I CAN'T USE THE NEW DPS FORMULA ON THAT ONE TOTAL FAIL LOLZ!!!!
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I have a fleet BOP and I just laugh at the t6 version, more shield HP for 3000 zen that's wonderful.
And by the way, the B'Rotlh skin for fleet BOP is still not working going on what 2 years so you guys kind of owe me 200 zen, and, the kar'fi model is malfunctioning too
I wouldn't say the ship is a total fail (it's not). But it seems inferior to pilot escorts in almost every way. Pilot escorts have:
- a better shield and impulse modifier
- a 5/2 weapon configuration
- better turn rate
- a commander AND a lieutenant pilot hybrid seat
- pilot maneuvers
- free choice between a 5/4/2, a 5/3/3 and a 5/2/4 console configuration
The Valiant has slightly stronger hull (1200 hit points), 5 more crew and 5 more weapon power. I must say I'm a little disappointed.
They will be priced the same as all T6 ship bundles. 3000 zen each, 6000 zen for all three. Then you can pay for the ship modules for the fleet versions. but you COULD get those off the exchange.
Don't forget the limited time discount of 2500 Zen each or 5000 Zen bundle from release until Midnight Server time on Sunday.
Yeah, the OP whining and declaring the new Defiant a "total fail" for failing to have two features it was never going to have to begin with is pretty ridiculous.
And it was completely anticipated by many posters on the forums that such rage would happen.
What's ironic is that the whining is far larger than the Pathfinder fans or the Galaxy and Galaxy-X fans, despite both having a far larger fanbase. Even the Excelsior fans have more reason to whine; they didn't even get a classic model update and got a watered down Andromeda setup.
Is it not obvious yet that the spec specific ships get special abilities that are not shared with any other ships? I thought it was.
So because pilot ships came out before the Defiant then that is some law that says it must remain separate? Do you really think that the Defiant is not a pilot ship? It was THE pilot ship of Star Trek.
And exactly who was the "ace pilot officer" on that Defiant???
Meanwhile, as I look to the Delta Quadrant with a helmsman selected because of his "pilot" credentials...
Retrorefit T6 Pathfinder, please?
Well, one of Dax' previous hosts was a pilot. (And died young.) I believe she actually held the helm on the Defiant.
But no ship in Star Trek canon makes crazy maneuvers like the Pilot Escorts do, really. The Defiant was certainly agile, but not that agile.
I guess I'll have to live with my 93 % uptime of Cannon Scatter Volley on the Defiant without pilot maneuvers.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The problem is that the Pilot Escorts are great. Maybe too great.
Every Escort released from now on will be compared to the Icarus/Ajax/Mercury and none of them will be as good... Ever.
Still, the Defiants trait will be a must have for Cannon users, and people will buy it for the fact that it's a Defiant.
It's important to keep things in perspective, just because Ship A isn't as good in some areas as Ship B doesn't make Ship B a bad ship. The problem is that the Pilot ships are just so good that it's hard for anything else to compare.
If Pilot ships didn't exist, this T6 Defiant would look a lot better. It would still be out classed by the Phantom but it would at least be close. They could have narrowed the gap quite a bit if they gave the T6 Defiant access to Intel abilities or the ability to use Pilot Maneuvers. They also could have given it a bit of a boost by making it a Fleet Level ship on release, but they like to reserve that for 'Mega Pack' ships.
The problem is that the Pilot Escorts are great. Maybe too great.
Every Escort released from now on will be compared to the Icarus/Ajax/Mercury and none of them will be as good... Ever.
Still, the Defiants trait will be a must have for Cannon users, and people will buy it for the fact that it's a Defiant.
It's important to keep things in perspective, just because Ship A isn't as good in some areas as Ship B doesn't make Ship B a bad ship. The problem is that the Pilot ships are just so good that it's hard for anything else to compare.
If Pilot ships didn't exist, this T6 Defiant would look a lot better. It would still be out classed by the Phantom but it would at least be close. They could have narrowed the gap quite a bit if they gave the T6 Defiant access to Intel abilities or the ability to use Pilot Maneuvers. They also could have given it a bit of a boost by making it a Fleet Level ship on release, but they like to reserve that for 'Mega Pack' ships.
Still, it's a good ship.. not great, but good.
Far from being a fail. It will definitely sell.
It will sell thats not even debatable
But you are given an option to either buy the T6 defiant or a pilot ship which would you choose.
They will be priced the same as all T6 ship bundles. 3000 zen each, 6000 zen for all three. Then you can pay for the ship modules for the fleet versions. but you COULD get those off the exchange.
Don't forget the limited time discount of 2500 Zen each or 5000 Zen bundle from release until Midnight Server time on Sunday.
Yeah, the OP whining and declaring the new Defiant a "total fail" for failing to have two features it was never going to have to begin with is pretty ridiculous.
And it was completely anticipated by many posters on the forums that such rage would happen.
What's ironic is that the whining is far larger than the Pathfinder fans or the Galaxy and Galaxy-X fans, despite both having a far larger fanbase. Even the Excelsior fans have more reason to whine; they didn't even get a classic model update and got a watered down Andromeda setup.
Or compare it to the Tier 6 Akira - in what way is that able to compete with the Pilot Escorts?
But I guess it's the Defiant. The ship that single-handedly won the Dominion War. (Well, at least in the minds of the Defiant fans. ) It must be the uber-agile and uber-DPS killer monster hero warship dreadnought Borg destroyer ship exploder, or it's "total fail".
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Wow, is 5k zen for all 3 really to be expected here?
Despite what peeps think of the stats those 3 ships come with one of the best traits I have ever seen (if one likes cannons as much as I do).
Cryptic themselves said sales for bundles are pretty great when offering them with a limited time discount, after having experimented with it for awhile. And even if you never use one of the ships from the Bundle, it may as well be a better buy to get all 3 ships rather than buy one then the other later.
As well, the last couple of C-store ship releases always had a release discount, from Thursday through Sunday.
Cryptic has been doing us a favor of announcing the ship(s) a few days ahead in order to let players plan their expenses in advance.
I totally agree that it was unrealisitic to expect the Valiant to have the pilot abilities, it simply wouldn't have followed the pattern. However, the boff layout is inferior to nearly every T6 escort, and at least one T5. The universal should have been an ensign and the engineer a lt cmdr. Look at the Hesita. As it stands the Patrol escort retrofit, the Phantom, the Hestia and the other two ships in this bundle have (2) Lt Cmdrs. In fact if we only compare the Valiant to the other two ships in the bundle it's sadly lacking. As stated (1) lt cmdr to (2) on the Romulan and Klingon ships. The lack of a cloaking device, but a two piece set the requires a cloaking device. You'll need to get that from another ship, you'll have to sacrifice a console slot for it and you'll then notice that the two piece set is totally useless as the cool down on the cloak is not longer than the time it will take you to dispatch the ships you are fighting and then get out of combat to reengage it. Then, lets consider the romulan ship has a three piece set while neither the klingon nor federation ship does. Also, both the Captain level defiant and the commander BoP have quad cannons which should have been used as part of a 3 piece set. The quad cannons are so iconic to the Defiant that it's not just strange they were left out, but silly. I could go on all day about this, but I'll leave it with one final thought. I agree that it makes far more sense that these ships should have had intel lt cmdr hybrids....the cloak and the two piece set sort of lean more to sneaking in, than blazing in doing flips and barrel rolls, which none of these ships can do anyway. Oh well. I like the BoP, I like the Warbird, I'll use the Valiant to get the trait then go back to my Patrol Escort Retrofit, because it's honestly superior in every way, well except that -1 turn rate.
Wow, is 5k zen for all 3 really to be expected here?
Despite what peeps think of the stats those 3 ships come with one of the best traits I have ever seen (if one likes cannons as much as I do).
Cryptic themselves said sales for bundles are pretty great when offering them with a limited time discount, after having experimented with it for awhile. And even if you never use one of the ships from the Bundle, it may as well be a better buy to get all 3 ships rather than buy one then the other later.
As well, the last couple of C-store ship releases always had a release discount, from Thursday through Sunday.
Cryptic has been doing us a favor of announcing the ship(s) a few days ahead in order to let players plan their expenses in advance.
Thy for info there. If it’s really 5k for all 3 over the weekend I check my budget and go for it.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I totally agree that it was unrealisitic to expect the Valiant to have the pilot abilities, it simply wouldn't have followed the pattern. However, the boff layout is inferior to nearly every T6 escort, and at least one T5. The universal should have been an ensign and the engineer a lt cmdr. Look at the Hesita. As it stands the Patrol escort retrofit, the Phantom, the Hestia and the other two ships in this bundle have (2) Lt Cmdrs. In fact if we only compare the Valiant to the other two ships in the bundle it's sadly lacking. As stated (1) lt cmdr to (2) on the Romulan and Klingon ships. The lack of a cloaking device, but a two piece set the requires a cloaking device. You'll need to get that from another ship, you'll have to sacrifice a console slot for it and you'll then notice that the two piece set is totally useless as the cool down on the cloak is not longer than the time it will take you to dispatch the ships you are fighting and then get out of combat to reengage it. Then, lets consider the romulan ship has a three piece set while neither the klingon nor federation ship does. Also, both the Captain level defiant and the commander BoP have quad cannons which should have been used as part of a 3 piece set. The quad cannons are so iconic to the Defiant that it's not just strange they were left out, but silly. I could go on all day about this, but I'll leave it with one final thought. I agree that it makes far more sense that these ships should have had intel lt cmdr hybrids....the cloak and the two piece set sort of lean more to sneaking in, than blazing in doing flips and barrel rolls, which none of these ships can do anyway. Oh well. I like the BoP, I like the Warbird, I'll use the Valiant to get the trait then go back to my Patrol Escort Retrofit, because it's honestly superior in every way, well except that -1 turn rate.
Yes, it's different. But you either adapt to it and make the ship work you remain stagnant in your gameplay and stick to just one thing always and forever.
Ships in STO are, by gamedesign, like underpants, not a commitment as it would be canonically to a captain. You do different stuff with different ships and not paste one style of gameplay to all the ships and merely have costume changes.
Now, no arguing about quad cannons and three-piece sets and what not, but I find it silly to deem everything TRIBBLE because a certain style doesn't fit with the ship as if one would be forced to buy that ship and lose the possibility to play like they want to.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
What's ironic is that the whining is far larger than the Pathfinder fans or the Galaxy and Galaxy-X fans, despite both having a far larger fanbase. Even the Excelsior fans have more reason to whine; they didn't even get a classic model update and got a watered down Andromeda setup.
Why would you think the Pathfinder, Galaxy, or Galaxy-X have bigger fanbases than the Defiant?
If Pilot ships didn't exist, this T6 Defiant would look a lot better. It would still be out classed by the Phantom but it would at least be close. They could have narrowed the gap quite a bit if they gave the T6 Defiant access to Intel abilities or the ability to use Pilot Maneuvers. They also could have given it a bit of a boost by making it a Fleet Level ship on release, but they like to reserve that for 'Mega Pack' ships.
Still, it's a good ship.. not great, but good.
Far from being a fail. It will definitely sell.
I disagree with that. Even if the Pilot Escorts did not exist, the Hestia and Alita still put the Valiant to shame. the only thing the Valiant brings to the table that is of note is the extra turn. Said extra turn is all but inconsequential with all the turn boost available in modern consoles. An argument could be made for the Valiant´s tac lt. CMDR slot, maybe mixing it with the newly introduced torp boosts, but its something tangential and not something that is of great value to the average player on its own.
Even without the pilot escorts the Valaint would still be at the bottom of the pile. Granted, it´d be fourth place instead of seventh, so it wouldn´t seem as bad. It might be sensible to say that the valiant is actually in third place though. The pilot escorts all tie for first, the hestia, alita and phantom tie for second (or the two groups switch depending on preference), leaving the Valiant as third place on its own.
Or compare it to the Tier 6 Akira - in what way is that able to compete with the Pilot Escorts?
[/quote]
The Alita is the tank escort and has a small craft bay. Its always had a niche. The pilot escorts are incredibly fun to fly but they´re not tanks nor can they launch fighters.
I'd rather just pay 3000zen to get a defiant skin on my pilot ship. Scaled down to the proper size of course. I had no idea those pilot ships would be the only ones the rest of forever.
Put yourselves in a Devs shoes and for a split second look beyond your limited self-entitled perspectives then hop in here and start hammering away that the ship needs everything and evermore because [even more self-entitled rants that have no basis because I am the best who cares about the rest and everything].
I feel bad for replying to this topic keeping it on front page just one split second longer than it needs to be, but it also must be said: the Defiant rage was well predicted a long time ago, and here its, and it's even worse than those who predicted it.
If only my boss would think that kindly of me if I screwed up! Or more importantly, our costumers! Its not self entitled because we´re discussing a product. We want to buy it, they want to sell it. We´re being asked to pay the same as for other more capable and fun to use ships. Unless of course, its going to be a freeby they give away. In that case I will happily take back everything i´ve said against the valiant.
People aren´t asking for it to be a super ship, just for it to be as good as the pilot ships. In retrospect its a foolish thing to want. Cryptic has always been against making the iconics remotely good in fear of hurting their other ship´s sales, but people still hope.
We´ll have to wait and see what happens when the sale goes live. If Cryptic is happy with the sales it´ll stay as it is, if not they´ll add something to it to sweeten the deal. Either way, I hope people walk away feeling good with their purchase no matter what side of the argument they´re on.
I'd rather just pay 3000zen to get a defiant skin on my pilot ship. Scaled down to the proper size of course. I had no idea those pilot ships would be the only ones the rest of forever.
Lol! You´re not the only one saying that! Its funny, at first glance it´d feel like a complete ripoff but I think most people would be happy to do what you describe, myself included!
Yeah, the OP whining and declaring the new Defiant a "total fail" for failing to have two features it was never going to have to begin with is pretty ridiculous.
And it was completely anticipated by many posters on the forums that such rage would happen.
I also predict, **when** the T6 Scimitar's stats are officially previewed, that people will complain that:
- T6 Scimitar < T5U Scimitar
- T6 Scimitar doesn't have 9-12 weapon slots
- T6 Scimitar doesn't have Pilot Maneuvers
- T6 Scimitar doesn't have Cmdr Hybrid Station or Dual Spec Access
But I guess it's the Defiant. The ship that single-handedly won the Dominion War. (Well, at least in the minds of the Defiant fans. ) It must be the uber-agile and uber-DPS killer monster hero warship dreadnought Borg destroyer ship exploder, or it's "total fail".
This does, sadly, seem to be the basis for quite a few of the 'Valiant is fail' rants.
Its amazing how so many people have ignored the well established pattern of canon ship releases. I really can't fathom why some thought that the Valiant class was deserving of receiving something that the Andromedia/Pathfinder/Resolute/Alita/Hestia didn't get.
The Valiant isn't a specialty ship. It was never going to be a specialty ship. In which case I really can't fathom how some players managed to convince themselves that it would be. Sadly, Defiant rage was well predicted a long time ago, and here its, and it's even worse than those of us who predicted it thought it would be.
Is it really worse than predicted? I mean, we've seen ship rages before, this isn't extraordinary, now, is it?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Why don't we put things into perspective for a moment here? Take a queue from my earlier post and forget game mechanics--ignore the numbers and look at the generalities. I hope we can all agree that the higher tiers equate to newer, more upgraded designs, right? So T6 is expected to be better than a T5 of the same type, but not necessarily better than a lower tier of a different type--because it has a different purpose and function. So, then, what is the purpose and function of the Escort versus the Pilot ships?
Looking at the Playable Starship chart on STOwiki, it seems to me that the Escorts are roughly analogous to real-world naval Destroyers; while the Pilot ships more closely resemble Destroyer Escorts in their intended purpose.
If we can agree on (or at least accept, for the sake of this argument/illustration) that analogy, then it makes perfect sense that Pilot ships are, and should be, slightly better on a 1-to-1 comparison with Escorts of the same Tier.
Their real-world analogues, the Destroyer Escorts were used to provide escort and defense for unarmed, slow-moving (often civilian) convoys. They carried smaller caliber guns but boasted a massive anti-sub torpedo compliment, and they were more maneuverable because they had to be able to get in between an enemy vessel and take fire away from the convoys they were protecting. In short they were highly specialized in design--perfect for one job and one job only. They couldn't keep up against an enemy Carrier without the whole team of DEs in the convoy with them.
Destroyers, on the other hand, were faster with fewer torpedoes, but larger guns and slightly heavier armor. They were slightly less maneuverable and had sub-par sonar (because sonar was effectively useless above 20 knots). Their job was to escort the large capital ships like Cruisers, Battleships, and Carriers... They didn't have to do all the fighting--just protect the big ships long enough for the big ships to get into position to unleash fiery death from their big guns and give time for aircraft to launch from the Carrier decks. They were more generalized, capable of performing a wider variety of assignments--they had to be able to withstand a Cruiser or Battleship barrage, at least for a while--but they could never perform as well as the Destroyer Escorts in a head-to-head fight against a submarine.
Now, take that information... put the numbers back in, and tell me it still doesn't make perfect sense, that the stats aren't exactly what they're supposed to be.
But shouldn't "universal stations" be, you know, like universal?
Universal stations can't hold pilot or commander (for obvious cash reasons), there is no room for interpretation of the word "universal", so we gotta rename them don't we?
It is in a sense, because whilst the rants are not worse in themselves, the context is. It isn't quite so bad when the ranting has a basis in reality, but the majority of this ranting seems to be based upon the Devs not adhereing to personal pipedreams, in complete ignorance to how EVERY previous T6 canon ship release has worked, about the Valiant having a 5/2 weapon layout, pilot manouvers and a battle cloak.
Okay, then we probably had different expectations - I expected that some people hoped/believed/wished that the Defiant would get Pilot ship abilities and a different weapon loadout. I expected that people would be ignorant of all the other anon retrofits. I expected people wanted battle cloak or at least integrated claok. And I expected that would be the basis of any rants.
I also expected people to hope for the BOP to no longer have a BO lot less than other ships of its tier.
What I didn't expected was that the Defiant would get a Lt.Universal or the BOP would actually go the Dual Lt.Cmdr way. I consider these nice surprises.
On a tangent:
I also didn't realize fully that the torpedo console is... a console. Not something you slot as a weapon. Which could make a huge difference in its potency, I think, because it could mean it's effectively a bonus weapon slot. Depending on the cooldowns and damage output, of course.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
On a tangent:
I also didn't realize fully that the torpedo console is... a console. Not something you slot as a weapon. Which could make a huge difference in its potency, I think, because it could mean it's effectively a bonus weapon slot. Depending on the cooldowns and damage output, of course.
If it weren't a console, but something baked into the ship like the Patrol Escort's tail gun, we'd have something, but we don't. In all honesty, unique consoles are a terrible way to give ships flavor. Rep consoles are generally the best available, and no C-Store console will ever get close.
I know I kicked all this off and I see it has brought out all the pro and con-cryptic zealots but I just really was looking forward to the Defiant T6 and was holding out hope that Cryptic could see the excitement people had built up for it and really put out something special especially with a renewed focus on DS9 coming up.
I don't believe that the current T6 Defiant is a terrible ship but my point was that compared to the other recent escorts it is a total fail. Do you think people would buy new cars if the dealership told you when you asked why it didn't have airbags or power windows and they told you "well, because when the first cars came out they didn't have any so we have to stick to that guideline".
This is a game and Cryptic has alot of leverage to change what they want when people raise an issue just like changing the photon console to quantum so for everyone saying that people who are don't like the new Defiant are just whining babies and should keep their mouths shut well then let's go back to the photon console then right? I don't want a god ship I just want a Defiant and sadly Cryptic didn't deliver.
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Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Cryptic and something sensible? i take it your new to the game lol jk
And by the way, the B'Rotlh skin for fleet BOP is still not working going on what 2 years so you guys kind of owe me 200 zen, and, the kar'fi model is malfunctioning too
- a better shield and impulse modifier
- a 5/2 weapon configuration
- better turn rate
- a commander AND a lieutenant pilot hybrid seat
- pilot maneuvers
- free choice between a 5/4/2, a 5/3/3 and a 5/2/4 console configuration
The Valiant has slightly stronger hull (1200 hit points), 5 more crew and 5 more weapon power. I must say I'm a little disappointed.
Don't forget the limited time discount of 2500 Zen each or 5000 Zen bundle from release until Midnight Server time on Sunday.
What's ironic is that the whining is far larger than the Pathfinder fans or the Galaxy and Galaxy-X fans, despite both having a far larger fanbase. Even the Excelsior fans have more reason to whine; they didn't even get a classic model update and got a watered down Andromeda setup.
But no ship in Star Trek canon makes crazy maneuvers like the Pilot Escorts do, really. The Defiant was certainly agile, but not that agile.
I guess I'll have to live with my 93 % uptime of Cannon Scatter Volley on the Defiant without pilot maneuvers.
Wow, is 5k zen for all 3 really to be expected here?
Despite what peeps think of the stats those 3 ships come with one of the best traits I have ever seen (if one likes cannons as much as I do).
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
The problem is that the Pilot Escorts are great. Maybe too great.
Every Escort released from now on will be compared to the Icarus/Ajax/Mercury and none of them will be as good... Ever.
Still, the Defiants trait will be a must have for Cannon users, and people will buy it for the fact that it's a Defiant.
It's important to keep things in perspective, just because Ship A isn't as good in some areas as Ship B doesn't make Ship B a bad ship. The problem is that the Pilot ships are just so good that it's hard for anything else to compare.
If Pilot ships didn't exist, this T6 Defiant would look a lot better. It would still be out classed by the Phantom but it would at least be close. They could have narrowed the gap quite a bit if they gave the T6 Defiant access to Intel abilities or the ability to use Pilot Maneuvers. They also could have given it a bit of a boost by making it a Fleet Level ship on release, but they like to reserve that for 'Mega Pack' ships.
Still, it's a good ship.. not great, but good.
Far from being a fail. It will definitely sell.
It will sell thats not even debatable
But you are given an option to either buy the T6 defiant or a pilot ship which would you choose.
Or compare it to the Tier 6 Akira - in what way is that able to compete with the Pilot Escorts?
But I guess it's the Defiant. The ship that single-handedly won the Dominion War. (Well, at least in the minds of the Defiant fans.
Cryptic themselves said sales for bundles are pretty great when offering them with a limited time discount, after having experimented with it for awhile. And even if you never use one of the ships from the Bundle, it may as well be a better buy to get all 3 ships rather than buy one then the other later.
As well, the last couple of C-store ship releases always had a release discount, from Thursday through Sunday.
Cryptic has been doing us a favor of announcing the ship(s) a few days ahead in order to let players plan their expenses in advance.
Thy for info there. If it’s really 5k for all 3 over the weekend I check my budget and go for it.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Yes, it's different. But you either adapt to it and make the ship work you remain stagnant in your gameplay and stick to just one thing always and forever.
Ships in STO are, by gamedesign, like underpants, not a commitment as it would be canonically to a captain. You do different stuff with different ships and not paste one style of gameplay to all the ships and merely have costume changes.
Now, no arguing about quad cannons and three-piece sets and what not, but I find it silly to deem everything TRIBBLE because a certain style doesn't fit with the ship as if one would be forced to buy that ship and lose the possibility to play like they want to.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Why would you think the Pathfinder, Galaxy, or Galaxy-X have bigger fanbases than the Defiant?
I disagree with that. Even if the Pilot Escorts did not exist, the Hestia and Alita still put the Valiant to shame. the only thing the Valiant brings to the table that is of note is the extra turn. Said extra turn is all but inconsequential with all the turn boost available in modern consoles. An argument could be made for the Valiant´s tac lt. CMDR slot, maybe mixing it with the newly introduced torp boosts, but its something tangential and not something that is of great value to the average player on its own.
Even without the pilot escorts the Valaint would still be at the bottom of the pile. Granted, it´d be fourth place instead of seventh, so it wouldn´t seem as bad. It might be sensible to say that the valiant is actually in third place though. The pilot escorts all tie for first, the hestia, alita and phantom tie for second (or the two groups switch depending on preference), leaving the Valiant as third place on its own.
Or compare it to the Tier 6 Akira - in what way is that able to compete with the Pilot Escorts?
[/quote]
The Alita is the tank escort and has a small craft bay. Its always had a niche. The pilot escorts are incredibly fun to fly but they´re not tanks nor can they launch fighters.
If only my boss would think that kindly of me if I screwed up! Or more importantly, our costumers! Its not self entitled because we´re discussing a product. We want to buy it, they want to sell it. We´re being asked to pay the same as for other more capable and fun to use ships. Unless of course, its going to be a freeby they give away. In that case I will happily take back everything i´ve said against the valiant.
People aren´t asking for it to be a super ship, just for it to be as good as the pilot ships. In retrospect its a foolish thing to want. Cryptic has always been against making the iconics remotely good in fear of hurting their other ship´s sales, but people still hope.
We´ll have to wait and see what happens when the sale goes live. If Cryptic is happy with the sales it´ll stay as it is, if not they´ll add something to it to sweeten the deal. Either way, I hope people walk away feeling good with their purchase no matter what side of the argument they´re on.
Lol! You´re not the only one saying that! Its funny, at first glance it´d feel like a complete ripoff but I think most people would be happy to do what you describe, myself included!
I also predict, **when** the T6 Scimitar's stats are officially previewed, that people will complain that:
- T6 Scimitar < T5U Scimitar
- T6 Scimitar doesn't have 9-12 weapon slots
- T6 Scimitar doesn't have Pilot Maneuvers
- T6 Scimitar doesn't have Cmdr Hybrid Station or Dual Spec Access
Kind of surprising it didn't get that treatment, considering how heavily favored that ship was by the devs for so long.
Looking at the Playable Starship chart on STOwiki, it seems to me that the Escorts are roughly analogous to real-world naval Destroyers; while the Pilot ships more closely resemble Destroyer Escorts in their intended purpose.
If we can agree on (or at least accept, for the sake of this argument/illustration) that analogy, then it makes perfect sense that Pilot ships are, and should be, slightly better on a 1-to-1 comparison with Escorts of the same Tier.
Their real-world analogues, the Destroyer Escorts were used to provide escort and defense for unarmed, slow-moving (often civilian) convoys. They carried smaller caliber guns but boasted a massive anti-sub torpedo compliment, and they were more maneuverable because they had to be able to get in between an enemy vessel and take fire away from the convoys they were protecting. In short they were highly specialized in design--perfect for one job and one job only. They couldn't keep up against an enemy Carrier without the whole team of DEs in the convoy with them.
Destroyers, on the other hand, were faster with fewer torpedoes, but larger guns and slightly heavier armor. They were slightly less maneuverable and had sub-par sonar (because sonar was effectively useless above 20 knots). Their job was to escort the large capital ships like Cruisers, Battleships, and Carriers... They didn't have to do all the fighting--just protect the big ships long enough for the big ships to get into position to unleash fiery death from their big guns and give time for aircraft to launch from the Carrier decks. They were more generalized, capable of performing a wider variety of assignments--they had to be able to withstand a Cruiser or Battleship barrage, at least for a while--but they could never perform as well as the Destroyer Escorts in a head-to-head fight against a submarine.
Now, take that information... put the numbers back in, and tell me it still doesn't make perfect sense, that the stats aren't exactly what they're supposed to be.
But shouldn't "universal stations" be, you know, like universal?
Universal stations can't hold pilot or commander (for obvious cash reasons), there is no room for interpretation of the word "universal", so we gotta rename them don't we?
"The boff slots formerly known as universal"?
I also expected people to hope for the BOP to no longer have a BO lot less than other ships of its tier.
What I didn't expected was that the Defiant would get a Lt.Universal or the BOP would actually go the Dual Lt.Cmdr way. I consider these nice surprises.
On a tangent:
I also didn't realize fully that the torpedo console is... a console. Not something you slot as a weapon. Which could make a huge difference in its potency, I think, because it could mean it's effectively a bonus weapon slot. Depending on the cooldowns and damage output, of course.
If it weren't a console, but something baked into the ship like the Patrol Escort's tail gun, we'd have something, but we don't. In all honesty, unique consoles are a terrible way to give ships flavor. Rep consoles are generally the best available, and no C-Store console will ever get close.
I don't believe that the current T6 Defiant is a terrible ship but my point was that compared to the other recent escorts it is a total fail. Do you think people would buy new cars if the dealership told you when you asked why it didn't have airbags or power windows and they told you "well, because when the first cars came out they didn't have any so we have to stick to that guideline".
This is a game and Cryptic has alot of leverage to change what they want when people raise an issue just like changing the photon console to quantum so for everyone saying that people who are don't like the new Defiant are just whining babies and should keep their mouths shut well then let's go back to the photon console then right? I don't want a god ship I just want a Defiant and sadly Cryptic didn't deliver.