Do you get the feeling that the STDiscovery trailer was made to poll for Fan reactions so that they could decide whether or not to toss the whole project out before they even make the first film? And that they made the ship so ugly to deliberately tilt that poll into the negative so that they could refuse to finish the project?
If so, they succeeded.
Not they didn't. They made a ship far more appealing than the Excelsior or the Galaxy.
I don't think you understand how aesthetics work. They're subjective not objective.
I'm a graphic designer. I know how aesthetics work. But one would have to be blind to state that the design 'works' in the Federation framework as it's barely a federation type ship...
But each thing/group/faction in Star trek has a specific 'style' and the ship on STDiscovery not only doesn't have that style, it doesn't have any of the standards of the other ships used by the Federation. If you are going to look at it from an art angle, then instead of 'Realism', you're looking at an extremely blocky form of the 'Abstract', much like the public russian art of the '90s. The ship has all the right parts, but the whole is the sum of those parts and, well... the whole thing looks like a bunch of pieces stuck together from different ships, as if they don't belong. So as far as 'aesthetics', it doesn't really work. If I were to set up a Ferengi used-starship yard and put that on the lot, it'd never sell.
As for the Excelsior and Galaxy, those are milestones of the Federation starship design. Most everything about them works for what they are supposed to be. It may be that you find Romulan or Klingon ships more appealing, but those are basically the same thing - visually. Romulans ships are usually smoother, while klingon ships are supposed to be more blocky. Their overall shaped, if slightly modified could be either Romulan or Klingon. That's their style.
This ship, though, has the style of the Klingons, which isn't part of Federation design. Take a klingon ship, have it chase a saucer section, then ram that klingon ship up that saucer's backside, and Poof! you have their new ship for STDiscovery.
Now I can't blame you if you don't like the standard Fed designs. That type of realism just doesn't appeal your your sense of Aesthetics, but neither does abstract art appeal to me. This is very much like Cubism, instead of realism.
A good example of what I mean would be to take a Tholian ship, slap a saucer on the front of it and call it a new Federations starship. You can still tell it's really a THolian vessel, not a Federation one, by the sum of it's parts - their shape and design fit, not into Federation styles and frameworks, but into Tholian ones.
Do you get the feeling that the STDiscovery trailer was made to poll for Fan reactions so that they could decide whether or not to toss the whole project out before they even make the first film? And that they made the ship so ugly to deliberately tilt that poll into the negative so that they could refuse to finish the project?
If so, they succeeded.
Not they didn't. They made a ship far more appealing than the Excelsior or the Galaxy.
I don't think you understand how aesthetics work. They're subjective not objective.
In your opinion
To be fair, the Discovery is an iconic design, in as much as, a fair few have recognized the McQuarrie linneage, even if it's a case of the design only being notable for being what they didn't go with Personally speaking, I always liked the Excelsior and the Galaxy
And a lot of interesting discussion about how he wrote and directed The Wrath of Khan.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Do you get the feeling that the STDiscovery trailer was made to poll for Fan reactions so that they could decide whether or not to toss the whole project out before they even make the first film? And that they made the ship so ugly to deliberately tilt that poll into the negative so that they could refuse to finish the project?
If so, they succeeded.
Not they didn't. They made a ship far more appealing than the Excelsior or the Galaxy.
I don't think you understand how aesthetics work. They're subjective not objective.
I'm a graphic designer. I know how aesthetics work. But one would have to be blind to state that the design 'works' in the Federation framework as it's barely a federation type ship...
But each thing/group/faction in Star trek has a specific 'style' and the ship on STDiscovery not only doesn't have that style, it doesn't have any of the standards of the other ships used by the Federation. If you are going to look at it from an art angle, then instead of 'Realism', you're looking at an extremely blocky form of the 'Abstract', much like the public russian art of the '90s. The ship has all the right parts, but the whole is the sum of those parts and, well... the whole thing looks like a bunch of pieces stuck together from different ships, as if they don't belong. So as far as 'aesthetics', it doesn't really work. If I were to set up a Ferengi used-starship yard and put that on the lot, it'd never sell.
As for the Excelsior and Galaxy, those are milestones of the Federation starship design. Most everything about them works for what they are supposed to be. It may be that you find Romulan or Klingon ships more appealing, but those are basically the same thing - visually. Romulans ships are usually smoother, while klingon ships are supposed to be more blocky. Their overall shaped, if slightly modified could be either Romulan or Klingon. That's their style.
This ship, though, has the style of the Klingons, which isn't part of Federation design. Take a klingon ship, have it chase a saucer section, then ram that klingon ship up that saucer's backside, and Poof! you have their new ship for STDiscovery.
Now I can't blame you if you don't like the standard Fed designs. That type of realism just doesn't appeal your your sense of Aesthetics, but neither does abstract art appeal to me. This is very much like Cubism, instead of realism.
It just doesn't belong.
That wall of text described the Defiant, not a ship with nacelles, a saucer, a secondary hull, and a distinct neck.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
*shrug*
I said too much, but you got the point. And yes I was referring to the image of what you just described, since the Defiant really falls outside the standard ship design for large stereotyped federation ships, but the Galaxy and Excelsior do not. The Discovery just doesn't fit. You could take it to the extreme and say it does, but over all it's a square peg.
still, the article mentioned by dave is worth reading.
I usually agree with your point of view, @artan42, I'm just having some difficulty with this one. And I've still not read anything good about that ship design. I'd like to, but haven't. The general opinion has been the same as mine. *sigh*
I usually agree with your point of view, @artan42, I'm just having some difficulty with this one. And I've still not read anything good about that ship design. I'd like to, but haven't. The general opinion has been the same as mine. *sigh*
Fine, while you wait you can feast your eyes upon the sleek stylish lines of this classic ship: You may resume rejoicing now.
I usually agree with your point of view, @artan42, I'm just having some difficulty with this one. And I've still not read anything good about that ship design. I'd like to, but haven't. The general opinion has been the same as mine. *sigh*
Fine, while you wait you can feast your eyes upon the sleek stylish lines of this classic ship: You may resume rejoicing now.
*shrug*
I said too much, but you got the point. And yes I was referring to the image of what you just described, since the Defiant really falls outside the standard ship design for large stereotyped federation ships, but the Galaxy and Excelsior do not. The Discovery just doesn't fit. You could take it to the extreme and say it does, but over all it's a square peg.
still, the article mentioned by dave is worth reading.
I think what we see in the Defiant-class and similar designs like the Saber and Steamrunner is Starfleet's approach to combatant starships. Technically, they're all combatant ships, but the Connie/Excel/GCS/Intrepid lineage are multirole vessels and carry a lot of extra room around for their other jobs. The Galaxy-class is so big it even leaves several decks of the saucer with empty compartments so they can be bent to whatever purpose a given mission might need, e.g. additional quarters for transporting ground troops, or extra medical suites for humanitarian jobs.
But the Defiant is a pure warship, and one designed to be fielded cheaply and in numbers at that. So they strip out all the extras and cram everything into the stardrive section. In turn, one of the things I like about STO's Avenger and Arbiter is that it's the Defiant philosophy applied to a capital ship. It's smaller than usual (roughly Connie sized IIRC) but carries greater firepower.
I usually agree with your point of view, @artan42, I'm just having some difficulty with this one. And I've still not read anything good about that ship design. I'd like to, but haven't. The general opinion has been the same as mine. *sigh*
Fine, while you wait you can feast your eyes upon the sleek stylish lines of this classic ship: You may resume rejoicing now.
I believe that one was a freighter, not a Starfleet capital ship.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I usually agree with your point of view, @artan42, I'm just having some difficulty with this one. And I've still not read anything good about that ship design. I'd like to, but haven't. The general opinion has been the same as mine. *sigh*
Fine, while you wait you can feast your eyes upon the sleek stylish lines of this classic ship: You may resume rejoicing now.
I believe that one was a freighter, not a Starfleet capital ship.
True, but it was designed by the same group of people. The point was to demonstrate the level of variation used even in TOS era.
I usually agree with your point of view, @artan42, I'm just having some difficulty with this one. And I've still not read anything good about that ship design. I'd like to, but haven't. The general opinion has been the same as mine. *sigh*
I have my issues with it (mainly the colour and the triangle hull) but I'm not willing to dismiss what is essential animated concept art because it's slightly different.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Do you get the feeling that the STDiscovery trailer was made to poll for Fan reactions so that they could decide whether or not to toss the whole project out before they even make the first film? And that they made the ship so ugly to deliberately tilt that poll into the negative so that they could refuse to finish the project?
If so, they succeeded.
Not they didn't. They made a ship far more appealing than the Excelsior or the Galaxy.
I don't think you understand how aesthetics work. They're subjective not objective.
I'm a graphic designer. I know how aesthetics work. But one would have to be blind to state that the design 'works' in the Federation framework as it's barely a federation type ship...
But each thing/group/faction in Star trek has a specific 'style' and the ship on STDiscovery not only doesn't have that style, it doesn't have any of the standards of the other ships used by the Federation. If you are going to look at it from an art angle, then instead of 'Realism', you're looking at an extremely blocky form of the 'Abstract', much like the public russian art of the '90s. The ship has all the right parts, but the whole is the sum of those parts and, well... the whole thing looks like a bunch of pieces stuck together from different ships, as if they don't belong. So as far as 'aesthetics', it doesn't really work. If I were to set up a Ferengi used-starship yard and put that on the lot, it'd never sell.
As for the Excelsior and Galaxy, those are milestones of the Federation starship design. Most everything about them works for what they are supposed to be. It may be that you find Romulan or Klingon ships more appealing, but those are basically the same thing - visually. Romulans ships are usually smoother, while klingon ships are supposed to be more blocky. Their overall shaped, if slightly modified could be either Romulan or Klingon. That's their style.
This ship, though, has the style of the Klingons, which isn't part of Federation design. Take a klingon ship, have it chase a saucer section, then ram that klingon ship up that saucer's backside, and Poof! you have their new ship for STDiscovery.
Now I can't blame you if you don't like the standard Fed designs. That type of realism just doesn't appeal your your sense of Aesthetics, but neither does abstract art appeal to me. This is very much like Cubism, instead of realism.
It just doesn't belong.
DeskTop Publishing has been a hobby of mine (one I haven't really indulged in a few years, although I am now getting hooked on BOFF customization...) for nearly thirty years. Let's talk design... Design has rules, and designers each have their own style. Look at the watches designed by Gerald Genta, and even now, the watch designs inspired by his work. Signatures. Signatures are key...
Messing with the starship customizer, I found something rather interesting...
If you have a spare slot, give this little recipe a try:
Miranda Hull
Centaur Pylons
Any nacelles will work, but I have ShiKahr's on mine...
Another favorite design convention of the Star Trek franchise, is to turn stuff upside-down, so flip it upside down to view the bottom as if it were the top...
The silhouette is unquestionably that of a Romulan T'Liss Class...
Like you said, the Discovery is little more than someone with a starship customizer, and playing around with McQuarrie's concept design... It certainly doesn't fit... The idea of Gerald Genta doing a design for Rolex makes about as much sense as Henry Moore sculpting cubes...
But... Ideas change... Compare the silhouette of the Intrepid Class, to the original Constitution Class... Or the original Constitution Class to the Defiant Class... Wildly different...
There are rumors that what we've seen of the Discovery, isn't actually the finalized design, so fingers crossed, we'll wind up with something a little more in keeping with what we've seen with Federation design
Makes me wonder if whoever designed the Miranda Class was working on that principle, and started with the T'Liss as their base, because to be honest, it was a massive difference from the previously-seen Starfleet vessels
Nah, I think they took a connie and rearranged the parts.
Sure, they ditched the secondary hull, and the parts used are still Federation, but as mentioned, flip a T'Liss on it's head, bring the nacelles inboard with the straight-down pylons, and you have the Miranda
Balance of Terror was heavily inspired by The Enemy Below, a 1957 submarine movie. It was so close to the movie that I believe they had to pay some to the writer of The Enemy Below. Either way, great movie and great episode.
Oh, and if you want to read about real life Captain's try any WW2 Submarine story including bios about or by Mush Morton, Edward Beach, TRIBBLE O'Kaine, etc.
I can never remember the name of this Tier 6 ship class - but seriously, am I the only one who can see the resemblance here?
Resemblance to the DSC ship? Then yes, I think you are
Because, seriously, because there is a triangle shape somewhere in it? Really?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I swear, the more I read here and see the slavish impulse to apply the minimum amount of imagination possible on parade, the happier I am that it's in the hands of someone who doesn't typically pander to the lowest common denominator.
He declaimed specifically the modern focus on audience reaction and the social media-fueled demands fans can place on creators. “My job is not to find out what you want and give it to you. My job is to make you want what I want. And I would never tell you a joke that I didn’t think was funny because I thought you might laugh. That’s TRIBBLE,” Meyer said.
Comments
I'm a graphic designer. I know how aesthetics work. But one would have to be blind to state that the design 'works' in the Federation framework as it's barely a federation type ship...
But each thing/group/faction in Star trek has a specific 'style' and the ship on STDiscovery not only doesn't have that style, it doesn't have any of the standards of the other ships used by the Federation. If you are going to look at it from an art angle, then instead of 'Realism', you're looking at an extremely blocky form of the 'Abstract', much like the public russian art of the '90s. The ship has all the right parts, but the whole is the sum of those parts and, well... the whole thing looks like a bunch of pieces stuck together from different ships, as if they don't belong. So as far as 'aesthetics', it doesn't really work. If I were to set up a Ferengi used-starship yard and put that on the lot, it'd never sell.
As for the Excelsior and Galaxy, those are milestones of the Federation starship design. Most everything about them works for what they are supposed to be. It may be that you find Romulan or Klingon ships more appealing, but those are basically the same thing - visually. Romulans ships are usually smoother, while klingon ships are supposed to be more blocky. Their overall shaped, if slightly modified could be either Romulan or Klingon. That's their style.
This ship, though, has the style of the Klingons, which isn't part of Federation design. Take a klingon ship, have it chase a saucer section, then ram that klingon ship up that saucer's backside, and Poof! you have their new ship for STDiscovery.
Now I can't blame you if you don't like the standard Fed designs. That type of realism just doesn't appeal your your sense of Aesthetics, but neither does abstract art appeal to me. This is very much like Cubism, instead of realism.
It just doesn't belong.
To be fair, the Discovery is an iconic design, in as much as, a fair few have recognized the McQuarrie linneage, even if it's a case of the design only being notable for being what they didn't go with
http://www.idigitaltimes.com/star-trek-discovery-news-why-wrath-khan-director-nicholas-meyer-will-bring-much-557811
And a lot of interesting discussion about how he wrote and directed The Wrath of Khan.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
That wall of text described the Defiant, not a ship with nacelles, a saucer, a secondary hull, and a distinct neck.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I said too much, but you got the point. And yes I was referring to the image of what you just described, since the Defiant really falls outside the standard ship design for large stereotyped federation ships, but the Galaxy and Excelsior do not. The Discovery just doesn't fit. You could take it to the extreme and say it does, but over all it's a square peg.
still, the article mentioned by dave is worth reading.
My character Tsin'xing
But the Defiant is a pure warship, and one designed to be fielded cheaply and in numbers at that. So they strip out all the extras and cram everything into the stardrive section. In turn, one of the things I like about STO's Avenger and Arbiter is that it's the Defiant philosophy applied to a capital ship. It's smaller than usual (roughly Connie sized IIRC) but carries greater firepower.
I believe that one was a freighter, not a Starfleet capital ship.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
I have my issues with it (mainly the colour and the triangle hull) but I'm not willing to dismiss what is essential animated concept art because it's slightly different.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Messing with the starship customizer, I found something rather interesting...
If you have a spare slot, give this little recipe a try:
Miranda Hull
Centaur Pylons
Any nacelles will work, but I have ShiKahr's on mine...
Another favorite design convention of the Star Trek franchise, is to turn stuff upside-down, so flip it upside down to view the bottom as if it were the top...
The silhouette is unquestionably that of a Romulan T'Liss Class...
Like you said, the Discovery is little more than someone with a starship customizer, and playing around with McQuarrie's concept design... It certainly doesn't fit... The idea of Gerald Genta doing a design for Rolex makes about as much sense as Henry Moore sculpting cubes...
But... Ideas change... Compare the silhouette of the Intrepid Class, to the original Constitution Class... Or the original Constitution Class to the Defiant Class... Wildly different...
There are rumors that what we've seen of the Discovery, isn't actually the finalized design, so fingers crossed, we'll wind up with something a little more in keeping with what we've seen with Federation design
Makes me wonder if whoever designed the Miranda Class was working on that principle, and started with the T'Liss as their base, because to be honest, it was a massive difference from the previously-seen Starfleet vessels
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Oh, and if you want to read about real life Captain's try any WW2 Submarine story including bios about or by Mush Morton, Edward Beach, TRIBBLE O'Kaine, etc.
Resemblance to the DSC ship? Then yes, I think you are
Because, seriously, because there is a triangle shape somewhere in it? Really?
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My character Tsin'xing
ANd this is the ship he's comparing it to:
See the problem with this comparison?
My character Tsin'xing