Marcus, Saavik was called "mister" because in a military unit, one needs a way to address junior officers in a fashion that lets them know they're being chewed out, without being overt about it
Aaaaahhhh... That makes a bit more sense, although I have to admit, most of the instances, didn't seem like times when Saavik need be spoken to in a disciplinary manner...
No, it doesn't make sense.
As you say Mr Sulu, Mr Spock, Mr Chekov where used very frequently and not in a disparaging tone.
Picard called Data 'Mister Data' all the time, and Worf, 'Mister Worf' again not in a disparaging tone.
So I don't agree that Saavik was addressed in that manner for any other reason than it being a standard starfleet protocol and/or a captains 'pet' name.
Nah the best would be an entirely new timeline not connected to either the current Paramount films or the previous series. The existence of the TNG episode Parallels is all the justification they need that other timelines exist in a "Trek Multiverse", even setting aside the use of the Quantum Reality theory in 2009. This would eliminate any fear of canon contradictions and permit the show to be set in any time period.
In which case, why bother to even call it 'Star Trek'? Why not just come up with a completely new series to attract viewers, rather than relying on the existing fandom, if the intent is to not include the elements which said fandom are fans of? Doing a 'third timeline' would be nothing more than a hollow use of the name, and without including canon elements, would just be pi55ing on the history of the franchise it is riding on the coat-tails of by using the name 'Star Trek'...
Almost opposite reaction for me. I'm not a member of the "cult of holy twok" and I really hate that Meyer used ideas that were known to be scientifically impossible as major plot points and I fear with him on the new show that it will be more of the same.
It is called science fiction... That it be plausible or possible, is not a true criteria of the genre... The physical laws within the 'Verse of the writer's creation, relies on nothing but the author's intent for their story... They write to tell the story they have to tell because they want to tell it, not to have it picked apart by pedantic poindexters to be all "Nyah, that's not possible..." about it...
As for 'cult of TWOK, as films go, I can take or leave it, and am actually more inclined to 'leave it', as I far prefer the Motion(less) Picture and Search for Spock... Yes, there are somethings I like about WoK, but there are significantly more things which I dislike. Kirstie Alley as Saavik... Kirk continually addressing Saavik as 'Mister' to the extent that it is ludicrously notable... Khan being portrayed as some Ultimate Evil... Chekov... Stuff which makes me simply not enjoy it. But, I have more confidence in Meyer than I do in Berman or Braga, or JJ and his troupe of flying monkeys...
Yes yes of course it's fiction, but, if you go around various Trek sites one of the things you will see continuously brought up as a complaint about the reboot films compared to the older films is that supposedly they have less scientific accuracy. Yet when you actually did into the facts of the matter both are on about the same level in terms of accuracy. TWOK in particular is frequently cited by these people as an example of writing with scientific accuracy when in fact it is one of the worst of the older films in that respect. Interesting that you mention liking TSFS more as I share that sentiment.
With regard the levels of scientific accuracy issue between JJTrek and other Trek, I would think that that's partly due to a real mangling of concepts such as cold fusion. When combined with other elements of the writing, such as the dressing down Pine gives Kirk and Spock, it's comes across as them 'writing stuff that sounds cool', rather than any true thought behind any of it, such as the DS-9 writing staff did when they considered a transporter-achieved placental transplant, so it just comes across (to me at least) sloppy writing in general. And also, a case of people simply not liking them, and trying to have something to back up their opinion beyond "I don't like it..." But my main point, was that there's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief required when dealing with works of fiction, and being too literal, just sucks the fun out of it... Take Jack and the Beanstalk, for example... I don't need to know how or why the Magic Beans work, and it's not really plot relevent how they work, just that they do work, so Jack can go climbing (clearly to an altitude where breathing equipment would be required ) But hey, Magic Beans and Adventures, and that's, for want of a better term, 'good enough'
For myself, those things I mentioned with WoK spoil the film enough for me to even notice if the basic science of the film doesn't hold up... As for TSFS, I consider it a superior film in pretty much every way, and even the McGuffin of 'protomatter' explains some of the other science aspects which would otherwise be stretching suspension of disbelief a bit too far, but also, it introduced:
Also, with regards the multiverse concept, as mentioned above, without the existing canon, it simply wouldn't be Star Trek, but a shallow use of the IP. An example of this not working well, would be the most recent Fantastic Four. People were predicting it to be a failure before it was even released, and it's SJW supporters tried shouting them down with lazy accusations of racism, but when it was released, it was an unmitigated disaster... Had they just done a movie with some Supers in it, it might have been more favorably received, but because they were calling it 'Fantastic Four', people had a reasonable set of expectations, and the same goes for Trek... While the canon supports multiple quantum realities, the expectations existing fans have would still be for certain consistencies, which, if they're not present, as before, IMHO, it might just as well be any 'sci-fi show', rather than trying to ride the coat-tails of an established franchise to import a fanbase, which ultimately, I think would be more dignified...
I seriously doubt anyone or anything could have saved FF. It was just a mess of disjointed pieces of different story ideas loosely hammered together and further hampered by studio mandates and reshoots insisted on when Fox and Trask went to war. I will say I disagree that the writing of the previous incarnations of the Trek franchise was any deeper, or better done than the newer films in general (Space hippies, space africans, anyone?) though of course there are true standouts. I have mentioned before that I am a fan of the entire Trek franchise without exception, and that I have my complaints about the entire franchise without exception as well. Whether that's the stupidity of Kirk and his crew bombarding a planet with "harmless" UV in TOS, Sisko's punishment free violation of weapons ban treaties in DS9, the embarrassingly bad writing in early TNG (much of it insisted on by Gene's lawyer), the constant retcons of Seven's history in Voyager, or Archer almost starting a war over his flee-ridden mutt, etc.
For sure, the presentation they wanted to go with, as you say, was beyond salvage. However, I'll offer this as another example... 50 Shades of Grey. Originally written as Twilight fanfiction, when that became problematic, she tweaked names and settings, and re-branded it. But. That made it something different, and there's no guarantee of cross-polination of the fanbases... A 3rd reality which had none of the existing touchstones beyond settings/species, etc, would just be a hollow use of the IP and title, and which could just as easily be doneby coming up with an entirely new concept, and just floated as something totally new. Defiance, for example, stood completely alone, and was fantastic...
Marcus, Saavik was called "mister" because in a military unit, one needs a way to address junior officers in a fashion that lets them know they're being chewed out, without being overt about it
Aaaaahhhh... That makes a bit more sense, although I have to admit, most of the instances, didn't seem like times when Saavik need be spoken to in a disciplinary manner...
No, it doesn't make sense.
As you say Mr Sulu, Mr Spock, Mr Chekov where used very frequently and not in a disparaging tone.
Picard called Data 'Mister Data' all the time, and Worf, 'Mister Worf' again not in a disparaging tone.
So I don't agree that Saavik was addressed in that manner for any other reason than it being a standard starfleet protocol and/or a captains 'pet' name.
Think Jonsills has that a bit wrong.
I was meaning that jonsill's explanation that it is a manner of dressing someone down without dressing them down made sense in so much as that is the protocol, I still don't think that the application of it in WoK actually fitted said explanation, for those afforementioned reasons
My own personal little pie-in-the-sky pipe-dream scenario? Prime Universe 2409, the STO story-line (with modifications, of course, because what makes sense in a game doesn't necessarily make sense on TV... and I don't want another cadet-becomes-captain ex machine type scenario), with Captain Handome Phaser Guy leading the crew of the U.S.S. Excalibur. The Legacy of Romulus story would be an early season 1 two-part "Broken Arrow"-esque episode, telling the story about how Subcommander Tovan Khev became the 1st Officer of the Excalibur.
My own personal little pie-in-the-sky pipe-dream scenario? Prime Universe 2409, the STO story-line (with modifications, of course, because what makes sense in a game doesn't necessarily make sense on TV... and I don't want another cadet-becomes-captain ex machine type scenario), with Captain Handome Phaser Guy leading the crew of the U.S.S. Excalibur. The Legacy of Romulus story would be an early season 1 two-part "Broken Arrow"-esque episode, telling the story about how Subcommander Tovan Khev became the 1st Officer of the Excalibur.
Honestly, I am fine with STO being its own little corner of the Star Trek world, and not having the new series be at all tied to game. As you said, what works in a game doesn't necessarily work in a TV series (or actually I think a TV series is less restrictive then a game).
Oh I still want and hope it is in prime universe, but I would be fine if it made STO its own universe and not necessarily prime universe. That said, with who they have added on, including Rod Roddenberry, I am hopeful that what we eventually do get will be good. Still, I am going to wait until we get more information then who the EPs are before I commit to anything for this series.
Marcus, Saavik was called "mister" because in a military unit, one needs a way to address junior officers in a fashion that lets them know they're being chewed out, without being overt about it (there are regs about that sort of thing), and since Starfleet may include species with multiple genders, only one gender, or some other arrangement, and since the preferences of address aren't necessarily obvious to other species, the idea is that they've adopted "mister" as the generic reference. (In the real-life military, a female junior officer in such a situation may be addressed as "miss", but what form of address would you used for, for instance, the quad-gendered Andorians?
As for the delay of the new series to avoid confusion, that's obviously not to avoid confusion on the part of the old fans - but they can't exactly keep a new series running just on the "old fans" demographic, now can they? They have to rope in whole new fans, and they can't do that if folks are staring at the screen, going, "But this doesn't look anything like the movie! And where's Kirk?"
Aaaaahhhh... That makes a bit more sense, although I have to admit, most of the instances, didn't seem like times when Saavik need be spoken to in a disciplinary manner...
I know Mad Kathy would occasionally say "Miss Torres," but mostly, I was thinking that Kirk frequently referred to Sulu, Scotty, Chekov etc as 'Mister' (or Mister Worf) without the disciplinary tone, and that he never said "Mister Uhura," I think mostly I just found it incongruous, and used enough to be beyond reasonably noticeable... But with regards Andorians, writing has always said that they accept binary pronouns for ease of integration (or, to break my own rule of using headcanon as a point, why K'm'rn adopted the name 'Cameron', or I'K'rR'h's friends call her 'Cara', for ease of integration)
I think some folks have forgotten that Saavik was Spock's Protégé and Kirk was pushing her harder because of this.
And it was pretty obvious after the failed Kobayashi Maru test, that he was enjoying her discomfiture.
It also ticked him (Kirk) off to no end (at himself), when it turned out she was right about the protocols after Khan attacked.
Thus his seemingly brusque tone toward her that eventually softened as the story went on.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Nah the best would be an entirely new timeline not connected to either the current Paramount films or the previous series. The existence of the TNG episode Parallels is all the justification they need that other timelines exist in a "Trek Multiverse", even setting aside the use of the Quantum Reality theory in 2009. This would eliminate any fear of canon contradictions and permit the show to be set in any time period.
In which case, why bother to even call it 'Star Trek'? Why not just come up with a completely new series to attract viewers, rather than relying on the existing fandom, if the intent is to not include the elements which said fandom are fans of? Doing a 'third timeline' would be nothing more than a hollow use of the name, and without including canon elements, would just be pi55ing on the history of the franchise it is riding on the coat-tails of by using the name 'Star Trek'...
Almost opposite reaction for me. I'm not a member of the "cult of holy twok" and I really hate that Meyer used ideas that were known to be scientifically impossible as major plot points and I fear with him on the new show that it will be more of the same.
It is called science fiction... That it be plausible or possible, is not a true criteria of the genre... The physical laws within the 'Verse of the writer's creation, relies on nothing but the author's intent for their story... They write to tell the story they have to tell because they want to tell it, not to have it picked apart by pedantic poindexters to be all "Nyah, that's not possible..." about it...
As for 'cult of TWOK, as films go, I can take or leave it, and am actually more inclined to 'leave it', as I far prefer the Motion(less) Picture and Search for Spock... Yes, there are somethings I like about WoK, but there are significantly more things which I dislike. Kirstie Alley as Saavik... Kirk continually addressing Saavik as 'Mister' to the extent that it is ludicrously notable... Khan being portrayed as some Ultimate Evil... Chekov... Stuff which makes me simply not enjoy it. But, I have more confidence in Meyer than I do in Berman or Braga, or JJ and his troupe of flying monkeys...
Yes yes of course it's fiction, but, if you go around various Trek sites one of the things you will see continuously brought up as a complaint about the reboot films compared to the older films is that supposedly they have less scientific accuracy. Yet when you actually did into the facts of the matter both are on about the same level in terms of accuracy. TWOK in particular is frequently cited by these people as an example of writing with scientific accuracy when in fact it is one of the worst of the older films in that respect. Interesting that you mention liking TSFS more as I share that sentiment.
With regard the levels of scientific accuracy issue between JJTrek and other Trek, I would think that that's partly due to a real mangling of concepts such as cold fusion. When combined with other elements of the writing, such as the dressing down Pine gives Kirk and Spock, it's comes across as them 'writing stuff that sounds cool', rather than any true thought behind any of it, such as the DS-9 writing staff did when they considered a transporter-achieved placental transplant, so it just comes across (to me at least) sloppy writing in general. And also, a case of people simply not liking them, and trying to have something to back up their opinion beyond "I don't like it..." But my main point, was that there's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief required when dealing with works of fiction, and being too literal, just sucks the fun out of it... Take Jack and the Beanstalk, for example... I don't need to know how or why the Magic Beans work, and it's not really plot relevent how they work, just that they do work, so Jack can go climbing (clearly to an altitude where breathing equipment would be required ) But hey, Magic Beans and Adventures, and that's, for want of a better term, 'good enough'
For myself, those things I mentioned with WoK spoil the film enough for me to even notice if the basic science of the film doesn't hold up... As for TSFS, I consider it a superior film in pretty much every way, and even the McGuffin of 'protomatter' explains some of the other science aspects which would otherwise be stretching suspension of disbelief a bit too far, but also, it introduced:
Also, with regards the multiverse concept, as mentioned above, without the existing canon, it simply wouldn't be Star Trek, but a shallow use of the IP. An example of this not working well, would be the most recent Fantastic Four. People were predicting it to be a failure before it was even released, and it's SJW supporters tried shouting them down with lazy accusations of racism, but when it was released, it was an unmitigated disaster... Had they just done a movie with some Supers in it, it might have been more favorably received, but because they were calling it 'Fantastic Four', people had a reasonable set of expectations, and the same goes for Trek... While the canon supports multiple quantum realities, the expectations existing fans have would still be for certain consistencies, which, if they're not present, as before, IMHO, it might just as well be any 'sci-fi show', rather than trying to ride the coat-tails of an established franchise to import a fanbase, which ultimately, I think would be more dignified...
I seriously doubt anyone or anything could have saved FF. It was just a mess of disjointed pieces of different story ideas loosely hammered together and further hampered by studio mandates and reshoots insisted on when Fox and Trask went to war. I will say I disagree that the writing of the previous incarnations of the Trek franchise was any deeper, or better done than the newer films in general (Space hippies, space africans, anyone?) though of course there are true standouts. I have mentioned before that I am a fan of the entire Trek franchise without exception, and that I have my complaints about the entire franchise without exception as well. Whether that's the stupidity of Kirk and his crew bombarding a planet with "harmless" UV in TOS, Sisko's punishment free violation of weapons ban treaties in DS9, the embarrassingly bad writing in early TNG (much of it insisted on by Gene's lawyer), the constant retcons of Seven's history in Voyager, or Archer almost starting a war over his flee-ridden mutt, etc.
Why is the possibility of UV light being harmful to an ALIEN LIFEFORM so difficult to accept?
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
(...)
As far as STO goes, I'm not worried about a new TV show contradicting it. Anyone who ever though STO was canon was deluding themselves. If/when a new show/movie set anywhere near STO's time period happens, the writers definitely aren't going to be calling Cryptic for story notes. They are going to do what they want, as they should.
Did people ever honestly believe that? STO is just a game, like the dozens of other games out there and games are never canon. It's that simple.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
(...)
As far as STO goes, I'm not worried about a new TV show contradicting it. Anyone who ever though STO was canon was deluding themselves. If/when a new show/movie set anywhere near STO's time period happens, the writers definitely aren't going to be calling Cryptic for story notes. They are going to do what they want, as they should.
Did people ever honestly believe that? STO is just a game, like the dozens of other games out there and games are never canon. It's that simple.
I guess it more ppl hoping than actually believing that. Considering the constantly expanded upon MMO RPG nature of STO its player base is far more involved over a far longer longer time than any (or most) other Star Trek themed games.
Ppl like what they know and have getting used to and even more so after spending years on "knowing" something. Having that "new punk" suddenly appear to say "What you know is now wrong, you cant do anything against it, suck it up" does not sit well with most ppl; no matter how clear it might have been from the very beginning that the TV is the alpha and how reasonable someone is; the "inner caveman" feels threatened
I personally would enjoy the new show having some respectful nods to some of STOs storys. I actually can imagine both the show and STO benefitting from each other by trying to complement each other. I do not expect it; I do not demand it.
(...)
I personally would enjoy the new show having some respectful nods to some of STOs storys. I actually can imagine both the show and STO benefitting from each other by trying to complement each other. I do not expect it; I do not demand it.
I personally don't think that would be a wise move. STOs storylines serve the one and only purpose to deliver us tons of trash mobs to shoot, it's in the games' nature. And it shows. I personally would prefer to not see those escapades in the "prime tv" universe. If they decide to do that it's fine of course, but I'd be against it.
I would be thrilled to see STOs type-6 refit starships (the canon variants) in the new show, though.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Marcus, Saavik was called "mister" because in a military unit, one needs a way to address junior officers in a fashion that lets them know they're being chewed out, without being overt about it (there are regs about that sort of thing), and since Starfleet may include species with multiple genders, only one gender, or some other arrangement, and since the preferences of address aren't necessarily obvious to other species, the idea is that they've adopted "mister" as the generic reference. (In the real-life military, a female junior officer in such a situation may be addressed as "miss", but what form of address would you used for, for instance, the quad-gendered Andorians?
As for the delay of the new series to avoid confusion, that's obviously not to avoid confusion on the part of the old fans - but they can't exactly keep a new series running just on the "old fans" demographic, now can they? They have to rope in whole new fans, and they can't do that if folks are staring at the screen, going, "But this doesn't look anything like the movie! And where's Kirk?"
Aaaaahhhh... That makes a bit more sense, although I have to admit, most of the instances, didn't seem like times when Saavik need be spoken to in a disciplinary manner...
I know Mad Kathy would occasionally say "Miss Torres," but mostly, I was thinking that Kirk frequently referred to Sulu, Scotty, Chekov etc as 'Mister' (or Mister Worf) without the disciplinary tone, and that he never said "Mister Uhura," I think mostly I just found it incongruous, and used enough to be beyond reasonably noticeable... But with regards Andorians, writing has always said that they accept binary pronouns for ease of integration (or, to break my own rule of using headcanon as a point, why K'm'rn adopted the name 'Cameron', or I'K'rR'h's friends call her 'Cara', for ease of integration)
I think some folks have forgotten that Saavik was Spock's Protégé and Kirk was pushing her harder because of this.
And it was pretty obvious after the failed Kobayashi Maru test, that he was enjoying her discomfiture.
It also ticked him (Kirk) off to no end (at himself), when it turned out she was right about the protocols after Khan attacked.
Thus his seemingly brusque tone toward her that eventually softened as the story went on.
Nor really, I just took it as clumsy writing drawing unnecessary attention to a new character... In ToS, Kirk never addressed Uhura as Mister, but always by rank, and I don't recall him addressing Ilia or Valeris as Mister either... I know, in the Grand Scheme of things, it's nothing major, but it's just something that always irritated me. Valeris irritated me more, especially in her dynamic with Spock, which came across as something more than 'Mentorly Sponsorship' on Spock's part (the super-creepy scene where he mixes the drink and makes her chug it, for example)
(...)
I personally would enjoy the new show having some respectful nods to some of STOs storys. I actually can imagine both the show and STO benefitting from each other by trying to complement each other. I do not expect it; I do not demand it.
I personally don't think that would be a wise move. STOs storylines serve the one and only purpose to deliver us tons of trash mobs to shoot, it's in the games' nature. And it shows. I personally would prefer to not see those escapades in the "prime tv" universe. If they decide to do that it's fine of course, but I'd be against it.
I would be thrilled to see STOs type-6 refit starships (the canon variants) in the new show, though.
What? Nothing beats the canon Starfleet captain in the TV show having trophies of his thousands personal kill of Klingons and Undine (severed body part IIRC) in his ready room!
I was thinking more in a general wide spectrum, not the violent MMO details and even less TV versions of missions we play. IMO the way Cryptic salvaged the mess that JJA left of the Romulans is something noteworthy. Not every detail as we see & read in the game, but it could be used and is spot on in the realm of Star Trek possibility.
Also some ships; would be thrilled to see an Oddy in the series (others probably horrified, I know I know ).
(...)
As far as STO goes, I'm not worried about a new TV show contradicting it. Anyone who ever though STO was canon was deluding themselves. If/when a new show/movie set anywhere near STO's time period happens, the writers definitely aren't going to be calling Cryptic for story notes. They are going to do what they want, as they should.
Did people ever honestly believe that? STO is just a game, like the dozens of other games out there and games are never canon. It's that simple.
I know, but when they're Officially Licensed, I personally believe they're worthy of acknowledgement, as they are an 'official presentation'
(...)
I know, but when they're Officially Licensed, I personally believe they're worthy of acknowledgement, as they are an 'official presentation'
But every game is "officially licensed", as well as every novel that is sold. It just means someone paid the licensing fee, however games have never been acknowledged in canon and I think there were also never direct references to novels. And if so its purely based on the writer's/producer's sympathy with the work in question. So they could very well decide to reference STO but it has nothing to do with it being official.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It wouldn't be the first time part of a licensed product became on-screen canon after-the-fact. Sulu and Uhura's first names, for example, are from written stories. One, a licensed Pocket Book novel; the other, unless I'm misremembering, originally came from an popular fan-fic piece. Franz Joseph's stuff was always a favorite of mine.
(...)
I know, but when they're Officially Licensed, I personally believe they're worthy of acknowledgement, as they are an 'official presentation'
But every game is "officially licensed", as well as every novel that is sold. It just means someone paid the licensing fee, however games have never been acknowledged in canon and I think there were also never direct references to novels. And if so its purely based on the writer's/producer's sympathy with the work in question. So they could very well decide to reference STO but it has nothing to do with it being official.
I know, I guess I just feel that some elements of some of the games and some of the novels deserves a bit of on-screen acknowledgement, where as equally, some of the stuff in some of the novels, is absolute TRIBBLE, and probably best ignored
She was referred to as Mister Saavik because Meyer was drawing heavily from the Horatio Hornblower books. In the books everyone is referred to as Mister.
Also Spock called her Mister a few times in WOK. Most notably when he has her take the Conn.
"Take her out, Mister Saavik."
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
In general military parlance, a subordinate should always refer to a superior by Rank, Rank + Last name, Professional Title, Title + Last Name, or Sir/Ma'am. A superior to subordinate is allowed more flexibility by using just Last Name or, in informal occasions, first name. Peers are offered the greatest flexibility in using just first name on a regular basis.
Although, in recent years, this practice has been frowned upon in the Air Force. We were encouraged to use Rank + Last name universally, regardless of whom we were speaking to. I made a habit of using Rank + Last name, myself, as a matter of principle. I expected my subordinates to call me Sergeant--the least I could do was provide them with the same level of respect... (And you'd better believe that if one of my Airmen called me informally, I'd snatch them up with a healthy dose of wall-to-wall counseling!)
The subordinate "Mister" is a naval tradition that (as far as the US military is concerned) does not exist for the other branches. Blurring the gender lines, neutering make pronouns, does seem to be a Trek-specific modification to the old Naval tradition. In the Voyager pilot, Janeway tells Kim that, "Starfleet protocol aside, I've never been comfortable being called 'sir'."
In Starfleet, it was also used sometimes in lieu of a more formal rank. This was generally done only when a superior officer addressed a subordinate, but it could also be used by subordinate-ranked individuals with superior officers when there was an established social relationship as well. (TOS: "The Cage")
Occasionally, women were referred to as "mister":
In 2266, Robert Tomlinson referred to Angela Martine jokingly as "Mister" after she did the same to him. (TOS: "Balance of Terror")
In 2285, Lieutenant Saavik was addressed as "Mister" by Admiral Kirk and Captain Spock. (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan)
A Starfleet captain was not generally referred to as "mister." Jean-Luc Picard did not mind being mistakenly called "Mister Picard" by Professor Richard Galen in 2368. (TNG: "The Chase") Captain Willard Decker was referred to as "Mister Decker" after being temporarily reduced in rank to commander in the 2270s. (Star Trek: The Motion Picture)
These are the observations we have in canon.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
(...)
I know, but when they're Officially Licensed, I personally believe they're worthy of acknowledgement, as they are an 'official presentation'
But every game is "officially licensed", as well as every novel that is sold. It just means someone paid the licensing fee, however games have never been acknowledged in canon and I think there were also never direct references to novels. And if so its purely based on the writer's/producer's sympathy with the work in question. So they could very well decide to reference STO but it has nothing to do with it being official.
Well the Star Trek game on the xbox360 was intended as a direct tie-in to STID and it is referenced on screen when McCoy mentions to Marcus that he performed a cesarean on a pregnant Gorn. Of course that's Paramount, but both the game and the film are licensed by CBS.
However that doesn't make the game canon. It just means McCoy refers to an unseen noodle incident that bears a resemblance to the game.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
(...)
I know, but when they're Officially Licensed, I personally believe they're worthy of acknowledgement, as they are an 'official presentation'
But every game is "officially licensed", as well as every novel that is sold. It just means someone paid the licensing fee, however games have never been acknowledged in canon and I think there were also never direct references to novels. And if so its purely based on the writer's/producer's sympathy with the work in question. So they could very well decide to reference STO but it has nothing to do with it being official.
Well the Star Trek game on the xbox360 was intended as a direct tie-in to STID and it is referenced on screen when McCoy mentions to Marcus that he performed a cesarean on a pregnant Gorn. Of course that's Paramount, but both the game and the film are licensed by CBS.
However that doesn't make the game canon. It just means McCoy refers to an unseen noodle incident that bears a resemblance to the game.
Unfortunately, the same could be said of the comics... the deeper story bits about Nero, Spock, Captain Data, Khan, and the like... unless someone at CBS and/or Paramount come out and say "They are canon," it's soft canon at best.
The Star Wars universe, for an example, has clearly defined what extended universe stuff is considered canon. It would be nice if Trek did something similar... especially taking an eraser to that FUGLY station that has appropriated the name "Deep Space 9" in the novels.
Unfortunately, the same could be said of the comics... the deeper story bits about Nero, Spock, Captain Data, Khan, and the like... unless someone at CBS and/or Paramount come out and say "They are canon," it's soft canon at best.
'Countdown' and 'Nero' are the single pieces of ST EU I would want canonising due to the lack of depth in 09.
I still don't get where this concept of hard and soft canon comes from. There's canon (which is the films and TV shows) and non-canon (any licenced ST work) and fanfiction (any non-licenced ST work). SW had a tiered system whereby pieces of the EU were more canonical than others. ST dosen't; all non TV or Film works are equally non-canon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
(...)
I know, but when they're Officially Licensed, I personally believe they're worthy of acknowledgement, as they are an 'official presentation'
But every game is "officially licensed", as well as every novel that is sold. It just means someone paid the licensing fee, however games have never been acknowledged in canon and I think there were also never direct references to novels. And if so its purely based on the writer's/producer's sympathy with the work in question. So they could very well decide to reference STO but it has nothing to do with it being official.
Well the Star Trek game on the xbox360 was intended as a direct tie-in to STID and it is referenced on screen when McCoy mentions to Marcus that he performed a cesarean on a pregnant Gorn. Of course that's Paramount, but both the game and the film are licensed by CBS.
However that doesn't make the game canon. It just means McCoy refers to an unseen noodle incident that bears a resemblance to the game.
Unfortunately, the same could be said of the comics... the deeper story bits about Nero, Spock, Captain Data, Khan, and the like... unless someone at CBS and/or Paramount come out and say "They are canon," it's soft canon at best.
The Star Wars universe, for an example, has clearly defined what extended universe stuff is considered canon. It would be nice if Trek did something similar... especially taking an eraser to that FUGLY station that has appropriated the name "Deep Space 9" in the novels.
As far as I know, CBS has. All Live Action TV series, Movies (minus the Reboots), and I believe now the Animated series are considered canon. ANYTHING else is, as you put it, considered soft canon at best. Writers are free to use or disregard whatever they so desire.
"Officially Licensed" means nothing. NOTHING made within the Star Trek franchise, no game, novel, comic, etc. is not licensed. You can not make anything Star Trek without CBS's permission (ignoring the whole paramount/CBS nonsense). But in most cases individual games or novels are free to use or not use whatever they feel (with permission) like as far as what they feel is Star Trek lore.
To my understanding, Canon is canon. Anything seen or heard on-screen is canon, including TAS and reboots (although, alternate-universe stuff is irrelevant to the Prime except for the first 2 minutes of Trek09 & Spock's flashback narrative, it's still canon to the franchise as a whole).
Hard vs soft only defines how it became canon. Hard canon, we watched on screen or heard in dialog. Soft canon was only referenced. The Earth-Romulan war is canon. It happened. It's Trek. It was referenced multiple times on-screen. However, the books describing the details and events of the war are only soft canon, because we didn't watch the war take place on TV.
Licensed products are non-canon UNLESS they're referenced as soft-canon--and then only the specific details referenced become canon. The Ptolemy, Hermes, and Saladin class starships are from a licensed book, Franz Joseph's Star Fleet Technical Manual. Those ships were seen on-screen (in a display graphic). The ships themselves are (soft) canon, but the rest of the book is non-canon.
Fanon is "widely excepted" non-canon (whether licensed or not), that often becomes canon after-the-fact: Sulu and Uhura's first names; Kirk's middle name; the explanation for the missing Klingon ridges; the location of the Federation President's compound in France; the existence of a Romulan Empress; the Klingon language. All of these things were non-canon... some from Licensed books, others from unlicensed, unofficial, popular fanfic, until they were written into a movie or episode well after they had been initially created as non-canon.
The Star Trek Star Charts is ***NOT*** canon!!!!!!... not to mention completely, and utterly, wrong, Wrong, WRONG! It contradicts so many canon facts that it's not funny! The major Trek powers are in the ALPHA quadrant, not the Beta. Federation and Romulan space have some territories extending into the Beta quadrant. The Romulans have some territories extending into the Delta, as well. The Klingons do not have any Beta quadrant holdings. Cardassian space shares a border with Klingon space. The Romulans had to travel through Klingon space to reach DS9 during the Dominion war.
She was referred to as Mister Saavik because Meyer was drawing heavily from the Horatio Hornblower books. In the books everyone is referred to as Mister.
Also Spock called her Mister a few times in WOK. Most notably when he has her take the Conn.
"Take her out, Mister Saavik."
Absolutely. That doesn't make any less irritating to me, and as highlighted above, as incongruous to previous Trek-Speak, because neither Uhura or Ilia (or any other female officer that I recal) was ever addressed as Mister... I can understand why it was done, but that doesn't mean I have to like it
In general military parlance, a subordinate should always refer to a superior by Rank, Rank + Last name, Professional Title, Title + Last Name, or Sir/Ma'am. A superior to subordinate is allowed more flexibility by using just Last Name or, in informal occasions, first name. Peers are offered the greatest flexibility in using just first name on a regular basis.
Although, in recent years, this practice has been frowned upon in the Air Force. We were encouraged to use Rank + Last name universally, regardless of whom we were speaking to. I made a habit of using Rank + Last name, myself, as a matter of principle. I expected my subordinates to call me Sergeant--the least I could do was provide them with the same level of respect... (And you'd better believe that if one of my Airmen called me informally, I'd snatch them up with a healthy dose of wall-to-wall counseling!)
The subordinate "Mister" is a naval tradition that (as far as the US military is concerned) does not exist for the other branches. Blurring the gender lines, neutering make pronouns, does seem to be a Trek-specific modification to the old Naval tradition. In the Voyager pilot, Janeway tells Kim that, "Starfleet protocol aside, I've never been comfortable being called 'sir'."
I think my issue is that when I first watched WoK I was a child, so didn't understand the technicalities of the ettiquette, so to my mind, it seemed wierd to be calling a woman 'Mister'. Now, I just find it irritating, because it wasn't congruous to the writing of TOS or TMP... As I said upthread, there were several things which irritate me with WoK, that was just one of them
Comments
No, it doesn't make sense.
As you say Mr Sulu, Mr Spock, Mr Chekov where used very frequently and not in a disparaging tone.
Picard called Data 'Mister Data' all the time, and Worf, 'Mister Worf' again not in a disparaging tone.
So I don't agree that Saavik was addressed in that manner for any other reason than it being a standard starfleet protocol and/or a captains 'pet' name.
Think Jonsills has that a bit wrong.
Honestly, I am fine with STO being its own little corner of the Star Trek world, and not having the new series be at all tied to game. As you said, what works in a game doesn't necessarily work in a TV series (or actually I think a TV series is less restrictive then a game).
Oh I still want and hope it is in prime universe, but I would be fine if it made STO its own universe and not necessarily prime universe. That said, with who they have added on, including Rod Roddenberry, I am hopeful that what we eventually do get will be good. Still, I am going to wait until we get more information then who the EPs are before I commit to anything for this series.
I think some folks have forgotten that Saavik was Spock's Protégé and Kirk was pushing her harder because of this.
And it was pretty obvious after the failed Kobayashi Maru test, that he was enjoying her discomfiture.
It also ticked him (Kirk) off to no end (at himself), when it turned out she was right about the protocols after Khan attacked.
Thus his seemingly brusque tone toward her that eventually softened as the story went on.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Why is the possibility of UV light being harmful to an ALIEN LIFEFORM so difficult to accept?
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Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
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I guess it more ppl hoping than actually believing that. Considering the constantly expanded upon MMO RPG nature of STO its player base is far more involved over a far longer longer time than any (or most) other Star Trek themed games.
Ppl like what they know and have getting used to and even more so after spending years on "knowing" something. Having that "new punk" suddenly appear to say "What you know is now wrong, you cant do anything against it, suck it up" does not sit well with most ppl; no matter how clear it might have been from the very beginning that the TV is the alpha and how reasonable someone is; the "inner caveman" feels threatened
I personally would enjoy the new show having some respectful nods to some of STOs storys. I actually can imagine both the show and STO benefitting from each other by trying to complement each other. I do not expect it; I do not demand it.
I personally don't think that would be a wise move. STOs storylines serve the one and only purpose to deliver us tons of trash mobs to shoot, it's in the games' nature. And it shows. I personally would prefer to not see those escapades in the "prime tv" universe. If they decide to do that it's fine of course, but I'd be against it.
I would be thrilled to see STOs type-6 refit starships (the canon variants) in the new show, though.
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Nor really, I just took it as clumsy writing drawing unnecessary attention to a new character... In ToS, Kirk never addressed Uhura as Mister, but always by rank, and I don't recall him addressing Ilia or Valeris as Mister either... I know, in the Grand Scheme of things, it's nothing major, but it's just something that always irritated me. Valeris irritated me more, especially in her dynamic with Spock, which came across as something more than 'Mentorly Sponsorship' on Spock's part (the super-creepy scene where he mixes the drink and makes her chug it, for example)
What? Nothing beats the canon Starfleet captain in the TV show having trophies of his thousands personal kill of Klingons and Undine (severed body part IIRC) in his ready room!
I was thinking more in a general wide spectrum, not the violent MMO details and even less TV versions of missions we play. IMO the way Cryptic salvaged the mess that JJA left of the Romulans is something noteworthy. Not every detail as we see & read in the game, but it could be used and is spot on in the realm of Star Trek possibility.
Also some ships; would be thrilled to see an Oddy in the series (others probably horrified, I know I know
But every game is "officially licensed", as well as every novel that is sold. It just means someone paid the licensing fee, however games have never been acknowledged in canon and I think there were also never direct references to novels. And if so its purely based on the writer's/producer's sympathy with the work in question. So they could very well decide to reference STO but it has nothing to do with it being official.
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Also Spock called her Mister a few times in WOK. Most notably when he has her take the Conn.
"Take her out, Mister Saavik."
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Although, in recent years, this practice has been frowned upon in the Air Force. We were encouraged to use Rank + Last name universally, regardless of whom we were speaking to. I made a habit of using Rank + Last name, myself, as a matter of principle. I expected my subordinates to call me Sergeant--the least I could do was provide them with the same level of respect... (And you'd better believe that if one of my Airmen called me informally, I'd snatch them up with a healthy dose of wall-to-wall counseling!)
The subordinate "Mister" is a naval tradition that (as far as the US military is concerned) does not exist for the other branches. Blurring the gender lines, neutering make pronouns, does seem to be a Trek-specific modification to the old Naval tradition. In the Voyager pilot, Janeway tells Kim that, "Starfleet protocol aside, I've never been comfortable being called 'sir'."
These are the observations we have in canon.
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However that doesn't make the game canon. It just means McCoy refers to an unseen noodle incident that bears a resemblance to the game.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Unfortunately, the same could be said of the comics... the deeper story bits about Nero, Spock, Captain Data, Khan, and the like... unless someone at CBS and/or Paramount come out and say "They are canon," it's soft canon at best.
The Star Wars universe, for an example, has clearly defined what extended universe stuff is considered canon. It would be nice if Trek did something similar... especially taking an eraser to that FUGLY station that has appropriated the name "Deep Space 9" in the novels.
'Countdown' and 'Nero' are the single pieces of ST EU I would want canonising due to the lack of depth in 09.
I still don't get where this concept of hard and soft canon comes from. There's canon (which is the films and TV shows) and non-canon (any licenced ST work) and fanfiction (any non-licenced ST work). SW had a tiered system whereby pieces of the EU were more canonical than others. ST dosen't; all non TV or Film works are equally non-canon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
As far as I know, CBS has. All Live Action TV series, Movies (minus the Reboots), and I believe now the Animated series are considered canon. ANYTHING else is, as you put it, considered soft canon at best. Writers are free to use or disregard whatever they so desire.
"Officially Licensed" means nothing. NOTHING made within the Star Trek franchise, no game, novel, comic, etc. is not licensed. You can not make anything Star Trek without CBS's permission (ignoring the whole paramount/CBS nonsense). But in most cases individual games or novels are free to use or not use whatever they feel (with permission) like as far as what they feel is Star Trek lore.
Hard vs soft only defines how it became canon. Hard canon, we watched on screen or heard in dialog. Soft canon was only referenced. The Earth-Romulan war is canon. It happened. It's Trek. It was referenced multiple times on-screen. However, the books describing the details and events of the war are only soft canon, because we didn't watch the war take place on TV.
Licensed products are non-canon UNLESS they're referenced as soft-canon--and then only the specific details referenced become canon. The Ptolemy, Hermes, and Saladin class starships are from a licensed book, Franz Joseph's Star Fleet Technical Manual. Those ships were seen on-screen (in a display graphic). The ships themselves are (soft) canon, but the rest of the book is non-canon.
Fanon is "widely excepted" non-canon (whether licensed or not), that often becomes canon after-the-fact: Sulu and Uhura's first names; Kirk's middle name; the explanation for the missing Klingon ridges; the location of the Federation President's compound in France; the existence of a Romulan Empress; the Klingon language. All of these things were non-canon... some from Licensed books, others from unlicensed, unofficial, popular fanfic, until they were written into a movie or episode well after they had been initially created as non-canon.
I think my issue is that when I first watched WoK I was a child, so didn't understand the technicalities of the ettiquette, so to my mind, it seemed wierd to be calling a woman 'Mister'. Now, I just find it irritating, because it wasn't congruous to the writing of TOS or TMP... As I said upthread, there were several things which irritate me with WoK, that was just one of them