsuits were cadet uniforms... Diregard my idea that Saavik was a graduate returning to take a test...
As for the tradition, again, I take it as an incongruous writing, rather than a tradition legitimate to the inVerse organisation. I agree with you that traditions come and go, but as before, the address used towards cadets in TNG and DS-9 is consistent, compared to the Mister business in WoK...
... it's fully possible that Red Matter is the source of their engine power, and is the reason why they are so secretive about it...
Well not really no... it was invented for 'JJ' Trek and has never been mentioned before. Your explanation is putting the cart before the horse; whereas occam's razor would suggest the least complicated answer is the most likely one (no more assumptions than necessary should be made in order to draw a conclusion).
There is no canonical explanation as to how Romulans maintain their singularity cores. My theory is speculation, yes, fully admit that... but, it's entirely plausible, given the nature of the Trek universe and the pseudo-science they've used for decades.
Red Matter came from the Prime universe, along with Prime Spock. It's canon. Further, it's (again) just as believable as the other made-up OP substances in Trek canon. The "it's never been mentioned before" argument is also weak, because Berman-era writers violated that too many times to count. Again, we've never heard of Thalaron radiation until 2002, with Nemesis, and we never heard about it again.
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
While keeping the tradition of calling a superior officer 'Sir' or addressing them by rank? No, I'm happy to accept the 'Mister' instances as something Meyer wrote because he'd been reading Hornblower...
If they get rid of one tradition it doesn't mean all traditions have to go too.
If you want to show that as a valid tradition, please cite any instances in TOS where any female officers (or officer candidates) were refered to as 'Mister'...
I don't care if Saavik was shown taking the Kobayashi Maru test or not, she wore an officer's uniform, with rank, and was addressed by rank. I'd question if she was even a cadet, as other cadets on board, the Enterprise were actually wearing cadet uniforms...
When Wesley attended the academy, despite having previously been granted a full-field commission to ensign, he was not referred to as 'Ensign Crusher', but wore the uniform of, and was treated as, any other cadet while at the academy..
Purely from the onscreen evidence, I'd suggest Saavik was actually a graduate who had simply returned to the academy to take that specific test as part of ongoing training -- or even re-training -- as part of career progression (such as when Deanna took the bridge officer's exam, but was able to do so aboard the Enterprise-D on the holodeck, by what amounted to 'correspondence course', which would not have been available in Saavik's day...
Were there any cadets shown in TOS? No. So there's no way to use it as evidence. While she did wear a uniform her collar was red which signified her as a cadet. She is later commissioned off screen as evidenced by her white collar in Search for Spock and The Voyage Home. http://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2278-2350/uniforms.htm
Again just because something was a tradition in TOS doesn't mean it has to stay that way in TNG. Roddenberry hated WOK because of all the military-ness of it. It stands to reason that he didn't like the Mister stuff (the actual script had way more stuff in it...like when ADM Kirk comes onboard the Enterprise for the first time he salutes the Federation flag). However in time some traditions are kept and some are gone. If we look at the US Navy as an example the Navy of 2016 is not the same as it was in 1916. Some traditions are still practiced while some are gone completely. Last I heard they were thinking about getting rid of the term 'Seaman'.
So it stands to reason that at one time cadets in StarFleet were once called Mister and that sometime before TNG that tradition was done away with.
Ah, that (and the link) clears up my mistake... I was thinking that the enlisted jumpsuits were cadet uniforms... Diregard my idea that Saavik was a graduate returning to take a test...
As for the tradition, again, I take it as an incongruous writing, rather than a tradition legitimate to the inVerse organisation. I agree with you that traditions come and go, but as before, the address used towards cadets in TNG and DS-9 is consistent, compared to the Mister business in WoK...
TNG and DS9 are consistent because they are happening at the same time. WOK is early 100 years in the past. It's like saying because they are wearing the maroon uniforms in WOK and because they are not wearing the uniforms in TNG and DS9 then the maroon uniforms aren't a legitimate uniform to the inVerse organization.
Is it too out there to believe that at one time cadets were referred to a Mister and that around the time of TNG that usage was dropped?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
While keeping the tradition of calling a superior officer 'Sir' or addressing them by rank? No, I'm happy to accept the 'Mister' instances as something Meyer wrote because he'd been reading Hornblower...
If they get rid of one tradition it doesn't mean all traditions have to go too.
If you want to show that as a valid tradition, please cite any instances in TOS where any female officers (or officer candidates) were refered to as 'Mister'...
I don't care if Saavik was shown taking the Kobayashi Maru test or not, she wore an officer's uniform, with rank, and was addressed by rank. I'd question if she was even a cadet, as other cadets on board, the Enterprise were actually wearing cadet uniforms...
When Wesley attended the academy, despite having previously been granted a full-field commission to ensign, he was not referred to as 'Ensign Crusher', but wore the uniform of, and was treated as, any other cadet while at the academy..
Purely from the onscreen evidence, I'd suggest Saavik was actually a graduate who had simply returned to the academy to take that specific test as part of ongoing training -- or even re-training -- as part of career progression (such as when Deanna took the bridge officer's exam, but was able to do so aboard the Enterprise-D on the holodeck, by what amounted to 'correspondence course', which would not have been available in Saavik's day...
Were there any cadets shown in TOS? No. So there's no way to use it as evidence. While she did wear a uniform her collar was red which signified her as a cadet. She is later commissioned off screen as evidenced by her white collar in Search for Spock and The Voyage Home. http://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2278-2350/uniforms.htm
Again just because something was a tradition in TOS doesn't mean it has to stay that way in TNG. Roddenberry hated WOK because of all the military-ness of it. It stands to reason that he didn't like the Mister stuff (the actual script had way more stuff in it...like when ADM Kirk comes onboard the Enterprise for the first time he salutes the Federation flag). However in time some traditions are kept and some are gone. If we look at the US Navy as an example the Navy of 2016 is not the same as it was in 1916. Some traditions are still practiced while some are gone completely. Last I heard they were thinking about getting rid of the term 'Seaman'.
So it stands to reason that at one time cadets in StarFleet were once called Mister and that sometime before TNG that tradition was done away with.
Ah, that (and the link) clears up my mistake... I was thinking that the enlisted jumpsuits were cadet uniforms... Diregard my idea that Saavik was a graduate returning to take a test...
As for the tradition, again, I take it as an incongruous writing, rather than a tradition legitimate to the inVerse organisation. I agree with you that traditions come and go, but as before, the address used towards cadets in TNG and DS-9 is consistent, compared to the Mister business in WoK...
I think you missed the part where I said... "...in those times..."
I think you've also forgotten that Kirk was very much "Old School" as compared to Picard and Sisko.
Kirk was the one who used the "Mister" ID and Spock just followed his lead, which leads me to believe that it could have very much been an "Admiral Kirk-ism", that most other officers didn't use.
(except maybe Captain Jellico)
Being an Admiral does comes with it's perks and privileges.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
The biggest gap in st lore atm is post st:VI and before TNG:Farpoint. Id love a series set in this gap. Explain y the romulains withdrew back to their borders and expand on the kitomer accords.
I tend to hope it falls into that range too... placing it before they had deliberate and controlled time travel that turned the entire chronology more leprous than Marvel Comics.
Star Trek's later shows crossed effectively Singularity-level tech boundaries more than once. The writers are left with blatantly ignoring the elephant in the room, patchy ret-cons, or a setting that's not actually recognizable anymore by modern day humans.
The biggest gap in st lore atm is post st:VI and before TNG:Farpoint. Id love a series set in this gap. Explain y the romulains withdrew back to their borders and expand on the kitomer accords. Or bring a series post ST: Nemsis that unites TNG/VOY/DS9. Im leaning to the formers in hopes tho
On the one hand, I like the idea of filling in the gaps. On the other hand, placing it within the existing timeline virtually handcuffs the freedom of the writers, because every episode has to fall within existing history and can't conflict with what we know about the future. For that reason, I hope it takes place post Nemesis.
Having said that, if it is a good show I don't really care what time period it is set in
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
While keeping the tradition of calling a superior officer 'Sir' or addressing them by rank? No, I'm happy to accept the 'Mister' instances as something Meyer wrote because he'd been reading Hornblower...
If they get rid of one tradition it doesn't mean all traditions have to go too.
If you want to show that as a valid tradition, please cite any instances in TOS where any female officers (or officer candidates) were refered to as 'Mister'...
I don't care if Saavik was shown taking the Kobayashi Maru test or not, she wore an officer's uniform, with rank, and was addressed by rank. I'd question if she was even a cadet, as other cadets on board, the Enterprise were actually wearing cadet uniforms...
When Wesley attended the academy, despite having previously been granted a full-field commission to ensign, he was not referred to as 'Ensign Crusher', but wore the uniform of, and was treated as, any other cadet while at the academy..
Purely from the onscreen evidence, I'd suggest Saavik was actually a graduate who had simply returned to the academy to take that specific test as part of ongoing training -- or even re-training -- as part of career progression (such as when Deanna took the bridge officer's exam, but was able to do so aboard the Enterprise-D on the holodeck, by what amounted to 'correspondence course', which would not have been available in Saavik's day...
Were there any cadets shown in TOS? No. So there's no way to use it as evidence. While she did wear a uniform her collar was red which signified her as a cadet. She is later commissioned off screen as evidenced by her white collar in Search for Spock and The Voyage Home. http://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2278-2350/uniforms.htm
Again just because something was a tradition in TOS doesn't mean it has to stay that way in TNG. Roddenberry hated WOK because of all the military-ness of it. It stands to reason that he didn't like the Mister stuff (the actual script had way more stuff in it...like when ADM Kirk comes onboard the Enterprise for the first time he salutes the Federation flag). However in time some traditions are kept and some are gone. If we look at the US Navy as an example the Navy of 2016 is not the same as it was in 1916. Some traditions are still practiced while some are gone completely. Last I heard they were thinking about getting rid of the term 'Seaman'.
So it stands to reason that at one time cadets in StarFleet were once called Mister and that sometime before TNG that tradition was done away with.
Ah, that (and the link) clears up my mistake... I was thinking that the enlisted jumpsuits were cadet uniforms... Diregard my idea that Saavik was a graduate returning to take a test...
As for the tradition, again, I take it as an incongruous writing, rather than a tradition legitimate to the inVerse organisation. I agree with you that traditions come and go, but as before, the address used towards cadets in TNG and DS-9 is consistent, compared to the Mister business in WoK...
I think you missed the part where I said... "...in those times..."
I think you've also forgotten that Kirk was very much "Old School" as compared to Picard and Sisko.
Kirk was the one who used the "Mister" ID and Spock just followed his lead, which leads me to believe that it could have very much been an "Admiral Kirk-ism", that most other officers didn't use.
(except maybe Captain Jellico)
Being an Admiral does comes with it's perks and privileges.
I don't think it was Spock following Kirk's lead. I think it was the way the Academy was at the time. If you look at Spock...he almost stands at attention when he says it.
INT. BRIDGE, ENTERPRISE 37
Saavik watches instruments, punches data in response.
SAAVIK
All moorings are clear, Captain.
SPOCK
Thank you, Mr. Saavik.
Spock casts a glance at Kirk, then, to Saavik:
SPOCK
(continuing)
Lieutenant, how many times have you
piloted a Starship out of Spacedock?
SAAVIK
Never, sir.
Kirk tries to conceal his reaction. Spock enjoys it.
SPOCK
Take her out, Mr. Saavik.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
While keeping the tradition of calling a superior officer 'Sir' or addressing them by rank? No, I'm happy to accept the 'Mister' instances as something Meyer wrote because he'd been reading Hornblower...
If they get rid of one tradition it doesn't mean all traditions have to go too.
If you want to show that as a valid tradition, please cite any instances in TOS where any female officers (or officer candidates) were refered to as 'Mister'...
I don't care if Saavik was shown taking the Kobayashi Maru test or not, she wore an officer's uniform, with rank, and was addressed by rank. I'd question if she was even a cadet, as other cadets on board, the Enterprise were actually wearing cadet uniforms...
When Wesley attended the academy, despite having previously been granted a full-field commission to ensign, he was not referred to as 'Ensign Crusher', but wore the uniform of, and was treated as, any other cadet while at the academy..
Purely from the onscreen evidence, I'd suggest Saavik was actually a graduate who had simply returned to the academy to take that specific test as part of ongoing training -- or even re-training -- as part of career progression (such as when Deanna took the bridge officer's exam, but was able to do so aboard the Enterprise-D on the holodeck, by what amounted to 'correspondence course', which would not have been available in Saavik's day...
Were there any cadets shown in TOS? No. So there's no way to use it as evidence. While she did wear a uniform her collar was red which signified her as a cadet. She is later commissioned off screen as evidenced by her white collar in Search for Spock and The Voyage Home. http://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2278-2350/uniforms.htm
Again just because something was a tradition in TOS doesn't mean it has to stay that way in TNG. Roddenberry hated WOK because of all the military-ness of it. It stands to reason that he didn't like the Mister stuff (the actual script had way more stuff in it...like when ADM Kirk comes onboard the Enterprise for the first time he salutes the Federation flag). However in time some traditions are kept and some are gone. If we look at the US Navy as an example the Navy of 2016 is not the same as it was in 1916. Some traditions are still practiced while some are gone completely. Last I heard they were thinking about getting rid of the term 'Seaman'.
So it stands to reason that at one time cadets in StarFleet were once called Mister and that sometime before TNG that tradition was done away with.
Ah, that (and the link) clears up my mistake... I was thinking that the enlisted jumpsuits were cadet uniforms... Diregard my idea that Saavik was a graduate returning to take a test...
As for the tradition, again, I take it as an incongruous writing, rather than a tradition legitimate to the inVerse organisation. I agree with you that traditions come and go, but as before, the address used towards cadets in TNG and DS-9 is consistent, compared to the Mister business in WoK...
TNG and DS9 are consistent because they are happening at the same time. WOK is early 100 years in the past. It's like saying because they are wearing the maroon uniforms in WOK and because they are not wearing the uniforms in TNG and DS9 then the maroon uniforms aren't a legitimate uniform to the inVerse organization. Is it too out there to believe that at one time cadets were referred to a Mister and that around the time of TNG that usage was dropped?
IMHO, yes, given all other terms of address remained consistent between the time of Enterprise, to the time of Nemesis (except for the Mister malarky of WoK...)
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
While keeping the tradition of calling a superior officer 'Sir' or addressing them by rank? No, I'm happy to accept the 'Mister' instances as something Meyer wrote because he'd been reading Hornblower...
If they get rid of one tradition it doesn't mean all traditions have to go too.
If you want to show that as a valid tradition, please cite any instances in TOS where any female officers (or officer candidates) were refered to as 'Mister'...
I don't care if Saavik was shown taking the Kobayashi Maru test or not, she wore an officer's uniform, with rank, and was addressed by rank. I'd question if she was even a cadet, as other cadets on board, the Enterprise were actually wearing cadet uniforms...
When Wesley attended the academy, despite having previously been granted a full-field commission to ensign, he was not referred to as 'Ensign Crusher', but wore the uniform of, and was treated as, any other cadet while at the academy..
Purely from the onscreen evidence, I'd suggest Saavik was actually a graduate who had simply returned to the academy to take that specific test as part of ongoing training -- or even re-training -- as part of career progression (such as when Deanna took the bridge officer's exam, but was able to do so aboard the Enterprise-D on the holodeck, by what amounted to 'correspondence course', which would not have been available in Saavik's day...
Were there any cadets shown in TOS? No. So there's no way to use it as evidence. While she did wear a uniform her collar was red which signified her as a cadet. She is later commissioned off screen as evidenced by her white collar in Search for Spock and The Voyage Home. http://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2278-2350/uniforms.htm
Again just because something was a tradition in TOS doesn't mean it has to stay that way in TNG. Roddenberry hated WOK because of all the military-ness of it. It stands to reason that he didn't like the Mister stuff (the actual script had way more stuff in it...like when ADM Kirk comes onboard the Enterprise for the first time he salutes the Federation flag). However in time some traditions are kept and some are gone. If we look at the US Navy as an example the Navy of 2016 is not the same as it was in 1916. Some traditions are still practiced while some are gone completely. Last I heard they were thinking about getting rid of the term 'Seaman'.
So it stands to reason that at one time cadets in StarFleet were once called Mister and that sometime before TNG that tradition was done away with.
Ah, that (and the link) clears up my mistake... I was thinking that the enlisted jumpsuits were cadet uniforms... Diregard my idea that Saavik was a graduate returning to take a test...
As for the tradition, again, I take it as an incongruous writing, rather than a tradition legitimate to the inVerse organisation. I agree with you that traditions come and go, but as before, the address used towards cadets in TNG and DS-9 is consistent, compared to the Mister business in WoK...
I think you missed the part where I said... "...in those times..."
I think you've also forgotten that Kirk was very much "Old School" as compared to Picard and Sisko.
Kirk was the one who used the "Mister" ID and Spock just followed his lead, which leads me to believe that it could have very much been an "Admiral Kirk-ism", that most other officers didn't use.
(except maybe Captain Jellico)
Being an Admiral does comes with it's perks and privileges.
Now that I could certainly except, especially given Kirk's less than professional behaviour in TMP toward Decker, and borderline incompetence...
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
While keeping the tradition of calling a superior officer 'Sir' or addressing them by rank? No, I'm happy to accept the 'Mister' instances as something Meyer wrote because he'd been reading Hornblower...
If they get rid of one tradition it doesn't mean all traditions have to go too.
If you want to show that as a valid tradition, please cite any instances in TOS where any female officers (or officer candidates) were refered to as 'Mister'...
I don't care if Saavik was shown taking the Kobayashi Maru test or not, she wore an officer's uniform, with rank, and was addressed by rank. I'd question if she was even a cadet, as other cadets on board, the Enterprise were actually wearing cadet uniforms...
When Wesley attended the academy, despite having previously been granted a full-field commission to ensign, he was not referred to as 'Ensign Crusher', but wore the uniform of, and was treated as, any other cadet while at the academy..
Purely from the onscreen evidence, I'd suggest Saavik was actually a graduate who had simply returned to the academy to take that specific test as part of ongoing training -- or even re-training -- as part of career progression (such as when Deanna took the bridge officer's exam, but was able to do so aboard the Enterprise-D on the holodeck, by what amounted to 'correspondence course', which would not have been available in Saavik's day...
Were there any cadets shown in TOS? No. So there's no way to use it as evidence. While she did wear a uniform her collar was red which signified her as a cadet. She is later commissioned off screen as evidenced by her white collar in Search for Spock and The Voyage Home. http://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2278-2350/uniforms.htm
Again just because something was a tradition in TOS doesn't mean it has to stay that way in TNG. Roddenberry hated WOK because of all the military-ness of it. It stands to reason that he didn't like the Mister stuff (the actual script had way more stuff in it...like when ADM Kirk comes onboard the Enterprise for the first time he salutes the Federation flag). However in time some traditions are kept and some are gone. If we look at the US Navy as an example the Navy of 2016 is not the same as it was in 1916. Some traditions are still practiced while some are gone completely. Last I heard they were thinking about getting rid of the term 'Seaman'.
So it stands to reason that at one time cadets in StarFleet were once called Mister and that sometime before TNG that tradition was done away with.
Ah, that (and the link) clears up my mistake... I was thinking that the enlisted jumpsuits were cadet uniforms... Diregard my idea that Saavik was a graduate returning to take a test...
As for the tradition, again, I take it as an incongruous writing, rather than a tradition legitimate to the inVerse organisation. I agree with you that traditions come and go, but as before, the address used towards cadets in TNG and DS-9 is consistent, compared to the Mister business in WoK...
TNG and DS9 are consistent because they are happening at the same time. WOK is early 100 years in the past. It's like saying because they are wearing the maroon uniforms in WOK and because they are not wearing the uniforms in TNG and DS9 then the maroon uniforms aren't a legitimate uniform to the inVerse organization. Is it too out there to believe that at one time cadets were referred to a Mister and that around the time of TNG that usage was dropped?
IMHO, yes, given all other terms of address remained consistent between the time of Enterprise, to the time of Nemesis (except for the Mister malarky of WoK...)
There were cadets in Enterprise?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Again I say... They were Cadets on a Training Mission.
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I understand that they were cadets, but I'm trying to think how Sisko addressed Red Squad and Nog... I think they were addressed primarily as 'Cadet'... (can't rightly remember...)
Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
While keeping the tradition of calling a superior officer 'Sir' or addressing them by rank? No, I'm happy to accept the 'Mister' instances as something Meyer wrote because he'd been reading Hornblower...
If they get rid of one tradition it doesn't mean all traditions have to go too.
If you want to show that as a valid tradition, please cite any instances in TOS where any female officers (or officer candidates) were refered to as 'Mister'...
I don't care if Saavik was shown taking the Kobayashi Maru test or not, she wore an officer's uniform, with rank, and was addressed by rank. I'd question if she was even a cadet, as other cadets on board, the Enterprise were actually wearing cadet uniforms...
When Wesley attended the academy, despite having previously been granted a full-field commission to ensign, he was not referred to as 'Ensign Crusher', but wore the uniform of, and was treated as, any other cadet while at the academy..
Purely from the onscreen evidence, I'd suggest Saavik was actually a graduate who had simply returned to the academy to take that specific test as part of ongoing training -- or even re-training -- as part of career progression (such as when Deanna took the bridge officer's exam, but was able to do so aboard the Enterprise-D on the holodeck, by what amounted to 'correspondence course', which would not have been available in Saavik's day...
Were there any cadets shown in TOS? No. So there's no way to use it as evidence. While she did wear a uniform her collar was red which signified her as a cadet. She is later commissioned off screen as evidenced by her white collar in Search for Spock and The Voyage Home. http://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2278-2350/uniforms.htm
Again just because something was a tradition in TOS doesn't mean it has to stay that way in TNG. Roddenberry hated WOK because of all the military-ness of it. It stands to reason that he didn't like the Mister stuff (the actual script had way more stuff in it...like when ADM Kirk comes onboard the Enterprise for the first time he salutes the Federation flag). However in time some traditions are kept and some are gone. If we look at the US Navy as an example the Navy of 2016 is not the same as it was in 1916. Some traditions are still practiced while some are gone completely. Last I heard they were thinking about getting rid of the term 'Seaman'.
So it stands to reason that at one time cadets in StarFleet were once called Mister and that sometime before TNG that tradition was done away with.
Ah, that (and the link) clears up my mistake... I was thinking that the enlisted jumpsuits were cadet uniforms... Diregard my idea that Saavik was a graduate returning to take a test...
As for the tradition, again, I take it as an incongruous writing, rather than a tradition legitimate to the inVerse organisation. I agree with you that traditions come and go, but as before, the address used towards cadets in TNG and DS-9 is consistent, compared to the Mister business in WoK...
TNG and DS9 are consistent because they are happening at the same time. WOK is early 100 years in the past. It's like saying because they are wearing the maroon uniforms in WOK and because they are not wearing the uniforms in TNG and DS9 then the maroon uniforms aren't a legitimate uniform to the inVerse organization. Is it too out there to believe that at one time cadets were referred to a Mister and that around the time of TNG that usage was dropped?
IMHO, yes, given all other terms of address remained consistent between the time of Enterprise, to the time of Nemesis (except for the Mister malarky of WoK...)
There were cadets in Enterprise?
That there were no cadets is irrelevant, because the words of Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway (and I suspect Archer) show that it's not a cadet-only term, that's just how you're trying to hang it... There were numerous female officers in Enterprise, and ToS, and TNG,and DS-9, and Voyager, and in none of those series, was the term 'Mister' applied to female officers... Only to Saavik, and as dave suggests, most likely a 'Kirk-ism'...
Comments
Then stop suggesting it, like you are about to do in 3, 2, 1...
See, there you go again. Do you actually understand what that term("in lieu of") means? It means "in place of", or "substituting for". I did *NOT* say that the comic takes the place of, or substitutes for canon. So responding to my post by repeatedly saying that that comic isn't canon, or doesn't take the place of canon, when I did *NOT* say those things, is strawmanning. Give it up already.
Once again, there is a *fundamental* difference. The comic story was officially approved by the IP holder. Your little pet theory was not. So no, it's not "like any pet theory out there", it was actually approved by the IP holder. That doesn't make it canon, but that definitely gives it more credibility than random joe's fan theory.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I agree, a standard term must be used, and from what I can think of, most times on Trek have involved rank... In WoK, it just seemed excessively used...
Traditions used during those times are probably dropped once one graduates from the Academy.
And Kirk became much less formal toward Saavik after the battle with Khan.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Because the first was specifically designed to swallow Hobus and then dissipate and the second was formed from the containment unit being shot. Those two examples are hardly a fair assessment of how it works.
No, I'm not. There's many explanations for that, the most obvious being the stability time can be controlled, the second is the possible ability to 'lock-down' the effects of a rupture in a similar way to the muted explosion of warp core breaches.
[/quote]
Furthermore, if Romulans had that kind of access to red matter, they would A: be capable of using it as a superweapon and B: not have to wait for the Vulcans to make up their minds and let Spock try to save Romulus - Nero could save the planet himself, as could any Romulan starship captain in the entire galaxy, so long as they got there in time.[/quote]
Oh come on. Going to warp in a system is mentioned to have the potential to make a star go supernova. You could warp a drone ship directly into the Earth. Mass transport warheads into the crust as Earth has no shields. Use those magic self replicating mines that can create matter out of their TRIBBLE.
Star Trek is full of technology never used to its full potential as it solely exists to advance the plot. But you want to randomly TRIBBLE all over the AR films rather than bother looking at the gaping flaws in other Trek offerings. Protomatter and the aforementioned self replicating mines immediately come to mind.
As for point 'B'. The Romulans didn't believe Spock remember, Nero and his crew where the only ones who did.
Same as above. If ST operated on any logic there could never be any of the situations we see onscreen. All the Romulans would need to do to end the Earth Romulan war would be to warp their cloaked ships into Sol and wipe out Earth. They don't because that would be a stupid plot because there is no defence against that.
Star Trek has never been rebooted.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Also DS9 is about 75-100 years past TOS...that tradition of calling cadets Mister may have been done away with.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Actually, there are three examples.
1. Spock picks up a small unit of red matter and drops it to swallow Hobus. This singularity seems to have disappeared within the hour.
2. Nero picks up a similarly small unit of red matter and drops it to swallow Vulcan. This singularity's lifespan seems similar, as it disappears immediately upon consuming the planet.
3. The Jellyfish is destroyed. This singularity would be a major navigational hazard, especially in such close proximity to Sol. It is never mentioned, so it must also have been destroyed within a negligible amount of time.
The stability time can be controlled? By what, reading the script, like the ST09 singularities do? Try again.
Plus, again, holding that much red matter aboard Each. And. Every. One. of your ships moves Romulus from being caused by distrust into being caused by an incredibly large idiot ball.
If you're referring to the DS9 episode where a Changeling impersonating Bashir tries to ram a runabout into the Bajoran sun: There was something on that runabout, I can't remember what it was, but that was what was responsible.
The only reasonable explanation for these is that they're left unused to prevent anyone with a bone to pick with a government from knowing that they can easily do it. It's full of holes, but it's better than the alternative.
Self-replicating mines might have been working from an external stash of materials or cannibalizing leftover debris from a detonation - plus I think they were explicitly said to be as simple as possible. As for protomatter, you're going to have to be a bit more specific.
Finally, while there are gaping flaws in other Trek offerings (personally, I needn't look any farther than "Spock's Brain", "Threshold", or that one early Voyager episode which had the ship breach the event horizon of a black hole), at least they do it in a more or less consistent fashion that tells us that, as crappily executed as some parts of the episode in question may be, it's still Star Trek. The reboot doesn't even try to pretend it's Star Trek on any but the most superficial of levels.
I don't remember, I never read Countdown - and even if the Path to 2409 also contains that information, it's been a while since I read that too.
It is a highly accurate interpretation on all counts. As for warping into Earth, see above - they may be unwilling to perform such easy cataclysmic attacks because some rebel might decide it's a good idea to warp into Romulus, or Qo'noS, or Cardassia....
[/quote]
This is either a blatant lie or a case of severe self-delusion. (Actually, the self-delusion is there either way, it's just whether it's "they'll buy it!" or "it's true!" that remains to be seen.)
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
A black hole the mass of the one we saw in the end of the '09 movie would not have been a "major navigational hazard" - it appeared to mass less than Earth, and thus would be less dangerous than any of a number of rogue planets out there. It also wouldn't have been as large as depicted - its diameter would have been measured in centimeters, not meters, and probably in single digits at that - but as this may have been an artifact of the fact that it was still in the process of forming, this actually makes it less of a break from reality than VOY's "crack in the event horizon", as if an event horizon were an actual physical object. (Theoretical astrophysics, particularly those surrounding black holes, are a bit of a hobby of mine...)
The biggest departure from reality in ST09 (aside from the usual Treknobabble) was the idea that a quantum black hole would swallow a planet quickly. It would have been smaller than the drop of red matter that was shown forming it; sweeping up a few particles at a time, it would have taken somewhere between centuries and millennia to do its work. (On the plus side, the constant infall of mass would have counterbalanced the Hawking radiation, keeping the hole from dissipating too soon...)
If they get rid of one tradition it doesn't mean all traditions have to go too.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I suppose it's not Red Matter, because if they did, they could have done Spock's job themselves, but Red Matter is just not really better science than many of the other Trek science things. (Including stuff that Star Trek just took from other sources, like Positronic Brains...)
If you want to get into the science of artificial singularities as energy source:
The most obvious (and maybe the only) way to generate energy from singularities would be to have low mass ones. The Hawking radiation of black holes is higher the ligher they get. Releasing Hawking radiation means also losing mass for the singularity, which increases the radiation further, until the point where there is no mass left and the singularity evaporates.
"Normal" black holes that are the result of collapsed stars, or those in the center of many galxies, are way too massive to generate signfiicant amount of hawking radiation, and they actually gain more energy from the background radiation than they lose from hawking radiation.
Black holes of that size will only start evaporating long after pretty much anything else in the universe has been sucked up by them, and the background radiation has cooled down too a level low enough.
So, those artificial singularities aboard the Romulan Warbirds probably have a very low mass to generate signfiicant amount of radiation. But that also means they'll evaporate. How do you stop that? You can feed them with new mass (or radiation).
Where does Red Matter into this? Nowhere. Maybe it's needed to create a singularity (however that would work, I am not claiming it's good science). That a low mass singularity - created with red matter or something "realistic" - would not live long isn't a big suprise.
EDIT: dang, jonsill basically already said everything improtant to say about black holes and singularities, and more than I did, too. (Like a low mass singularity wouldn't consume a planet very fast at all. Which is why those Large Hadron Collider scares about it accidentally creating black holes that kill us all were dumb.)
It's an attempted reboot at the very least, whatever they want to call it.
As for black holes, I suppose I did overstate its influence - but for something with subterrestrial mass, that one was exerting quite a significant gravitational pull if it could cancel out the Enterprise's engines. (While I can accept the warp drive being rendered inoperable by secondary effects, that still leaves the impulse engines, which are more than enough for most sublight propulsion.)
At least positronic brains had a little thought behind them. I'd much sooner believe "somebody has figured out how to make artificial neural nets using antimatter" than "somebody has developed a magical substance that suddenly becomes superheavy (the only reasonable explanation I know for their gravitational pull) and superdense when destabilized".
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
If you want to show that as a valid tradition, please cite any instances in TOS where any female officers (or officer candidates) were refered to as 'Mister'...
I don't care if Saavik was shown taking the Kobayashi Maru test or not, she wore an officer's uniform, with rank, and was addressed by rank. I'd question if she was even a cadet, as other cadets on board, the Enterprise were actually wearing cadet uniforms...
When Wesley attended the academy, despite having previously been granted a full-field commission to ensign, he was not referred to as 'Ensign Crusher', but wore the uniform of, and was treated as, any other cadet while at the academy..
Purely from the onscreen evidence, I'd suggest Saavik was actually a graduate who had simply returned to the academy to take that specific test as part of ongoing training -- or even re-training -- as part of career progression (such as when Deanna took the bridge officer's exam, but was able to do so aboard the Enterprise-D on the holodeck, by what amounted to 'correspondence course', which would not have been available in Saavik's day...
Regarding the use of quantum singularities for power in Romulan vessels, they'd have to be pretty low-mass because I don't care how good your inertial dampeners are, you're going to have a hard time maneuvering your ship if the drive masses as much as a good-sized planet. You extract energy by throwing mass into the singularity (which also keeps it from evaporating too soon), and capturing the energy given up as the mass falls inward. For best results, you want the hole to be rotating, and to have a solid electromagnetic charge (the charge makes it easier to hold it in place with magnetic fields, in a method not unlike antimatter containment aboard most warp-drive craft). Interestingly, this implies that after a certain number of years of service, it might become necessary to remove the singularity from a ship and replace it, as it becomes too massive from the infall to move easily. The lifespan of the drive can be extended if sufficient energy can be extracted from Hawking radiation, as you can then stop feeding it and watch for excess dissipation, but if you've fed it too much, the Hawking radiation level drops (the rate of particle emission is inversely related to the mass of the singularity - the "lighter" it is, the faster it dissipates), and it may no longer be usable. (This also makes the job of drive engineer one of the most dangerous in the entire Romulan fleet, as a quantum black hole in the last stages of evaporation would pretty heavily irradiate the entire engineering compartment, and possibly the entire ship. This does open up some interesting story possibilities, which I might have to use one day...)
Were there any cadets shown in TOS? No. So there's no way to use it as evidence.
While she did wear a uniform her collar was red which signified her as a cadet. She is later commissioned off screen as evidenced by her white collar in Search for Spock and The Voyage Home.
http://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2278-2350/uniforms.htm
Again just because something was a tradition in TOS doesn't mean it has to stay that way in TNG. Roddenberry hated WOK because of all the military-ness of it. It stands to reason that he didn't like the Mister stuff (the actual script had way more stuff in it...like when ADM Kirk comes onboard the Enterprise for the first time he salutes the Federation flag). However in time some traditions are kept and some are gone. If we look at the US Navy as an example the Navy of 2016 is not the same as it was in 1916. Some traditions are still practiced while some are gone completely. Last I heard they were thinking about getting rid of the term 'Seaman'.
So it stands to reason that at one time cadets in StarFleet were once called Mister and that sometime before TNG that tradition was done away with.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
First of all, I love that the one or two "Red Matter Haters" completely ignore the alternative of Protomatter... which is equally as fictitious and ridiculous (and canonical) as Red Matter. One was in a movie with Kurtzman, the other in a movie with Meyer. Now, they work together... funny, that.
As to the notion that Romulans were stockpiling Red Matter to pilot their ships... this is an interesting idea. Spock was already working closely with the Romulans at the time of Hobus, something still rather unique in Trek canon. The Romulans are known to be extremely secretive about their technology... the Federation didn't even know about their use of singularities until the Enterprise-D had to assist them (I think the relevant episodes are: "The Next Phase", "Face of the Enemy", and "Timescape"). We are never told how they create and maintain their singularities... it's fully possible that Red Matter is the source of their engine power, and is the reason why they are so secretive about it (and why only Spock had access to it). Romulans being secretive... imagine that.
Further, Federation ships have to eventually replenish things like Dilithium Crystals (thank you, The Voyage Home) and deuterium (thank you, Voyager)... so, it wouldn't be so hard to foresee the Romulans needing to do the same thing for their artificial singularities... since, you know, Red Matter singularities eventually give out.
Finally, as to the reason why the Romulans haven't used Red Matter as a superweapon? Simple. THEY'RE NOT STUPID! It's the same reason why we don't have Omega Particle Weapons, or why Thalaron weapons are outlawed... or, to even use a Real Life example, why the USSR didn't drop a nuke on the US at the first chance. Just because they are "the bad guys" doesn't make them irresponsible. They could easily have recognized the unstable power of Red Matter, and said "holy s**t, using this stuff improperly crosses the line"... which is again shown in the examples of Omega Particles and Thalaron radiation. This also would, again, explain why Spock (a diplomat/scientist) would have access to it... it was a measure of last resort used on a errand of mercy and peace.
Well not really no... it was invented for 'JJ' Trek and has never been mentioned before. Your explanation is putting the cart before the horse; whereas occam's razor would suggest the least complicated answer is the most likely one (no more assumptions than necessary should be made in order to draw a conclusion).
I remember. Even in the pilot Pike says he can't get used to having a woman on the bridge.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
As for the tradition, again, I take it as an incongruous writing, rather than a tradition legitimate to the inVerse organisation. I agree with you that traditions come and go, but as before, the address used towards cadets in TNG and DS-9 is consistent, compared to the Mister business in WoK...
There is no canonical explanation as to how Romulans maintain their singularity cores. My theory is speculation, yes, fully admit that... but, it's entirely plausible, given the nature of the Trek universe and the pseudo-science they've used for decades.
Red Matter came from the Prime universe, along with Prime Spock. It's canon. Further, it's (again) just as believable as the other made-up OP substances in Trek canon. The "it's never been mentioned before" argument is also weak, because Berman-era writers violated that too many times to count. Again, we've never heard of Thalaron radiation until 2002, with Nemesis, and we never heard about it again.
TNG and DS9 are consistent because they are happening at the same time. WOK is early 100 years in the past. It's like saying because they are wearing the maroon uniforms in WOK and because they are not wearing the uniforms in TNG and DS9 then the maroon uniforms aren't a legitimate uniform to the inVerse organization.
Is it too out there to believe that at one time cadets were referred to a Mister and that around the time of TNG that usage was dropped?
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I think you missed the part where I said... "...in those times..."
I think you've also forgotten that Kirk was very much "Old School" as compared to Picard and Sisko.
Kirk was the one who used the "Mister" ID and Spock just followed his lead, which leads me to believe that it could have very much been an "Admiral Kirk-ism", that most other officers didn't use.
(except maybe Captain Jellico)
Being an Admiral does comes with it's perks and privileges.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I tend to hope it falls into that range too... placing it before they had deliberate and controlled time travel that turned the entire chronology more leprous than Marvel Comics.
Star Trek's later shows crossed effectively Singularity-level tech boundaries more than once. The writers are left with blatantly ignoring the elephant in the room, patchy ret-cons, or a setting that's not actually recognizable anymore by modern day humans.
On the one hand, I like the idea of filling in the gaps. On the other hand, placing it within the existing timeline virtually handcuffs the freedom of the writers, because every episode has to fall within existing history and can't conflict with what we know about the future. For that reason, I hope it takes place post Nemesis.
Having said that, if it is a good show I don't really care what time period it is set in
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I don't think it was Spock following Kirk's lead. I think it was the way the Academy was at the time. If you look at Spock...he almost stands at attention when he says it.
INT. BRIDGE, ENTERPRISE 37
Saavik watches instruments, punches data in response.
SAAVIK
All moorings are clear, Captain.
SPOCK
Thank you, Mr. Saavik.
Spock casts a glance at Kirk, then, to Saavik:
SPOCK
(continuing)
Lieutenant, how many times have you
piloted a Starship out of Spacedock?
SAAVIK
Never, sir.
Kirk tries to conceal his reaction. Spock enjoys it.
SPOCK
Take her out, Mr. Saavik.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
There were cadets in Enterprise?
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.