If we are to take the idea seriously that the weapon really changes time so that the target never exists, and never existed then it can't possibly be wrong, since it doesn't affect anything that exists, or has ever existed.
The crew can understand this ahead of time, and understand that using their weapon can't possibly be wrong.
They'd also have no way of knowing how many times they had used it in the past, since after the weapon was used, there ought to be no way for the people to remember using it, since they never did, since the target never existed.
The crew is "temporal shielded" as established in the lore and is fully aware of the changes and their actions. They remove the target/change the time fully knowing that they will 'remove' an entire race, planet or whatever it is they target for their own benefit/goals. Even if the target doesn't exist for the changed timeline, they know they did that.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
If we are to take the idea seriously that the weapon really changes time so that the target never exists, and never existed then it can't possibly be wrong, since it doesn't affect anything that exists, or has ever existed.
The crew can understand this ahead of time, and understand that using their weapon can't possibly be wrong.
They'd also have no way of knowing how many times they had used it in the past, since after the weapon was used, there ought to be no way for the people to remember using it, since they never did, since the target never existed.
The crew is "temporal shielded" as established in the lore and is fully aware of the changes and their actions. They remove the target/change the time fully knowing that they will 'remove' an entire race, planet or whatever it is they target for their own benefit/goals. Even if the target doesn't exist for the changed timeline, they know they did that.
So here's my question:
Shouldn't we have counterparts in the new timeline we create if all goes well?
If we're temporally shielded then there's a version of us who never used the weapon, right? Like the Back to the Future Part 2 Marty that was away at boarding school. Or like how DC Comics has two Supermen.
With DC Comics, for instance, the Flash (Barry Allen) mucked up the timeline in a battle with his enemy Zoom to save his mother. He failed to restore things properly and he wasn't shielded when he came back to the present, causing the old Barry to morph into the new Barry of the revised universe. This was in a story called Flashpoint. And we see old Barry BECOME new Barry.
However, Superman was kidnapped from earth and was outside the universe when the timeline changes happened, making him shielded. The new timeline resulted in its own natural Superman who was a consequence of events in the rebooted universe (The "New 52" Superman) but the old Superman has also returned with the old Lois and he's hanging out on earth as a separate guy because he was "shielded" from the reboot. He's getting his own comic.
Granted, I always said after "Night of the Comet" in STO, there should be a second copy of US. In "Temporal Ambassador", Walker made sure our counterparts got merged. But in the case of "Night of the Comet", we're from a timeline where the comet existed and the Devidians attacked. But nobody aside from us remembers any of the events of those episodes. The Cardassians who died in those episodes? Probably aren't dead. And there should be a version of ourselves who never heard of Driffen's Comet or encountered the Devidians or met McCoy or Scotty. Unless we went through the proper Temporal Integration process with our counterparts.
Shouldn't we have counterparts in the new timeline we create if all goes well?
(...)
Since we're talking about Voyager writing I highly doubt anyone even considered that
What we can clearly see is that the weapon ship does alter the current timeline in real-time rather than creating another parallel branch. This is different from time travel that was portrayed on earlier instances in the show or movies (in fact, every time Trek touches time travel it's completely different from before). The timeship and everything inside it is shielded from the effects, they cannot be harmed by physical means and they don't age which means if you enter the timeship you are "gone" and removed from the timeline yourself. You have a past up to the point you enter the ship but afterwards you are gone. The ship itself cannot "travel" in time, it always stays the same and is just observing, so even if you leave the ship and re-enter the timeline you probably don't cause any paradoxa aside from the fact that you stopped aging for the time you were on the weapon ship. That way you could time-travel by sitting in the weapon ship for millenia (but it feels like real time for you) and then step out of it.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Granted, I always said after "Night of the Comet" in STO, there should be a second copy of US. In "Temporal Ambassador", Walker made sure our counterparts got merged. But in the case of "Night of the Comet", we're from a timeline where the comet existed and the Devidians attacked. But nobody aside from us remembers any of the events of those episodes. The Cardassians who died in those episodes? Probably aren't dead. And there should be a version of ourselves who never heard of Driffen's Comet or encountered the Devidians or met McCoy or Scotty. Unless we went through the proper Temporal Integration process with our counterparts.
Maybe that guy was send back in time to investigate the strange reporting of what was now determined to be a temporal anomaly and the destruction of comet by a Klingon vessel while it was under heavy fire from other Klingon vessels?
And that guy mucked things up, of course, and moved forward into a timeline where the Devidians are now attempting to phase-shift the entire sector. And the guy from that timeline is moving back to stop that from happening?
Maybe it's turtles all the way down, or it's a kind of meta-time-loop?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Granted, I always said after "Night of the Comet" in STO, there should be a second copy of US. In "Temporal Ambassador", Walker made sure our counterparts got merged. But in the case of "Night of the Comet", we're from a timeline where the comet existed and the Devidians attacked. But nobody aside from us remembers any of the events of those episodes. The Cardassians who died in those episodes? Probably aren't dead. And there should be a version of ourselves who never heard of Driffen's Comet or encountered the Devidians or met McCoy or Scotty. Unless we went through the proper Temporal Integration process with our counterparts.
Maybe that guy was send back in time to investigate the strange reporting of what was now determined to be a temporal anomaly and the destruction of comet by a Klingon vessel while it was under heavy fire from other Klingon vessels?
And that guy mucked things up, of course, and moved forward into a timeline where the Devidians are now attempting to phase-shift the entire sector. And the guy from that timeline is moving back to stop that from happening?
Maybe it's turtles all the way down, or it's a kind of meta-time-loop?
I think that Drake "Took care of things".
Granted it's not a pretty thought, but I don't think he wants to get involved with TI if avoidable.
Did anyone read the new Tales of the War. Use of the Krenim weapon is off the table. Now you can direct your angst in another direction. We had similar reactions here about the Kobali where people were getting physically sick at the thought of their reanimation process.
This is Star Trek Online we are here to blow things up 'real good'. Go to Risa and lay on the beach and decompress. Get a dog or a cat from the Lobi Store and let it provide that soothing calming therapy for you.
This Forum is not the Athenian Forum at the time of Socrates. I think at this stage the thread Subject has become moot.
Maybe we could figure out a way to teleport the Iconians to Talos IV. Then we can justifiably execute General Order Number Four.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Some of y'all are going to go mad from all this effort to figure out temporal mechanics ...
I tried to warn people against this with the caveat that they would go mad, in Ten Forward a year or two ago, but oh, well.
Somebody get a butterfly net so we can catch the ones who go loopy.
Probably the best advise in the thread, especially cosnidering that temporal mechanics in Star Trek are not consistent anyway. The method someone travels in episode X are completely different from the next time in episode Y and come with completely different rules which then again don't apply to that one time in episode Z...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
But I'll bide my time and keep my weapons ready, because I fully intend to end her.
Can I shoot her too? pretty please?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
...aside from the simple aspect, that as a member of the crew, you are fully aware of what that weapon does, and that it is, in fact, a weapon. you will acquire a target, go through a process of complex calculations, checking to make sure you get as close to the desired result as possible, including the generation of detailed list of effects, so you will know what to expect. while there will always be unforeseen occurrences, in terms of taking out a sentient species, you need to be totally aware of them, in order to then remove them, if that is your intention. after firing the weapon you will run more complex calculations to confirm your level of success. this will will confirm if the species do or do not exist any more. so you will know they did exist, and it was your actions that changed that. so from a personal perspective, and that of the crew, is that not still committing murder or genocide
sorry, not you personally, you as in any player character lol
Murder? No. Genocide? Yes. But just as the law recognizes the reality of "justifiable homicide," in this case, I would argue, there is such a thing as "justifiable genocide." We're in a situation where the only outcomes we have been presented as options are "us or them." I would feel entirely justified in wiping them out entirely, whether it be by erasing them from history entirely (this isn't likely to happen, for multiple reasons, and if it should happen, it will be quickly undone, because the timeline would be altered far too much) or by shooting every one of them in the face repeatedly until they are all dead. And, yes, make no mistake about it, that latter would be as much genocide as the former, possibly even more definitely genocide than the former.
surely what you mean to say is, they are the only options we seem willing to consider. if we haven't attempted to communicate on the assumption they wouldn't talk to us, what we are saying is, we don't want to hear what they may have to say. so as yet we have not clearly confirmed all our options. we are acting out of desperation and fear, and considering an option that could.
a) wipe ourselves out, with the iconians, who you believe want us all dead.
b) wipe ourselves out, when there may be an alternative option, that doesn't require that weapon.
we cannot make such a massive decision, one which could effect every sentient being in the galaxy, through fear, ignorance and pride. do the "people" not have the right to make an informed decision about something this monumental? and by informed i mean with all the facts and all the options? does our leadership really have the right to potentially condemn us, or an entire civilisation in our names, if they haven't explored every possibility yet?
i remember watching the film 'bulletproof monk' with my 15yr old daughter, there is a scene in the museum, next to this photograph of an aggressor with a assault rifle pointed at a the head of civilian mother holding a child, the question is asked, who would you rather be, the one holding the gun, or the one about to be shot? my daughter asked me the same question.. "well babes, i can't see me ever being in that situation, but i know i'd never be that TRIBBLE holding that gun, i would rather be shot dead, for not shooting that woman"
when it comes to the taking of life, i would genuinely rather be shot dead for refusing to do something i felt was wrong, than save my own life for taking part in something i knew was wrong. that simple principle was the deciding factor in deciding i had spent enough time as a serviceman.
there has never been, nor will there ever be such a thing as justifiable genocide, because even warrior cultures don't exist as purely warriors. justifiable homicide is self defence, killing a person in self defence and then going to their home and killing the wife and children, would not be deemed as justified. wars are fought by combatants till terms are agreed, 1 side surrenders, or 1 side can fight no more. war is not fought by breast feeding mothers, children, or the old and infirm. genocide is the purposeful extermination of a civilisation down to the very last innocent. during world war 1, out of a population of about 1.8billion, only about 65million were combatants, that is a measly 3.6% of the planets population. justifiable genocide.. never! if a persons principles can shift with the sand, they are not principles.
1. It's not an assumption. When they explicitly refer to us as "worms," when they show up and warn us not to attract their attention again after we fought off an attack by a group of their pawns (not even their actual servitors, but their pawns) whom they set against us and then they annihilate 8 council members as they ran calling her a foul demona whole room full of Klingon warriors for merely objecting, when they make plain that they intend to rule the galaxy, when their own database states explicitly what their intentions are for Earth, Qo'noS, and New Romulus and their inhabitants, continuing to assert that we're making assumptions is tantamount to sticking your head up your rear end so as to mute the voices of others who are only stating what is not mere speculation, but actual evidence.
2. We don't yet know what the option is that we're considering. Here's where the real assumption comes into play: because Federation President Ra-ghoratreii -- sorry; Annorax -- used the ship in "Year of Hell" to erase species from existence, people are assuming we are considering doing likewise to the Iconians. In reality, the ship was also used to erase events, and that may be what is being considered. WE DON'T KNOW, and the only evidence of it being used o erase entire species is in VOY, with a tantalizing clue in the description of the first special project for the new Research Lab holding. But nowhere in-game, apart from Nog's overenthusiastic dialogue in "Time in a Bottle," is there even so much as a hint that such a thing is on the table.
3. Fear and ignorance are not the issues here. I'll go to my death fighting them and trying to kill every last one of them in the process, not because I fear them, but because I value freedom and will do whatever I can to ensure that my daughters are not slaves to a group of rulers who were ousted from power 200,000 years ago and have demonstrated only capriciousness and possible symptoms of various psychoses. Stop saying we don't know their intentions. We do. Those intentions have been made plain since at least "Sphere of Influence," with more and more evidence mounting up since then. Pride? Pride is fine. Conceit is another matter, and the Iconians are full of it.
4. Some things the average citizen does not have a need to know, because they don't have the education, the experience, or the context to form any opinion on the matter. Thus, they obviously should not be entrusted with a referendum on the question.
5. Your movie reference has nothing to do with this situation; none of the Iconians are innocent civilians; they are would-be conquerors, and have made the fact that they are a threat to life and freedom rather abundantly clear.
6. There are less than 20 Iconians left, so far as we know, all of whom are female (as stated by zeroniusrex), and all of whom have been involved in what M'Tara described in "Time in a Bottle" as a "campaign." Therefore, for the purposes of the Geneva Conference, they are all military personnel of an enemy power, making war on the species of the Alpha, Beta, and Delta Quadrants, without regard for civilians, mothers, children, etc. They don't care who or what the people they kill are. If we wipe out their species completely, that is in an etymologically literal sense genocide, and it's entirely ethically justifiable. Principles are not laws. Principles do not shift with the sand, but they do not consider actions alone when contemplating what is the ethical course. On the contrary, legalism asserts that an act in itself is either goo or bad, and then gets itself into Catch 22 situations in which no matter what an adherent of the ethic does, he/she does "wrong" by that ethical standard. Principles are about attitudes and intentions and motivations, and contexts, and sometimes even consequences, and those are the things which a principlistic ethic considers when contemplating what is the ethical course. So yes, I can shoot you in the face in self defense and not be guilty of murder, although the act itself, divorced from any question of intentions, attitudes, motivations, and context, is identical with murder, from a purely legalistic perspective. The fact that we don't really have distinct terms for genocide and justifiable genocide is irrelevant; we haven't ever encountered a situation on this planet which would call for the latter. But in this situation in STO, we're facing the last survivors of a race who are all hellbent on wiping us out or enslaving us; they don't have any civilians. They're all that are left of their entire species, and every damned one of them wants us dead or enslaved. Hell yeah, I fully intend to eradicate them like I would any other threat to my life and/or freedom, and the lives and freedom of my daughters.
7. You are attributing to us the attitude which is properly attributed to the Iconians.
Stop ignoring the evidence. It's been presented in-game since "Sphere of Influence." Go back and play all those missions again and take the time to read this time around. I'll even give you a list to make it easy for you:
Sphere of Influence: Inside the Solanae Dyson Sphere, we run around activating consoles and reading the intelligence the Iconians have gathered on peoples in all four quadrants of the Milky Way, and their intentions for those peoples are clearly stated.
Surface Tension: M'Tara vaporizes several Klingon warriors and members of the Klingon High Council, and then warns us to avoid attracting their attention again, after we have successfully repelled an attack on ESD and Qo'noS by Undine forces, which have been being used by the Iconians as pawns.
Blood of Ancients: T'Ket attacks a patrol or platoon of Romulan soldiers near the Underground Ruins, who are celebrating after repelling an attack by Heralds, and then M'Tara kills the Preservers on Laenas.
House Pegh: T'Ket fails to engage in honorable combat with Kahless' clone after he cuts off part of one of her arms and part of one of her "horns," instead teleporting behind him and stabbing him in the back.
Time in a Bottle: Iconian Council Meeting, during which T'Ket rages about wanting to rend our worlds asunder and spill our blood until it fills the oceans.
Broken Circle: M'Tara tries to pull the same trick on us that she used in the Klingon High Council Chambers, but is unable to do so, then, full of hubris ("You cannot kill a god!"), continues trying to kill us herself or send servitors to do so, but we manage to kill both her and all of the servitors she sent against us, and with the last of her strengh, summons T'Ket and L'Mirien, who swear vengeance against us in no uncertain terms.
Either you haven't been paying attention to the dialogues in the missions, or you don't want to admit that we aren't the villains of the story based on some kind of cultural cringe which is your own issue, and of no concern to us.
maybe you haven't..
When I close my eyes, all I see is wreckage.
Blasted ships strewn about space like broken toys. Escape pods that offered no refuge. Broken bodies …
I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry. There are hundreds of people I'd like to apologize to who will never have the chance to hear my meaningless words. And the letters we send to their families are cold comfort at best.
We had to do something. The Iconians are winning. Their Heralds are moving beyond military targets now to civilian populations. They're trying to force us to bow to their rule … but kneeling is not in our nature.
were is the.. they are trying to commit genocide to us? where is the.. us or them you speak of? i accept that the iconians may be everything we hate and fear, but my fear of ignorance is far greater. you had maintained that they wanted our total destruction, you wouldn't even consider the very idea that things may be different. the aggressor always feels they are in the right, and the defender always feels they are fighting for their freedom.. who is right and who is wrong is a fluid concept and obviously subjective to the side of the war you stand on. a dispassionate approach, free of prejudice, is needed in order to see the bigger picture, and avoid taking disproportionate action. that this is conquest for the iconians is not up for debate, but the resolution to it should be. we may not like the idea of being absorbed into the iconian empire, we still don't actually know what that would actually mean, but like it or not, it is still an option. who says we shouldn't be allowed to consider all on their metrits? you? some people may be able to hide behind cardboard justifications for using the krenim weapon, ignoring the shame and guilt, but i think you will find many who would consider the price to high, and the risk to great. it very much comes down to principles and morals.. the desire to live is strong, but i wont turn my back on long help principles, no matter the cost. i wont be handing out blankets to the natives, and pretending it is keep them warm.
...aside from the simple aspect, that as a member of the crew, you are fully aware of what that weapon does, and that it is, in fact, a weapon. you will acquire a target, go through a process of complex calculations, checking to make sure you get as close to the desired result as possible, including the generation of detailed list of effects, so you will know what to expect. while there will always be unforeseen occurrences, in terms of taking out a sentient species, you need to be totally aware of them, in order to then remove them, if that is your intention. after firing the weapon you will run more complex calculations to confirm your level of success. this will will confirm if the species do or do not exist any more. so you will know they did exist, and it was your actions that changed that. so from a personal perspective, and that of the crew, is that not still committing murder or genocide
sorry, not you personally, you as in any player character lol
Murder? No. Genocide? Yes. But just as the law recognizes the reality of "justifiable homicide," in this case, I would argue, there is such a thing as "justifiable genocide." We're in a situation where the only outcomes we have been presented as options are "us or them." I would feel entirely justified in wiping them out entirely, whether it be by erasing them from history entirely (this isn't likely to happen, for multiple reasons, and if it should happen, it will be quickly undone, because the timeline would be altered far too much) or by shooting every one of them in the face repeatedly until they are all dead. And, yes, make no mistake about it, that latter would be as much genocide as the former, possibly even more definitely genocide than the former.
surely what you mean to say is, they are the only options we seem willing to consider. if we haven't attempted to communicate on the assumption they wouldn't talk to us, what we are saying is, we don't want to hear what they may have to say. so as yet we have not clearly confirmed all our options. we are acting out of desperation and fear, and considering an option that could.
a) wipe ourselves out, with the iconians, who you believe want us all dead.
b) wipe ourselves out, when there may be an alternative option, that doesn't require that weapon.
we cannot make such a massive decision, one which could effect every sentient being in the galaxy, through fear, ignorance and pride. do the "people" not have the right to make an informed decision about something this monumental? and by informed i mean with all the facts and all the options? does our leadership really have the right to potentially condemn us, or an entire civilisation in our names, if they haven't explored every possibility yet?
i remember watching the film 'bulletproof monk' with my 15yr old daughter, there is a scene in the museum, next to this photograph of an aggressor with a assault rifle pointed at a the head of civilian mother holding a child, the question is asked, who would you rather be, the one holding the gun, or the one about to be shot? my daughter asked me the same question.. "well babes, i can't see me ever being in that situation, but i know i'd never be that TRIBBLE holding that gun, i would rather be shot dead, for not shooting that woman"
when it comes to the taking of life, i would genuinely rather be shot dead for refusing to do something i felt was wrong, than save my own life for taking part in something i knew was wrong. that simple principle was the deciding factor in deciding i had spent enough time as a serviceman.
there has never been, nor will there ever be such a thing as justifiable genocide, because even warrior cultures don't exist as purely warriors. justifiable homicide is self defence, killing a person in self defence and then going to their home and killing the wife and children, would not be deemed as justified. wars are fought by combatants till terms are agreed, 1 side surrenders, or 1 side can fight no more. war is not fought by breast feeding mothers, children, or the old and infirm. genocide is the purposeful extermination of a civilisation down to the very last innocent. during world war 1, out of a population of about 1.8billion, only about 65million were combatants, that is a measly 3.6% of the planets population. justifiable genocide.. never! if a persons principles can shift with the sand, they are not principles.
1. It's not an assumption. When they explicitly refer to us as "worms," when they show up and warn us not to attract their attention again after we fought off an attack by a group of their pawns (not even their actual servitors, but their pawns) whom they set against us and then they annihilate a whole room full of Klingon warriors for merely objecting, when they make plain that they intend to rule the galaxy, when their own database states explicitly what their intentions are for Earth, Qo'noS, and New Romulus and their inhabitants, continuing to assert that we're making assumptions is tantamount to sticking your head up your rear end so as to mute the voices of others who are only stating what is not mere speculation, but actual evidence.
2. We don't yet know what the option is that we're considering. Here's where the real assumption comes into play: because Federation President Ra-ghoratreii -- sorry; Annorax -- used the ship in "Year of Hell" to erase species from existence, people are assuming we are considering doing likewise to the Iconians. In reality, the ship was also used to erase events, and that may be what is being considered. WE DON'T KNOW, and the only evidence of it being used o erase entire species is in VOY, with a tantalizing clue in the description of the first special project for the new Research Lab holding. But nowhere in-game, apart from Nog's overenthusiastic dialogue in "Time in a Bottle," is there even so much as a hint that such a thing is on the table.
3. Fear and ignorance are not the issues here. I'll go to my death fighting them and trying to kill every last one of them in the process, not because I fear them, but because I value freedom and will do whatever I can to ensure that my daughters are not slaves to a group of rulers who were ousted from power 200,000 years ago and have demonstrated only capriciousness and possible symptoms of various psychoses. Stop saying we don't know their intentions. We do. Those intentions have been made plain since at least "Sphere of Influence," with more and more evidence mounting up since then. Pride? Pride is fine. Conceit is another matter, and the Iconians are full of it.
4. Some things the average citizen does not have a need to know, because they don't have the education, the experience, or the context to form any opinion on the matter. Thus, they obviously should not be entrusted with a referendum on the question.
5. Your movie reference has nothing to do with this situation; none of the Iconians are innocent civilians; they are would-be conquerors, and have made the fact that they are a threat to life and freedom rather abundantly clear.
6. There are less than 20 Iconians left, so far as we know, all of whom are female (as stated by zeroniusrex), and all of whom have been involved in what M'Tara described in "Time in a Bottle" as a "campaign." Therefore, for the purposes of the Geneva Conference, they are all military personnel of an enemy power, making war on the species of the Alpha, Beta, and Delta Quadrants, without regard for civilians, mothers, children, etc. They don't care who or what the people they kill are. If we wipe out their species completely, that is in an etymologically literal sense genocide, and it's entirely ethically justifiable. Principles are not laws. Principles do not shift with the sand, but they do not consider actions alone when contemplating what is the ethical course. On the contrary, legalism asserts that an act in itself is either goo or bad, and then gets itself into Catch 22 situations in which no matter what an adherent of the ethic does, he/she does "wrong" by that ethical standard. Principles are about attitudes and intentions and motivations, and contexts, and sometimes even consequences, and those are the things which a principlistic ethic considers when contemplating what is the ethical course. So yes, I can shoot you in the face in self defense and not be guilty of murder, although the act itself, divorced from any question of intentions, attitudes, motivations, and context, is identical with murder, from a purely legalistic perspective. The fact that we don't really have distinct terms for genocide and justifiable genocide is irrelevant; we haven't ever encountered a situation on this planet which would call for the latter. But in this situation in STO, we're facing the last survivors of a race who are all hellbent on wiping us out or enslaving us; they don't have any civilians. They're all that are left of their entire species, and every damned one of them wants us dead or enslaved. Hell yeah, I fully intend to eradicate them like I would any other threat to my life and/or freedom, and the lives and freedom of my daughters.
7. You are attributing to us the attitude which is properly attributed to the Iconians.
Stop ignoring the evidence. It's been presented in-game since "Sphere of Influence." Go back and play all those missions again and take the time to read this time around. I'll even give you a list to make it easy for you:
Sphere of Influence: Inside the Solanae Dyson Sphere, we run around activating consoles and reading the intelligence the Iconians have gathered on peoples in all four quadrants of the Milky Way, and their intentions for those peoples are clearly stated.
Surface Tension: M'Tara vaporizes several Klingon warriors and members of the Klingon High Council, and then warns us to avoid attracting their attention again, after we have successfully repelled an attack on ESD and Qo'noS by Undine forces, which have been being used by the Iconians as pawns.
Blood of Ancients: T'Ket attacks a patrol or platoon of Romulan soldiers near the Underground Ruins, who are celebrating after repelling an attack by Heralds, and then M'Tara kills the Preservers on Laenas.
House Pegh: T'Ket fails to engage in honorable combat with Kahless' clone after he cuts off part of one of her arms and part of one of her "horns," instead teleporting behind him and stabbing him in the back.
Time in a Bottle: Iconian Council Meeting, during which T'Ket rages about wanting to rend our worlds asunder and spill our blood until it fills the oceans.
Broken Circle: M'Tara tries to pull the same trick on us that she used in the Klingon High Council Chambers, but is unable to do so, then, full of hubris ("You cannot kill a god!"), continues trying to kill us herself or send servitors to do so, but we manage to kill both her and all of the servitors she sent against us, and with the last of her strengh, summons T'Ket and L'Mirien, who swear vengeance against us in no uncertain terms.
Either you haven't been paying attention to the dialogues in the missions, or you don't want to admit that we aren't the villains of the story based on some kind of cultural cringe which is your own issue, and of no concern to us.
maybe you haven't..
When I close my eyes, all I see is wreckage.
Blasted ships strewn about space like broken toys. Escape pods that offered no refuge. Broken bodies …
I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry. There are hundreds of people I'd like to apologize to who will never have the chance to hear my meaningless words. And the letters we send to their families are cold comfort at best.
We had to do something. The Iconians are winning. Their Heralds are moving beyond military targets now to civilian populations. They're trying to force us to bow to their rule … but kneeling is not in our nature. were is your.. they are trying to commit genocide to us? where is the us or them you speak of?
You realize that what you've just posted is the proof to negate your entire argument right?
For starters people have been saying the Iconians are aiming for genocide or subjugation, secondly a species with any intentions of negotiating wouldn't move onto civilian targets when there are so many viable military targets available, attacking defenseless civilian targets kinda annoys people enough to put a halt to negotiations before they begin.
If they never existed, they cant be eradicated, no action occurred, no wrongdoing, no crime.
Except they did exist because Annorax erased them.
If he erased them, then they didn't ever exist. If they didn't ever exist, his memory of erasing them must be a false memory, a memory of something that didn't actually happen. And it couldn't have happened, since you can't "erase" something that never existed at any point in time.
If you keep this up I'm going to need several energy drinks to keep up with your side of the conversation. Either way we can successfully say that like our characters after Night of the Comet, they retain the memories of an erased timeline.
It'd actually be a rather heavy burden to bear and I dread to think of the status of the El Alurans should this weapon be used.
Shame that Cryptic probably couldn't afford Whoopi Goldberg for Guinan.
If he erased them, then they didn't ever exist. If they didn't ever exist, his memory of erasing them must be a false memory, a memory of something that didn't actually happen. And it couldn't have happened, since you can't "erase" something that never existed at any point in time.
Either you didn't watch the episode at all or you just don't understand the concept. Annorax and his crew clearly remembered wiping out several civilizations. There was nothing false about their memories as they existed outside the space/time continuum. The species that were erased did exist and what he was doing was genocide.
Watch the episode again.
It was really raised from the timeline, that means it never existed. Just because someone has a memory of it doesn't mean it existed!
If you say the existed but then stopped existing - where or when did they exist? Can I travel through time and find them? Do I need to phase-shift or something?
What independent experiment could one conduct to confirm that these species that were allegedly removed from existence actually were removed from existence, and just never existed in the first place?
If there is no way and only the people allegedly "shielded" from the temporal manipulations can know, isn't a much simpler explanation that their memories and records are wrong?
This must be why Janeway hates Temporal Mechanics. It's extremely difficult to create an internally consistent model of reality when you have time travel like that.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
That's down to the poor quality of voyager writing though.
I'm not arguing with that, but that doesn't change the fact that for the Trekverse this is possible and true.
But even if that were true, it's still true that the temporal shield just allows the crew to keep false memories of what happened. Their memory of destroying X race must be false, because X race never existed, and if it never existed it couldn't have been destroyed.
The temporal shield just furnishes the time crew with false memories and false impressions of what happened.
If we're going to believe that preventing potential future people somehow harms the potential future people who don't actually exist, then all of history, including an enormous number of otherwise perfectly innocent, even benevolent actions, fan out through the future to be responsible for wrongdoing that is so infinite in magnitude that it dwarfs the worst things people have ever actually done.
No, the temporal shield, well, shields them from temporal incursions. The weapon ship exists outside of the regular timestream in a state of "floating" and they observe. For them the timeline never changes, they clearly witness and can trace back all the changes they cause by removing parts from time. From their point of view the species they removed existed and they are fully aware about "ending" that species.
As valoreah said, you should rewatch the episode. It's really not all that complicated, actually.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Being temporally shielded is like reading a book, then replacing the last few pages with a different ending (that still makes sense), from the point of view of the characters in the book, the new ending is reality and the old one never happened, but you sitting outside the book can still remember the original ending of the book even though the ending has changed.
That's down to the poor quality of voyager writing though.
I'm not arguing with that, but that doesn't change the fact that for the Trekverse this is possible and true.
But even if that were true, it's still true that the temporal shield just allows the crew to keep false memories of what happened. Their memory of destroying X race must be false, because X race never existed, and if it never existed it couldn't have been destroyed.
The temporal shield just furnishes the time crew with false memories and false impressions of what happened.
If we're going to believe that preventing potential future people somehow harms the potential future people who don't actually exist, then all of history, including an enormous number of otherwise perfectly innocent, even benevolent actions, fan out through the future to be responsible for wrongdoing that is so infinite in magnitude that it dwarfs the worst things people have ever actually done.
No, the temporal shield, well, shields them from temporal incursions. The weapon ship exists outside of the regular timestream in a state of "floating" and they observe. For them the timeline never changes, they clearly witness and can trace back all the changes they cause by removing parts from time. From their point of view the species they removed existed and they are fully aware about "ending" that species.
As valoreah said, you should rewatch the episode. It's really not all that complicated, actually.
But it actually is complicated.
They can see all the timeline changes they make from their "out-of-the-time-stream" position. That already means they are outside the normal dimensions of space time.
Positing that such a thing exists is a big thing with all kind of complicated implications. If you were a physicist not inside a temporal shield - how could you believe that this exists? Isn't the assumption of a shared hallucination/fabrication thanks to the temporal shield much easier? Especially since any experiment you can make outside of the temporal shield will never show any timeline alteration happening. If the Krenim inside the shield make a change to prove it to the scientist, the scientist would at best see that the Krenim suddenly altered or adjusted their claims.
Occam's Razor suggests that this time travel device isn't actually doing any time travel.
But that aside, assuming that the Krenim do indeed alter the timeline. Every decision has consequences. They decide to remove species X - but what if this allows a species Y to exist?
What moral consequences does this all have? Are they evil because they created Y instead of X?
What if there wasn't even any time travel involved, just some other decision, like say, adjust the biofilter setting so that a particular germ doesn't make it through the transport and doesn't eradicate X but allows Y to grow?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
(...)
If there is no way and only the people allegedly "shielded" from the temporal manipulations can know, isn't a much simpler explanation that their memories and records are wrong?
This must be why Janeway hates Temporal Mechanics. It's extremely difficult to create an internally consistent model of reality when you have time travel like that.
No. Why? The time ship exists outside of the timeline being changed, it observes. For the people on the ship, the timeline doesn't change at all. Nobody not temporal shielded can retrace what they did but they still can. Why should their memories be wrong? This was crystal clearly spelled out in the episode, it was a major point laid out in-dialogue.
Temporal mechanics in Star Trek aren't complicated at all. In fact, they follow pretty basic rules which are usually spelled out in the episode. Granted, every occurence of time travel in Trek works differently from before but that's the only confusing thing about it. You are creating a false dilemma.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
But it actually is complicated.
They can see all the timeline changes they make from their "out-of-the-time-stream" position. That already means they are outside the normal dimensions of space time.
That is true. Remember that they also cannot be harmed physically while they are shifted.
Positing that such a thing exists is a big thing with all kind of complicated implications. If you were a physicist not inside a temporal shield - how could you believe that this exists? Isn't the assumption of a shared hallucination/fabrication thanks to the temporal shield much easier? Especially since any experiment you can make outside of the temporal shield will never show any timeline alteration happening. If the Krenim inside the shield make a change to prove it to the scientist, the scientist would at best see that the Krenim suddenly altered or adjusted their claims.
Nobody could proof that or have knowledge of it. That's, like, the point. Remember, the time ship was a weapon. Not an experiment. If they succesfully would have used it to benefit their people nobody that wasn't temporal shielded would know and they would not get any form of recognition for their deeds but I assume everyone on board is aware of that.
Occam's Razor suggests that this time travel device isn't actually doing any time travel.
It doesn't. Nobody ever said it does. That's also, like, the point of the episode. The time ship does not time travel, it exists outside of the timestream. Annorax and his crew build the ship in the 22nd century. They encountered Voyager in the 24th and didn't age. That's the only way you could "time travel" with it. They still experience the time passed in personal real-time, however.
But that aside, assuming that the Krenim do indeed alter the timeline. Every decision has consequences. They decide to remove species X - but what if this allows a species Y to exist?
What moral consequences does this all have? Are they evil because they created Y instead of X?
What if there wasn't even any time travel involved, just some other decision, like say, adjust the biofilter setting so that a particular germ doesn't make it through the transport and doesn't eradicate X but allows Y to grow?
They still would have extinct species X. If you destroy a forest but plant another somewhere else as "reparation" you still destroyed the first forest. If you destroy the forest and in turn allow grassland fauna and flora to live there instead you still destroyed the forest.
Morality is subjective. If you ask me the Krynim never were "evil", Annorax was blinded with grief and obsessed but he was not evil. His actions were still wrong and the ironic twist of the wpisode is that all he wanted would have been accomplished by removing the weapon ship itself.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
As a romulan, i totally reject the OP's argument wholesale.
New home of the Romulan Republic.
I have an idea for what Season 11 should be; Season 11: The Big Bug Fix.
I have not been able to read my bug tickets in over a year, not even the tickets about not being able to see my tickets.
I find the drama of your signature proof of your immaturity, this means you, DR whiners.
Playing through the current weekly mission, I did see several dialogue options for my character to express strong reservations about the use of the Krenim Weapon. So, that's reasonable.
Playing through the current weekly mission, I did see several dialogue options for my character to express strong reservations about the use of the Krenim Weapon. So, that's reasonable.
This is true. However, it's still just a differently labaled "continue" button as nothing "we" say has any significance for the "movie" we watch. That's neither the writer's nor Cryptic's fault, that's just how the game works. But still.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
The crew is "temporal shielded" as established in the lore and is fully aware of the changes and their actions. They remove the target/change the time fully knowing that they will 'remove' an entire race, planet or whatever it is they target for their own benefit/goals. Even if the target doesn't exist for the changed timeline, they know they did that.
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So here's my question:
Shouldn't we have counterparts in the new timeline we create if all goes well?
If we're temporally shielded then there's a version of us who never used the weapon, right? Like the Back to the Future Part 2 Marty that was away at boarding school. Or like how DC Comics has two Supermen.
With DC Comics, for instance, the Flash (Barry Allen) mucked up the timeline in a battle with his enemy Zoom to save his mother. He failed to restore things properly and he wasn't shielded when he came back to the present, causing the old Barry to morph into the new Barry of the revised universe. This was in a story called Flashpoint. And we see old Barry BECOME new Barry.
However, Superman was kidnapped from earth and was outside the universe when the timeline changes happened, making him shielded. The new timeline resulted in its own natural Superman who was a consequence of events in the rebooted universe (The "New 52" Superman) but the old Superman has also returned with the old Lois and he's hanging out on earth as a separate guy because he was "shielded" from the reboot. He's getting his own comic.
Granted, I always said after "Night of the Comet" in STO, there should be a second copy of US. In "Temporal Ambassador", Walker made sure our counterparts got merged. But in the case of "Night of the Comet", we're from a timeline where the comet existed and the Devidians attacked. But nobody aside from us remembers any of the events of those episodes. The Cardassians who died in those episodes? Probably aren't dead. And there should be a version of ourselves who never heard of Driffen's Comet or encountered the Devidians or met McCoy or Scotty. Unless we went through the proper Temporal Integration process with our counterparts.
Since we're talking about Voyager writing I highly doubt anyone even considered that
What we can clearly see is that the weapon ship does alter the current timeline in real-time rather than creating another parallel branch. This is different from time travel that was portrayed on earlier instances in the show or movies (in fact, every time Trek touches time travel it's completely different from before). The timeship and everything inside it is shielded from the effects, they cannot be harmed by physical means and they don't age which means if you enter the timeship you are "gone" and removed from the timeline yourself. You have a past up to the point you enter the ship but afterwards you are gone. The ship itself cannot "travel" in time, it always stays the same and is just observing, so even if you leave the ship and re-enter the timeline you probably don't cause any paradoxa aside from the fact that you stopped aging for the time you were on the weapon ship. That way you could time-travel by sitting in the weapon ship for millenia (but it feels like real time for you) and then step out of it.
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And that guy mucked things up, of course, and moved forward into a timeline where the Devidians are now attempting to phase-shift the entire sector. And the guy from that timeline is moving back to stop that from happening?
Maybe it's turtles all the way down, or it's a kind of meta-time-loop?
I think that Drake "Took care of things".
Granted it's not a pretty thought, but I don't think he wants to get involved with TI if avoidable.
This is Star Trek Online we are here to blow things up 'real good'. Go to Risa and lay on the beach and decompress. Get a dog or a cat from the Lobi Store and let it provide that soothing calming therapy for you.
This Forum is not the Athenian Forum at the time of Socrates. I think at this stage the thread Subject has become moot.
Maybe we could figure out a way to teleport the Iconians to Talos IV. Then we can justifiably execute General Order Number Four.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I tried to warn people against this with the caveat that they would go mad, in Ten Forward a year or two ago, but oh, well.
Somebody get a butterfly net so we can catch the ones who go loopy.
Probably the best advise in the thread, especially cosnidering that temporal mechanics in Star Trek are not consistent anyway. The method someone travels in episode X are completely different from the next time in episode Y and come with completely different rules which then again don't apply to that one time in episode Z...
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Except they do exist, because Annorex never erased them, as he never build his timeship.
Can I shoot her too? pretty please?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
When I close my eyes, all I see is wreckage.
Blasted ships strewn about space like broken toys. Escape pods that offered no refuge. Broken bodies …
I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry. There are hundreds of people I'd like to apologize to who will never have the chance to hear my meaningless words. And the letters we send to their families are cold comfort at best.
We had to do something. The Iconians are winning. Their Heralds are moving beyond military targets now to civilian populations. They're trying to force us to bow to their rule … but kneeling is not in our nature.
were is the.. they are trying to commit genocide to us? where is the.. us or them you speak of? i accept that the iconians may be everything we hate and fear, but my fear of ignorance is far greater. you had maintained that they wanted our total destruction, you wouldn't even consider the very idea that things may be different. the aggressor always feels they are in the right, and the defender always feels they are fighting for their freedom.. who is right and who is wrong is a fluid concept and obviously subjective to the side of the war you stand on. a dispassionate approach, free of prejudice, is needed in order to see the bigger picture, and avoid taking disproportionate action. that this is conquest for the iconians is not up for debate, but the resolution to it should be. we may not like the idea of being absorbed into the iconian empire, we still don't actually know what that would actually mean, but like it or not, it is still an option. who says we shouldn't be allowed to consider all on their metrits? you? some people may be able to hide behind cardboard justifications for using the krenim weapon, ignoring the shame and guilt, but i think you will find many who would consider the price to high, and the risk to great. it very much comes down to principles and morals.. the desire to live is strong, but i wont turn my back on long help principles, no matter the cost. i wont be handing out blankets to the natives, and pretending it is keep them warm.
You realize that what you've just posted is the proof to negate your entire argument right?
For starters people have been saying the Iconians are aiming for genocide or subjugation, secondly a species with any intentions of negotiating wouldn't move onto civilian targets when there are so many viable military targets available, attacking defenseless civilian targets kinda annoys people enough to put a halt to negotiations before they begin.
If you keep this up I'm going to need several energy drinks to keep up with your side of the conversation. Either way we can successfully say that like our characters after Night of the Comet, they retain the memories of an erased timeline.
It'd actually be a rather heavy burden to bear and I dread to think of the status of the El Alurans should this weapon be used.
Shame that Cryptic probably couldn't afford Whoopi Goldberg for Guinan.
It was really raised from the timeline, that means it never existed. Just because someone has a memory of it doesn't mean it existed!
If you say the existed but then stopped existing - where or when did they exist? Can I travel through time and find them? Do I need to phase-shift or something?
What independent experiment could one conduct to confirm that these species that were allegedly removed from existence actually were removed from existence, and just never existed in the first place?
If there is no way and only the people allegedly "shielded" from the temporal manipulations can know, isn't a much simpler explanation that their memories and records are wrong?
This must be why Janeway hates Temporal Mechanics. It's extremely difficult to create an internally consistent model of reality when you have time travel like that.
I'm not arguing with that, but that doesn't change the fact that for the Trekverse this is possible and true.
No, the temporal shield, well, shields them from temporal incursions. The weapon ship exists outside of the regular timestream in a state of "floating" and they observe. For them the timeline never changes, they clearly witness and can trace back all the changes they cause by removing parts from time. From their point of view the species they removed existed and they are fully aware about "ending" that species.
As valoreah said, you should rewatch the episode. It's really not all that complicated, actually.
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But it actually is complicated.
They can see all the timeline changes they make from their "out-of-the-time-stream" position. That already means they are outside the normal dimensions of space time.
Positing that such a thing exists is a big thing with all kind of complicated implications. If you were a physicist not inside a temporal shield - how could you believe that this exists? Isn't the assumption of a shared hallucination/fabrication thanks to the temporal shield much easier? Especially since any experiment you can make outside of the temporal shield will never show any timeline alteration happening. If the Krenim inside the shield make a change to prove it to the scientist, the scientist would at best see that the Krenim suddenly altered or adjusted their claims.
Occam's Razor suggests that this time travel device isn't actually doing any time travel.
But that aside, assuming that the Krenim do indeed alter the timeline. Every decision has consequences. They decide to remove species X - but what if this allows a species Y to exist?
What moral consequences does this all have? Are they evil because they created Y instead of X?
What if there wasn't even any time travel involved, just some other decision, like say, adjust the biofilter setting so that a particular germ doesn't make it through the transport and doesn't eradicate X but allows Y to grow?
No. Why? The time ship exists outside of the timeline being changed, it observes. For the people on the ship, the timeline doesn't change at all. Nobody not temporal shielded can retrace what they did but they still can. Why should their memories be wrong? This was crystal clearly spelled out in the episode, it was a major point laid out in-dialogue.
Temporal mechanics in Star Trek aren't complicated at all. In fact, they follow pretty basic rules which are usually spelled out in the episode. Granted, every occurence of time travel in Trek works differently from before but that's the only confusing thing about it. You are creating a false dilemma.
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That is true. Remember that they also cannot be harmed physically while they are shifted.
Nobody could proof that or have knowledge of it. That's, like, the point. Remember, the time ship was a weapon. Not an experiment. If they succesfully would have used it to benefit their people nobody that wasn't temporal shielded would know and they would not get any form of recognition for their deeds but I assume everyone on board is aware of that.
It doesn't. Nobody ever said it does. That's also, like, the point of the episode. The time ship does not time travel, it exists outside of the timestream. Annorax and his crew build the ship in the 22nd century. They encountered Voyager in the 24th and didn't age. That's the only way you could "time travel" with it. They still experience the time passed in personal real-time, however.
They still would have extinct species X. If you destroy a forest but plant another somewhere else as "reparation" you still destroyed the first forest. If you destroy the forest and in turn allow grassland fauna and flora to live there instead you still destroyed the forest.
Morality is subjective. If you ask me the Krynim never were "evil", Annorax was blinded with grief and obsessed but he was not evil. His actions were still wrong and the ironic twist of the wpisode is that all he wanted would have been accomplished by removing the weapon ship itself.
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I have an idea for what Season 11 should be; Season 11: The Big Bug Fix.
I have not been able to read my bug tickets in over a year, not even the tickets about not being able to see my tickets.
I find the drama of your signature proof of your immaturity, this means you, DR whiners.
This is true. However, it's still just a differently labaled "continue" button as nothing "we" say has any significance for the "movie" we watch. That's neither the writer's nor Cryptic's fault, that's just how the game works. But still.
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