well borticus answered the question - will this revamp move us closer to a trinity style of play? the very definitive answer was 'no' with some more words that meant 'no' and some descriptive stuff that reiterated both the previous 'no' and was in itself a 'no' so erm, there is no trinity and will be no trinity.
cant say i'm happy with the answer, cant say i'm really surprised either.. they do seem to have trouble creating stimulating end game content as it is, without needing to add extra mechanics or balancing to an encounter to suit roles other than dps, more dps, more different dps, and space barbie.
(yes, i appreciate 'space barbie' isn't actually a clearly defined role, but it is very much a theme here in game, so for the lack of being required to 'do' anything other than dps, the space barbie is staying)
so yes, i was disappointed with the answer to my question, however, i was very pleasantly surprised with the manner of its asking. the question was very well articulated by Kenna, and sounded quite fabulous, so that was something at least.
well borticus answered the question - will this revamp move us closer to a trinity style of play? the very definitive answer was 'no' with some more words that meant 'no' and some descriptive stuff that reiterated both the previous 'no' and was in itself a 'no' so erm, there is no trinity and will be no trinity.
I think they should take this time to enforce the MMO trinity myself, but I know not everyone likes it
No thank you.
And the way I see it, "the trinity" is already pretty nonexistent in this game since cryptic (no offense to them) can't figure out how to deal with threat management properly. This isn't just evident in STO, but also CO and I suspect Neverwinter as well.
Edit: Personally, I'd like to see captain powers less prominent in space so that the gameplay isn't "tactical or gtfo." All 3 career paths should be much closer in terms of damage-dealing capability than they are right now. It's actually absurd that tactical is so much better than science or especially engineering since, as stated already, there is no real "mmo trinity" in STO. Nor should there be.
no, actually, threat generation works pretty damn well in neverwinter...but the fact it took them 3 whole games to get it right is frankly pathetic
Aah, my mistake then, as I never really got too far in Neverwinter. I just recall many "tanks" being questionable in the few dungeons I ran, but perhaps that's just bad noobish tanks. Either way, in CO the fix is as painfully easy as boosting the threat generation by a huge margin. But for STO? I really don't think it has any place here.
I think they should take this time to enforce the MMO trinity myself, but I know not everyone likes it
No thank you.
And the way I see it, "the trinity" is already pretty nonexistent in this game since cryptic (no offense to them) can't figure out how to deal with threat management properly. This isn't just evident in STO, but also CO and I suspect Neverwinter as well.
Edit: Personally, I'd like to see captain powers less prominent in space so that the gameplay isn't "tactical or gtfo." All 3 career paths should be much closer in terms of damage-dealing capability than they are right now. It's actually absurd that tactical is so much better than science or especially engineering since, as stated already, there is no real "mmo trinity" in STO. Nor should there be.
no, actually, threat generation works pretty damn well in neverwinter...but the fact it took them 3 whole games to get it right is frankly pathetic
Aah, my mistake then, as I never really got too far in Neverwinter. I just recall many "tanks" being questionable in the few dungeons I ran, but perhaps that's just bad noobish tanks. Either way, in CO the fix is as painfully easy as boosting the threat generation by a huge margin. But for STO? I really don't think it has any place here.
aye, agreed. its been made pretty clear that there is no requirement for anything other than dps to play the content in this game. the game is constantly pushing high dps, so even if anyone wanted to get into a proper threat pulling tanking role, it will likely pull more hostility and threat from the players than the instance, especially as tanking tends to translate to survivability over dps (although i am aware there are tankers pulling very high dps, but i'm pretty sure they wouldn't call themselves tanks) dps is, and still will be, the main source of threat generation.. so i'm seeing this skill as rather pointless, maybe even a little misleading.
I think a few people have misinterpreted what I was saying here... I'm talking about removing the Trinity of Classes ie. Tactical Science and Engineering in favor of using the skill tree to determine that instead of a choice upon creation. What im suggesting is that as you level a specific tree you unlock the skills associated with it rather than getting glued with the CLASS SKILLS. Frankly it's kind of odd that we have such a diverse range of ships that we can freely swap to but yet we are stuck having to choose from 3 classes when only 1 is truly useful. (And FYI my main is Science) and this skill tree revamp seems.to.me like the perfect way to implement a change like this.
I think a few people have misinterpreted what I was saying here... I'm talking about removing the Trinity of Classes ie. Tactical Science and Engineering in favor of using the skill tree to determine that instead of a choice upon creation. What im suggesting is that as you level a specific tree you unlock the skills associated with it rather than getting glued with the CLASS SKILLS. Frankly it's kind of odd that we have such a diverse range of ships that we can freely swap to but yet we are stuck having to choose from 3 classes when only 1 is truly useful. (And FYI my main is Science) and this skill tree revamp seems.to.me like the perfect way to implement a change like this.
I can see your point yet in the end a ship is build and outfitted with a specific duty in mind, and can be outfitted with other equipment to satisfy different needs. Now to me at least it makes sense to have a core-career that your captain focused their attention within, that than improves as you progress thru your career improving your understanding an applying this knowledge you gained to other areas you might delve into learning, such as tactical or engineering even if you are a science oriented officer. As such it would make sense you gain abilities in three ways thru this idea. First it is thru your primary career that you trained in during your time in the academy (the career you chose at creation). Next is abilities that you gained thru spending time/points training in other careers via the talent trees of that career (call this the sub-career). Finally you learn abilities that are a mixture of your primary career an your progress in the sub-careers you talented into an so applying your understanding of each to create a unique set of abilities for that mixture of talent/training. Also to me at least a tactical officer is on average going to have a better understanding an methods of using his tactical training than a engineering/science officer that switched/changed career to a tactical officer, when both of these officers have the same length of career (so say both would have been in starfleet/kd/romulan for 10 years) as well as barring any innate talent for that career.
An example of the above would be something like "brace for impact" an ability we all get, but now if we had buffs that could be applied to it based on how deeply you specced into the three talent trees, another could be "eps power transfer", or "subnucleonic Beam", and even "attack pattern alpha" which could different bonus buffs/effects based on what additional training you gained via your choice in talent tree. I mean imagine what kinds of tricks or alternations a captain that began to apply training in different studies to his tactical/science/engineering training.
Now to me the fact that one out of three of the careers being more prefered/useful is that players prefered tactical for it's obvious appeal in damage, as well as crypitic having been slower to improve an update the other two career options in time with changes an buffs applied to tactical. I would also say why have alts if you can just re-spec into being tactical/engineering/science on a single officer, since if you just by spending points into that specific career tree gain the same abilities as if you created that character from scratch as that, having different classes/careers for many gives them reply value by having even a slightly different style an leveling experience.
I think a few people have misinterpreted what I was saying here... I'm talking about removing the Trinity of Classes ie. Tactical Science and Engineering in favor of using the skill tree to determine that instead of a choice upon creation. What im suggesting is that as you level a specific tree you unlock the skills associated with it rather than getting glued with the CLASS SKILLS. Frankly it's kind of odd that we have such a diverse range of ships that we can freely swap to but yet we are stuck having to choose from 3 classes when only 1 is truly useful. (And FYI my main is Science) and this skill tree revamp seems.to.me like the perfect way to implement a change like this.
erm o/ guilty as charged! i totally grabbed the wrong end of the snake.
Honestly that video is just beyond stupid.
That quote of "38" photon torpedoes is taken waaaay out of context and to ridiculous extremes.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
Since this thread started I have used my search engine to look up "Trinity". The first definition was the religious one. The second was a reference to a MMORPG set in a fantasy world. I respectfully submit that trinity may not have been the best choice of words to explain your point. I get what you are saying now. That being said I also respectfully submit that removing the profession labels from Star Trek would be like removing the J*di and the S*th from that other IP. The SCE is to some people too big a thing in Trek lore to ever think they will stop calling themselves engineers. The Academic/Professional track is a part of the Star Trek IP and the department colors mean a lot to a lot of its fans. But...you are not wrong if for no other reason than the Command track takes anybody who can pass that test when they think they night need or want to sit in That Chair. Deanna Troi, for example was ship's counselor. May have been an MFT, may have been a full psychiatrist. She wore the colors of Science/Medical. Then she took the commander's test. That does not make her 'not a scientist', it just means she may be obliged to wear the command colors if she accepts a promtion and sits in that chair. And Captain Nog is an engineer with an escort. I don't hate your suggestion but I do think any change should take into account that being the captain of a starship means wearing command colors but it doesn't change what you studied at the academy. I do apologise for not being a writer and I hope I have not upset anyone. LLAP.
I think a few people have misinterpreted what I was saying here... I'm talking about removing the Trinity of Classes ie. Tactical Science and Engineering in favor of using the skill tree to determine that instead of a choice upon creation. What im suggesting is that as you level a specific tree you unlock the skills associated with it rather than getting glued with the CLASS SKILLS. Frankly it's kind of odd that we have such a diverse range of ships that we can freely swap to but yet we are stuck having to choose from 3 classes when only 1 is truly useful. (And FYI my main is Science) and this skill tree revamp seems.to.me like the perfect way to implement a change like this.
Oh, well I'd definitely be in favor of that, as the concept of character classes feels tired and overused in MMOs. Still, there's a lot of people out there who love the idea of character classes, so Cryptic would need to be wary of that if they decided to use the new skill system as a chance to implement the open-ended character progression you're suggesting.
Another thing to be wary of is that it might also open the way to extreme cookie cutter scenarios: Most people on the ground would be hauling around their mandatory medical tricorder. Most people in space would try to make themselves as close to what tactical is now.
For such a thing to truly work out, Cryptic would need to step in and spend a lot of time balancing things. Probably more than they're willing to.
One more time, there IS NO TRINITY IN STAR TREK. Nobody in a single movie, television episode, or novel acted as a "tank" or "healer" while someone else acted as a glass cannon damage dealer. It DID. NOT. HAPPEN. EVER. It's not part of Star Trek and it doesn't belong in a Star Trek game. That concept was developed for a ground-based fantasy game featuring knights and wizards and such, it has nothing whatsoever to do with a spacecraft combat game in general or Star Trek in particular.
The closest thing to roles you can get from the Star Trek IP is the formula some space games used where you have a "fragile speedster", "mighty glacier" and "middle ground", but that always worked in terms of speed vs toughness while damage output was mostly the same. And of course, the Defiant was hardly fragile was it? So, that's kind of a stretch. There were no carriers and especially no space wizard "science" vessels. Most ships were capital ships of various types designed to be self-sufficient, with some variation of course but for the most part there weren't a lot of segmented roles in Star Trek navies nor a lot of specialized ships. Where the game introduces them to add player variety it should be done in terms of what makes sense for a space navy, not what makes sense for a band of fantasy heroes in the magic middle ages.
I agree. But I also think STO has its own type of trinity system in place.
Everyone's primary focus is damage. Everyone has weapons. Everyone should have some basic competence just shooting things.
It's the secondary stuff that is (or, rather, has potential to be) interesting.
Although I think STO drops the ball most of the time when it comes to utilizing anything but brute force dps, damage should be the first thing you focus on, before you start to go into exploring your secondary skills. I'd like if the secondary stuff could be made more prevalent, but I really don't think it should be 1 dimensionally so.
Id like a removal of the trinity as far as being mission specific, would rather have it where you can be a sci , tac, or eng that can dabble in any field they like.
Sure their specialty would be tac, sci or eng but they could branch out and do more then just be a one trick pony all the time.
It's already enforced which is silly when you look at captians like Picard, Kirk, Janeway and the others. You don't see them as Tactical Engineering or Science but a rather diverse mix
LOL
Kirk was a very tactical kind of guy.
Janeway was way more into engineering than either Picard or Kirk.
Picard was a more interested in archeology (a science) than any other captain was shown to be.
STO carries the advancement triumvirate just fine from cannon. It's one of the things I truly like about this mmo.
As for the trinity, I would like to see it brought into this game based on the ship, gear and skill selection than on career path. Giving the option that a Tactical could choose to heal or tank. But the need to heal and tank needs to be built into the game better than it is now. I like seeing different play styles get involved in the game and actually be considered a good choice.
given that the game currently has powers that are already a combination of damage prevention and healing... separating healing from tanking seems hard to do.
With the new skill Revamp and the 3 trees it seems like the perfect time to remove the Trinity and allocate the class specific skills to the respective trees and just name it the Career Paths. If this is done it would eliminate the Trinity and make our Captians quite unique in that the career paths we have could wind up varying quite a bit outside of I'm red your blue and that guy is yellow. Anyone else think we should eradicate the Trinity at this time and make our Captians just Captians?
Have you been to tribble to test this new system out? If you have been there, like I have for the last 8 hours, then you would know what is coming. When this new system goes live some things are going to drastically change.
Right now the trinity is dead, as things are, I do not want your heals, I do not need your heals. I do not want your tank and I do not need your tank.
However... When this new system goes live I may very well need your heals and I may very well need a tank.
Missions... No problem, I will be able to handle the episodes as I always have. But in STFS I am going to need help. Depending on what toon I am on, I may be the one helping.
One of the big things I noticed is how if you go heavy into damage you suffer big time in the area of survivability. BIG TIME. No joke, if I want to maintain the same damage output I have right now, with the new system in place, I am going to lose about 2k shield capacity, half of my shield hardness, going to lose about 10k hull and half of my hull strength. I am also going to take a hit in the subsystem power department, going to lose a lot of drain resistance, flow capacitors, power transfer rate and attack patterns too.
That is a drastic change.
I am going to lose a lot in this deal and not gain anything at all to make up for it. This is what I have learned from my 8 hours on tribble, 6 of those hours was spent getting my toon situated, unlocking reps, levelling up, getting abilities for my boffs, equipping my ship, etc...
I know why they temporarily disabled previously transferred characters. They did not want the feedback, the backlash, the utter riot that would ensue if they let everyone see just how crippling the new system is really going to be. When you run an ISA with your toon and only do half the damage you are used to, either because you could not manage to go full damage because you wanted to live or because you died so many times because you did go full damage, you are going to be very upset.
Things are going to change, the whole game is about to change, the way we played this game is gone. It is time to learn to accept our new reality or bail out.
On a positive note, the ground game is getting a major buff. With just those measly little 10 points I was able to get 40 extra damage out of my weapon and an additional 13% crit hit rate. That is a MAJOR buff for the ground game. And I do not feel as though I lost anything at all in that deal.
So YAY for ground game and totally booooo for space.
Have you been to tribble to test this new system out? If you have been there, like I have for the last 8 hours, then you would know what is coming. When this new system goes live some things are going to drastically change.
...
One of the big things I noticed is how if you go heavy into damage you suffer big time in the area of survivability. BIG TIME. No joke, if I want to maintain the same damage output I have right now, with the new system in place, I am going to lose about 2k shield capacity, half of my shield hardness, going to lose about 10k hull and half of my hull strength. I am also going to take a hit in the subsystem power department, going to lose a lot of drain resistance, flow capacitors, power transfer rate and attack patterns too.
That is a drastic change.
Thank you very much for testing it out on tribble and giving feedback here. This is very much appreciated.
I find the changes you mentioned concerning to put it mildly.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Have you been to tribble to test this new system out? If you have been there, like I have for the last 8 hours, then you would know what is coming. When this new system goes live some things are going to drastically change.
With all due respect I don't know who you are or what your testing methodology is.
I'll be waiting for them to enable tribble character transfers again before freaking out about reduced damage effectiveness, or to be specific: i do not believe you when you say that you have to heavily invest in tac and sacrifice survivability just to maintain your current damage numbers.
unless you are talking about exotic damage numbers, my own initial testing is indicating the opposite.
The real testing won't start till we can compare our holodeck toons 1:1 to tribble toons.
I'm all in favor of allowing players to pick and choose skills from all branches. Loose the trinity, after all a captain in starfleet goes into the command track anyway, I'd imagine the KDF and Romulans have a similar practice. All the captians shown in the shows were not any 1 profession, they all were a hybrid of some kind, although of different ability levels in them. Having to spend your skill points on ways to boost skills would always have to come with some kind of trade off, but if I choose to give up a little of my ability as an engineer to gain a little more tactical prowess, or even more pick up some science skill and now if done right I could be a super healer, I think it would be great.
if the Galactica deck crew can whip up a stealth fighter by hand....
yeah, but that was a cylon and a woman who can smash into a planet and shake it off like a paper cut a few days later.....besides Voyager needed to run out of gas every so often, otherwise it would have been one episode long. Janeway blows up the caretakers array, then sets the cruse control to drink a million gallons of coffee.
With all due respect I don't know who you are or what your testing methodology is.
It is all good, I don't care if you know me or my methods. I don't know you either, so we are even.
Except that it's not all good. The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, so you should care, and you aren't 'even'. Stating that you don't care and making no effort to substantiate your claims makes them seem even more worthless.
Have you been to tribble to test this new system out? If you have been there, like I have for the last 8 hours, then you would know what is coming. When this new system goes live some things are going to drastically change.
With all due respect I don't know who you are or what your testing methodology is.
I'll be waiting for them to enable tribble character transfers again before freaking out about reduced damage effectiveness, or to be specific: i do not believe you when you say that you have to heavily invest in tac and sacrifice survivability just to maintain your current damage numbers.
unless you are talking about exotic damage numbers, my own initial testing is indicating the opposite.
The real testing won't start till we can compare our holodeck toons 1:1 to tribble toons.
Yeah these are my thoughts too. My initial impressions were that if I focus on my core skills (the ones I have in Holodeck) and try to replicate those in Tribble (without going for the new skill bonuses) I'd actually be able to replicate my build with some points to spare. The people having trouble replicating their builds either seem to be using a very different skill point allocation or are mistaking some new skills as integral parts of their former builds.
I'm eagerly waiting for character copies to be re-enabled as well. My main is heavily invested into Science and that gets a lot of adjustments in this coming patch. I hope it doesn't turn out badly.
One of the big things I noticed is how if you go heavy into damage you suffer big time in the area of survivability. BIG TIME. No joke, if I want to maintain the same damage output I have right now, with the new system in place, I am going to lose about 2k shield capacity, half of my shield hardness, going to lose about 10k hull and half of my hull strength. I am also going to take a hit in the subsystem power department, going to lose a lot of drain resistance, flow capacitors, power transfer rate and attack patterns too.
That is a drastic change.
I am going to lose a lot in this deal and not gain anything at all to make up for it. This is what I have learned from my 8 hours on tribble, 6 of those hours was spent getting my toon situated, unlocking reps, levelling up, getting abilities for my boffs, equipping my ship, etc...
^^ Quoted For Truth.
The nerf is HUGE. 'Core' skills, like maxed out shields (regens, hardness, cap), and maxed out hull (regens, cap, hardness, and hullplating), all of these will take an enornous hit under the new paradigm, assuming I want to maintain the same Tactical advantages I enjoyed before.
Other 'core' skills, like Warp Core Efficiency and/or Warp Core Potential, you can pretty much kiss those goodbye too. And I thought I could skimp out on all the Crowd Control stuff, like Subspace Decompiler; but guess what? They added Gravens to that category too, so now I maybe got some partgens left, but without gravens, that will be a major nerf too.
I'm getting the impression this was all done very deliberately, to purposely/disingenuous kill 'Jack of all trades' skill specs. As an Engineer, I think we will suffer the most. To maintain what I had, in terms of survivability, Bort basically wants me to give up everything Tactical.
Right now the trinity is dead, as things are, I do not want your heals, I do not need your heals. I do not want your tank and I do not need your tank.
However... When this new system goes live I may very well need your heals and I may very well need a tank.
Missions... No problem, I will be able to handle the episodes as I always have. But in STFS I am going to need help. Depending on what toon I am on, I may be the one helping.
Except you're not getting my help. None whatsoever. Or rather, I'll have nothing to spare, as all 'outgoing' heals were the first I needed to let go of entirely to come up with an even remotely comparable Offensive skill tree.
Is this what Bort wanted?! The Trinity was dead. But that was a good thing, really, as the Devs have always favored Tactical disproportionally as it was; but at least, as an Engineer, I could have a more-or-less Offensive build too. No longer the case, unless I'm willing to give up half my survivability.
And now will come the crowd that starts telling me how cool it is to have real 'choices' now; or that I really didn't need the survivability; or that I should just L2P, and and yada, yada, yada. But the simple fact of the matter is, that this new system constitutes a MAJOR nerf.
This new skill system is basically the 'make or break' for the future of STO.
If you talk to 3 different people, the first says that it's basically the same thing we have now, another says we can actually build better builds, and the 3rd person says we're being nerfed into the ground.
I'm going to wait and hold judgment, but I will say now that I won't take a massive nerf. They're free to do what they want, but if they change things too drastically, then they will see many players moving on, myself included.
Right now, I'm in a total 'spending freeze' pending the final version of this new skill system. I know that either way it won't be a 'Trinity System' which I'm fine with that. Either way, if any of these negative reports seem to be true then my days in STO are numbered.
With all due respect I don't know who you are or what your testing methodology is.
It is all good, I don't care if you know me or my methods. I don't know you either, so we are even.
Except that it's not all good. The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, so you should care, and you aren't 'even'. Stating that you don't care and making no effort to substantiate your claims makes them seem even more worthless.
I do not have to substantiate my "claims", they are fact, if you wish to verify them, you will have to log into Tribble yourself and see, or not and just wait until it goes live.
Burden of proof... This is not a courtroom, the only place where that is mandatory. How dare you anyway, what is wrong, I offended you? Because I do not know or care who you are? You are going to have to get over that. You think your post count means something? To me? hahahahahaha
You are a troll. I will not be replying further to you. All you want now is to puff up your post count by replying endlessly to my posts. I just came here to share with the OP what I had seen, what is fact, on the test server. I already did the legwork. Don't sit there doing nothing, not even willing to take the hour or so to download and patch the Tribble client and tell me that the burden of proof is on me. I already did enough. You want more you puffed-up ignorant fool? Do it your damn self. I have better things to do, I don't play with my food.
Comments
cant say i'm happy with the answer, cant say i'm really surprised either.. they do seem to have trouble creating stimulating end game content as it is, without needing to add extra mechanics or balancing to an encounter to suit roles other than dps, more dps, more different dps, and space barbie.
(yes, i appreciate 'space barbie' isn't actually a clearly defined role, but it is very much a theme here in game, so for the lack of being required to 'do' anything other than dps, the space barbie is staying)
so yes, i was disappointed with the answer to my question, however, i was very pleasantly surprised with the manner of its asking. the question was very well articulated by Kenna, and sounded quite fabulous, so that was something at least.
+5 to Borticus then
aye, agreed. its been made pretty clear that there is no requirement for anything other than dps to play the content in this game. the game is constantly pushing high dps, so even if anyone wanted to get into a proper threat pulling tanking role, it will likely pull more hostility and threat from the players than the instance, especially as tanking tends to translate to survivability over dps (although i am aware there are tankers pulling very high dps, but i'm pretty sure they wouldn't call themselves tanks) dps is, and still will be, the main source of threat generation.. so i'm seeing this skill as rather pointless, maybe even a little misleading.
I can see your point yet in the end a ship is build and outfitted with a specific duty in mind, and can be outfitted with other equipment to satisfy different needs. Now to me at least it makes sense to have a core-career that your captain focused their attention within, that than improves as you progress thru your career improving your understanding an applying this knowledge you gained to other areas you might delve into learning, such as tactical or engineering even if you are a science oriented officer. As such it would make sense you gain abilities in three ways thru this idea. First it is thru your primary career that you trained in during your time in the academy (the career you chose at creation). Next is abilities that you gained thru spending time/points training in other careers via the talent trees of that career (call this the sub-career). Finally you learn abilities that are a mixture of your primary career an your progress in the sub-careers you talented into an so applying your understanding of each to create a unique set of abilities for that mixture of talent/training. Also to me at least a tactical officer is on average going to have a better understanding an methods of using his tactical training than a engineering/science officer that switched/changed career to a tactical officer, when both of these officers have the same length of career (so say both would have been in starfleet/kd/romulan for 10 years) as well as barring any innate talent for that career.
An example of the above would be something like "brace for impact" an ability we all get, but now if we had buffs that could be applied to it based on how deeply you specced into the three talent trees, another could be "eps power transfer", or "subnucleonic Beam", and even "attack pattern alpha" which could different bonus buffs/effects based on what additional training you gained via your choice in talent tree. I mean imagine what kinds of tricks or alternations a captain that began to apply training in different studies to his tactical/science/engineering training.
Now to me the fact that one out of three of the careers being more prefered/useful is that players prefered tactical for it's obvious appeal in damage, as well as crypitic having been slower to improve an update the other two career options in time with changes an buffs applied to tactical. I would also say why have alts if you can just re-spec into being tactical/engineering/science on a single officer, since if you just by spending points into that specific career tree gain the same abilities as if you created that character from scratch as that, having different classes/careers for many gives them reply value by having even a slightly different style an leveling experience.
erm o/ guilty as charged! i totally grabbed the wrong end of the snake.
But she sure did have lots of photon torpedos O.o
That quote of "38" photon torpedoes is taken waaaay out of context and to ridiculous extremes.
Another thing to be wary of is that it might also open the way to extreme cookie cutter scenarios: Most people on the ground would be hauling around their mandatory medical tricorder. Most people in space would try to make themselves as close to what tactical is now.
For such a thing to truly work out, Cryptic would need to step in and spend a lot of time balancing things. Probably more than they're willing to.
I agree. But I also think STO has its own type of trinity system in place.
Everyone's primary focus is damage. Everyone has weapons. Everyone should have some basic competence just shooting things.
It's the secondary stuff that is (or, rather, has potential to be) interesting.
Tactical: Damage+Damage+Defense+Damage
Engineering: Damage+Threat management+Resistance+Healing
Science:Damage+Debuff+Control+Healing
Although I think STO drops the ball most of the time when it comes to utilizing anything but brute force dps, damage should be the first thing you focus on, before you start to go into exploring your secondary skills. I'd like if the secondary stuff could be made more prevalent, but I really don't think it should be 1 dimensionally so.
Sure their specialty would be tac, sci or eng but they could branch out and do more then just be a one trick pony all the time.
My character Tsin'xing
Have you been to tribble to test this new system out? If you have been there, like I have for the last 8 hours, then you would know what is coming. When this new system goes live some things are going to drastically change.
Right now the trinity is dead, as things are, I do not want your heals, I do not need your heals. I do not want your tank and I do not need your tank.
However... When this new system goes live I may very well need your heals and I may very well need a tank.
Missions... No problem, I will be able to handle the episodes as I always have. But in STFS I am going to need help. Depending on what toon I am on, I may be the one helping.
One of the big things I noticed is how if you go heavy into damage you suffer big time in the area of survivability. BIG TIME. No joke, if I want to maintain the same damage output I have right now, with the new system in place, I am going to lose about 2k shield capacity, half of my shield hardness, going to lose about 10k hull and half of my hull strength. I am also going to take a hit in the subsystem power department, going to lose a lot of drain resistance, flow capacitors, power transfer rate and attack patterns too.
That is a drastic change.
I am going to lose a lot in this deal and not gain anything at all to make up for it. This is what I have learned from my 8 hours on tribble, 6 of those hours was spent getting my toon situated, unlocking reps, levelling up, getting abilities for my boffs, equipping my ship, etc...
I know why they temporarily disabled previously transferred characters. They did not want the feedback, the backlash, the utter riot that would ensue if they let everyone see just how crippling the new system is really going to be. When you run an ISA with your toon and only do half the damage you are used to, either because you could not manage to go full damage because you wanted to live or because you died so many times because you did go full damage, you are going to be very upset.
Things are going to change, the whole game is about to change, the way we played this game is gone. It is time to learn to accept our new reality or bail out.
On a positive note, the ground game is getting a major buff. With just those measly little 10 points I was able to get 40 extra damage out of my weapon and an additional 13% crit hit rate. That is a MAJOR buff for the ground game. And I do not feel as though I lost anything at all in that deal.
So YAY for ground game and totally booooo for space.
Thank you very much for testing it out on tribble and giving feedback here. This is very much appreciated.
I find the changes you mentioned concerning to put it mildly.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
With all due respect I don't know who you are or what your testing methodology is.
I'll be waiting for them to enable tribble character transfers again before freaking out about reduced damage effectiveness, or to be specific: i do not believe you when you say that you have to heavily invest in tac and sacrifice survivability just to maintain your current damage numbers.
unless you are talking about exotic damage numbers, my own initial testing is indicating the opposite.
The real testing won't start till we can compare our holodeck toons 1:1 to tribble toons.
It is all good, I don't care if you know me or my methods. I don't know you either, so we are even.
yeah, but that was a cylon and a woman who can smash into a planet and shake it off like a paper cut a few days later.....besides Voyager needed to run out of gas every so often, otherwise it would have been one episode long. Janeway blows up the caretakers array, then sets the cruse control to drink a million gallons of coffee.
Except that it's not all good. The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, so you should care, and you aren't 'even'. Stating that you don't care and making no effort to substantiate your claims makes them seem even more worthless.
Yeah these are my thoughts too. My initial impressions were that if I focus on my core skills (the ones I have in Holodeck) and try to replicate those in Tribble (without going for the new skill bonuses) I'd actually be able to replicate my build with some points to spare. The people having trouble replicating their builds either seem to be using a very different skill point allocation or are mistaking some new skills as integral parts of their former builds.
I'm eagerly waiting for character copies to be re-enabled as well. My main is heavily invested into Science and that gets a lot of adjustments in this coming patch. I hope it doesn't turn out badly.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
^^ Quoted For Truth.
The nerf is HUGE. 'Core' skills, like maxed out shields (regens, hardness, cap), and maxed out hull (regens, cap, hardness, and hullplating), all of these will take an enornous hit under the new paradigm, assuming I want to maintain the same Tactical advantages I enjoyed before.
Other 'core' skills, like Warp Core Efficiency and/or Warp Core Potential, you can pretty much kiss those goodbye too. And I thought I could skimp out on all the Crowd Control stuff, like Subspace Decompiler; but guess what? They added Gravens to that category too, so now I maybe got some partgens left, but without gravens, that will be a major nerf too.
I'm getting the impression this was all done very deliberately, to purposely/disingenuous kill 'Jack of all trades' skill specs. As an Engineer, I think we will suffer the most. To maintain what I had, in terms of survivability, Bort basically wants me to give up everything Tactical.
Except you're not getting my help. None whatsoever. Or rather, I'll have nothing to spare, as all 'outgoing' heals were the first I needed to let go of entirely to come up with an even remotely comparable Offensive skill tree.
Is this what Bort wanted?! The Trinity was dead. But that was a good thing, really, as the Devs have always favored Tactical disproportionally as it was; but at least, as an Engineer, I could have a more-or-less Offensive build too. No longer the case, unless I'm willing to give up half my survivability.
And now will come the crowd that starts telling me how cool it is to have real 'choices' now; or that I really didn't need the survivability; or that I should just L2P, and and yada, yada, yada. But the simple fact of the matter is, that this new system constitutes a MAJOR nerf.
I assure you, I will not be 'eating crow' soon.
If you talk to 3 different people, the first says that it's basically the same thing we have now, another says we can actually build better builds, and the 3rd person says we're being nerfed into the ground.
I'm going to wait and hold judgment, but I will say now that I won't take a massive nerf. They're free to do what they want, but if they change things too drastically, then they will see many players moving on, myself included.
Right now, I'm in a total 'spending freeze' pending the final version of this new skill system. I know that either way it won't be a 'Trinity System' which I'm fine with that. Either way, if any of these negative reports seem to be true then my days in STO are numbered.
I do not have to substantiate my "claims", they are fact, if you wish to verify them, you will have to log into Tribble yourself and see, or not and just wait until it goes live.
Burden of proof... This is not a courtroom, the only place where that is mandatory. How dare you anyway, what is wrong, I offended you? Because I do not know or care who you are? You are going to have to get over that. You think your post count means something? To me? hahahahahaha
You are a troll. I will not be replying further to you. All you want now is to puff up your post count by replying endlessly to my posts. I just came here to share with the OP what I had seen, what is fact, on the test server. I already did the legwork. Don't sit there doing nothing, not even willing to take the hour or so to download and patch the Tribble client and tell me that the burden of proof is on me. I already did enough. You want more you puffed-up ignorant fool? Do it your damn self. I have better things to do, I don't play with my food.