the unholy trinity should never have been invented and needs to be purged from the mindset of gamers AND devs alike
There are some, I believe RIFT, that has tank, healer, DPS, and support. Unholy quad
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the unholy trinity should never have been invented and needs to be purged from the mindset of gamers AND devs alike
Please explain another system that would discourage players from resorting to mindless, non-stop DPS races across all content?
Games that use a trinity system have complex, challenging boss encounters with unique mechanics in instanced content. STO has no trinity system, so instanced content is just a group of players mindlessly hitting the big bad as hard as they can. Oh I died? I'll just full impulse back into the fight, no need to wait for the group to wipe and the fight to reset ... cause that would make too much sense.
Honestly I am not sure completely sure that it is the lack of the trinity fully that makes the dps race the best option, but as said why worry about having someone dedicated to tanking or healing if you are only out of combat for a few seconds at a time, which leads to a zerg mentality as well as dps being a method of reducing the possibility of dying further. I got to admit i would like it if in stfs they made it that the re-spawn/self-rez mechanic wait/cooldown were increased to something along the line of 1-3 minutes base-line, but that you could be rezed/fixed by the other players in the stf in a manner like we have in ground missions. This I think would be nice to make zerging content less viable an option. Hell I would be fine with the idea of your ship reaching 0% hull would be incapacitated yet not destroyed, then during this incapacitated state you regen a percentage of your hull points over time an regain the ability to fight once more when you reach 50% hull strength, but other players could speed this up thru using hull heals on you. While yet enemies firing on you could run a chance to destroy your ship leading to the need to respawn as described above, with the chance increasing over time of being in this state.
I'm having kind of a hard time wrapping my head around science being the "healer" in all of this, having 5 science captains- and none of them being healers.
In STO, Science is exotic damage, and control effects. I may have seen enough healers to count on one hand. Maybe.
Although, as time goes on, I see the focus narrowing on how to make the most money.
With the new skill Revamp and the 3 trees it seems like the perfect time to remove the Trinity ...
Wouldn't we have to have the Trinity before we killed it?
What we have is more like vanilla ice cream with a topping, where you choose what topping you want. Sure nuts are different than chocolate syrup but still essentially the same dessert.
A lot of the comments in this thread seem to be based around Tacs being the only DPS option, Eng are the only tanks, or Sci are the only healers. That is simply false.
All classes are capable of 100k+ DPS. Sure it's the Tacs that can go beyond that (150-200k) but beyond 100k, what's the point? In fact, beyond 70k you're pretty much ready for elite level content.
All classes are capable of rolling out good tank builds. I know and have flown with Sci and Tac tanks who have no problems drawing-in and soaking-up over 80% of the shots fired towards the team in a map. They also do so without majorly compromising their DPS (still hitting over 80k). Engineers do this much better because of their better self-heals. They are also not useless since they make the run so much easier on all levels, not to mention Elite.
One of the best healers in the game is a Tac. Sure he's no DPS monster, but he's a Tac.
People who think Tanks or healers are useless have never flown with one or haven't played anything beyond Advanced (Korfez does not count).
When it all boils down to things, your captain's career does not shoe-horn you into a specific role and to me that's a very good thing. The "Trinity" exists, but they are not based solely on your captain. Your BOff skills, Traits and ship/build are much bigger influencers on what you want or can do effectively in the game and I think that is one to the things that makes this game fun.
If you look.at Picard he has a Tactical focus with some dabbling in science. Kirk was clearly tactically focus with his Science and engineering skills lacking pretty heavily. Janeway had obvious Science Skills but her Tactical was somewhat lacking (you never see her make brilliant manuvers against many opponents)
are some players really that scared of a challenge that requires more than stacking dps, playing grabby with their epeen, and blitzing an encounter in under 60 seconds?
"oh hey there mr 'trinity cancer', i'm sure that statement doesn't relate to you doe.. oh wait.. whats that? oh it does relate.. wow thats a surpris.. erm, actually it's not.. your need to swear to try and make your point was kind of a giveaway" sorry, i tease of course, your level of hostility and energetic angst just got the better of me there.
for starters, trinity does not have to be class specific, that is really looking at things in a narrow beam setting. trinity is simply a way to define a group makeup, and portion out responsibility for an encounter, with any given role being dictated by a specific skill set (or sub set) and employed to a needed level for the encounter.
not wanting a slog?? encounters are generally set to a fixed timer, or, designed to run an approx length of time. having a trinity system does not change that in any way, it just means the encounters are designed with some extra mechanics and group requirement, so that ultimately they still maintain a desired reward of [x thing] for [x time].
the real difference in having a trinity is the quality of the encounter, and having something other than dps being a meta, allowing players to have more options in what they contribute to an encounter, and different aims and goals to set and achieve for themselves as a group (or sub group).
actually, i wonder if that is maybe why the trinity is so adamantly opposed by some? dps is, and has always been, the easiest, most forgiving, option in any trinity based encounter (i'll openly admit that in wow and swtor, there have been occasions when my focus isn't quite there, so i'll play as dps) would a trinity maybe threaten the pride of some captains? introducing a situation in which they would have to try and measure their ability against a non dps focused role? i mean, what would that table or chart look like?
...oh the hubris it must take to compare a dps god to a tank or a healer!!
A lot of the comments in this thread seem to be based around Tacs being the only DPS option, Eng are the only tanks, or Sci are the only healers. That is simply false.
All classes are capable of 100k+ DPS. Sure it's the Tacs that can go beyond that (150-200k) but beyond 100k, what's the point? In fact, beyond 70k you're pretty much ready for elite level content.
All classes are capable of rolling out good tank builds. I know and have flown with Sci and Tac tanks who have no problems drawing-in and soaking-up over 80% of the shots fired towards the team in a map. They also do so without majorly compromising their DPS (still hitting over 80k). Engineers do this much better because of their better self-heals. They are also not useless since they make the run so much easier on all levels, not to mention Elite.
One of the best healers in the game is a Tac. Sure he's no DPS monster, but he's a Tac.
People who think Tanks or healers are useless have never flown with one or haven't played anything beyond Advanced (Korfez does not count).
When it all boils down to things, your captain's career does not shoe-horn you into a specific role and to me that's a very good thing. The "Trinity" exists, but they are not based solely on your captain. Your BOff skills, Traits and ship/build are much bigger influencers on what you want or can do effectively in the game and I think that is one to the things that makes this game fun.
The real problem with STO is from my experience before and after going to a hiatus are:
1. The Player base is actually to blame for all the DPS.
2. Cryptic folded because of said players.
Player tend to shun new players because of low DPS forcing them to seek out more DPS. Which in turn becomes a habit of a vengeful cycle that if you can't do damage then you're out. The "You're ruining everyone's fun" is kinda stupid when you know you are Running PUG where 90% are newbies and are still trying to find their wings. Yeah there are guides out there but one must remember not all are avid readers or actually goes and look for guides. But people do listen from other people who are actually much better if one talks directly... Provided they understand each other's language. I could get deep with this but heck I'll let you guys contemplate about it and think about it.
...Then there is the fact that when an enemy or enemies becomes too hard or too long to kill people demand nerfs. So basically when Cryptic does gave a nerf people either complain (Again) that it's too easy (Geez make up your mind) without realizing that's what they wanted. Then the vicious cycle continues.
You see when people pushed other people too much without even realizing that sometimes pushing (Heck a lot of times really) someone isn't going to make anyone better but mostly annoyed at you. Then comparing ones resources, time, situation or track of mind to another without thinking that we are all different is another big issue for players. This just creates more cycle of mocking etch because people where treated the same constant and norm. Which in the end hurts everyone.
This game has a good balance and it has a sort of "trinity" but with "Parsing", Pride and the fact no enemy can't be killed in under 30 secs. serves no reason for the other 2 to be even viable. The threat system doesn't even help if they can't kill a player captain in the process.
In my humble opinion, the other 2 class can only shine if there is an actual opponent that would force DPS to inadequate in killing it or them. But since players really don't want those kinds of enemy and the elites just wants to "Parse" and partner with other elites then that wont happen.
Anyway hopefully this coming new Skill system who actually forces people to sacrifice things will change the way people play and encourage the need for strategies and team play. The way I see it and the way people want it to be though is they still want to be a one man army.
Which reminds me I should bring my old Prom from storage and play with it in PUG since having a low tier ship sometimes is more exciting for the struggle of having to finish the Que lol =P
Either Trinity or an equal potential for all classes. As it is now game has neither an if this continues its gonna be "Tacs and space Barbie online"
It's funny how quietly Science has pushed itself up.. players like you don't even realize it's happening.
If you don't think Science has 'equal potential' then you haven't been paying attention over the last month or two because Science is quietly becoming quite formidable. Engineering is another issue, but Tactical Officers are far from the only viable option anymore, and a lot of them are doing it with Exotic abilities, Control, and Torpedo/Kinetic Damage types. Yes, that's right.. without FAW. Parity is being introduced and just as expected, players are embracing it.
I wouldn't oppose a Trinity system if nothing was being done to curb the fact that one class has been so vastly superior to the others. I was in support of a Trinity right up until recently when Science started getting some well deserved attention. If they have similar plans for Engineers, then things just might be fine without it.
Trinity or no trinity, if a class sucks.. people won't play it, It's just that simple. Trinity won't fix class imbalance or poor design it just defines roles in a party.
Actually, I think some people are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to how Cryptic would potentially lose sales if we rid ourselves of a specific class based system. There are numerous players, especially those who really love the game who create characters solely for the purpose of them to command a specific ship (usually a C-Store one at that). I may not fall into that club personally, since I don't have the time to devote to separate characters but I don't think it would hurt them that much. I imagine a great many players don't even bother with alts for the same reason as I don't - time.
So in that sense it would BENEFIT Cryptic to go down this route, since it would mean that someone who rolled an engineer or a sci character could benefit from some of the other class abilities and may even mean they buy more tactically focused ships etc to make use of said abilities.
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The "MMO trinity" is based on the idea that all your enemies are utter morons. Maybe that will pass in some fantasy MMO where the enemies are all more or less mindless monsters, but even the dumbest starship captain should know that focusing on an over-armored toothless decoy while his buddies shoot you in the back is a bad idea. And any halfway-competent starship captain would know to always shoot the healer first.
Not even going into how the very existence of space magic healing beams you shoot at other ships to fix them is implausible to the extreme.
Either Trinity or an equal potential for all classes. As it is now game has neither an if this continues its gonna be "Tacs and space Barbie online"
It's funny how quietly Science has pushed itself up.. players like you don't even realize it's happening.
If you don't think Science has 'equal potential' then you haven't been paying attention over the last month or two because Science is quietly becoming quite formidable. Engineering is another issue, but Tactical Officers are far from the only viable option anymore, and a lot of them are doing it with Exotic abilities, Control, and Torpedo/Kinetic Damage types. Yes, that's right.. without FAW. Parity is being introduced and just as expected, players are embracing it.
I wouldn't oppose a Trinity system if nothing was being done to curb the fact that one class has been so vastly superior to the others. I was in support of a Trinity right up until recently when Science started getting some well deserved attention. If they have similar plans for Engineers, then things just might be fine without it.
Science as ship class, absolutely. I think it was already pretty good for a while now (though sometimes a bit limited, since there are still many powers that you don't really use).
But it could be argued that you don't need a Science Captain to do it. I don't think it's a good solution to limit Tac buffs to affect weapons only, though. That means Tacs are only good for weapon-focused builds. There is no need to limit them like that, Rotate Shield Frequency still protects you from damage even though you have also Transfer Shield Strength, Sensor Scan does not just debuff enemies against exotic damage.
It would be better to give either Engineers and Science Captains more abilities to buff their damage, or reign the tac buffs in as a whole. Maybe lower the damage buff from Attack Pattern Alpha and increase its defense bonuses instead, for example.
Trinity or no trinity, if a class sucks.. people won't play it, It's just that simple. Trinity won't fix class imbalance or poor design it just defines roles in a party.
I have to agree. I am not opposed to the trinity (and also not opposed to not having it), but it's a tool to create seperate roles for characters, so that people have to accomplish different tasks in an encounter and not everyone is trying to do the same thing.
That said, one of the worst forms of trinity is probably one where DPS builds can deal with all the incoming damage they face on their own, and crowd control, healing or tanking is not required.
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I agree completely.
The Original game balance was quite frankly always based on destroying targets, but achieving it by different means.
Science was meant to debuff targets making them easier to kill by compromising their defences and diminishing their ability to fight back.
Cruisers and Engineers were meant to be able to take A LOT of damage while returning the favor, ultimately focused on outlasting the opponent.
Tactical and Escorts were glass cannons that were meant to destroy their targets with brute force alone while relying primarily on speed and maneuvrability for survival.
If anything what we had was much closer to a rock-paper-scissor dynamic than the MMO Trinity.
Escort takes science ship -> science ship takes cruiser -> cruiser takes escort.
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I think they should take this time to enforce the MMO trinity myself, but I know not everyone likes it
I agree. STO used to have the trinity back in the day. Remember the days of the Engineers in the big cruisers tanking, the science officers in their science ships debuffin, healin and buffin shields and them tactical officers coming in with their little escorts blowing everything to pieces...the way it should be, imo.
These days you have science officers thinking they are accomplishing something the galaxy-x, tactical officers trying to to pull escort tactics in cruisers and engineers off in wonder land trying to figure out how to make an escort work without the innate tactical abilities.
I think they should take this time to enforce the MMO trinity myself, but I know not everyone likes it
No thank you.
And the way I see it, "the trinity" is already pretty nonexistent in this game since cryptic (no offense to them) can't figure out how to deal with threat management properly. This isn't just evident in STO, but also CO and I suspect Neverwinter as well.
Edit: Personally, I'd like to see captain powers less prominent in space so that the gameplay isn't "tactical or gtfo." All 3 career paths should be much closer in terms of damage-dealing capability than they are right now. It's actually absurd that tactical is so much better than science or especially engineering since, as stated already, there is no real "mmo trinity" in STO. Nor should there be.
I oppose anything that forcibly steers a player towards a prescribed set of skills, or a predetermined mission role. I LIKED my "jack of all trades" builds.
I think they should take this time to enforce the MMO trinity myself, but I know not everyone likes it
No thank you.
And the way I see it, "the trinity" is already pretty nonexistent in this game since cryptic (no offense to them) can't figure out how to deal with threat management properly. This isn't just evident in STO, but also CO and I suspect Neverwinter as well.
Edit: Personally, I'd like to see captain powers less prominent in space so that the gameplay isn't "tactical or gtfo." All 3 career paths should be much closer in terms of damage-dealing capability than they are right now. It's actually absurd that tactical is so much better than science or especially engineering since, as stated already, there is no real "mmo trinity" in STO. Nor should there be.
no, actually, threat generation works pretty damn well in neverwinter...but the fact it took them 3 whole games to get it right is frankly pathetic
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I oppose anything that forcibly steers a player towards a prescribed set of skills, or a predetermined mission role. I LIKED my "jack of all trades" builds.
The problem with that mentality is that you are gimping yourself, and therefor gimping your teammates. These jack of all jokes builds are not good at anything. Masters of none..I have all sorts of parser records from lil fellas coming into my Advanced and Elite STF's with their Jack of all jokes builds, and their overall numbers prove it. Just like most other MMO's out there..keep the trinity, if you want to fire guns and blow stuff up, go tac, you wanna tank? Go engineer. Science officer's..your buffing/debuffing and healing. The way it should be. I find it hard to believe that a Science Officer thinks that they are being effective with their class piloting a Galaxy.
Back a few years I was for the trinity in STO and in general. Now with some stepping back and looking things over, I think the trinity should be altered in STO.
In an open MMO where on a map going to the same area with tough mobs you want a meat shield to protect you. A crowd controller to keep enemy number manageable. A DPS monger to slaughter, and maybe a healer to keep you going as one add or respawn could be too much. Again, in an open world MMO.
STO is primarily an online single player game. That means that you can't heal your way through an encounter or take a sneaky way into a camp to loot a chest or even rely on partnering. None of the open world tactics work. You have to be able to survive, alone.
So the best balance I think needs to be to make the classes and their ships have similar dps to one another. But by a different flavour. Science ships have phasers but do their real damage from the science powers like Tyken's rift and grav wells. Tactical ships are guns and more guns, throw on another gun for good measure. Easy. The only trick I find hard is what can an engineer do to have his special dps? My best answer is still guns and tough hulls. But instead of beams that fire every second. They get a five times as powerful a beam every five seconds. DPS stays the same as the tac ship but done in one hit punches instead of the rapid pulses of a smaller vessel.
If you can't do a trinity, bring everyone up to the same level with new flavour.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
The "MMO trinity" is based on the idea that all your enemies are utter morons. Maybe that will pass in some fantasy MMO where the enemies are all more or less mindless monsters, but even the dumbest starship captain should know that focusing on an over-armored toothless decoy while his buddies shoot you in the back is a bad idea. And any halfway-competent starship captain would know to always shoot the healer first.
Yeah "tanks" can't give out threat without DPS. Sure you have abilities that create threat.... but they're feeble compared to the threat you create via DPS.
It's already enforced which is silly when you look at captians like Picard, Kirk, Janeway and the others. You don't see them as Tactical Engineering or Science but a rather diverse mix
LOL
Kirk was a very tactical kind of guy.
Janeway was way more into engineering than either Picard or Kirk.
Picard was a more interested in archeology (a science) than any other captain was shown to be.
STO carries the advancement triumvirate just fine from cannon. It's one of the things I truly like about this mmo.
As for the trinity, I would like to see it brought into this game based on the ship, gear and skill selection than on career path. Giving the option that a Tactical could choose to heal or tank. But the need to heal and tank needs to be built into the game better than it is now. I like seeing different play styles get involved in the game and actually be considered a good choice.
WFT, This game has never had the Trinity. Tell me when was the last time you really needed a ship tanked or a dedicated healer. Not just a tank and heal every now and then but from start to finsih. Never. If Cryptic would build thier 5 mans (and eventually 10-20man raids) to use the Trinity formula players would have a purpose when going into battle. Not just 5 people running around like chickens with thier heads cut off pew pewing everything. I say right now is the time to implement the Trinity formula. Give players purpose the next time they go into battle. A role, strategy a real chance of victory AND defeat. Its all on them.
Honestly if they were/are going to make the trinity important and part of the content more, as right now we do have the tools to fill these roles in a variety of ways (even having specific careers like engineering and science buffing their way of healing either thru hull or shield healing specifically). They they would make dying more punishing an yet add an element into the game that would be more star trek like.
Such as the fallowing for a revamp of the death and respawning/rezing mechanic in space. First raise the base cooldown till you can rez/respawn after being destroyed to being between 1-3 mins while in a stf at least, and so making it actually punishing to die since you are out of the action an the group is gimped longer in response to deaths. Than make it that death/destruction does not happen when your hull is depleted, but merely you enter into a incapacitated state. Than while you are incapacitated state you slowly regenerate your hull points both passively an by using your own hull heals or a party member using thier own on you, than after reaching say 50% hull you can rejoin the fight an your systems are active once more, but if you are fired upon during this time you have a chance of being destroyed leading to the need to respawn/rez an having the 1-3 min wait on cool down before you can do so. There is also the possibility to make it that since your ship was so badly damaged, or even destroyed that you would return with a 15-30 second debuff that reduces your ship's performance while it's systems an power level stabilize once more. Such a change could lead actually to more team work overall in all areas, while making zerging vastly worse an options
Honestly I could see more of a reason that tanking could work, as you could launch virus programs attempting to infect your enemies targetting system causing it to give incorrect displays of what targets they are locked on firing upon is one possibility.
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There are some, I believe RIFT, that has tank, healer, DPS, and support. Unholy quad
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Please explain another system that would discourage players from resorting to mindless, non-stop DPS races across all content?
Games that use a trinity system have complex, challenging boss encounters with unique mechanics in instanced content. STO has no trinity system, so instanced content is just a group of players mindlessly hitting the big bad as hard as they can. Oh I died? I'll just full impulse back into the fight, no need to wait for the group to wipe and the fight to reset ... cause that would make too much sense.
In STO, Science is exotic damage, and control effects. I may have seen enough healers to count on one hand. Maybe.
Although, as time goes on, I see the focus narrowing on how to make the most money.
Federation -KDF- Romulan: Federation
Tactical -Engineer- Science: Tactical
Cruiser/Battlecruiser -Escort/Raptor- Science Vessel -(lol)Raider: Cruiser/Battlecruiser
The game is weapon based DPS focused (tactical), with more Cruisers/Battlecruisers coming out, and, as always, mostly Federation.
Engineers and Science captains are the new Klingons and Romulans!
Wouldn't we have to have the Trinity before we killed it?
What we have is more like vanilla ice cream with a topping, where you choose what topping you want. Sure nuts are different than chocolate syrup but still essentially the same dessert.
People who think Tanks or healers are useless have never flown with one or haven't played anything beyond Advanced (Korfez does not count).
When it all boils down to things, your captain's career does not shoe-horn you into a specific role and to me that's a very good thing. The "Trinity" exists, but they are not based solely on your captain. Your BOff skills, Traits and ship/build are much bigger influencers on what you want or can do effectively in the game and I think that is one to the things that makes this game fun.
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Specifically they were:
Archer: Engineer, Test Pilot
Kirk: Tactical, Hand-to-Hand Combat Specialist
Picard: Science, Archaeologist
Sisko: Engineer, Starship Design Specialist
Janeway: Science, Geologist
"oh hey there mr 'trinity cancer', i'm sure that statement doesn't relate to you doe.. oh wait.. whats that? oh it does relate.. wow thats a surpris.. erm, actually it's not.. your need to swear to try and make your point was kind of a giveaway" sorry, i tease of course, your level of hostility and energetic angst just got the better of me there.
for starters, trinity does not have to be class specific, that is really looking at things in a narrow beam setting. trinity is simply a way to define a group makeup, and portion out responsibility for an encounter, with any given role being dictated by a specific skill set (or sub set) and employed to a needed level for the encounter.
not wanting a slog?? encounters are generally set to a fixed timer, or, designed to run an approx length of time. having a trinity system does not change that in any way, it just means the encounters are designed with some extra mechanics and group requirement, so that ultimately they still maintain a desired reward of [x thing] for [x time].
the real difference in having a trinity is the quality of the encounter, and having something other than dps being a meta, allowing players to have more options in what they contribute to an encounter, and different aims and goals to set and achieve for themselves as a group (or sub group).
actually, i wonder if that is maybe why the trinity is so adamantly opposed by some? dps is, and has always been, the easiest, most forgiving, option in any trinity based encounter (i'll openly admit that in wow and swtor, there have been occasions when my focus isn't quite there, so i'll play as dps) would a trinity maybe threaten the pride of some captains? introducing a situation in which they would have to try and measure their ability against a non dps focused role? i mean, what would that table or chart look like?
...oh the hubris it must take to compare a dps god to a tank or a healer!!
sorry had to quote this for truth and lols. +rep2u
The real problem with STO is from my experience before and after going to a hiatus are:
1. The Player base is actually to blame for all the DPS.
2. Cryptic folded because of said players.
Player tend to shun new players because of low DPS forcing them to seek out more DPS. Which in turn becomes a habit of a vengeful cycle that if you can't do damage then you're out. The "You're ruining everyone's fun" is kinda stupid when you know you are Running PUG where 90% are newbies and are still trying to find their wings. Yeah there are guides out there but one must remember not all are avid readers or actually goes and look for guides. But people do listen from other people who are actually much better if one talks directly... Provided they understand each other's language. I could get deep with this but heck I'll let you guys contemplate about it and think about it.
...Then there is the fact that when an enemy or enemies becomes too hard or too long to kill people demand nerfs. So basically when Cryptic does gave a nerf people either complain (Again) that it's too easy (Geez make up your mind) without realizing that's what they wanted. Then the vicious cycle continues.
You see when people pushed other people too much without even realizing that sometimes pushing (Heck a lot of times really) someone isn't going to make anyone better but mostly annoyed at you. Then comparing ones resources, time, situation or track of mind to another without thinking that we are all different is another big issue for players. This just creates more cycle of mocking etch because people where treated the same constant and norm. Which in the end hurts everyone.
This game has a good balance and it has a sort of "trinity" but with "Parsing", Pride and the fact no enemy can't be killed in under 30 secs. serves no reason for the other 2 to be even viable. The threat system doesn't even help if they can't kill a player captain in the process.
In my humble opinion, the other 2 class can only shine if there is an actual opponent that would force DPS to inadequate in killing it or them. But since players really don't want those kinds of enemy and the elites just wants to "Parse" and partner with other elites then that wont happen.
Anyway hopefully this coming new Skill system who actually forces people to sacrifice things will change the way people play and encourage the need for strategies and team play. The way I see it and the way people want it to be though is they still want to be a one man army.
Which reminds me I should bring my old Prom from storage and play with it in PUG since having a low tier ship sometimes is more exciting for the struggle of having to finish the Que lol =P
It's funny how quietly Science has pushed itself up.. players like you don't even realize it's happening.
If you don't think Science has 'equal potential' then you haven't been paying attention over the last month or two because Science is quietly becoming quite formidable. Engineering is another issue, but Tactical Officers are far from the only viable option anymore, and a lot of them are doing it with Exotic abilities, Control, and Torpedo/Kinetic Damage types. Yes, that's right.. without FAW. Parity is being introduced and just as expected, players are embracing it.
I wouldn't oppose a Trinity system if nothing was being done to curb the fact that one class has been so vastly superior to the others. I was in support of a Trinity right up until recently when Science started getting some well deserved attention. If they have similar plans for Engineers, then things just might be fine without it.
Trinity or no trinity, if a class sucks.. people won't play it, It's just that simple. Trinity won't fix class imbalance or poor design it just defines roles in a party.
So in that sense it would BENEFIT Cryptic to go down this route, since it would mean that someone who rolled an engineer or a sci character could benefit from some of the other class abilities and may even mean they buy more tactically focused ships etc to make use of said abilities.
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Not even going into how the very existence of space magic healing beams you shoot at other ships to fix them is implausible to the extreme.
But it could be argued that you don't need a Science Captain to do it. I don't think it's a good solution to limit Tac buffs to affect weapons only, though. That means Tacs are only good for weapon-focused builds. There is no need to limit them like that, Rotate Shield Frequency still protects you from damage even though you have also Transfer Shield Strength, Sensor Scan does not just debuff enemies against exotic damage.
It would be better to give either Engineers and Science Captains more abilities to buff their damage, or reign the tac buffs in as a whole. Maybe lower the damage buff from Attack Pattern Alpha and increase its defense bonuses instead, for example.
I have to agree. I am not opposed to the trinity (and also not opposed to not having it), but it's a tool to create seperate roles for characters, so that people have to accomplish different tasks in an encounter and not everyone is trying to do the same thing.
That said, one of the worst forms of trinity is probably one where DPS builds can deal with all the incoming damage they face on their own, and crowd control, healing or tanking is not required.
The Original game balance was quite frankly always based on destroying targets, but achieving it by different means.
Science was meant to debuff targets making them easier to kill by compromising their defences and diminishing their ability to fight back.
Cruisers and Engineers were meant to be able to take A LOT of damage while returning the favor, ultimately focused on outlasting the opponent.
Tactical and Escorts were glass cannons that were meant to destroy their targets with brute force alone while relying primarily on speed and maneuvrability for survival.
If anything what we had was much closer to a rock-paper-scissor dynamic than the MMO Trinity.
Escort takes science ship -> science ship takes cruiser -> cruiser takes escort.
I agree. STO used to have the trinity back in the day. Remember the days of the Engineers in the big cruisers tanking, the science officers in their science ships debuffin, healin and buffin shields and them tactical officers coming in with their little escorts blowing everything to pieces...the way it should be, imo.
These days you have science officers thinking they are accomplishing something the galaxy-x, tactical officers trying to to pull escort tactics in cruisers and engineers off in wonder land trying to figure out how to make an escort work without the innate tactical abilities.
Quite entertaining.
And the way I see it, "the trinity" is already pretty nonexistent in this game since cryptic (no offense to them) can't figure out how to deal with threat management properly. This isn't just evident in STO, but also CO and I suspect Neverwinter as well.
Edit: Personally, I'd like to see captain powers less prominent in space so that the gameplay isn't "tactical or gtfo." All 3 career paths should be much closer in terms of damage-dealing capability than they are right now. It's actually absurd that tactical is so much better than science or especially engineering since, as stated already, there is no real "mmo trinity" in STO. Nor should there be.
no, actually, threat generation works pretty damn well in neverwinter...but the fact it took them 3 whole games to get it right is frankly pathetic
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The problem with that mentality is that you are gimping yourself, and therefor gimping your teammates. These jack of all jokes builds are not good at anything. Masters of none..I have all sorts of parser records from lil fellas coming into my Advanced and Elite STF's with their Jack of all jokes builds, and their overall numbers prove it. Just like most other MMO's out there..keep the trinity, if you want to fire guns and blow stuff up, go tac, you wanna tank? Go engineer. Science officer's..your buffing/debuffing and healing. The way it should be. I find it hard to believe that a Science Officer thinks that they are being effective with their class piloting a Galaxy.
In an open MMO where on a map going to the same area with tough mobs you want a meat shield to protect you. A crowd controller to keep enemy number manageable. A DPS monger to slaughter, and maybe a healer to keep you going as one add or respawn could be too much. Again, in an open world MMO.
STO is primarily an online single player game. That means that you can't heal your way through an encounter or take a sneaky way into a camp to loot a chest or even rely on partnering. None of the open world tactics work. You have to be able to survive, alone.
So the best balance I think needs to be to make the classes and their ships have similar dps to one another. But by a different flavour. Science ships have phasers but do their real damage from the science powers like Tyken's rift and grav wells. Tactical ships are guns and more guns, throw on another gun for good measure. Easy. The only trick I find hard is what can an engineer do to have his special dps? My best answer is still guns and tough hulls. But instead of beams that fire every second. They get a five times as powerful a beam every five seconds. DPS stays the same as the tac ship but done in one hit punches instead of the rapid pulses of a smaller vessel.
If you can't do a trinity, bring everyone up to the same level with new flavour.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
My character Tsin'xing
LOL
Kirk was a very tactical kind of guy.
Janeway was way more into engineering than either Picard or Kirk.
Picard was a more interested in archeology (a science) than any other captain was shown to be.
STO carries the advancement triumvirate just fine from cannon. It's one of the things I truly like about this mmo.
As for the trinity, I would like to see it brought into this game based on the ship, gear and skill selection than on career path. Giving the option that a Tactical could choose to heal or tank. But the need to heal and tank needs to be built into the game better than it is now. I like seeing different play styles get involved in the game and actually be considered a good choice.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Such as the fallowing for a revamp of the death and respawning/rezing mechanic in space. First raise the base cooldown till you can rez/respawn after being destroyed to being between 1-3 mins while in a stf at least, and so making it actually punishing to die since you are out of the action an the group is gimped longer in response to deaths. Than make it that death/destruction does not happen when your hull is depleted, but merely you enter into a incapacitated state. Than while you are incapacitated state you slowly regenerate your hull points both passively an by using your own hull heals or a party member using thier own on you, than after reaching say 50% hull you can rejoin the fight an your systems are active once more, but if you are fired upon during this time you have a chance of being destroyed leading to the need to respawn/rez an having the 1-3 min wait on cool down before you can do so. There is also the possibility to make it that since your ship was so badly damaged, or even destroyed that you would return with a 15-30 second debuff that reduces your ship's performance while it's systems an power level stabilize once more. Such a change could lead actually to more team work overall in all areas, while making zerging vastly worse an options
Honestly I could see more of a reason that tanking could work, as you could launch virus programs attempting to infect your enemies targetting system causing it to give incorrect displays of what targets they are locked on firing upon is one possibility.