I'm not surprised. All the canon ship's are inferior. They will sell because people are attached to their hero ship's. Performance is secondary.
This^
Getting pretty pissed off with having canon ships being inferior to cryptics TRIBBLE horrible abortions.
Wanted pilot maneuvers on the defiant because it looks so much fun but i will not buy those horrible pilot ships, To me it's not about being better or worse (i've been in my T5(U) Defiant almost exclusively since it launched way back). It was always about having a FUN MECHANIC on a CANON ship/ship i love.
Maybe time to boycott new ships altogether (or at least cryptic designs).
I know I kicked all this off and I see it has brought out all the pro and con-cryptic zealots but I just really was looking forward to the Defiant T6 and was holding out hope that Cryptic could see the excitement people had built up for it and really put out something special especially with a renewed focus on DS9 coming up.
I don't believe that the current T6 Defiant is a terrible ship but my point was that compared to the other recent escorts it is a total fail. Do you think people would buy new cars if the dealership told you when you asked why it didn't have airbags or power windows and they told you "well, because when the first cars came out they didn't have any so we have to stick to that guideline".
This is a game and Cryptic has alot of leverage to change what they want when people raise an issue just like changing the photon console to quantum so for everyone saying that people who are don't like the new Defiant are just whining babies and should keep their mouths shut well then let's go back to the photon console then right? I don't want a god ship I just want a Defiant and sadly Cryptic didn't deliver.
I don't follow. Why was the Valiant supposed to get something that the Andromedia/Pathfinder/Resolute and every other T6 remodel of a canon ship DIDN'T get?
"Compared to the other recent escorts it is a total fail" - I think most would agree that its at least better than the Hestia.
"I just want a Defiant" - but Cryptic didn't make a ship that met your personal expectations. Guess what - plenty of others had their own expectations regarding it too. And the whole thing is baffling, as we were never given any reason - none whatsoever - to beleive that it was going to be treated any diferently to any of the other T6 canon ship remakes.
So by you're logic we should never say anything? Just let them put out a Defiant that would make it maybe the 5th or 6th best escort currently in the game? I don't understand why some people take it so personally when people ask for a better ship, if nothing is ever said then nothing will ever get done. It's like it's offensive to some people when others speak out.
Some people must not have ever watched DS9. The Defiant and the BOP was MADE for Pilot maneuvers. In practically every battle episode the defiant/BOP was doing barrel rolls and other fancy piloting maneuvers.
Its mind boggling people can be so dense as to thinking the defiant didnt need pilot maneuvers. The Battle cloak i can live without, stock defiants in canon don't have cloaks, but the lack of pilot stuff makes it a epic fail.
Agreed if any canon ships were to get pilot maneuvers the BoP and defiant were the TOP CONTENDERS, I mean it was only shown on screen in like every battle they fought.
I expected people to crow ad nauseam about how awesomely superior they are for expecting people to complain. What I didn't expect was the sheer amount of complaining about complainers. It never ceases to amaze me how insulted they are about speculation, wishing, hoping and reasoning different from theirs. Yet here we get it in spades once again.
I don't follow. Why was the Valiant supposed to get something that the Andromedia/Pathfinder/Resolute and every other T6 remodel of a canon ship DIDN'T get?
The Command Battlecruisers don't offer the same level of competition as the Pilot Escorts. The Inspiration mechanic, while potentially very powerful in groups is fairly lackluster while playing solo. Command abilities aren't very good in general either, only being especially nice when you have too many ensign slots of one variety or another to fill.
And while the Hestia and the Alita have to compete with the Pilot Escorts the same as the Valiant, they have things going for them that while not necessarily making up the difference, they at least make for something interesting. Both the Hestia and Alita have a certain raw tankiness to them that the Pilot Escorts lack. The Hestia has three Lt. Comm stations, making it versatile. The Alita has a hangar. There's enough difference there that you might just fly them for that.
But the Valiant? Honestly, the Valiant wouldn't actually be terrible...if not for the fact that the Phantom exists! People have been saying for a year now that the Phantom IS the T6 Defiant. The Phantom has almost everything that people wanted in a T6 Defiant, except not actually being the Defiant. It's got the integrated cloak. It's got the console lay out. It's got the boff seats. It's tankie, yet fast.
What does the Valiant have that the Phantom doesn't?
Some people must not have ever watched DS9. The Defiant and the BOP was MADE for Pilot maneuvers. In practically every battle episode the defiant/BOP was doing barrel rolls and other fancy piloting maneuvers.
Its mind boggling people can be so dense as to thinking the defiant didnt need pilot maneuvers. The Battle cloak i can live without, stock defiants in canon don't have cloaks, but the lack of pilot stuff makes it a epic fail.
Agreed if any canon ships were to get pilot maneuvers the BoP and defiant were the TOP CONTENDERS, I mean it was only shown on screen in like every battle they fought.
so, if me and a buddy decloak and attack a ship in our bops at the same time it goes boom. no need to worry about dps plot level death!!!
I expected people to crow ad nauseam about how awesomely superior they are for expecting people to complain. What I didn't expect was the sheer amount of complaining about complainers. It never ceases to amaze me how insulted they are about speculation, wishing, hoping and reasoning different from theirs. Yet here we get it in spades once again.
any thoughts on complains about people complaining about complainers?
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Very happy with the look and stats on the KDF & Rom ships.
I'm not particularly interested in the defiant anyways. Of my 12 characters only 2 are Federation. MVAE has always been my favorite escort, but I use my Federation tact captain so infrequently, I can't even justify purchasing the Hestia. Ajax/Icarus & Scryer are good enough for him. (Have pilot 9pk)
The T'Varo was my Romulan bread-and-butter for many years, but that Captain recently moved onto the Morrigu, so in no rush.
The Kor however take my Money, I have 7 KDF toons.
I have to decide whether I want to buy one ship now and one later, or save up and get two of them & the defiant for free.
Thanks for the Advanced Light Cruiser, Allied Escort Bundles, Jem-Hadar Light Battlecruiser, and Mek'leth
New Content Wishlist
T6 updates for the Kamarag & Vor'Cha
Heavy Cruiser & a Movie Era Style AoY Utility Cruiser
Why should the Defiant have either of the former two? Pilot mechanics belong to the pilot escorts, and Feds have never had battle cloaks, right? Why should this be different?
If anything the Defiant should have Lt. Commander Pilot and Intelligence spots. The original purpose of the ship was surveillance to spy the Dominion and Founders since the threat of war, and the second purpose to be a war-speed warship.
So, Pilot and Intelligence is fitting. The console cloak is understandable but it definitely should have quad cannons, quantum torpedoes, and possibly 20% + hull.
If anything the Defiant should have Lt. Commander Pilot and Intelligence spots. The original purpose of the ship was surveillance to spy the Dominion and Founders since the threat of war, and the second purpose to be a war-speed warship.
So, Pilot and Intelligence is fitting. The console cloak is understandable but it definitely should have quad cannons, quantum torpedoes, and possibly 20% + hull.
Not quite... The Defiant was designed as a flying super-cannon to be used against the borg--nothing more, nothing less. It had no luxury facilities, almost no science capabilities, and nearly blew itself up more than once because it was simply too powerful for it's own good. If you can recall, the Design project was scrapped and the prototype Defiant was mothballed--only after the Dominion threat came about did Sisko pull the prototype out to use as a show of force against the Dominion. In short, it was a crappy design and it didn't work... at least not until O'Brien got his hands on it and duct-taped everything together.
The Defiant was designed as a flying super-cannon to be used against the borg--nothing more, nothing less. It had no luxury facilities, almost no science capabilities, and nearly blew itself up more than once because it was simply too powerful for it's own good. If you can recall, the Design project was scrapped and the prototype Defiant was mothballed--only after the Dominion threat came about did Sisko pull the prototype out to use as a show of force against the Dominion. In short, it was a crappy design and it didn't work... at least not until O'Brien got his hands on it and duct-taped everything together.
And this is why engineers design starships and not plot backed fools with a vendetta against the Borg.
If anything the Defiant should have Lt. Commander Pilot and Intelligence spots. The original purpose of the ship was surveillance to spy the Dominion and Founders since the threat of war, and the second purpose to be a war-speed warship.
So, Pilot and Intelligence is fitting. The console cloak is understandable but it definitely should have quad cannons, quantum torpedoes, and possibly 20% + hull.
Not quite... The Defiant was designed as a flying super-cannon to be used against the borg--nothing more, nothing less. It had no luxury facilities, almost no science capabilities, and nearly blew itself up more than once because it was simply too powerful for it's own good. If you can recall, the Design project was scrapped and the prototype Defiant was mothballed--only after the Dominion threat came about did Sisko pull the prototype out to use as a show of force against the Dominion. In short, it was a crappy design and it didn't work... at least not until O'Brien got his hands on it and duct-taped everything together.
It was some very good duct tape. Hell. Even the Founders envied the ship.
If anything the Defiant should have Lt. Commander Pilot and Intelligence spots. The original purpose of the ship was surveillance to spy the Dominion and Founders since the threat of war, and the second purpose to be a war-speed warship.
So, Pilot and Intelligence is fitting. The console cloak is understandable but it definitely should have quad cannons, quantum torpedoes, and possibly 20% + hull.
Not quite... The Defiant was designed as a flying super-cannon to be used against the borg--nothing more, nothing less. It had no luxury facilities, almost no science capabilities, and nearly blew itself up more than once because it was simply too powerful for it's own good. If you can recall, the Design project was scrapped and the prototype Defiant was mothballed--only after the Dominion threat came about did Sisko pull the prototype out to use as a show of force against the Dominion. In short, it was a crappy design and it didn't work... at least not until O'Brien got his hands on it and duct-taped everything together.
I'll get it because it's the Defiant, reminds me of the A-10 Warthog in it design concept of building the ship around it's guns
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I'm not surprised. All the canon ship's are inferior. They will sell because people are attached to their hero ship's. Performance is secondary.
This^
Getting pretty pissed off with having canon ships being inferior to cryptics TRIBBLE horrible abortions.
Wanted pilot maneuvers on the defiant because it looks so much fun but i will not buy those horrible pilot ships, To me it's not about being better or worse (i've been in my T5(U) Defiant almost exclusively since it launched way back). It was always about having a FUN MECHANIC on a CANON ship/ship i love.
Maybe time to boycott new ships altogether (or at least cryptic designs).
Given that lockbox alien ships are top of the line (except for the scimitar for some reason), the second line is the Cryptic in-house designs, that means that the iconic ships are third rate junk.
As for a boycott, I'm already there. I'm flying my T5-U Excelsior and have no purchase plans for the foreseeable future. If I wanted original ship designs- I'll switch to Star Citizen and get my fill of them.
Very disappointed that it doesn't have 5/2 weapons layout. So disappointed I may actually pass on this ship. Very sad indeed
Okay. So, you what to do, right? I mean, I know turrets and omni-directional beams are all super rare or hideously expensive and all, boy would it be great to be able to craft one.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again."
-Dedication plaque of the Federation Starship U.S.S. Merkava
If only my boss would think that kindly of me if I screwed up! Or more importantly, our costumers! Its not self entitled because we´re discussing a product. We want to buy it, they want to sell it. We´re being asked to pay the same as for other more capable and fun to use ships. Unless of course, its going to be a freeby they give away. In that case I will happily take back everything i´ve said against the valiant.
(...)
Lol! You´re not the only one saying that! Its funny, at first glance it´d feel like a complete ripoff but I think most people would be happy to do what you describe, myself included!
So from a company POV: people are willing to pay for a Defiant, people are willing to pay for what they consider vastly superior? Why should I make only one sale instead of two? Your boss would be happy.
This is a game and Cryptic has alot of leverage to change what they want when people raise an issue just like changing the photon console to quantum so for everyone saying that people who are don't like the new Defiant are just whining babies and should keep their mouths shut well then let's go back to the photon console then right? I don't want a god ship I just want a Defiant and sadly Cryptic didn't deliver.
And I want things, too, and I won't get them. And yes, Cryptic has a lot of options, but they also have to keep some variation and some balance (we can argue about how much both of them are in this game but that's besides the point). A "Pilot T6 Defiant" in the vein of the pilot escorts wouldn't break balance but it would be no variety at all (about which I am sure there would be a multi page complaint thread here).
So by you're logic we should never say anything? Just let them put out a Defiant that would make it maybe the 5th or 6th best escort currently in the game? I don't understand why some people take it so personally when people ask for a better ship, if nothing is ever said then nothing will ever get done. It's like it's offensive to some people when others speak out.
That you don't like it - well, say it, by all means. But the wording "total fail" is quite aggressive and uncalled for, so other people may jump to the defence. Also: why should the defiant be any better than "5th or 6th", if I take that for a fact (not everybody seems to agree)? Why should it be the best? Because some players want it to? Others probably don't.
And (general response, not to brakkenn specifically anymore): while I understand that people like flying iconic TV series classics, it makes sense that they are not cutting edge designs anymore. Even if reretrorerefitted, they are a couple of decades old as designs. Technology marches on. I'm not saying they can't get a pilot seat, just that it makes sense that other designs are more advanced than the Defiant by now. It may or may not have been the pilot ship of it's time, just in the way that the race cars of the 1930s were the best back then but today's cars play in a different league, in the same vein modern pilot ships could be even more piloty than the original Defiant so that - as viewed from 2410 - it doesn't even really qualify as pilot anymore.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Complaints without basis, lacking any sort of perspective in game design, diversity, balance,....
Thats the thing, the complaints about the Valiant are based on game design and balance.
Or the lack of it.
Its really simple.
The Fleet Valiant will cost you 3.5k zen.
The Ajax costs you 3k zen, and is simply better in every way.
The Valiant has exactly one sales argument: Its a DEFIANT !!!
Sorry, but thats not enough.
For you, at least.
But mechanical power of a ship isn't the only reason to want something. And if power is the only reason, then you know that Cryptic will have to keep to resort to power creep all the time.
The Pilot maneuvers are missing, sure. But the ship has the potential for cloaking, which the Fed Pilot ships don't have.
It has more hull, and more weapon power, but less turn rate and a slower speed (though high speed is not neccessarily desirable, if you worry about the duratin of your attack runs, and even the Pilot Traits and skills mostly benefit from impulse setting or engine power, but never from actual speed.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If only my boss would think that kindly of me if I screwed up!
Perfect marketing strategies to give people a reason to buy more ships for various reasons (power, canon looks, traits, admiralty, console set bonuses) and gameplay variety (ship leveling, fleet holdings for fleet ships, ship upgrades) to switch ships, pay for console load-outs, different gear, different weapon types you may call TRIBBLE-up, but I assure you I buy into it because I'm appreciating the ship diversity and Cryptic/PWE's balance books as good as they possibly can with what they have to work with.
If there's a TRIBBLE-up, it isn't on the end of the consumers or producers in this service transaction.
Its not self entitled because we´re discussing a product.
Oh? I guess I stand corrected, so do carry on the 'discussion' which goes along these lines:
- Integrated cloaks (we want what stealth intel specialty ships have, but we don't need to pay for the cloak console or use up a console slot like other cloak-capable fed ships must)
- Battle cloaks (forget gameplay-related faction differences, we're the Defiant and we're Feds)
- "4/3 weapons" (we want promo ship Annorax treatment of +1 fore weapon but for the price of a c-store canon-based ship; we want 5/2 because some escorts have it)
- OP specs or "=Total Fail" (we will only buy loads of power-selling and it must be on our hero ship canon skin because 'my money')
- "boycott new ships altogether/cryptic designs" (I Love my Canon T5(U) skin so you can't have T6 Defiant skin or other ships in the game, now I need your pilot thrusters as well to go with my fun new pilot seating mechanics)
- 3 piece bonus (Quad Cannons need to boost the set because we're fed and Roms have a 3 piece set)
- Already fleet quality (because Defiant so "get some brains")
- 3 Ship Trait variants (the other Defiants each needs a T6 variant but only as long as they rival AHOD, Sup, Recip, etc.)
We´re being asked to pay the same as for other more capable and fun to use ships. Unless of course, its going to be a freeby they give away. In that case I will happily take back everything i´ve said against the valiant.
In retrospect its a foolish thing to want. Cryptic has always been against making the iconics remotely good in fear of hurting their other ship´s sales, but people still hope.
Your boss would approve of the lightbulb moment, however faint it was.
"Remotely good" as if T6F is so far behind T6 specialty that it makes them outright bad.
We´ll have to wait and see what happens when the sale goes live. If Cryptic is happy with the sales it´ll stay as it is, if not they´ll add something to it to sweeten the deal. Either way, I hope people walk away feeling good with their purchase no matter what side of the argument they´re on.
They gave feds a free Defiant skin remaster, and instantly changed the Photon to Quantum torps even before the sale went live. I guess it's easier to "discuss" than to be informed.
"I just want a Defiant" - but Cryptic didn't make a ship that met your personal expectations. Guess what - plenty of others had their own expectations regarding it too. And the whole thing is baffling, as we were never given any reason - none whatsoever - to beleive that it was going to be treated any diferently to any of the other T6 canon ship remakes.
Everyone has their 'hero' ship. For whatever reason, I've been a fan of the Ambassador since it first appeared on screen in TNG. I'm sure it'll get a T6 update at one point as well, probably taking the original draft of the Ambassador as the skin. It'll look great and fly great, but... I don't expect it to be a stats-killer.
It'll probably have a command seat. Probably a temporal trait of some type, to play into the "Yesterday's Enterprise" episode. But it'll always be a middle-of-the-road engineering cruiser with some decent tac potential. I'll buy it the moment it comes out, but I'm also not going to freak out over the very much anticipated facts that it
1) won't be all that much better than the T5U Fleet Ambassador;
2) won't have Command abilities, just the one Lt.Cmdr. seat;
3) will likely fall behind the T6 Galaxy and Gal-X as far as strength; and
4) won't stray much beyond the eng-heavy console layout and 4/4 setup
Players need to curb their expectations, and realize that this type of incremental update is exactly what was demanded.
At no point did the devs ever say that T6 ships were going to be killers. They specifically, repeatedly said that T6 would not eclipse T5 at any point - and they were clearly honest in that way. But let's remember that players were screaming all types of things at Cryptic when the general expectation somehow became that the devs were lying, and that T6 would actually break the game.
And now, somehow, players are crying foul over the fact that T6 isn't invalidating all of our original ships? That T6 isn't far and above the T5 ships? And are we really demanding power creep to such a level that each T6 ship needs to be better than the other T6 ship released just before it?
- "4/3 weapons" (we want promo ship Annorax treatment of +1 fore weapon but for the price of a c-store canon-based ship; we want 5/2 because some escorts have it)
"Some escorts"? More like almost half of the T6 raiders/escorts in the game do. A 5/2 layout is not exactly rare anymore. We're well passed the days when the Bug Ship was the best ship in the game.
The Valiant needs something, and a console set of dubious worth is not it! It's not especially tough. It's not especially fast. It has no special powers. No integrated or iconic features. Everything about the ship screams "watered down Phantom".
I say integrate the Torp console into the ship akin to the tail gun on the Patrol Escort or give it a 5/2 to make it front loaded as the Defiant was meant to be.
The Valiant needs something, and a console set of dubious worth is not it! It's not especially tough. It's not especially fast. It has no special powers. No integrated or iconic features. Everything about the ship screams "watered down Phantom".
Yep. It wasn't designed to be better than the Phantom. Otherwise T6 Defiant = OP + Power Creep.
It's a slight improvement over the T5 Defiant. Nothing more, nothing less.
I say integrate the Torp console into the ship akin to the tail gun on the Patrol Escort or give it a 5/2 to make it front loaded as the Defiant was meant to be.
No ship in the game is as it "was meant to be." The Galaxy-class, for example, has 11 wide-arc single-beam phaser arrays at mk X, plus 3 photon torp tubes. That's a far cry from the 4/4 layout that's realized in gameplay.
The Defiant, as it is "meant to be" is not quite what anyone would like. It would be a 3/2, with quad-cannons locked at Mk XII and two torps in the front, and an omni-beam and a torp in the rear. It wouldn't have access to slipstream tech, nor the cloak - the latter of which was installed as a one-of-a-kind on loan to the two ships bearing the name and registry USS Defiant NX-74205, and the former was en experimental technology used only by the USS Voyager and USS Aventine in soft canon.
People aren´t asking for it to be a super ship, just for it to be as good as the pilot ships. In retrospect its a foolish thing to want.
And therein lies the absurdity of the entire "Valiant sucks" whining (it's flat-out whining now; not even an argument). Expecting an Unspecialized ship to match a Specialized ship is ridiculous. Like asking a Prius to crush cars instead of a Monster truck. Or a Corolla to be fully outfitted with the bells and whistles of a Lexus. Or an transport aircraft to do the job of bomber aircraft.
The Valiant is a standard base escort with an iconic name attached to one of its variants. Yes, the 2-pc set bonus sucks for it, and could use something better for the Valiant. That is a reasonable request. But expecting Pilot Maneuvers, Integrated Cloak, Battle Cloak, or 5/2 loadouts is NOT a reasonable request. If it has to have something to make it unique, it has to come from the 2-pc set, which is not worthwhile for the Valiant.
If the 2-pc instead granted a buff to turn rate and shield durability to bring it close to that of a Pilot Escort, that would have been plenty sufficient at the cost of 2 consoles; making them relevant enough to rival the usual RCS or whatever generic consoles that are too niche to use. The Command ships did it right with making their set bonuses do the job of a [ResAll] RCS console to help with their turn rates. There's no reason why the set bonuses for the Valiant couldn't also get a similar benefit. If nothing else, turn rate and shield durability, or turn rate and a ResAll passive would help with making the ship a bit tankier for an escort while warranting use of the 2-pc set.
Again, we don't actually know that the second Defiant class 'USS Defiant' (formerly USS Sao Paulo) even had a cloak. There isn't really any reason to beleive that it did - the cloak was intended for Gamma Quadrant snooping and was likely destroyed with the first Defiant.
I'm not sure what reason the Romulans would have to give Starfleet a replacement by that point in the war, nor why Starfleet would even want one.
I think it was established that the second Defiant's cloak came from the Klingons, but TBH I don't remember.
Either way, the only Defiant-class ship with a cloak was the Sisko's USS Defiant. I think it's plenty well enough that Cryptic went as far as to allow all Defiants to use a cloak - yet again, there's crying for more.
Complaints without basis, lacking any sort of perspective in game design, diversity, balance,....
Thats the thing, the complaints about the Valiant are based on game design and balance.
Or the lack of it.
Its really simple.
The Fleet Valiant will cost you 3.5k zen.
The Ajax costs you 3k zen, and is simply better in every way.
The Valiant has exactly one sales argument: Its a DEFIANT !!!
Sorry, but thats not enough.
Game design means different ship classes, as many in this topic have repeatedly tried to explain but apparently failed. A specialty ship (Intel, Command, Pilot, etc.) is a different class and therefore somewhat better by design, or in this case all round better, then canon-based and other C-Store ships.
The Intels were not a 9-Pack mega bundle as the Commands and Pilots were, and so did not get fleet level. This 'defiant' cross-faction pack isn't one either, nevermind the fact that they are Canon re-makes, so they naturally don't get fleet level out of the box. The Fleet Phantom is superior to the Fleet Valiant and it costs the same.
Phantom's Specs vs Valiant:
-2,200 hull
+100 crew (not a good thing)
+0.02 impulse
+5 inertia
-5 weapon power, +5 engine power
+built in basic cloak
+Reciprocity
+Active Sensor Arrays
So to you and and to so many others here, it's not about the cost, which has been consistent, or about the stats, which is what was expected, but about the Valiant not having access to abilities and stats from a different ship class altogether.
I think it was established that the second Defiant's cloak came from the Klingons, but TBH I don't remember.
Either way, the only Defiant-class ship with a cloak was the Sisko's USS Defiant. I think it's plenty well enough that Cryptic went as far as to allow all Defiants to use a cloak - yet again, there's crying for more.
I think this is only due to the games' MMO nature. The Defiant and the Dreadnaught Cruiser can cloak because they could do so on-screen and players want/going to play "that one ship". In-game logic, there's only one player with a hero ship, the other players don't actually exist. The NPC fleet around you doesn't cloak with neither the Defiants nor with the Dreadnaught Cruisers. They separate, launch pets, probably get to use Torpedo Barrage but they don't cloak. Klingon Raiders, Romulan NPCs, they cloak. Thus, the usual ships of the line in starfleet don't cloak, even in STO. Just the player has the special snowflake ship with a special cloak.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Maybe time to boycott new ships altogether (or at least cryptic designs).
I'm sure that worked out well for the KDF and their boycotting of the Gorn Science Vessels, which was cited by the Devs themselves as the reason why they just didn't make any more Science Vessels for the KDF for a long time.
I'm also sure that worked out well for the angry Intrepid fans that upgraded to T5U off the bat who were demanding a free Pathfinder after upgrading so soon, who got ignored anyway and the Pathfinder resulted in untold sales success for a ship the Devs themselves said they hadn't originally intended to release but decided to because they already did all the work on it aside from the Pathfinder visuals in the first place.
If it weren't a console, but something baked into the ship like the Patrol Escort's tail gun, we'd have something, but we don't. In all honesty, unique consoles are a terrible way to give ships flavor. Rep consoles are generally the best available, and no C-Store console will ever get close.
This would be a good idea to finally shut down the 5/2 cryfest; give all 3 ships a built-in 5th Fore weapon, even if it's a click weapon like the Dreadnought Lance rather than an active weapon like the Cannons on the Dyson or Patrol Escort. Defiant can get a cluster photon torpedo weapon. Mirrored over to the Kor. Or maybe the Kor can get an overloaded Quantum torpedo like the crazy Klingon came up in the past with in one of the Iconian missions (that one quantum torp with 6 warheads). Then Malem would get a Plasma Cluster torpedo.
What does the Valiant have that the Phantom doesn't?
An iconic name and an updated classic skin to sell it to the majority who won't care about things like stats and just want to play their favorite ship. Period. The real hardcore fans. Not the fans who want their ship as perfect and OP as possible so that they too could RP as Siskos rampaging through enemies with impunity. Conveniently forgetting that Sisko did well with a flawed ship and a box of scraps, and players too can generally do the same with the Valiant and the "box of scraps" available to us that are reputation sets, Fleet consoles, and so on.
Comments
This^
Getting pretty pissed off with having canon ships being inferior to cryptics TRIBBLE horrible abortions.
Wanted pilot maneuvers on the defiant because it looks so much fun but i will not buy those horrible pilot ships, To me it's not about being better or worse (i've been in my T5(U) Defiant almost exclusively since it launched way back). It was always about having a FUN MECHANIC on a CANON ship/ship i love.
Maybe time to boycott new ships altogether (or at least cryptic designs).
So by you're logic we should never say anything? Just let them put out a Defiant that would make it maybe the 5th or 6th best escort currently in the game? I don't understand why some people take it so personally when people ask for a better ship, if nothing is ever said then nothing will ever get done. It's like it's offensive to some people when others speak out.
Agreed if any canon ships were to get pilot maneuvers the BoP and defiant were the TOP CONTENDERS, I mean it was only shown on screen in like every battle they fought.
The Command Battlecruisers don't offer the same level of competition as the Pilot Escorts. The Inspiration mechanic, while potentially very powerful in groups is fairly lackluster while playing solo. Command abilities aren't very good in general either, only being especially nice when you have too many ensign slots of one variety or another to fill.
And while the Hestia and the Alita have to compete with the Pilot Escorts the same as the Valiant, they have things going for them that while not necessarily making up the difference, they at least make for something interesting. Both the Hestia and Alita have a certain raw tankiness to them that the Pilot Escorts lack. The Hestia has three Lt. Comm stations, making it versatile. The Alita has a hangar. There's enough difference there that you might just fly them for that.
But the Valiant? Honestly, the Valiant wouldn't actually be terrible...if not for the fact that the Phantom exists! People have been saying for a year now that the Phantom IS the T6 Defiant. The Phantom has almost everything that people wanted in a T6 Defiant, except not actually being the Defiant. It's got the integrated cloak. It's got the console lay out. It's got the boff seats. It's tankie, yet fast.
What does the Valiant have that the Phantom doesn't?
so, if me and a buddy decloak and attack a ship in our bops at the same time it goes boom. no need to worry about dps plot level death!!!
any thoughts on complains about people complaining about complainers?
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
I'm not particularly interested in the defiant anyways. Of my 12 characters only 2 are Federation. MVAE has always been my favorite escort, but I use my Federation tact captain so infrequently, I can't even justify purchasing the Hestia. Ajax/Icarus & Scryer are good enough for him. (Have pilot 9pk)
The T'Varo was my Romulan bread-and-butter for many years, but that Captain recently moved onto the Morrigu, so in no rush.
The Kor however take my Money, I have 7 KDF toons.
I have to decide whether I want to buy one ship now and one later, or save up and get two of them & the defiant for free.
If anything the Defiant should have Lt. Commander Pilot and Intelligence spots. The original purpose of the ship was surveillance to spy the Dominion and Founders since the threat of war, and the second purpose to be a war-speed warship.
So, Pilot and Intelligence is fitting. The console cloak is understandable but it definitely should have quad cannons, quantum torpedoes, and possibly 20% + hull.
And this is why engineers design starships and not plot backed fools with a vendetta against the Borg.
It was some very good duct tape. Hell. Even the Founders envied the ship.
I'll get it because it's the Defiant, reminds me of the A-10 Warthog in it design concept of building the ship around it's guns
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Given that lockbox alien ships are top of the line (except for the scimitar for some reason), the second line is the Cryptic in-house designs, that means that the iconic ships are third rate junk.
As for a boycott, I'm already there. I'm flying my T5-U Excelsior and have no purchase plans for the foreseeable future. If I wanted original ship designs- I'll switch to Star Citizen and get my fill of them.
Okay. So, you what to do, right? I mean, I know turrets and omni-directional beams are all super rare or hideously expensive and all, boy would it be great to be able to craft one.
-Dedication plaque of the Federation Starship U.S.S. Merkava
So from a company POV: people are willing to pay for a Defiant, people are willing to pay for what they consider vastly superior? Why should I make only one sale instead of two? Your boss would be happy.
And I want things, too, and I won't get them. And yes, Cryptic has a lot of options, but they also have to keep some variation and some balance (we can argue about how much both of them are in this game but that's besides the point). A "Pilot T6 Defiant" in the vein of the pilot escorts wouldn't break balance but it would be no variety at all (about which I am sure there would be a multi page complaint thread here).
That you don't like it - well, say it, by all means. But the wording "total fail" is quite aggressive and uncalled for, so other people may jump to the defence. Also: why should the defiant be any better than "5th or 6th", if I take that for a fact (not everybody seems to agree)? Why should it be the best? Because some players want it to? Others probably don't.
And (general response, not to brakkenn specifically anymore): while I understand that people like flying iconic TV series classics, it makes sense that they are not cutting edge designs anymore. Even if reretrorerefitted, they are a couple of decades old as designs. Technology marches on. I'm not saying they can't get a pilot seat, just that it makes sense that other designs are more advanced than the Defiant by now. It may or may not have been the pilot ship of it's time, just in the way that the race cars of the 1930s were the best back then but today's cars play in a different league, in the same vein modern pilot ships could be even more piloty than the original Defiant so that - as viewed from 2410 - it doesn't even really qualify as pilot anymore.
Thats the thing, the complaints about the Valiant are based on game design and balance.
Or the lack of it.
Its really simple.
The Fleet Valiant will cost you 3.5k zen.
The Ajax costs you 3k zen, and is simply better in every way.
The Valiant has exactly one sales argument: Its a DEFIANT !!!
Sorry, but thats not enough.
But mechanical power of a ship isn't the only reason to want something. And if power is the only reason, then you know that Cryptic will have to keep to resort to power creep all the time.
The Pilot maneuvers are missing, sure. But the ship has the potential for cloaking, which the Fed Pilot ships don't have.
It has more hull, and more weapon power, but less turn rate and a slower speed (though high speed is not neccessarily desirable, if you worry about the duratin of your attack runs, and even the Pilot Traits and skills mostly benefit from impulse setting or engine power, but never from actual speed.)
Perfect marketing strategies to give people a reason to buy more ships for various reasons (power, canon looks, traits, admiralty, console set bonuses) and gameplay variety (ship leveling, fleet holdings for fleet ships, ship upgrades) to switch ships, pay for console load-outs, different gear, different weapon types you may call TRIBBLE-up, but I assure you I buy into it because I'm appreciating the ship diversity and Cryptic/PWE's balance books as good as they possibly can with what they have to work with.
If there's a TRIBBLE-up, it isn't on the end of the consumers or producers in this service transaction.
Oh? I guess I stand corrected, so do carry on the 'discussion' which goes along these lines:
- Integrated cloaks (we want what stealth intel specialty ships have, but we don't need to pay for the cloak console or use up a console slot like other cloak-capable fed ships must)
- Battle cloaks (forget gameplay-related faction differences, we're the Defiant and we're Feds)
- "4/3 weapons" (we want promo ship Annorax treatment of +1 fore weapon but for the price of a c-store canon-based ship; we want 5/2 because some escorts have it)
- OP specs or "=Total Fail" (we will only buy loads of power-selling and it must be on our hero ship canon skin because 'my money')
- "boycott new ships altogether/cryptic designs" (I Love my Canon T5(U) skin so you can't have T6 Defiant skin or other ships in the game, now I need your pilot thrusters as well to go with my fun new pilot seating mechanics)
- 3 piece bonus (Quad Cannons need to boost the set because we're fed and Roms have a 3 piece set)
- Already fleet quality (because Defiant so "get some brains")
- 3 Ship Trait variants (the other Defiants each needs a T6 variant but only as long as they rival AHOD, Sup, Recip, etc.)
So you want the Valiant for free?
Your boss would approve of the lightbulb moment, however faint it was.
"Remotely good" as if T6F is so far behind T6 specialty that it makes them outright bad.
They gave feds a free Defiant skin remaster, and instantly changed the Photon to Quantum torps even before the sale went live. I guess it's easier to "discuss" than to be informed.
Everyone has their 'hero' ship. For whatever reason, I've been a fan of the Ambassador since it first appeared on screen in TNG. I'm sure it'll get a T6 update at one point as well, probably taking the original draft of the Ambassador as the skin. It'll look great and fly great, but... I don't expect it to be a stats-killer.
It'll probably have a command seat. Probably a temporal trait of some type, to play into the "Yesterday's Enterprise" episode. But it'll always be a middle-of-the-road engineering cruiser with some decent tac potential. I'll buy it the moment it comes out, but I'm also not going to freak out over the very much anticipated facts that it
1) won't be all that much better than the T5U Fleet Ambassador;
2) won't have Command abilities, just the one Lt.Cmdr. seat;
3) will likely fall behind the T6 Galaxy and Gal-X as far as strength; and
4) won't stray much beyond the eng-heavy console layout and 4/4 setup
Players need to curb their expectations, and realize that this type of incremental update is exactly what was demanded.
At no point did the devs ever say that T6 ships were going to be killers. They specifically, repeatedly said that T6 would not eclipse T5 at any point - and they were clearly honest in that way. But let's remember that players were screaming all types of things at Cryptic when the general expectation somehow became that the devs were lying, and that T6 would actually break the game.
And now, somehow, players are crying foul over the fact that T6 isn't invalidating all of our original ships? That T6 isn't far and above the T5 ships? And are we really demanding power creep to such a level that each T6 ship needs to be better than the other T6 ship released just before it?
Lolz, buy it or don't buy it, you all do not have to ge drama queens.
"Some escorts"? More like almost half of the T6 raiders/escorts in the game do. A 5/2 layout is not exactly rare anymore. We're well passed the days when the Bug Ship was the best ship in the game.
The Valiant needs something, and a console set of dubious worth is not it! It's not especially tough. It's not especially fast. It has no special powers. No integrated or iconic features. Everything about the ship screams "watered down Phantom".
I say integrate the Torp console into the ship akin to the tail gun on the Patrol Escort or give it a 5/2 to make it front loaded as the Defiant was meant to be.
Yep. It wasn't designed to be better than the Phantom. Otherwise T6 Defiant = OP + Power Creep.
It's a slight improvement over the T5 Defiant. Nothing more, nothing less.
No ship in the game is as it "was meant to be." The Galaxy-class, for example, has 11 wide-arc single-beam phaser arrays at mk X, plus 3 photon torp tubes. That's a far cry from the 4/4 layout that's realized in gameplay.
The Defiant, as it is "meant to be" is not quite what anyone would like. It would be a 3/2, with quad-cannons locked at Mk XII and two torps in the front, and an omni-beam and a torp in the rear. It wouldn't have access to slipstream tech, nor the cloak - the latter of which was installed as a one-of-a-kind on loan to the two ships bearing the name and registry USS Defiant NX-74205, and the former was en experimental technology used only by the USS Voyager and USS Aventine in soft canon.
Pixels bring out the worst in people
And therein lies the absurdity of the entire "Valiant sucks" whining (it's flat-out whining now; not even an argument). Expecting an Unspecialized ship to match a Specialized ship is ridiculous. Like asking a Prius to crush cars instead of a Monster truck. Or a Corolla to be fully outfitted with the bells and whistles of a Lexus. Or an transport aircraft to do the job of bomber aircraft.
The Valiant is a standard base escort with an iconic name attached to one of its variants. Yes, the 2-pc set bonus sucks for it, and could use something better for the Valiant. That is a reasonable request. But expecting Pilot Maneuvers, Integrated Cloak, Battle Cloak, or 5/2 loadouts is NOT a reasonable request. If it has to have something to make it unique, it has to come from the 2-pc set, which is not worthwhile for the Valiant.
If the 2-pc instead granted a buff to turn rate and shield durability to bring it close to that of a Pilot Escort, that would have been plenty sufficient at the cost of 2 consoles; making them relevant enough to rival the usual RCS or whatever generic consoles that are too niche to use. The Command ships did it right with making their set bonuses do the job of a [ResAll] RCS console to help with their turn rates. There's no reason why the set bonuses for the Valiant couldn't also get a similar benefit. If nothing else, turn rate and shield durability, or turn rate and a ResAll passive would help with making the ship a bit tankier for an escort while warranting use of the 2-pc set.
I think it was established that the second Defiant's cloak came from the Klingons, but TBH I don't remember.
Either way, the only Defiant-class ship with a cloak was the Sisko's USS Defiant. I think it's plenty well enough that Cryptic went as far as to allow all Defiants to use a cloak - yet again, there's crying for more.
Game design means different ship classes, as many in this topic have repeatedly tried to explain but apparently failed. A specialty ship (Intel, Command, Pilot, etc.) is a different class and therefore somewhat better by design, or in this case all round better, then canon-based and other C-Store ships.
The Intels were not a 9-Pack mega bundle as the Commands and Pilots were, and so did not get fleet level. This 'defiant' cross-faction pack isn't one either, nevermind the fact that they are Canon re-makes, so they naturally don't get fleet level out of the box. The Fleet Phantom is superior to the Fleet Valiant and it costs the same.
Phantom's Specs vs Valiant:
-2,200 hull
+100 crew (not a good thing)
+0.02 impulse
+5 inertia
-5 weapon power, +5 engine power
+built in basic cloak
+Reciprocity
+Active Sensor Arrays
So to you and and to so many others here, it's not about the cost, which has been consistent, or about the stats, which is what was expected, but about the Valiant not having access to abilities and stats from a different ship class altogether.
I think this is only due to the games' MMO nature. The Defiant and the Dreadnaught Cruiser can cloak because they could do so on-screen and players want/going to play "that one ship". In-game logic, there's only one player with a hero ship, the other players don't actually exist. The NPC fleet around you doesn't cloak with neither the Defiants nor with the Dreadnaught Cruisers. They separate, launch pets, probably get to use Torpedo Barrage but they don't cloak. Klingon Raiders, Romulan NPCs, they cloak. Thus, the usual ships of the line in starfleet don't cloak, even in STO. Just the player has the special snowflake ship with a special cloak.
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I'm sure that worked out well for the KDF and their boycotting of the Gorn Science Vessels, which was cited by the Devs themselves as the reason why they just didn't make any more Science Vessels for the KDF for a long time.
I'm also sure that worked out well for the angry Intrepid fans that upgraded to T5U off the bat who were demanding a free Pathfinder after upgrading so soon, who got ignored anyway and the Pathfinder resulted in untold sales success for a ship the Devs themselves said they hadn't originally intended to release but decided to because they already did all the work on it aside from the Pathfinder visuals in the first place.
This would be a good idea to finally shut down the 5/2 cryfest; give all 3 ships a built-in 5th Fore weapon, even if it's a click weapon like the Dreadnought Lance rather than an active weapon like the Cannons on the Dyson or Patrol Escort. Defiant can get a cluster photon torpedo weapon. Mirrored over to the Kor. Or maybe the Kor can get an overloaded Quantum torpedo like the crazy Klingon came up in the past with in one of the Iconian missions (that one quantum torp with 6 warheads). Then Malem would get a Plasma Cluster torpedo.
An iconic name and an updated classic skin to sell it to the majority who won't care about things like stats and just want to play their favorite ship. Period. The real hardcore fans. Not the fans who want their ship as perfect and OP as possible so that they too could RP as Siskos rampaging through enemies with impunity. Conveniently forgetting that Sisko did well with a flawed ship and a box of scraps, and players too can generally do the same with the Valiant and the "box of scraps" available to us that are reputation sets, Fleet consoles, and so on.