This article actually works against your argument if you have read it all. The small summary at the top is based on this article which says the only exception from the tv and movie rule are two novels that were supposed to be canon but weren't actually made into episodes and served as writer's guides for certain characters but technically, since they weren't actually shot, they still aren't canon. They probably share the technical manuals' state.
The "fluid" remark reads here as whenver someone on the writing staff of a new show or movie feels he or she wants to include non-canon elements and thus making them canon they can. The remark does not imply canon is some wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey entity everybody can change because he or she agrees or disagrees. EDIT: Unless the attitude of CBS/Paramount changes, of course.
Which it has, more than once.
I like to take the stance that Marvel comics uses. Multiple universes exist and these may have significant differences from each other. Thus STO is it's own universe separate from the TV shows.... which spanned several universes themselves....
Yes and no. (Why I didn't vote.) STO is what a lot of fan-basses would call "soft canon". This means that it is canon until something that is "hard canon" overrides it.
Things that are soft canon in terms of Star Trek:
novels
games
fan-made content/shows (Renegades, Axanar, etc.)
Things that are hard canon:
official shows
official movies
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
It has once to my knowledge, when they invluded TAS due to a DVD release into canon. You make it sound like they go back and forth constantly. But Star Trek canon is not complicated, at all.
Mind you, what we personally like and dislike or headcanon or even what was prior to CBS/Paramount owning Star Trek is one thing. Official canon is rather clearly defined though, there's no big discussion over that which is my point and what I think @bobbydazlers doesn't understand.
People often think that if something is "not canon" it means it is bad or devalues whatever piece of licensed or unllicensed product they like. But it really has nothing to do with that. There's just canon ("In-univese history of events") and then there's non-canon. Canon is what all future works, canonical or not canonical, are based on. Non-canonical (or "soft-canonical" if you insist) has no bearing on any of that.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I'm going to say no it's not part of the prime universe but a split off reality from when spock tried to stop the Hobus, and this alternate reality was the aftermath of him failing.
Basically a future "what if" universe much like the Newest movies.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
I'm surprised that no-one has brought up the actual reason as to why all licensed works (IE: non-TV/movie) are strictly non-canon, and the reason isn't exactly a secret.
Shortly into TNG's run, Paramount's lawyers advised the studio to make sure that their writers never used any story ideas that did not originate with them, as they were concerned about the authors coming after them for royalties for it. I think this might have been triggered by the appearance of an Orion ship in an onscreen graphic that was produced for the FASA RPG -- something that Paramount itself didn't have the rights to. Since then, all licensed works (including STO) are not only non-canon, they are also a sort of anti-canon: because of Paramount's (and thus now CBS's) internal rules, none of the ideas/images/stories/etc. seen here, or elsewhere, can ever be used in a Star Trek television show or movie, and thus can never be canon.
Needless to say, this has created problems, since mistakes and bad decisions made by the show's writers are annoyingly permanent, and good stories from licensed works can never truely be part of the fold. The story in 2009's 'Star Trek', for example, would have made a lot more sense if the backstory from the 'Countdown' prequel comic could have been referenced when Spock was explaining Nero's backstory, but since it was in a book, they couldn't touch it...
Here is some actual PROOF that this game ISN'T canon: even though books aren't canon, they at least have to follow the canon events that took place. And yet, no books outside of the path to 2409 follows STO's storyline. That simple fact is proof that STO isn't canon.
It has once to my knowledge, when they invluded TAS due to a DVD release into canon. You make it sound like they go back and forth constantly. But Star Trek canon is not complicated, at all.
Mind you, what we personally like and dislike or headcanon or even what was prior to CBS/Paramount owning Star Trek is one thing. Official canon is rather clearly defined though, there's no big discussion over that which is my point and what I think @bobbydazlers doesn't understand.
People often think that if something is "not canon" it means it is bad or devalues whatever piece of licensed or unllicensed product they like. But it really has nothing to do with that. There's just canon ("In-univese history of events") and then there's non-canon. Canon is what all future works, canonical or not canonical, are based on. Non-canonical (or "soft-canonical" if you insist) has no bearing on any of that.
Actually TAS was originally canon. It becoming non-canon was the first change in the canon policy.
I'm surprised that no-one has brought up the actual reason as to why all licensed works (IE: non-TV/movie) are strictly non-canon, and the reason isn't exactly a secret.
Shortly into TNG's run, Paramount's lawyers advised the studio to make sure that their writers never used any story ideas that did not originate with them, as they were concerned about the authors coming after them for royalties for it. I think this might have been triggered by the appearance of an Orion ship in an onscreen graphic that was produced for the FASA RPG -- something that Paramount itself didn't have the rights to. Since then, all licensed works (including STO) are not only non-canon, they are also a sort of anti-canon: because of Paramount's (and thus now CBS's) internal rules, none of the ideas/images/stories/etc. seen here, or elsewhere, can ever be used in a Star Trek television show or movie, and thus can never be canon.
Needless to say, this has created problems, since mistakes and bad decisions made by the show's writers are annoyingly permanent, and good stories from licensed works can never truely be part of the fold. The story in 2009's 'Star Trek', for example, would have made a lot more sense if the backstory from the 'Countdown' prequel comic could have been referenced when Spock was explaining Nero's backstory, but since it was in a book, they couldn't touch it...
It sounds pretty likely, because that's what actually happened. Not sure if the Orion graphic was the actual trigger for it, but from what I remember from back then, the timing was about right.
You thought of canon?
My thought of canon?
His thought of canon?
`\ (°_°) /`
CBS' thoughts of canon.
Seriously, what's so hard to grasp about this concept?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
You thought of canon?
My thought of canon?
His thought of canon?
`\ (°_°) /`
CBS' thoughts of canon.
Seriously, what's so hard to grasp about this concept?
OK, and since CBS hasn't pronounced/classified STO as Canon. Then it is not. Or maybe it is?
See from startrek.com article
"But canon is not something set in stone; even events in some of the movies have been called into question as to whether they should be considered canon! Ultimately, the fans, the writers and the producers may all differ on what is considered canon and the very idea of what is canon has become more fluid, especially as there isn't a single voice or arbiter to decide."
Wishful thinking tends to muddy those waters, unfortunately.
I get that. There's stuff you like and stuff you dislike, that natural. Still, it is futile to discuss about "canon", there's just one version of Star Trek canon and it's in the IP-holder's will if and to what degree things become canon.
I welcome lively debates and ideas, but the claim "Star Trek canon is complicated" or "loose" is entirely false. And people have to learn that "canon" and "not canon" do not value nor devalue certain works.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Wishful thinking tends to muddy those waters, unfortunately.
I get that. There's stuff you like and stuff you dislike, that natural. Still, it is futile to discuss about "canon", there's just one version of Star Trek canon and it's in the IP-holder's will if and to what degree things become canon.
I welcome lively debates and ideas, but the claim "Star Trek canon is complicated" or "loose" is entirely false. And people have to learn that "canon" and "not canon" do not value nor devalue certain works.
Seriously, what's so hard to grasp about this concept?
Because this is the STO forum.
Here there be only white and black.
If you say something negative about the game, you're a hater.
If you say something positive about the game, you're a fanboi.
Logic and common sense left out the window the moment you signed in the forum, always remember that.
I really don't know why you even bother. That's why I only replied with "LeL" - because all I can do is laugh when these pop-up, it's like the umpteenth time someone asks about this, it pops up every couple of weeks and there's always people that apparently understand what's canon better than CBS even though the majority always points out to the facts stated by CBS.
And to further that, if what is canon is actually open to interpretation, then nothing can actually be considered canon. I could even consider the crappy stories I wrote as a kid as canon. But they ain't. Sorta.
Google is your friend. Wikipedia, Ex Astris, and Memory Alpha all have extensive articles on this subject. Although I'm under the impression that CBS gave up on trying to explain what was and wasn't canon, after ToS started getting it's revamp, since it wound up changing certain details within the episodes.
(...)
I really don't know why you even bother. (...)
I guess you could call me just a little bit... pig-headed
I don't know why I bother. I need to learn the ancient chinese art of "not giving a TRIBBLE" I guess
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I believe CBS has said they consider STO to be canon. However Canon comes in all shapes and sizes when it comes to Star Trek. Since the Trek Universe has almost always been a fluid universe, than I would consider STO canon in that sense.
*************************** Fleet Admiral In charge of Bacon Fighting 5th Attack Squadron The Devils Henchman
Main Canon? (Hard Canon)
Which is all the official TV Series and Movies.
STO isn't part of the main canon, but its based on them.
Expanded Universe? (Soft Canon)
All the books, novels, games, and comics, who are also based off Main Canon.
Well this one is a bit triggy since there is more than one expanded universe.
There is one Expanded Universe series where the Borg is created from V'ger encountering a robotic aliens race. Who tried to repair Vger and it corrupted thier programming.
There is another Expanded Universe series where Kirk is alive and well in the 24th century, and even marries a Half-Klingon/Romulan hybrid woman.
STO doesn't follow those two examples of expanded universes, but it does follow some of the other expanded materials.
Like, the ingame Luna Class appearnce is based off the U.S.S Titan (Luna Class) that Riker is Captain off in one of the book series.
STO contains a lot of elements from the books and novels.
Fan Canon?
Non licenced, fanmade stuff.
Fan Series like Renegades, Axanar, New Voyagers, Phase Two...
Stuff that is made by fans for fun.
So Is STO Main Canon? No, but its based on it.
Is STO Expanded Universe Canon? Yes. (In is own expanded universe, based on main canon and selected Expanded Universe works.)
Is STO Fan Canon? NO.
"Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons." Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
Soft cannon like it or not. not quite DHC quality though.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I believe CBS has said they consider STO to be canon. However Canon comes in all shapes and sizes when it comes to Star Trek. Since the Trek Universe has almost always been a fluid universe, than I would consider STO canon in that sense.
I highly doubt CBS claiming STO to be canon, but feel free to prove me wrong. Canon doesn't come in all shapes and sizes at all, as angrytarg tried to explain over and over again.
STO is branched off from the IP Star Trek. Anything made within STO, is only canon to STO and nothing else. If they make another TV show or movie, book, comic, whatever, STO is/will be completely ignored.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
And to further that, if what is canon is actually open to interpretation, then nothing can actually be considered canon. I could even consider the crappy stories I wrote as a kid as canon. But they ain't. Sorta.
Google is your friend. Wikipedia, Ex Astris, and Memory Alpha all have extensive articles on this subject. Although I'm under the impression that CBS gave up on trying to explain what was and wasn't canon, after ToS started getting it's revamp, since it wound up changing certain details within the episodes.
But, the deletion of the official policy page suggests that they may have changed their minds on whether they even HAVE a canon policy. From a TV producer's POV the only time canon matters is when you reference previous things in a new episode or movie. Thus they have no need for the old canon policy.
Unless they actually announce that they've changed their policy on what is canon, it's far more reasonable to assume that the old guidelines are still in place: simply removing the explanation of the rule does not rescind the rule itself.
Unless they actually announce that they've changed their policy on what is canon, it's far more reasonable to assume that the old guidelines are still in place: simply removing the explanation of the rule does not rescind the rule itself.
given how drastically they revised the policy in 2006.... It's hard to guess what they're thinking. Especially since this time it was erased completely.
It cannot be canon as it was not shown on TV or at the movies. Canon to some is what was seen only. Even if what was seen was a mish-mash that often contradicted itself. It is their E'ed Plebnista, the Holy of Holies.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Lt. Philip J. Minns
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,437Community Moderator
No Explain
I view STO to be as Canon as the books, so... Soft Canon at best. Unless events in the game are directly referenced in a new Prime Universe story, it will remain as canon as the old Thrawn Trilogy for Star Wars.
I know of only two games that are to be considered Grade A Official Canon:
Star Trek
Aliens: Colonial Marines
The first takes place between the two reboot movies, and is technically referenced in Into Darkness when McCoy makes a comment about helping a Pregnant Gorn. Although we don't see it, during the part where Kirk and Spock are trying to get to a Gorn facility, McCoy says over the open channel that Sulu had stunned a Gorn, and it was pregnant. He helped deliver the baby Gorn.
Colonial Marines is to be considered the sequel to Aliens, where we discover the fate of the USS Sulaco, and they actually retcon the death of Hicks in Alien 3.
So... unless otherwise specified, I do not consider games to be official Canon.
Comments
I like to take the stance that Marvel comics uses. Multiple universes exist and these may have significant differences from each other. Thus STO is it's own universe separate from the TV shows.... which spanned several universes themselves....
My character Tsin'xing
Things that are soft canon in terms of Star Trek:
- novels
- games
- fan-made content/shows (Renegades, Axanar, etc.)
Things that are hard canon:Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
It has once to my knowledge, when they invluded TAS due to a DVD release into canon. You make it sound like they go back and forth constantly. But Star Trek canon is not complicated, at all.
Mind you, what we personally like and dislike or headcanon or even what was prior to CBS/Paramount owning Star Trek is one thing. Official canon is rather clearly defined though, there's no big discussion over that which is my point and what I think @bobbydazlers doesn't understand.
People often think that if something is "not canon" it means it is bad or devalues whatever piece of licensed or unllicensed product they like. But it really has nothing to do with that. There's just canon ("In-univese history of events") and then there's non-canon. Canon is what all future works, canonical or not canonical, are based on. Non-canonical (or "soft-canonical" if you insist) has no bearing on any of that.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Basically a future "what if" universe much like the Newest movies.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Shortly into TNG's run, Paramount's lawyers advised the studio to make sure that their writers never used any story ideas that did not originate with them, as they were concerned about the authors coming after them for royalties for it. I think this might have been triggered by the appearance of an Orion ship in an onscreen graphic that was produced for the FASA RPG -- something that Paramount itself didn't have the rights to. Since then, all licensed works (including STO) are not only non-canon, they are also a sort of anti-canon: because of Paramount's (and thus now CBS's) internal rules, none of the ideas/images/stories/etc. seen here, or elsewhere, can ever be used in a Star Trek television show or movie, and thus can never be canon.
Needless to say, this has created problems, since mistakes and bad decisions made by the show's writers are annoyingly permanent, and good stories from licensed works can never truely be part of the fold. The story in 2009's 'Star Trek', for example, would have made a lot more sense if the backstory from the 'Countdown' prequel comic could have been referenced when Spock was explaining Nero's backstory, but since it was in a book, they couldn't touch it...
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
My character Tsin'xing
You thought of canon?
My thought of canon?
His thought of canon?
`\ (°_°) /`
CBS' thoughts of canon.
Seriously, what's so hard to grasp about this concept?
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
OK, and since CBS hasn't pronounced/classified STO as Canon. Then it is not. Or maybe it is?
See from startrek.com article
"But canon is not something set in stone; even events in some of the movies have been called into question as to whether they should be considered canon! Ultimately, the fans, the writers and the producers may all differ on what is considered canon and the very idea of what is canon has become more fluid, especially as there isn't a single voice or arbiter to decide."
I get that. There's stuff you like and stuff you dislike, that natural. Still, it is futile to discuss about "canon", there's just one version of Star Trek canon and it's in the IP-holder's will if and to what degree things become canon.
I welcome lively debates and ideas, but the claim "Star Trek canon is complicated" or "loose" is entirely false. And people have to learn that "canon" and "not canon" do not value nor devalue certain works.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
My character Tsin'xing
Because this is the STO forum.
Here there be only white and black.
If you say something negative about the game, you're a hater.
If you say something positive about the game, you're a fanboi.
Logic and common sense left out the window the moment you signed in the forum, always remember that.
I really don't know why you even bother. That's why I only replied with "LeL" - because all I can do is laugh when these pop-up, it's like the umpteenth time someone asks about this, it pops up every couple of weeks and there's always people that apparently understand what's canon better than CBS even though the majority always points out to the facts stated by CBS.
Google is your friend. Wikipedia, Ex Astris, and Memory Alpha all have extensive articles on this subject. Although I'm under the impression that CBS gave up on trying to explain what was and wasn't canon, after ToS started getting it's revamp, since it wound up changing certain details within the episodes.
You have to use the webarchive, the article is not featured on the site any more, probably due to reasons @therealmaddmatt gave.
I guess you could call me just a little bit... pig-headed
I don't know why I bother. I need to learn the ancient chinese art of "not giving a TRIBBLE" I guess
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
that is all *exits stage right*
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Devs said so.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
Fleet Admiral In charge of Bacon
Fighting 5th Attack Squadron
The Devils Henchman
Main Canon? (Hard Canon)
Which is all the official TV Series and Movies.
STO isn't part of the main canon, but its based on them.
Expanded Universe? (Soft Canon)
All the books, novels, games, and comics, who are also based off Main Canon.
Well this one is a bit triggy since there is more than one expanded universe.
There is one Expanded Universe series where the Borg is created from V'ger encountering a robotic aliens race. Who tried to repair Vger and it corrupted thier programming.
There is another Expanded Universe series where Kirk is alive and well in the 24th century, and even marries a Half-Klingon/Romulan hybrid woman.
STO doesn't follow those two examples of expanded universes, but it does follow some of the other expanded materials.
Like, the ingame Luna Class appearnce is based off the U.S.S Titan (Luna Class) that Riker is Captain off in one of the book series.
STO contains a lot of elements from the books and novels.
Fan Canon?
Non licenced, fanmade stuff.
Fan Series like Renegades, Axanar, New Voyagers, Phase Two...
Stuff that is made by fans for fun.
So Is STO Main Canon? No, but its based on it.
Is STO Expanded Universe Canon? Yes. (In is own expanded universe, based on main canon and selected Expanded Universe works.)
Is STO Fan Canon? NO.
Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
That doesn't make any sense...
I highly doubt CBS claiming STO to be canon, but feel free to prove me wrong. Canon doesn't come in all shapes and sizes at all, as angrytarg tried to explain over and over again.
STO is branched off from the IP Star Trek. Anything made within STO, is only canon to STO and nothing else. If they make another TV show or movie, book, comic, whatever, STO is/will be completely ignored.
But, the deletion of the official policy page suggests that they may have changed their minds on whether they even HAVE a canon policy. From a TV producer's POV the only time canon matters is when you reference previous things in a new episode or movie. Thus they have no need for the old canon policy.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I know of only two games that are to be considered Grade A Official Canon:
The first takes place between the two reboot movies, and is technically referenced in Into Darkness when McCoy makes a comment about helping a Pregnant Gorn. Although we don't see it, during the part where Kirk and Spock are trying to get to a Gorn facility, McCoy says over the open channel that Sulu had stunned a Gorn, and it was pregnant. He helped deliver the baby Gorn.
Colonial Marines is to be considered the sequel to Aliens, where we discover the fate of the USS Sulaco, and they actually retcon the death of Hicks in Alien 3.
So... unless otherwise specified, I do not consider games to be official Canon.