I'm inclined to believe Bort saying that those are bugged is true.
However I DON'T believe he's only doing it to 'fix a bug'. Sorry, but that's just too oddly convenient. And if that picture above is anything to go on, that goes beyond 'fixing a few broken 12 hour DOFF missions'.
The reason this change is actually coming is very simple, because irregardless of whatever they say: It's all due to specializations.
Before DR, we stopped leveling at 50. But we kept right on gaining Expertise, but they didn't care because that was hardly used for squat. Bugged or not, even if they realized back then how much skill points you could get from these DOFF missions in question, they didn't care because all you might get is skill points and expertise, that's all, but still stopped at level 50.
Heck, even if specializations DIDN'T exist, I still doubt we'd actually see anything changed. If we stopped leveling at 60 only, the missions would probably still be left alone. Because at most you will stop at level 60 and that'd be all.
But we don't really stop leveling now. And since DR's been released, there's been time after time of XP nerfs and reductions in ANYTHING people have been doing. They've called it 'normalizing', but I've yet to see them actually BUFF most XP gains. Heck, if anything they've been intentionally putting in dil to justify slapping timers on stuff, in particular patrol missions, so that the XP gains from those can be slowed down accordingly, without outright 'nerfing' them again.
And now it's DOFFing's turn. The 'reason' they might give doesn't matter. Someone up high decided they don't like XP gains from it, so DOFFing is gonna get the hammer. Period.
Just to give some numbers, at level 60 you need about 160k XP (yes rounded for simplicity) to gain a spec point. Say, purely through DOFFing only, you earned an average of about 22,800 XP a day. Or basically enough so you'd earn one spec point a week purely through DOFFing.
So, say you were starting on a fresh, primary spec. That needs 30 points, right? Generally there are about 4 weeks in a month, so...30 divided by 4, or 7.5 months.
So, seven and a half months, going only in regards to DOFFing, to fill out ONE full primary spec of 30 points from empty to full, and apparently THAT is too fast for them? I can only dread what might be considered an 'acceptable' pace.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I'm inclined to believe Bort saying that those are bugged is true.
When there are certain assignments that stand out like a sore thumb compared to all the other assignments...it's pretty obvious that something is bugged. It's simple. It's straightforward.
Have they brutalized XP gain otherwise since the launch of DR in these past five plus months? Think it would be hard to find anybody that disagreed with that...but that doesn't change that certain assignments standing out like a sore thumb compared to the rest being bugged. It's simple. It's straightforward.
Who knows how many metrics Cryptic has looked at have led to the playerbase being screwed over because of folks exploiting bugs, eh? Cryptic has a tendency to do that...Tom sees something is going on and implements something to address that - Jerry finds a bug that was causing an issue...Tom and Jerry somehow never speak...both changes get implemented...players get screwed.
I think it would be a fantastic way to generate income from subs.
I'm currently racing to level a second character to 100 on lotro before the expansion Monday. The difference between vip exp and not makes it a completely different game. Imagine playing always with exp weekend here. How many people would subscribe?
"XP Bonus Weekend" *used* to be par for the course as far as normal, in-game XP goes. They've nerfed one thing after another for so long people forget/don't know that the bonus weekends were generally how the entire game was and it was really, really fun that way.
Yes, some people levelled fast. What does that matter in a game with no PvP and where high and low level characters can group up in most PvE?
The discrepancy was deliberate as I remember talking to Heretic about it in the early days of the doff system.
The additional rewards were put in to encourage a certain type of behavior (logging twice a day), with a clear best strategy.
All commendations had it apart from Recruitment (until dyson land came around). Now it is all messed up and will make spec point earning stop completely for all of my toons. which means pretty much game over.
ok, lying is a little harsh, it's possible if the nerfs were just ordered. more likely he just has it wrong.
I think I'd trust a current dev to know what the current intended behavior of a system is, especially since "The early days of the doff system" were years ago.
ah, boy, if you work at a company where people change seats over time, leave, etc ... visions of what the product should be like change, etc. I'm telling you anything can happen. if the original people who worked on doffing are gone, then the original vision and intent is most likely completely gone. and even if it's the same people, it can still be gone.
I remember back when I played wow, in one of the regular updates a single class was given an extra health bump. a not insignificant bump either. the devs explained it saying that the health scaling was off on this one class and it was built into right into the design of the class. it was there for some reason ... but no one had any clue as to why. the knowledge was simply ... gone, at that point.
ok, lying is a little harsh, it's possible if the nerfs were just ordered. more likely he just has it wrong.
I am inclined to think this too. And also they use this "bug fixing" thing as an escuse to swing the nerfhammer even more towards XP gains, as ordered.
Sure the Delta ones were bugged, but not the others, yet they putted them in the same pot. Supress gorn was balanced by its rarity (funny thing mister Rivera said he didnt like some assigments give less, rarity wise, yet here this is exactly what is nerfed) and by its high casualty risk. It can happen that all the doffs that took part in that assigment to be confined into sickbay for 16h, thus basicly making it last not 12h but 28h if you count the extra 16h where your doffs are been stucked, since you cant use them in that time.
Pretty much cements the fact you cannot trust these devs and they will lie through their teeth to implement another nerf with as little resistance as possible.
The numbers here STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB. The strike against is a 6 hour mission. The 12 hour mission should pay 2x as much or appx 2700 not 574. As I said this is a punitive nerf by someone furious that people were able to gain reasonable experience for the past 3 years for some of these. Since the numbers are clearly a bug they should be fixed immediately. Or are they now the correct floor for the future hammer?
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Even the best CM we ever had has weighed into the twitter 'debate'....
you must work for the media. i've never seen a worst misrepesentation of someone's post in my life. any idiot who read the conversation could see that branflakes was having fun with the idea of geko's post.
Wouldn't it be really sensible to look at DOFFing system holistically like it was designed? I mean there are a number of resolve/telekinesis/shroud assignments give out 10x the base dilithium. Why? Because of the resolve/telekinesis/shroud requirements.
So, gee, maybe Heretic designed an entire class of assignments to give out better XP, and why not make it simple and make it so that it is anything put in the 12 hour time class? That way you can deliberately put select assignments into that class that you want to offer more XP and balance them with rarity or other concerns. And then anything you don't want to give out lots of XP you put it in some other time class.
Anyone can take one look at the specialization xp and think someone added an extra 0 there without understanding the (bad) design behind it.
Obviously Cryptic has been overusing the 12 hour class. That is no reason to nerf it, though, you remove assignments from it that shouldn't be there while leave those that should be there.
Lets step back a moment as players and look at this from a gamemasters point of view
Will this encourage players to buy equipment like a borg warp engines to make doffing easier ?
Will this encourage players to Doff in the first place
Will this bring more players into Doffing
Will this encourage sales of ships that enhance doffing
Will this encourage players to aquire more Doffs to make the doffing system better for them
Will this encourage player to purchase more doffing slots
Will this encourage players to aquire any other equipment in the game to make Doffing easier more rewarding or more fun to the player
Is this change worth it overall , Does it add positive results my players will enjoy ? Is this hurting the design of my game enough to make this changes without positive increases to deflate any negative feedback
A sticky of these questions should be on the moniter of any gamemaster / Developer
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Is this change worth it overall , Does it add positive results my players will enjoy ? Is this hurting the design of my game enough to make this changes without positive increases to deflate any negative feedback
will most of the people playing the game even realize a change was made? nope.
there's 250 posts in this thread by 50 people. half of them are mad and the other half are ok with the change; and they just keep arguing back and forth. there's no consensus here.
the only truth in gaming is that every time something is changed in a game it pisses someone off and they'll run to the forum to scream on their soap box, no matter how big or small the change is.
will most of the people playing the game even realize a change was made? nope.
there's 250 posts in this thread by 50 people. half of them are mad and the other half are ok with the change; and they just keep arguing back and forth. there's no consensus here.
the only truth in gaming is that every time something is changed in a game it pisses someone off and they'll run to the forum to scream on their soap box, no matter how big or small the change is.
People playing this game don't even bother using the ingame chat and that is essential.
Also some of them will never touch the forum just because it feels to them like pissing in the wind.
Those 50 that do post certainly want to save whatever little there is to save from the pointless nerfbat.
Devs should not nerf things so rigorously without rebalancing it all even, or giving us something of equal value for our effort.
People playing this game don't even bother using the ingame chat and that is essential.
Also some of them will never touch the forum just because it feels to them like pissing in the wind.
Those 50 that do post certainly want to save whatever little there is to save from the pointless nerfbat.
Devs should not nerf things so rigorously without rebalancing it all even, or giving us something of equal value for our effort.
did you bother to read where i said those 50 posters are arguing back and forth? it's not 50 against, it's 25/25. in fact a quarter of the posts in this thread are made by just 2 people. big threads don't mean a lot of people have an issue. it's just a lot of words disagreeing with other words.
did you bother to read where i said those 50 posters are arguing back and forth? it's not 50 against, it's 25/25. in fact a quarter of the posts in this thread are made by just 2 people. big threads don't mean a lot of people have an issue. it's just a lot of words disagreeing with other words.
Considering that even the offical Site of the CDF & Gekos Twitter Account is "Infested" ... it obviously is "kind of a big deal"
and so posts the guy with the most posts in the thread. i think that was your 30th out of a 260 post thread. over 10% is all you, baby.
Congrats on missing/ignoring the point completely ... I'm not on STO Reddit btw ... just open your Eyes and figure it out yourself ... listen to various Channels like "Doffjobs" etc ... but sure it's probably just me & some other guy with multiple Account *Tinfoil-Hat*
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
did you bother to read where i said those 50 posters are arguing back and forth? it's not 50 against, it's 25/25. in fact a quarter of the posts in this thread are made by just 2 people. big threads don't mean a lot of people have an issue. it's just a lot of words disagreeing with other words.
You got me I dont read. I m here just for you. You are my everything.:D:o:o
That said I dont see anyone praising this nerf. Some care and some never did do doff missions at all so they dont care even if they remove it all together.
Congrats on missing/ignoring the point completely ... I'm not on STO Reddit btw
i didn't miss the point at all. you link to a thread with 86 posts in it in a thread with 260 posts in it. most of those people could be posting here. but let's say all 350 posts are by different people rather then 60 people, what percentage of the player base is 350 people? if there's 100k players it'd be 1/3 of 1%. if it's 200k players i think even you can do the math.
lots of noise doesn't mean lots of issues. it just means guys like you can post 30-40 times on a subject and make it seem like a big deal.
lots of noise doesn't mean lots of issues. it just means guys like you can post 30-40 times on a subject and make it seem like a big deal.
I guess "reading comprehension" isn't your thing ... or you're trying to make fun of yourself *Tinfoil-Hat* ...
... just open your Eyes and figure it out yourself ... listen to various Channels like "Doffjobs" etc ... but sure it's probably just me & some other guy with multiple Accounts *Tinfoil-Hat*
One more try, though ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
I guess "reading comprehension" isn't your thing ... or you're trying to make fun of yourself *Tinfoil-Hat* ...
One more try, though ...
and i'm going to try and say it again, since you don't want to think it through. 500 people complaining about something isn't a majority of the players. whether those 500 are complaining on the sto forum, reddit, or doffjobs, it's not a majority of the players. 50k people complaining about it would only be a majority if the game only had 99,999 players.
i've never been on a game forum where some one wasn't pissed off about some change. just because that person can get 100 others to agree with him doesn't mean he's in the majority.
260 posts here and 90 on reddit doesn't mean the hunreds of thousands of players playing sto give a rats TRIBBLE about what's pissed you off.
and i'm going to try and say it again, since you don't want to think it through. 500 people complaining about something isn't a majority of the players. whether those 500 are complaining on the sto forum, reddit, or doffjobs, it's not a majority of the players. 50k people complaining about it would only be a majority if the game only had 99,999 players.
i've never been on a game forum where some one wasn't pissed off about some change. just because that person can get 100 others to agree with him doesn't mean he's in the majority.
260 posts here and 90 on reddit doesn't mean the hunreds of thousands of players playing sto give a rats TRIBBLE about what's pissed you off.
This old nonsense again ... it's called Statistics ... if 500 people are complaining it probably means/represents more, than one guy complaining about missing costume options for Talaxians ...
Seriously what would you expect ... let's say there are 100k "active players" ... so it's only a "major issue" if 50k are coming to the Forums to "complain" !? .... get real ... pretty sure we already had several "major issues" without 50k complainers ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
I just noticed another problem aside from Doff XP nerfing...namely all the Doff assignments to acquire the rare commodities that are integral to countless other Doff assignments are missing or have been removed... the ones to get stuff like Bajoran Bateret Incense, Ferasan Nepata Leaves, Shapeshifting Lockets, Jevonite, Tulaberries, etc..... at least so far as I can tell anyway.
You got me I dont read. I m here just for you. You are my everything.:D:o:o
That said I dont see anyone praising this nerf. Some care and some never did do doff missions at all so they dont care even if they remove it all together.
Honestly, I'd be more inclined to care if not for the fact that it's apparently a small piece of a bigger revamp. If this leads to doff missions having some sort of logic to their rewards, GREAT! It's kinda random right now.
or maybe it's sampling bias.... and at this point... what 500 people? There's not even 500 posts on the subject.
Didn't come up with the number (just a response) ... but if you're actually playing the game, you'll see "a lot of noise" ... STOReddit, STO Forums, Gekos Twitter, Doffjobs Channel, Zone Chat, TTS Channel etc etc ...
=> "just a few people" & "nodody really cares" doesn't quite cut it ...
i.E : I've seen several people who (supposedly) quit Doffjobs today, because they couldn't take all the "complaining" ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
Comments
However I DON'T believe he's only doing it to 'fix a bug'. Sorry, but that's just too oddly convenient. And if that picture above is anything to go on, that goes beyond 'fixing a few broken 12 hour DOFF missions'.
The reason this change is actually coming is very simple, because irregardless of whatever they say: It's all due to specializations.
Before DR, we stopped leveling at 50. But we kept right on gaining Expertise, but they didn't care because that was hardly used for squat. Bugged or not, even if they realized back then how much skill points you could get from these DOFF missions in question, they didn't care because all you might get is skill points and expertise, that's all, but still stopped at level 50.
Heck, even if specializations DIDN'T exist, I still doubt we'd actually see anything changed. If we stopped leveling at 60 only, the missions would probably still be left alone. Because at most you will stop at level 60 and that'd be all.
But we don't really stop leveling now. And since DR's been released, there's been time after time of XP nerfs and reductions in ANYTHING people have been doing. They've called it 'normalizing', but I've yet to see them actually BUFF most XP gains. Heck, if anything they've been intentionally putting in dil to justify slapping timers on stuff, in particular patrol missions, so that the XP gains from those can be slowed down accordingly, without outright 'nerfing' them again.
And now it's DOFFing's turn. The 'reason' they might give doesn't matter. Someone up high decided they don't like XP gains from it, so DOFFing is gonna get the hammer. Period.
Just to give some numbers, at level 60 you need about 160k XP (yes rounded for simplicity) to gain a spec point. Say, purely through DOFFing only, you earned an average of about 22,800 XP a day. Or basically enough so you'd earn one spec point a week purely through DOFFing.
So, say you were starting on a fresh, primary spec. That needs 30 points, right? Generally there are about 4 weeks in a month, so...30 divided by 4, or 7.5 months.
So, seven and a half months, going only in regards to DOFFing, to fill out ONE full primary spec of 30 points from empty to full, and apparently THAT is too fast for them? I can only dread what might be considered an 'acceptable' pace.
When there are certain assignments that stand out like a sore thumb compared to all the other assignments...it's pretty obvious that something is bugged. It's simple. It's straightforward.
Have they brutalized XP gain otherwise since the launch of DR in these past five plus months? Think it would be hard to find anybody that disagreed with that...but that doesn't change that certain assignments standing out like a sore thumb compared to the rest being bugged. It's simple. It's straightforward.
Who knows how many metrics Cryptic has looked at have led to the playerbase being screwed over because of folks exploiting bugs, eh? Cryptic has a tendency to do that...Tom sees something is going on and implements something to address that - Jerry finds a bug that was causing an issue...Tom and Jerry somehow never speak...both changes get implemented...players get screwed.
...#LLAP...
"XP Bonus Weekend" *used* to be par for the course as far as normal, in-game XP goes. They've nerfed one thing after another for so long people forget/don't know that the bonus weekends were generally how the entire game was and it was really, really fun that way.
Yes, some people levelled fast. What does that matter in a game with no PvP and where high and low level characters can group up in most PvE?
ok, lying is a little harsh, it's possible if the nerfs were just ordered. more likely he just has it wrong.
ah, boy, if you work at a company where people change seats over time, leave, etc ... visions of what the product should be like change, etc. I'm telling you anything can happen. if the original people who worked on doffing are gone, then the original vision and intent is most likely completely gone. and even if it's the same people, it can still be gone.
I remember back when I played wow, in one of the regular updates a single class was given an extra health bump. a not insignificant bump either. the devs explained it saying that the health scaling was off on this one class and it was built into right into the design of the class. it was there for some reason ... but no one had any clue as to why. the knowledge was simply ... gone, at that point.
I am inclined to think this too. And also they use this "bug fixing" thing as an escuse to swing the nerfhammer even more towards XP gains, as ordered.
Sure the Delta ones were bugged, but not the others, yet they putted them in the same pot. Supress gorn was balanced by its rarity (funny thing mister Rivera said he didnt like some assigments give less, rarity wise, yet here this is exactly what is nerfed) and by its high casualty risk. It can happen that all the doffs that took part in that assigment to be confined into sickbay for 16h, thus basicly making it last not 12h but 28h if you count the extra 16h where your doffs are been stucked, since you cant use them in that time.
Link plz ?!
Pretty much cements the fact you cannot trust these devs and they will lie through their teeth to implement another nerf with as little resistance as possible.
Wow... no kidding!:(
The numbers here STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB. The strike against is a 6 hour mission. The 12 hour mission should pay 2x as much or appx 2700 not 574. As I said this is a punitive nerf by someone furious that people were able to gain reasonable experience for the past 3 years for some of these. Since the numbers are clearly a bug they should be fixed immediately. Or are they now the correct floor for the future hammer?
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
So, gee, maybe Heretic designed an entire class of assignments to give out better XP, and why not make it simple and make it so that it is anything put in the 12 hour time class? That way you can deliberately put select assignments into that class that you want to offer more XP and balance them with rarity or other concerns. And then anything you don't want to give out lots of XP you put it in some other time class.
Anyone can take one look at the specialization xp and think someone added an extra 0 there without understanding the (bad) design behind it.
Obviously Cryptic has been overusing the 12 hour class. That is no reason to nerf it, though, you remove assignments from it that shouldn't be there while leave those that should be there.
Will this encourage players to buy equipment like a borg warp engines to make doffing easier ?
Will this encourage players to Doff in the first place
Will this bring more players into Doffing
Will this encourage sales of ships that enhance doffing
Will this encourage players to aquire more Doffs to make the doffing system better for them
Will this encourage player to purchase more doffing slots
Will this encourage players to aquire any other equipment in the game to make Doffing easier more rewarding or more fun to the player
Is this change worth it overall , Does it add positive results my players will enjoy ? Is this hurting the design of my game enough to make this changes without positive increases to deflate any negative feedback
A sticky of these questions should be on the moniter of any gamemaster / Developer
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
there's 250 posts in this thread by 50 people. half of them are mad and the other half are ok with the change; and they just keep arguing back and forth. there's no consensus here.
the only truth in gaming is that every time something is changed in a game it pisses someone off and they'll run to the forum to scream on their soap box, no matter how big or small the change is.
People playing this game don't even bother using the ingame chat and that is essential.
Also some of them will never touch the forum just because it feels to them like pissing in the wind.
Those 50 that do post certainly want to save whatever little there is to save from the pointless nerfbat.
Devs should not nerf things so rigorously without rebalancing it all even, or giving us something of equal value for our effort.
Considering that even the offical Site of the CDF & Gekos Twitter Account is "Infested" ... it obviously is "kind of a big deal"
https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/34ox5q/devs_its_not_the_doff_xp_thats_the_problem_its/
Congrats on missing/ignoring the point completely ... I'm not on STO Reddit btw ... just open your Eyes and figure it out yourself ... listen to various Channels like "Doffjobs" etc ... but sure it's probably just me & some other guy with multiple Account *Tinfoil-Hat*
You got me I dont read. I m here just for you. You are my everything.:D:o:o
That said I dont see anyone praising this nerf. Some care and some never did do doff missions at all so they dont care even if they remove it all together.
lots of noise doesn't mean lots of issues. it just means guys like you can post 30-40 times on a subject and make it seem like a big deal.
I guess "reading comprehension" isn't your thing ... or you're trying to make fun of yourself *Tinfoil-Hat* ...
One more try, though ...
i've never been on a game forum where some one wasn't pissed off about some change. just because that person can get 100 others to agree with him doesn't mean he's in the majority.
260 posts here and 90 on reddit doesn't mean the hunreds of thousands of players playing sto give a rats TRIBBLE about what's pissed you off.
This old nonsense again ... it's called Statistics ... if 500 people are complaining it probably means/represents more, than one guy complaining about missing costume options for Talaxians ...
Seriously what would you expect ... let's say there are 100k "active players" ... so it's only a "major issue" if 50k are coming to the Forums to "complain" !? .... get real ... pretty sure we already had several "major issues" without 50k complainers ...
My character Tsin'xing
Didn't come up with the number (just a response) ... but if you're actually playing the game, you'll see "a lot of noise" ... STOReddit, STO Forums, Gekos Twitter, Doffjobs Channel, Zone Chat, TTS Channel etc etc ...
=> "just a few people" & "nodody really cares" doesn't quite cut it ...
i.E : I've seen several people who (supposedly) quit Doffjobs today, because they couldn't take all the "complaining" ...
How do you know it had "excess words salad" in it if you didn't read it?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008