I attribute it all to the fact that most of the story involves Cadets from Star Fleet Academy on a Training Mission and they just have traditions that tend to go by the wayside when one graduates and starts ones career on board a Non-Academy Starship.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
You wouldn't include "Countdown to Darkness" or the "Khan" mini-series? While CtD doesn't add much to STID (except maybe a reason why Kirk thought his first officer would back him up) the Khan mini is a great read, explains so many details left out of STID, like the difference in his appearance, how long he was working for Marcus, if that really is Praxis destroyed so many years earlier, and how the portable transwarp transporter actually works. Plus it has a great telling of Khan's pre-Botany Bay origins.
No, not really. Because canonising them would confirm that John Harrison is Khan Noonien Singh and not another Augment by the name of Khan. I.e. my prefered theory which I prefer over S31 using plastic surgery.
All the other details from the comics are nice and all but not really any better or worse than the other fluff from the various novelisations and adaptations of the other films. Unlike 09, ID stood up as well or as worse as the other films, where the whole plot was open and accessible through the film. 09 (and Nemesis) had the huge problem of their main villains not making any sense. Past villains all had motives the audience could understand even if it was a stupid motive. Everything else can be filled in with a bit of imagination, which I don't mind doing in a film.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
You wouldn't include "Countdown to Darkness" or the "Khan" mini-series? While CtD doesn't add much to STID (except maybe a reason why Kirk thought his first officer would back him up) the Khan mini is a great read, explains so many details left out of STID, like the difference in his appearance, how long he was working for Marcus, if that really is Praxis destroyed so many years earlier, and how the portable transwarp transporter actually works. Plus it has a great telling of Khan's pre-Botany Bay origins.
No, not really. Because canonising them would confirm that John Harrison is Khan Noonien Singh and not another Augment by the name of Khan. I.e. my prefered theory which I prefer over S31 using plastic surgery.
My "pet theory" was that Harrison was actually this guy:
IMO, he actually favors Cumberbatch. So, theoretically, they could have woken him up, then he simply *claimed* to be Khan to try to gain control over the situation and try to release the real Khan.
That said, the Khan mini-series is definitely the *official* explanation. Whether we like that or not is irrelevant to that fact.
Rod Roddenberry joining really does nothing for me. I was much more excited to hear Nicholas Meyer's attachment.
Almost opposite reaction for me. I'm not a member of the "cult of holy twok" and I really hate that Meyer used ideas that were known to be scientifically impossible as major plot points and I fear with him on the new show that it will be more of the same.
You wouldn't include "Countdown to Darkness" or the "Khan" mini-series? While CtD doesn't add much to STID (except maybe a reason why Kirk thought his first officer would back him up) the Khan mini is a great read, explains so many details left out of STID, like the difference in his appearance, how long he was working for Marcus, if that really is Praxis destroyed so many years earlier, and how the portable transwarp transporter actually works. Plus it has a great telling of Khan's pre-Botany Bay origins.
No, not really. Because canonising them would confirm that John Harrison is Khan Noonien Singh and not another Augment by the name of Khan. I.e. my prefered theory which I prefer over S31 using plastic surgery.
My "pet theory" was that Harrison was actually this guy:
IMO, he actually favors Cumberbatch. So, theoretically, they could have woken him up, then he simply *claimed* to be Khan to try to gain control over the situation and try to release the real Khan.
That said, the Khan mini-series is definitely the *official* explanation. Whether we like that or not is irrelevant to that fact.
Not him specifically, but that's really what I think. And sure, the comic may be officially licenced, but it has as much bearing on the events of the film as our headcanon. All the comic is, is headcanon that generates money for Bad Robot (or whomever).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
You wouldn't include "Countdown to Darkness" or the "Khan" mini-series? While CtD doesn't add much to STID (except maybe a reason why Kirk thought his first officer would back him up) the Khan mini is a great read, explains so many details left out of STID, like the difference in his appearance, how long he was working for Marcus, if that really is Praxis destroyed so many years earlier, and how the portable transwarp transporter actually works. Plus it has a great telling of Khan's pre-Botany Bay origins.
No, not really. Because canonising them would confirm that John Harrison is Khan Noonien Singh and not another Augment by the name of Khan. I.e. my prefered theory which I prefer over S31 using plastic surgery.
My "pet theory" was that Harrison was actually this guy:
IMO, he actually favors Cumberbatch. So, theoretically, they could have woken him up, then he simply *claimed* to be Khan to try to gain control over the situation and try to release the real Khan.
That said, the Khan mini-series is definitely the *official* explanation. Whether we like that or not is irrelevant to that fact.
Not him specifically, but that's really what I think. And sure, the comic may be officially licenced, but it has as much bearing on the events of the film as our headcanon. All the comic is, is headcanon that generates money for Bad Robot (or whomever).
No offense, but your personal opinion simply isn't on the same level as an officially published story, which was directly overseen by one of the writers of the movie. No, I'm not claiming it is "canon" like the movie itself, but it is still on a higher level than random joe's personal opinion.
You wouldn't include "Countdown to Darkness" or the "Khan" mini-series? While CtD doesn't add much to STID (except maybe a reason why Kirk thought his first officer would back him up) the Khan mini is a great read, explains so many details left out of STID, like the difference in his appearance, how long he was working for Marcus, if that really is Praxis destroyed so many years earlier, and how the portable transwarp transporter actually works. Plus it has a great telling of Khan's pre-Botany Bay origins.
No, not really. Because canonising them would confirm that John Harrison is Khan Noonien Singh and not another Augment by the name of Khan. I.e. my prefered theory which I prefer over S31 using plastic surgery.
My "pet theory" was that Harrison was actually this guy:
IMO, he actually favors Cumberbatch. So, theoretically, they could have woken him up, then he simply *claimed* to be Khan to try to gain control over the situation and try to release the real Khan.
That said, the Khan mini-series is definitely the *official* explanation. Whether we like that or not is irrelevant to that fact.
Not him specifically, but that's really what I think. And sure, the comic may be officially licenced, but it has as much bearing on the events of the film as our headcanon. All the comic is, is headcanon that generates money for Bad Robot (or whomever).
No offense, but your personal opinion simply isn't on the same level as an officially published story, which was directly overseen by one of the writers of the movie. No, I'm not claiming it is "canon" like the movie itself, but it is still on a higher level than random joe's personal opinion.
Well, yes, but it still remains, it's only the writers headcanon they've managed to get money from.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Rod Roddenberry joining really does nothing for me. I was much more excited to hear Nicholas Meyer's attachment.
Almost opposite reaction for me. I'm not a member of the "cult of holy twok" and I really hate that Meyer used ideas that were known to be scientifically impossible as major plot points and I fear with him on the new show that it will be more of the same.
Kurtzman, Red Matter. I"ll take Meyer anyday.
Lol, since Meyer is working FOR Kurtzman on this new series I'm not sure what difference you think it makes. Besides, it has been canon since TNG that Romulans use artificial singularities to power their ships, those have to be made somehow. Also, in what way is Red Matter worse than Protomatter?
Romulans use artificial singularities, yes. They do not, however, magically conjure them up from some red blob of goo.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
(...)
No offense, but your personal opinion simply isn't on the same level as an officially published story, which was directly overseen by one of the writers of the movie. No, I'm not claiming it is "canon" like the movie itself, but it is still on a higher level than random joe's personal opinion.
Star Trek doesn't have "tiers" of canonicity. There's only canon and non-canon. "Officially licensed" doesn't mean anything regarding the canon lore, it just means it's fanfiction someone paid the licensing fees for. Novelizations or comic books can never be an "official" explanation, unless the IP holders make a statement that this is true.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with quality. A lot of people seem to assume "canon" means good and "non-canon" means bad, which is far from the truth. I personally know Trek canon but personally dismis a lot of what happened post TNG/DS9 because a lot of it is just stupid in my opinion. Also, I almost universally ignore the movies altogether (everything which has no original cast member, basically) because their plots make no sense and they are written to stand on their own. Still, when debating canon I know what I have to include in the debate
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Rod Roddenberry joining really does nothing for me. I was much more excited to hear Nicholas Meyer's attachment.
Almost opposite reaction for me. I'm not a member of the "cult of holy twok" and I really hate that Meyer used ideas that were known to be scientifically impossible as major plot points and I fear with him on the new show that it will be more of the same.
Kurtzman, Red Matter. I"ll take Meyer anyday.
Lol, since Meyer is working FOR Kurtzman on this new series I'm not sure what difference you think it makes. Besides, it has been canon since TNG that Romulans use artificial singularities to power their ships, those have to be made somehow. Also, in what way is Red Matter worse than Protomatter?
Romulans use artificial singularities, yes. They do not, however, magically conjure them up from some red blob of goo.
Oh really? Where in the show does it say Romulans don't convert refined decalithium into red matter and use it to create their singularities?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
For one, singularities generated by red matter seem to have an extremely short lifespan, much less than a single day. Unless you're proposing that each Romulan ship holds huge stockpiles of red matter to periodically refresh the singularity, that already rules it out. (And given the fact that Romulan ships aren't exactly known for creating singularities of devastating scales upon being destroyed, I believe we can deny that proposition as well. STO may portray the singularity expanding out before imploding and subsequently exploding, but not at the scale witnessed after the destruction of the Jellyfish.)
Furthermore, if Romulans had that kind of access to red matter, they would A: be capable of using it as a superweapon and B: not have to wait for the Vulcans to make up their minds and let Spock try to save Romulus - Nero could save the planet himself, as could any Romulan starship captain in the entire galaxy, so long as they got there in time.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
(...)
No offense, but your personal opinion simply isn't on the same level as an officially published story, which was directly overseen by one of the writers of the movie. No, I'm not claiming it is "canon" like the movie itself, but it is still on a higher level than random joe's personal opinion.
Star Trek doesn't have "tiers" of canonicity.
I get your point, but don't start with that strawman nonsense. I did *NOT* say there were different tiers of canon. I specifically said the comic was *NOT* canon. Therefore, your above statement in response to my post is a strawman. You are quoting my post, but responding to something I did *NOT* say, which is nonsense. That said, what I *DID* say was that an officially published story, overseen by one of the movie's writers, is on a higher level than some random joe's opinion.
Now, the question is "higher level" of what? Well, since I already said the comic was *NOT* canon, only someone with very poor reading comprehension would think I meant "canon". So the "higher level" I am referring to is what is accepted in the Trek community. If 2 people are "arguing" a point, and one person's reference is a published story while the other person's reference is...wait for it...their opinion...the published story trumps the opinion. No, that doesn't make it "canon", but it was still approved by the IP holder, while the opinion was not.
All of that said, I do understand that we all have our own little pet theories that make us feel good. That's fine. But only an incredibly naive person would think that their personal opinion is somehow equal to a story that the IP holder has officially approved to have the Trek name on it.
What I was saying, and someone with your incredible reading comprehension should have caught that, is that there is only two "levels". Canon and non-canon. I did not suggest you considered the comic canon but I said that anything not canon is equally not-canon in comparison to any fan theory in regards to the lore, licensed or not. Regardless of what two hypothetical people arguing may think. Not meaning one can not reference any of that and include it in the argument, but saying something is "right" or "official" because it's in a licensed source is simply false, which you did by dismissing Artan's take with the reason the novel/comic already explained it.
Also, you're not filling the gap protogoth left, no matter how often you refer to argumentation theory.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Oh really? Where in the show does it say Romulans don't convert refined decalithium into red matter and use it to create their singularities?
It's pretty hard to prove a negative; usually Occam's Razor is best used in such situations (even though this is all pretty much made up stuff from a made up sci fi show... )
My interpretation would be that red matter was never mentioned until JJ verse (as far as I know) and that if the Romulan's had access to it prior to this, they could/would have been able to use it as a superweapon in order to gain advantage, and given the way Romulans typically act - they would have most likely used Red Matter to increase thier sphere of influence and/or use it to protect resources during the Borg invasion (in which it is hinted that they never attended wolf 359 due to thier own Borg activity) and the Dominion War.
That's just my interpretation though - I have been known to be wrong
I said that anything not canon is equally not-canon in comparison to any fan theory in regards to the lore, licensed or not.
Let's be clear here: you are saying that 2 things, that are both *not* canon...are both *not* canon. Obvious statement is obvious, so thanks for stating that even though no one was disagreeing. That said, even if 2 things are both *not* canon, if one of those things was approved by the IP holder and the other is just some random joe's opinion, the story that was approved by the IP holder is going to have more credibility in a fan community. That is my point.
What makes red matter any different from the Transporter, replicator, warp drive, any cure devised by McCoy, Crusher, Bashir, the Doctor, and Phlox, and so on. Arguing on whether those things in Trek are more real than another is just plain trump.
(...)That said, the Khan mini-series is definitely the *official* explanation. Whether we like that or not is irrelevant to that fact.
And that statement is false, especially since you used it to dismiss another person's take on the matter. Not disagreeing with it but disregarding it as being "not on the same level" - when they objectively are on the same level. That was what you said, wether or not some people in the community confuse licensed works with official positions and/or consider it more credible is irrelevant. Just because hypothetical people may consider something false to be true it doesn't become true.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
What makes red matter any different from the Transporter, replicator, warp drive, any cure devised by McCoy, Crusher, Bashir, the Doctor, and Phlox, and so on. Arguing on whether those things in Trek are more real than another is just plain trump.
It's in the reboot movies so it makes it 1000% bad
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
(...)That said, the Khan mini-series is definitely the *official* explanation. Whether we like that or not is irrelevant to that fact.
And that statement is false, especially since you used it to dismiss another person's take on the matter. Not disagreeing with it but disregarding it as being "not on the same level" - when they objectively are on the same level. That was what you said, wether or not some people in the community confuse licensed works with official positions and/or consider it more credible is irrelevant. Just because hypothetical people may consider something false to be true it doesn't become true.
Unfortunately, you are wrong on every point. First, regarding the word "official"; there are 2 meanings. One is in regards to a *person*(such as a police officer) and the other is in regards to a *thing* that has been authorized or approved by a controlling organization. Therefore, by definition, the Khan comic is *official*.
Second, regarding the "dismissal". If you will notice, I actually said I had what is essentially the same pet theory. So any "dismissal" would be equally to myself and my own pet theory. No, I did not say anyone's pet theory was "right" or "wrong". What I *did* say was that the Khan comic, which was approved by the IP holder, is the "official" explanation. I did not say it was "canon".
Third, in regards to my use of the term "level"(which I actually meant in a figurative way, not literally). I already responded to this point, so here is a copy/paste:
That said, even if 2 things are both *not* canon, if one of those things was approved by the IP holder and the other is just some random joe's opinion, the story that was approved by the IP holder is going to have more credibility in a fan community. That is my point.
If you want to continue, that is fine. But I have to ask that you actually check the meaning of any words you want to disagree with, and also only reply to things I *actually* said, not create strawman scenarios.
All quantum singularities would be extremely short-lived, as Hawking radiation would tend to disperse them. On the other hand, were one to be created at the core of a planet, then a) it would take a long time before said planet was consumed, and b) the hole would then have sufficient mass to be effectively eternal. (The figures I read call for any quantum holes created in the Big Bang that mass about as much as the minor planet Ceres to be evaporating just about now; an Earth-mass one should last for another trillion years or so.) Since this is blatantly not the case with "red matter", one must assume some variety of gravitic instability, thus making a red-matter hole unsuitable for power generation aboard Romulan ships.
I think my issue is that when I first watched WoK I was a child, so didn't understand the technicalities of the ettiquette, so to my mind, it seemed wierd to be calling a woman 'Mister'. Now, I just find it irritating, because it wasn't congruous to the writing of TOS or TMP... As I said upthread, there were several things which irritate me with WoK, that was just one of them
TOS assumed that pretty much all sapient life was human-like - made it easier to have aliens when all the actors are human and CGI isn't even in the prototype stage yet. (There were the Horta, but there was only one living representative of the species at the time, and they were also bi-gendered - the egg-tender was a female.)
However, long before TWoK came out, many writers had hypothesized species with more than two genders (or, in some cases, less than two). How would one address, say, the fifth gender of Sulamid? Or, borrowing from another mythos, a Motie, which goes back and forth between male and female while retaining continuity of consciousness? (One would assume that one of the legendary Starfleet doctors had pulled a magic cure for Motie reproductive patterns out of his TRIBBLE as usual, of course - something more viable than the Crazy Eddie Worm.) And what of those species who have two genders, but are sufficiently non-hominid that one has trouble telling one gender from the other (as with Gorn, where they apparently follow the Terrestrial pattern of females being slightly larger than males)? And of course they'd have the same problem - those redundant fat packets on a female Human's chest might not be as obvious to a reptilian or insectile life form.
So a standard method of address must be adopted. Senior officers are to be referred to as "sir" unless they express a specific objection, and junior officers are "mister", regardless of apparent gender. It's slightly more elegant, in my opinion, than James White's solution in the Sector General stories, where all beings not of one's own species are to be referred to as "it" in order to avoid giving offense (a Cinrusskin looks like a cross between a spider and a butterfly - can you tell which is male and which female?)
Unfortunately, you are wrong on every point. First, regarding the word "official"; there are 2 meanings. One is in regards to a *person*(such as a police officer) and the other is in regards to a *thing* that has been authorized or approved by a controlling organization. Therefore, by definition, the Khan comic is *official*.
It's not the official 'explanation of events' as you put it, though. It's a licensed story but it doesn't fill any gaps left open in canon.
Second, regarding the "dismissal". If you will notice, I actually said I had what is essentially the same pet theory. So any "dismissal" would be equally to myself and my own pet theory. No, I did not say anyone's pet theory was "right" or "wrong". What I *did* say was that the Khan comic, which was approved by the IP holder, is the "official" explanation. I did not say it was "canon".
But it's not. Even if you "rank" your own theory 'lower' than the comic, you don't have to do it as one doesn't hold any more merit than the other, that's the whole point.
If you want to continue, that is fine. But I have to ask that you actually check the meaning of any words you want to disagree with, and also only reply to things I *actually* said, not create strawman scenarios.
The annoying part about all of this is that I don't intend to debate the issue, merely discuss it. And the points made are pretty clear, there's no need to be as pedantic as you are or belittle one's reading comprehension. Nothing you said actually changes anything that has been said but that is fine. There's no competition here.
Oh wow, @thegrandnagus1, I'm impressed. I think I'd have fun opposing you in a debate. LOL
It get's just a little bit annoying when one party wants to debate and the other merely wants to have a discussion.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Unfortunately, you are wrong on every point. First, regarding the word "official"; there are 2 meanings. One is in regards to a *person*(such as a police officer) and the other is in regards to a *thing* that has been authorized or approved by a controlling organization. Therefore, by definition, the Khan comic is *official*.
It's not the official 'explanation of events' as you put it, though. It's a licensed story but it doesn't fill any gaps left open in canon.
Wrong again. It *is* official. It *does* fill in gaps that were left open in canon. But it *itself* isn't canon, and I never said it was.
But it's not. Even if you "rank" your own theory 'lower' than the comic, you don't have to do it as one doesn't hold any more merit than the other, that's the whole point.
Paramount disagrees. They officially approved the comic, not my opinion. Therefore, the comic holds more merit with the IP holder than my opinion does.
Gonna be this way till another tid-bit about the new series hits the forums.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Wrong again. It *is* official. It *does* fill in gaps that were left open in canon. But it *itself* isn't canon, and I never said it was.
Please stop acting as if I claimed you said the comic is canon. That was never my point.
Paramount disagrees. They officially approved the comic, not my opinion. Therefore, the comic holds more merit with the IP holder than my opinion does.
It means Bad Robot (or whoever) paid their licensing fees. CBS/Paramount also 'officially approved' countless other games and books, yet none of those are explanations of events in lieu of canon (from a prime timeline perspective) and licensed works also more often than not openly contradict each other. They are just one possible version of events. like any 'pet theory' out there.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
No, not really. Because canonising them would confirm that John Harrison is Khan Noonien Singh and not another Augment by the name of Khan. I.e. my prefered theory which I prefer over S31 using plastic surgery.
All the other details from the comics are nice and all but not really any better or worse than the other fluff from the various novelisations and adaptations of the other films. Unlike 09, ID stood up as well or as worse as the other films, where the whole plot was open and accessible through the film. 09 (and Nemesis) had the huge problem of their main villains not making any sense. Past villains all had motives the audience could understand even if it was a stupid motive. Everything else can be filled in with a bit of imagination, which I don't mind doing in a film.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
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'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My "pet theory" was that Harrison was actually this guy:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Joachim
IMO, he actually favors Cumberbatch. So, theoretically, they could have woken him up, then he simply *claimed* to be Khan to try to gain control over the situation and try to release the real Khan.
That said, the Khan mini-series is definitely the *official* explanation. Whether we like that or not is irrelevant to that fact.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Kurtzman, Red Matter. I"ll take Meyer anyday.
original join date 2010
Member: Team Trekyards. Visit Trekyards today!
Not him specifically, but that's really what I think. And sure, the comic may be officially licenced, but it has as much bearing on the events of the film as our headcanon. All the comic is, is headcanon that generates money for Bad Robot (or whomever).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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No offense, but your personal opinion simply isn't on the same level as an officially published story, which was directly overseen by one of the writers of the movie. No, I'm not claiming it is "canon" like the movie itself, but it is still on a higher level than random joe's personal opinion.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Well, yes, but it still remains, it's only the writers headcanon they've managed to get money from.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Romulans use artificial singularities, yes. They do not, however, magically conjure them up from some red blob of goo.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Star Trek doesn't have "tiers" of canonicity. There's only canon and non-canon. "Officially licensed" doesn't mean anything regarding the canon lore, it just means it's fanfiction someone paid the licensing fees for. Novelizations or comic books can never be an "official" explanation, unless the IP holders make a statement that this is true.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with quality. A lot of people seem to assume "canon" means good and "non-canon" means bad, which is far from the truth. I personally know Trek canon but personally dismis a lot of what happened post TNG/DS9 because a lot of it is just stupid in my opinion. Also, I almost universally ignore the movies altogether (everything which has no original cast member, basically) because their plots make no sense and they are written to stand on their own. Still, when debating canon I know what I have to include in the debate
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Oh really? Where in the show does it say Romulans don't convert refined decalithium into red matter and use it to create their singularities?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Furthermore, if Romulans had that kind of access to red matter, they would A: be capable of using it as a superweapon and B: not have to wait for the Vulcans to make up their minds and let Spock try to save Romulus - Nero could save the planet himself, as could any Romulan starship captain in the entire galaxy, so long as they got there in time.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
I get your point, but don't start with that strawman nonsense. I did *NOT* say there were different tiers of canon. I specifically said the comic was *NOT* canon. Therefore, your above statement in response to my post is a strawman. You are quoting my post, but responding to something I did *NOT* say, which is nonsense. That said, what I *DID* say was that an officially published story, overseen by one of the movie's writers, is on a higher level than some random joe's opinion.
Now, the question is "higher level" of what? Well, since I already said the comic was *NOT* canon, only someone with very poor reading comprehension would think I meant "canon". So the "higher level" I am referring to is what is accepted in the Trek community. If 2 people are "arguing" a point, and one person's reference is a published story while the other person's reference is...wait for it...their opinion...the published story trumps the opinion. No, that doesn't make it "canon", but it was still approved by the IP holder, while the opinion was not.
All of that said, I do understand that we all have our own little pet theories that make us feel good. That's fine. But only an incredibly naive person would think that their personal opinion is somehow equal to a story that the IP holder has officially approved to have the Trek name on it.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
What I was saying, and someone with your incredible reading comprehension should have caught that, is that there is only two "levels". Canon and non-canon. I did not suggest you considered the comic canon but I said that anything not canon is equally not-canon in comparison to any fan theory in regards to the lore, licensed or not. Regardless of what two hypothetical people arguing may think. Not meaning one can not reference any of that and include it in the argument, but saying something is "right" or "official" because it's in a licensed source is simply false, which you did by dismissing Artan's take with the reason the novel/comic already explained it.
Also, you're not filling the gap protogoth left, no matter how often you refer to argumentation theory.
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It's pretty hard to prove a negative; usually Occam's Razor is best used in such situations (even though this is all pretty much made up stuff from a made up sci fi show...
My interpretation would be that red matter was never mentioned until JJ verse (as far as I know) and that if the Romulan's had access to it prior to this, they could/would have been able to use it as a superweapon in order to gain advantage, and given the way Romulans typically act - they would have most likely used Red Matter to increase thier sphere of influence and/or use it to protect resources during the Borg invasion (in which it is hinted that they never attended wolf 359 due to thier own Borg activity) and the Dominion War.
That's just my interpretation though - I have been known to be wrong
Let's be clear here: you are saying that 2 things, that are both *not* canon...are both *not* canon. Obvious statement is obvious, so thanks for stating that even though no one was disagreeing. That said, even if 2 things are both *not* canon, if one of those things was approved by the IP holder and the other is just some random joe's opinion, the story that was approved by the IP holder is going to have more credibility in a fan community. That is my point.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
And that statement is false, especially since you used it to dismiss another person's take on the matter. Not disagreeing with it but disregarding it as being "not on the same level" - when they objectively are on the same level. That was what you said, wether or not some people in the community confuse licensed works with official positions and/or consider it more credible is irrelevant. Just because hypothetical people may consider something false to be true it doesn't become true.
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It's in the reboot movies so it makes it 1000% bad
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Unfortunately, you are wrong on every point. First, regarding the word "official"; there are 2 meanings. One is in regards to a *person*(such as a police officer) and the other is in regards to a *thing* that has been authorized or approved by a controlling organization. Therefore, by definition, the Khan comic is *official*.
Second, regarding the "dismissal". If you will notice, I actually said I had what is essentially the same pet theory. So any "dismissal" would be equally to myself and my own pet theory. No, I did not say anyone's pet theory was "right" or "wrong". What I *did* say was that the Khan comic, which was approved by the IP holder, is the "official" explanation. I did not say it was "canon".
Third, in regards to my use of the term "level"(which I actually meant in a figurative way, not literally). I already responded to this point, so here is a copy/paste:
If you want to continue, that is fine. But I have to ask that you actually check the meaning of any words you want to disagree with, and also only reply to things I *actually* said, not create strawman scenarios.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
TOS assumed that pretty much all sapient life was human-like - made it easier to have aliens when all the actors are human and CGI isn't even in the prototype stage yet. (There were the Horta, but there was only one living representative of the species at the time, and they were also bi-gendered - the egg-tender was a female.)
However, long before TWoK came out, many writers had hypothesized species with more than two genders (or, in some cases, less than two). How would one address, say, the fifth gender of Sulamid? Or, borrowing from another mythos, a Motie, which goes back and forth between male and female while retaining continuity of consciousness? (One would assume that one of the legendary Starfleet doctors had pulled a magic cure for Motie reproductive patterns out of his TRIBBLE as usual, of course - something more viable than the Crazy Eddie Worm.) And what of those species who have two genders, but are sufficiently non-hominid that one has trouble telling one gender from the other (as with Gorn, where they apparently follow the Terrestrial pattern of females being slightly larger than males)? And of course they'd have the same problem - those redundant fat packets on a female Human's chest might not be as obvious to a reptilian or insectile life form.
So a standard method of address must be adopted. Senior officers are to be referred to as "sir" unless they express a specific objection, and junior officers are "mister", regardless of apparent gender. It's slightly more elegant, in my opinion, than James White's solution in the Sector General stories, where all beings not of one's own species are to be referred to as "it" in order to avoid giving offense (a Cinrusskin looks like a cross between a spider and a butterfly - can you tell which is male and which female?)
Thanks. TBH, this is all entertainment to me. Hopefully no one takes a "debate" on a video game message board too seriously
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
It's not the official 'explanation of events' as you put it, though. It's a licensed story but it doesn't fill any gaps left open in canon.
But it's not. Even if you "rank" your own theory 'lower' than the comic, you don't have to do it as one doesn't hold any more merit than the other, that's the whole point.
The annoying part about all of this is that I don't intend to debate the issue, merely discuss it. And the points made are pretty clear, there's no need to be as pedantic as you are or belittle one's reading comprehension. Nothing you said actually changes anything that has been said but that is fine. There's no competition here.
It get's just a little bit annoying when one party wants to debate and the other merely wants to have a discussion.
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Wrong again. It *is* official. It *does* fill in gaps that were left open in canon. But it *itself* isn't canon, and I never said it was.
Paramount disagrees. They officially approved the comic, not my opinion. Therefore, the comic holds more merit with the IP holder than my opinion does.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Please stop acting as if I claimed you said the comic is canon. That was never my point.
It means Bad Robot (or whoever) paid their licensing fees. CBS/Paramount also 'officially approved' countless other games and books, yet none of those are explanations of events in lieu of canon (from a prime timeline perspective) and licensed works also more often than not openly contradict each other. They are just one possible version of events. like any 'pet theory' out there.
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